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Apple accused of short-shrifting disabled retail shoppers - Page 2

post #41 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasper View Post

Not really, as neither of the women could reach the elevator buttons on their own, according to the complaint.

K

Shouldn't the permitting process prevent such a situation?

Although the City of SF should be sued for signing off the permit, I doubt they've as much ka-ching as Apple.
post #42 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeonit View Post

the genius bar should have a little section with a lower desk so the mac genius can sit down and get on the same eye level as the handicapped person. that would be a good solution.

as with the desks i always thought they're low enough to be accessible by wheelchair. if that's not the case another solution or height has to be implemented.

I agree with both of these points 100%. Steve's store designers should have thought of this beforehand.

Also, it's just good business to make retail stores more approachable to more people. I'm sure once The Steve is made aware of this, they'll retrofit whatever they need to.

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post #43 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeytheperson View Post

A total waste of important government resources, time, space, etc. My guess is it is two women who are probably in wheelchairs because they ate themselves into obesity, and have nothing better to do with their time. People who are truly handicapped adapt themselves to this unfair place we know as the real world.

What government resources are you referring to? I could easily recall dozens of taxpayer-wasting court cases that rate much lower on the Importance Meter.

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post #44 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

...letting either of them return to the Stockton Street outlet as equals to their fellow customers.

That's the whole problem with these complaints, and handicap laws in general. People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet. Of course, someone in a wheelchair has the same political rights as anyone else, but they clearly DO NO have equal physical skills or abilities as someone who can walk, and it's not reasonable to expect an entire society to re-engineer itself to give a tiny minority the exact same access as people who aren't handicapped.

It sounds to me like these women want the world to revolve around them, instead of doing reasonable work given that they're the ones in the tiny minority. Can't reach an elevator button? Instead of asking for the elevator to be redesigned, how about asking any customer or store employee to push the button for you. Need to tell the staff that you're there for your appointment? Then raise your hand, and say in a clear voice: "Excuse me, I need to check in."

It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves, but expected Apple to simply anticipate their every specialized need. Also, It didn't sound like they ever spoke to a store manager, who could have addressed a lot of their issues. Perhaps they felt they shouldn't have to...
post #45 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

That's the whole problem with these complaints, and handicap laws in general. People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet. Of course, someone in a wheelchair has the same political rights as anyone else, but they clearly DO NO have equal physical skills or abilities as someone who can walk, and it's not reasonable to expect an entire society to re-engineer itself to give a tiny minority the exact same access as people who aren't handicapped.

It sounds to me like these women want the world to revolve around them, instead of doing reasonable work given that they're the ones in the tiny minority. Can't reach an elevator button? Instead of asking for the elevator to be redesigned, how about asking any customer or store employee to push the button for you. Need to tell the staff that you're there for your appointment? Then raise your hand, and say in a clear voice: "Excuse me, I need to check in."

It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves, but expected Apple to simply anticipate their every specialized need. Also, It didn't sound like they ever spoke to a store manager, who could have addressed a lot of their issues. Perhaps they felt they shouldn't have to...

Amazing.

"People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet."
- So only people with your particular set of advantages deserve access to the societal resources available to everyone else?

" Of course, someone in a wheelchair has the same political rights as anyone else"
- oh my... how magnanimous of you.

"it's not reasonable to expect an entire society to re-engineer itself to give a tiny minority the exact same access as people who aren't handicapped. "
- sorry, but that's EXACTLY what society is for... to level the playing field

"It sounds to me like these women want the world to revolve around them,'
- unlike you, who only wants it to revolve around those who already have it made. Fairness, after all is so inconvenient.

"how about asking any customer or store employee to push the button for you.."
- yes, we should make sure we remind people who've already had their life made inconceivably hard that they must grovel for scraps.

"It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves"
- you have absolutely no way of knowing that. Common experience for the disabled indicates exactly the opposite.

This is ridiculous.
I won't point out the absolute lack of a soul you and your truly whining compatriots on this thread are showing to the world, but I ask you one favor.
Please print out and save this thread somewhere, and at some time in the future, when your now-perfect body starts betraying you (as it inevitably will), and look back on how little you understood about 'this real world'
post #46 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

You got to be kidding? Regardless of HOW they got in their conditions they are disabled and deserve the respect of any other customer. Sound like a bigot to me.

What they chopped their own legs off to get disability payments?
Do I still have to respect them?

I think they sound like opportunistic, lawsuit-happy hucksters, who just happen to be in wheel chairs.
post #47 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

"It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves"
- you have absolutely no way of knowing that. Common experience for the disabled indicates exactly the opposite.

This is ridiculous.
I won't point out the absolute lack of a soul you and your truly whining compatriots on this thread are showing to the world, but I ask you one favor.
Please print out and save this thread somewhere, and at some time in the future, when your now-perfect body starts betraying you (as it inevitably will), and look back on how little you understood about 'this real world'

Respect goes both ways.
Had these women handled the situation in an appropriate way, I'm sure they would have been accommodated.
If you read the article you would see that this lawsuit was based on two trips and neither woman spoke to a manager.
post #48 of 110
I apologize for getting off on another tangent but this disability lawsuit thing is very problematic because disabilities defined by the ADA are so broad as to include mental and sensory disabilities as well.

Most people don't realize that there are over 500,000 blind people in the US and very little is done in corporate environments to accommodate their needs. For example, the iPhone can never be legally adopted as a corporate communication device because it cannot be operated by blind people. Other mobile devices with "Talk" installed are quite usable since they usually have fixed buttons that the user can feel and speaker phone capabilities.

So where ever a lawyer can find a loop hole, you will probably find a lawsuit. That's just the way lawyers are.

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post #49 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Amazing.

"People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet."
- So only people with your particular set of advantages deserve access to the societal resources available to everyone else?

" Of course, someone in a wheelchair has the same political rights as anyone else"
- oh my... how magnanimous of you.

"it's not reasonable to expect an entire society to re-engineer itself to give a tiny minority the exact same access as people who aren't handicapped. "
- sorry, but that's EXACTLY what society is for... to level the playing field

"It sounds to me like these women want the world to revolve around them,'
- unlike you, who only wants it to revolve around those who already have it made. Fairness, after all is so inconvenient.

"how about asking any customer or store employee to push the button for you.."
- yes, we should make sure we remind people who've already had their life made inconceivably hard that they must grovel for scraps.

"It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves"
- you have absolutely no way of knowing that. Common experience for the disabled indicates exactly the opposite.

This is ridiculous.
I won't point out the absolute lack of a soul you and your truly whining compatriots on this thread are showing to the world, but I ask you one favor.
Please print out and save this thread somewhere, and at some time in the future, when your now-perfect body starts betraying you (as it inevitably will), and look back on how little you understood about 'this real world'

Blah blah blah. Your whole dumb argument could be summed up with your inane statement that society is primarily here to "level the playing field." Since when? Maybe in your own Communist-Pinko little fantasy-land, but not here in America, and not in the vast majority of other countries as well. Society is here to provide for common defense, and for **getting ahead** by mutual collaboration. Humans didn't form societies with the primary goal of elevating the poor, the sick, the lazy, what have you. Those people can often be helped by great societies, but putting the less-capable people on the same even ground as the more capable people has never been "Job One" so to speak. If you disagree, then name a few societies that have been organized around your principal? The Egyptian? The Greek? The Etruscan? The Roman? The Han? The Carolingian? The Aztec? The Mayan? The Ming? The Zulu? The various French Republics? The Ottoman? The Mongol? The English? The German? The American? Please name them.

Speaking of America in particular, here's the preamble to our Constitution:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I don't think you could look at that and derive that a small minority of wheel-chair bound people must have equal physical access to all that non-handicapped people enjoy, regardless of expense.
post #50 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

I don't think you could look at that and derive that a small minority of wheel-chair bound people must have equal physical access to all that non-handicapped people enjoy, regardless of expense.

Without the disability act and handicapped parking spaces, where would arrogant people park their luxury cars displaying no placards?

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post #51 of 110
Having been to the store many times, even for non-disabled people, it's a challenge getting around due to the sheer crowdedness of the place, and I've always had to fish for an Apple Store employee to help me after as long as 10 minutes of waiting around. Its clearly understaffed. It's also a bit hard to locate the elevator in question, especially with the height disadvantages and the crowds in question.

Maybe I'll take low-height pics next time I go there with my iPhone just for a little curiosity.

That said, if the employee had to disconnect the credit card scanner to bring it out, I wonder why one of the employees couldn't just be handed the credit card, or use one of the quick buy portable scanners they have on hand. ....probably because they were too busy helping other customers.
post #52 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

Blah blah blah.

Speaking of America in particular, here's the preamble to our Constitution:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Good god... you didn't even read your own post.
"Promote the general welfare".
But that part always gets ignored, doesn't it? Maybe it only means the welfare of the 'haves'.

But I've said my piece. As I said... at some point you'll get why we watch each other's back. It doesn't occur to Randian types that their 'success' was to an enormous degree due to luck of the draw. FIGMO, huh?

Too bad all of those various minority types make it so hard for those of us who already have.
post #53 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Without the disability act and handicapped parking spaces, where would arrogant people park their luxury cars displaying no placards?

I happen to think handicapped parking spaces are a great idea, and a perfect example of what society can do--within reason--to make life easier for even a tiny minority of its citizens.

Designing complex retail operations so that every last thing is easily accessible to someone sitting in a chair is not reasonable, on the other hand.
post #54 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

That's the whole problem with these complaints, and handicap laws in general. People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet. Of course, someone in a wheelchair has the same political rights as anyone else, but they clearly DO NO have equal physical skills or abilities as someone who can walk, and it's not reasonable to expect an entire society to re-engineer itself to give a tiny minority the exact same access as people who aren't handicapped.

It sounds to me like these women want the world to revolve around them, instead of doing reasonable work given that they're the ones in the tiny minority. Can't reach an elevator button? Instead of asking for the elevator to be redesigned, how about asking any customer or store employee to push the button for you. Need to tell the staff that you're there for your appointment? Then raise your hand, and say in a clear voice: "Excuse me, I need to check in."

It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves, but expected Apple to simply anticipate their every specialized need. Also, It didn't sound like they ever spoke to a store manager, who could have addressed a lot of their issues. Perhaps they felt they shouldn't have to...

Maybe they expect a little common courtesy? If you run a store and want to sell stuff, you'd expect someone to actually help sell you stuff?

Like a couple of other people mentioned in this thread, there seems to be alot of assumptions made in this thread. Who cares how they got in a wheelchair! It's not our role to judge and it doesn't matter in this case. Maybe they're victims of 9/11 or east coast quake. Maybe they're war vets. Would that change your thinking?

Why aren't elevator buttons at the correct height? This is a brand new store. Why didn't some customer offer to help them find something? It looks to me like they just need to have procedures reviewed in some cases.
post #55 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

What they chopped their own legs off to get disability payments?
Do I still have to respect them?

I think they sound like opportunistic, lawsuit-happy hucksters, who just happen to be in wheel chairs.

Even the most opportunistic person out there would not chop off their own legs just to get a disability check.

Also, the statement comes from a lawyer, so don't mistake what they would say versus their lawyer's statement.

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post #56 of 110
I am disabled, and Apple has ALWAYS helped me when needed at their stores. They have walked across a large mall to help load my purchases in my car and always treated me with respect.

First Class company has far as I am concerned in their attitute toward the Disabled!

Thanks,
Alan
alanpgh@gmail.com

P.S. - Apple is welcome to contact me about this if I can be helpful to them.
post #57 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

Good god... you didn't even read your own post.
"Promote the general welfare".
But that part always gets ignored, doesn't it? Maybe it only means the welfare of the 'haves'.

No, I read my post, but clearly you didn't read your dictionary. What's the definition of "general", GQB? Take a look at your Dashboard dictionary, and you'll see:

"Affecting or concerning all or most people, places or things. Widespread.....true for all or most cases....Considering or including the main features or elements of something, and disregarding exceptions overall."

You could not possibly argue that accommodating the needs/demands of these women falls under "general welfare" in a country that consists of more than 300 million people, the vast vast majority of whom can walk.
post #58 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanpgh@gmail.com View Post

I am disabled, and Apple has ALWAYS helped me when needed at their stores. They have walked across a large mall to help load my purchases in my car and always treated me with respect.

First Class company has far as I am concerned in their attitute toward the Disabled!

Thanks,
Alan
alanpgh@gmail.com

P.S. - Apple is welcome to contact me about this if I can be helpful to them.

By any chance, are your experiences gained by less busy Apple Stores? The San Francisco Stockton one is huge, and if I remember correctly, this is where Steve Jobs announced the iPod Shuffle and Mac Mini back in 2005. While I don't believe for a second that Apple is anti-disabled, it is just about fact that the Stockton location isn't very disabled friendly.

For any San Francisco people, I recommend they just visit the Stonestown location for all their Apple Store needs.
post #59 of 110
My wife is a physical therapist and has worked with people in wheel chairs for 40+ years. Then she was diagnosed with leukemia and is now on a 14 month chemo treatment plan. After the first two the muscles in her legs were shot and a wheel chair was needed for her to go anywhere. To be fair, you could take any pro athlete in top shape and after those first two treatments they wold also be in a wheelchair - it's part of the side effects of the poisons (sorry, chemo drugs) they use.

Depending on where she is on the treatment plan (today finishing up #6 of 10 rounds) she is walking somewhat normally, using a cain or a wheelchair. Fortunately she's near normal this month.

For her, and a great many others, the ADA has been a blessing. It has been abused by lawyers looking for some fast cash, but the basic concept of reasonable accommodation is important in this country - or any other.

In Apple's case I'm assuming that staff training focused on the technical side, with little or no attention paid to the staff's side of reasonable accommodation. That's assuming that the stores were not so busy that everyone had to wait for service. I would assume that Apple will be adding some training in the area of helping the handicapped if there is any validity to these suits.

By the way, for those that think "handicapped" is a crock, understand that you are nor immune to joining the ranks. With leukemia it only takes ONE white cell to fully mature and you are off to the races. A drunk driver can add you to this population in a flash, as can a wide range of other situations.

In other words, grow up, be very grateful you are not in a wheel chair and have a bit of understanding (if possible) for those that are.
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post #60 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

Blah blah blah. Your whole dumb argument could be summed up with your inane statement that society is primarily here to "level the playing field." Since when? Maybe in your own Communist-Pinko little fantasy-land, but not here in America, and not in the vast majority of other countries as well. Society is here to provide for common defense, and for **getting ahead** by mutual collaboration. Humans didn't form societies with the primary goal of elevating the poor, the sick, the lazy, what have you. Those people can often be helped by great societies, but putting the less-capable people on the same even ground as the more capable people has never been "Job One" so to speak. If you disagree, then name a few societies that have been organized around your principal? The Egyptian? The Greek? The Etruscan? The Roman? The Han? The Carolingian? The Aztec? The Mayan? The Ming? The Zulu? The various French Republics? The Ottoman? The Mongol? The English? The German? The American? Please name them.

Speaking of America in particular, here's the preamble to our Constitution:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I don't think you could look at that and derive that a small minority of wheel-chair bound people must have equal physical access to all that non-handicapped people enjoy, regardless of expense.

Society in my opinion is ever changing and there has to be a balancing act of weighing one groups needs within the whole. This is what a civil society does. When tipped too far in one direction we all will suffer. One incident in New York City back in the late 90's involved a company installing public pay toilets (kiosk) throughout Manhattan's busiest neighborhoods. This was a great idea since if you live here or have visited you will find it is impossible to find a restroom unless you are in a large store or restaurant. The Kiosk were put in place and seemed to be welcomed by everyone until a group advocating people with disabilities rights sued because there were two separate kiosk at each location one for the disabled and one for the general public. The suit demanded that all kiosk should be converted to disabled friendly. Even though for every standard kiosk a wheelchair accessible kiosk stood next to it. The company that had provided the kiosk backed out of the contract with the city and pulled the kiosk off the streets. This is an extreme case but it does show the real world financial limits on a good idea.
post #61 of 110
Sounds to me like some VERY important changes that need to be made--and should have been in the first place.

It's easy to say Apple is always right in all things. But these are mistakes to be corrected.

For the people who say "why should Apple bother?"--I hope you never end up needing a wheelchair.

Fear not: Apple will survive having to make these changes.
post #62 of 110
You'll see more and more of this sort of thing in the US as our huge 'glut' of baby boomers continues
to age. You'll see more easy-to-open and easy-to-grip containers and products, easier access for
persons who are less-mobile, etc. Within the next 20-30 years, persons with mobility limitations
will start to almost seem to be the majority in some areas.

When larger groups demand special considerations (shorter counters, etc.), businesses will
answer, or they risk losing sales. It's that simple.

Today, however, those asking are a small minority, and don't often talk to the manager,
as has been pointed out.
Journalism is publishing what someone doesn't want us to know; the rest is propaganda.
-Horacio Verbitsky (el perro), journalist (b. 1942)
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Journalism is publishing what someone doesn't want us to know; the rest is propaganda.
-Horacio Verbitsky (el perro), journalist (b. 1942)
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post #63 of 110
It's also important to note that this store is in San Francisco, one of the most tolerant places in the country, not just in terms of sexual orientation, religion or lifestyle, but in terms of disabilities. These women are probably used to be well treated at just about every other public facility or business they ever have to visit in the Bay Area. The Apple Store is sticking out like a sore thumb here.
post #64 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post


You could not possibly argue that accommodating the needs/demands of these women falls under "general welfare" in a country that consists of more than 300 million people, the vast vast majority of whom can walk.

Of course I can argue that. Anyone fortunate enough to live past, say, 70, will have a laundry list of disabilities that require the more well off to accommodate them. The point is that just because you're lucky enough to be doing well now doesn't mean that its not in your self interest (if that's all that motivates you) to make sure that everyone has equal access.

Its akin to the argument that 'forcing' everyone (young as well as old) to chip in on 'general' health care somehow is stealing from the young and healthy. Other than the immortalist ignorance of the young who's injuries tend to be worse than others, the whole idea is to spread the risk, spread the cost.

Same here. You accommodate everyone you can, if not for the basic morality of it, then because you're likely to need it yourself someday.

But what bothers me most is the smug superiority of the 'just deal with it' crowd. Pretty sickening.
post #65 of 110
I use a wheelchair (and crutches, sometimes) and have been in the Apple stores in both Everett and Bellevue, WA, and have never had any problems. I agree that if you're having the type of difficulties described in the lawsuit, you should simply contact the manager.

I was once in a Fred Meyer store in Bothell, WA, and couldn't reach the dress shirts because the aisles were too narrow for the store's electric cart. I informed the manager. "Sorry," he replied, walking off. When I returned to the customer service counter, I found that someone had removed the crutches I had left there. The store manager refused to open the pharmacy (this was at about 8 p.m.) so I could buy a pair of crutches from him -- or even help me out to my car.

I drove the electric cart out to my car, drove across the street to a Walgreens, crawled to the back of my car to retrieve my wheelchair, went inside, and bought some crutches.

Now, there's a company (Fred Meyer) that needs to be sued for ignoring the rights of people with disabilities.
post #66 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafe View Post

You'll see more and more of this sort of thing in the US as our huge 'glut' of baby boomers continues
to age. You'll see more easy-to-open and easy-to-grip containers and products, easier access for
persons who are less-mobile, etc. Within the next 20-30 years, persons with mobility limitations
will start to almost seem to be the majority in some areas.

What's really fascinating is the degree to which we grudgingly make these accommodations, and then realize that the change was an improvement for everyone!

Who hasn't found curb cut outs useful, whether for pushing/pulling a cart or for a bike or even skateboard?

The design elements being used on senior housing are rapidly making there way into standard design.
My favorite: Doorknobs. Originally designed using clockmakers' tecnology because its what they had easily available. Accessibility design always replaces those for levered door handles. And guess what? Levers really useful for EVERYONE. (i.e. 'generally' better.

When we get past the 'us vs. them' mentality, things just go so much better.
post #67 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

"People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet."
- So only people with your particular set of advantages deserve access to the societal resources available to everyone else?

Or you could think of it the other way: people with disadvantages when compared to the other members of the society require more resources while not necessarily producing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

"it's not reasonable to expect an entire society to re-engineer itself to give a tiny minority the exact same access as people who aren't handicapped. "
- sorry, but that's EXACTLY what society is for... to level the playing field

No, society is a group formed to benefit its members or further a common cause, NOT to "level the playing field" within the group. Please don't redefine terms to suit your own purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

"It sounds to me like these women want the world to revolve around them,'
- unlike you, who only wants it to revolve around those who already have it made. Fairness, after all is so inconvenient.

How about this for fair: forcing shop owners to spend their time and money to make their shops accessible to a small group of customers when they don't believe they can realize a profit on that investment? Are the wheelchair bound customers going to pay extra to help the shop owner recoup the cost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

"how about asking any customer or store employee to push the button for you.."
- yes, we should make sure we remind people who've already had their life made inconceivably hard that they must grovel for scraps.

Or how about handicapped people coming to grips with the fact that they are less able to do certain tasks and that asking for help is not a sin. Perhaps the handicap person doesn't want to be a burden by asking for help, but then again, suing a place of business over handicap access isn't a very good way to forget their woes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

"It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves"
- you have absolutely no way of knowing that. Common experience for the disabled indicates exactly the opposite.

The values of our society suggest that we would revile anybody that refused a reasonable request for help from a handicapped person. Could you describe how the scenario of an Apple employee refusing a request for help from a handicapped person plays out in your mind? You must imagine one one cold hearted bastard of an Apple employee to refuse to push a button for a wheelchair-bound person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

This is ridiculous.
I won't point out the absolute lack of a soul you and your truly whining compatriots on this thread are showing to the world, but I ask you one favor.
Please print out and save this thread somewhere, and at some time in the future, when your now-perfect body starts betraying you (as it inevitably will), and look back on how little you understood about 'this real world'

Yes, most of us will grow old. But I hope that we will be willing to accept our limitations, rather than becoming distressed and blaming others for our inability. Sometimes you just have to tell the old guy that it wasn't the Cadillac's fault that he just mowed down a crowd of people, just like sometimes you have to tell an angry handicapped person that society isn't to blame for their inability to push an elevator button.
post #68 of 110
Well responded. I disagree, but at least I'm not getting the 'screw the leeches' attitude apparent in other posts.

But the common thread throughout each of your rebuttals boils down to "the worth of a person is only proportional to their ability to produce wealth/goods", and anything that inconveniences anyone else (particularly the ownership class) is defacto 'theft'. (i used to be a Randist, so I know all the catch phrases.)

Your other common theme is that being able to function with impairments is a gift generously bestowed by those of us of the 'perfect' mold, for which the disabled should bow and be grateful. How arrogant.

BTW, Apple is not a 'small shop', so don't try to hide behind that ruse.
post #69 of 110
My mom is disabled (and a senior) and my brother is a lawyer. I'm going to have to tell them about this new racket of shaking down companies because you're not happy with your life. I mean, we have to battle injustice at ever turn.

The facts of this complaint belie it's claims. They claim they couldn't get any help but the employee crawled under the counter and untangled wires to make sure they were served. Oh, but that was embarrassing. Boo Hoo.

The tech fixed their computer but not perfectly and they had to come back to the store. Gee. I bet that never happened to a non-disabled person.

And some things on the shelves were unreachable by them. My wife is only 5' 2". I wonder if she can't reach certain things and can sue. I mean, being short is a disability these days, isn't it?

My poor mother has to bring a family member when she goes to Target to buy Depends because she can't reach them. If a family member isn't along she may even have to ask a worker for help. OMG! That worker now knows she's disabled and can't hold her water! How embarrassing!! Target owes her MILLIONS!! And my brother has to get his cut, too! He has student loans to pay off.

I can't wait to tell them about this case because we're going to be rich, it tell you, RICH! Oh, I mean we're going to fight to overcome this grave injustice and stand up for the disadvantaged. It has nothing to do with the money. It's about equality and OUR RIGHTS!
post #70 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

That's the whole problem with these complaints, and handicap laws in general. People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet. Of course, someone in a wheelchair has the same political rights as anyone else, but they clearly DO NO have equal physical skills or abilities as someone who can walk, and it's not reasonable to expect an entire society to re-engineer itself to give a tiny minority the exact same access as people who aren't handicapped.

It sounds to me like these women want the world to revolve around them, instead of doing reasonable work given that they're the ones in the tiny minority. Can't reach an elevator button? Instead of asking for the elevator to be redesigned, how about asking any customer or store employee to push the button for you. Need to tell the staff that you're there for your appointment? Then raise your hand, and say in a clear voice: "Excuse me, I need to check in."

It didn't sound like these women did much to help themselves, but expected Apple to simply anticipate their every specialized need. Also, It didn't sound like they ever spoke to a store manager, who could have addressed a lot of their issues. Perhaps they felt they shouldn't have to...

People in wheelchairs are NOT equals to people who can move on their own two feet?

K2Director is a sad, sick individual.

And as I pointed out in a previous post, it's not nearly as easy to get other people's help as you make it out to be.
post #71 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2director View Post

Humans didn't form societies with the primary goal of elevating the poor, the sick, the lazy, what have you. Those people can often be helped by great societies, but putting the less-capable people on the same even ground as the more capable people has never been "Job One" so to speak. If you disagree, then name a few societies that have been organized around your principal? The Egyptian? The Greek? The Etruscan? The Roman? The Han? The Carolingian? The Aztec? The Mayan? The Ming? The Zulu? The various French Republics? The Ottoman? The Mongol? The English? The German? The American? Please name them.

Actually in many of the above societies euthanasia would have been the cure of choice for those that could not carry their weight. \ - no pun intended!
OMG here we go again...
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OMG here we go again...
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post #72 of 110
I can't believe the debates going on here.

It can take a relatively long time to be assisted at the Apple Store in downtown S.F. for both disabled and non-disabled people. This isn't simply a matter of asking for help; you have to wade through the crowds, pray a worker doesn't find someone else to assist as you make your way to him or her and hope he or she has the right answers.

Whether or not Apple is violating any laws or moral codes here, the store is grossly understaffed, which magnifies the effect of the tall tables and hidden elevator with too high access buttons. Apple can either remodel the store to make it more friendly for wheelchair customers, hire more staff and be able to assist them faster, or do nothing and be the laughing stock of downtown S.F., an upscale neighborhood Apple shares with the likes of Neiman Marcus, Louis Vuitton, Blomingdales and dozens of other brand name shops notable for having excellent customer service.

If I were to make the choice, I'd simply remodel the Apple Store to be similar to the one in Ginza, Tokyo, Japan, which is 5 floors but dominated by an attractive-looking yet hugely practical elevator that often times has a worker in there pressing the buttons in typical fashion of legendary Japanese customer service. And hire more workers. But that might be too much to expect from Americans.
post #73 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by [COLOR="Navy"

smokeytheperson[/COLOR];1134418]Not a bigot, studied diversity intensively in college....

Right !
Listen people! I live in Europe and ,believe me,you just have to take a look at the USA a bit out of .. well the USA I'm talking about getting used to push the things excessively from one limit to the other .
Seriously , the picture speaks for itself ! .. there is a perfect place to go to .. suitable for handicapped .. and "have to go back and forth" WHAT to be seen C"MON !? ?!??! EVEN if there wasn't such a place , why a lawsuit against Apple !?? Apple sells machines .. no furniture .. it's not a construction office ...
It's horiible to be handicaped .. especialy when you need help, constantly ... but i guess you could ask,
post #74 of 110
so let me get this straight. I am expected to view monitors at knee level because perhaps, maybe, 1 in 100,000 customers might be in a wheelchair and feel discriminated against. Yawn.

I would like to propose that the root of the suit more likely the inability for one woman to promptly check out, and the fact the genius assigned to the other one, as it turned out, wasn't.

I am all for reasonable accommodation for the disabled, and as one myself I implore let's not go overboard (as usual). Knee jerk reactions result in disasters - witness recent public transit enhancements in which cites - all vying to be the best fried of the disabled, have created a system in which there is virtually no seating room for the able-bodied, but plenty of room just in case a wheelchair user should happen to want to travel in the vehicle some time.

Society have become a pandering, blithering bunch or morons all too ready to adopt the agendas of the misfortunate or special interest groups, despite common sense or the funding realities of the plan.

Being in a wheelchair is not easy. Make things as accommodating as possible within the context of real need. Does a business need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in case someone who has been unfortunately confined to a wheelchair might want to utilize a business? That should be left as a business' decision.
post #75 of 110
Thanks everyone, you have reminded me why i have vowed never to go to the USA for a holiday (vacation) again, Your country is full of fekin idiots.

* Stop bloody suing everybody, do you realise you look like greedy tw@ts to the rest of the word?

* Some of the comments on here are disgraceful, you should be bloody ashamed of yourselves, I really hope some of you end up in a wheelchair one day, i would love to see how you cope.

Have you any idea how this plays to the rest of the world? Ever wonder why so many countries in the world hate America? Land of the free my arse.
post #76 of 110
When I can't find a product in a store I often have to ask for help finding it or if they even stock it. This is completely unrealistic and they are specifically discriminating on my lack of knowledge.

I believe detailed maps of all stores should be available to people like me who are disadvantaged. I am too stuck up to request for help when needed.
post #77 of 110
It's called disabled because you're not 'able.'

Most people and businesses want to accommodate disabled persons but it's unreasonable to expect 100% accommodation especially at the increasing inconvenience of the majority.

And why is it hard to ask for help? Again, you're disabled. You need help. Just ask and someone will understand you need help and provide it.
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post #78 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb View Post

Thanks everyone, you have reminded me why i have vowed never to go to the USA for a holiday (vacation) again, Your country is full of fekin idiots.

* Stop bloody suing everybody, do you realise you look like greedy tw@ts to the rest of the word?

* Some of the comments on here are disgraceful, you should be bloody ashamed of yourselves, I really hope some of you end up in a wheelchair one day, i would love to see how you cope.

Have you any idea how this plays to the rest of the world? Ever wonder why so many countries in the world hate America? Land of the free my arse.

Glad to hear you won't be visiting any time soon. And I personally couldn't care less what the "rest of the world" thinks. In fact, if the rest of the world is criticizing the U.S., I generally take that as a sign that we're doing something right.

The "rest of the world" has been responsible for the vast majority of humanity's horrors and backwardness right up till the present day. Add up the U.S.'s good and bad contributions to the planet, and we've easily contributed more overall good to the world (not to mention our own citizenry) than any other nation in history. When the "rest of the world" starts to genuinely carry some of this heavy load, *then* I'll be interested in its opinions. Till then, bugger off, Mate.

P.S. Let the whining about U.S. arrogance begin!
post #79 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokeonit View Post

but from a wheelchair perspective things look very different and the worst is to have to ask for help.

The worst thing that can befall an American is not cancer, prison, or homicide, it is a moment of indignity. A country built on fragile self-esteem is pathetic.

Name a group that can supposedly "do what anyone else can," and you will find the source of the most pathetic whining, excuse-making, and hostility.

If the button can't be reached, you cordially ask the first person who walks by to push it for you. Seems simple enough, but no, it would be a moment of indignity. Only fully-abled males of European ancestry are supposed to suffer moments of indignity stoically. And then, in the vortex of political correctness, they are supposed to eat shit and die.
post #80 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

When we get past the 'us vs. them' mentality, things just go so much better.

"Us" aren't trying to use the coercive power of government to achieve what we want, "them" are. Once you adopt coercion to achieve your goals you cease to solicit cooperation. You are an adversary.

It's tangential, but I learned today that the local YMCA had instructed its summer camp counselors never to hug the kids. They were afraid of (the almost certain) lawsuit. I take my child to the park, but always politely refuse to help other kids who ask for help with something, like swinging or climbing the rings. If somebody else's kid is hurt, I'll stand aside until the parent arrives. If I'm in another country I behave as I wish: I hug kids and help them when they ask or need it.

The dirty secret about the helping and compassionate things that Americans have had rammed down their throats by government is that it has made the people cold and remote. It has produced suspicion and insensitivity. Where I once would go out of my way to help someone in a wheelchair, I'll now step aside so he isn't humiliated by my act of decency. Americans can't distinguish between kindness and paternalism.
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