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Safari - tabs - done! - Page 2

post #41 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>I don't see what the big deal is. When Safari came out everybody and their brother were screaming "TABS, TABS, TABS" and now everyone is saying "the concept sucks". You're a bunch of crybabies. Don't like tabs, use multiple windows. Don't like multiple windows use tabs (if they're available).</strong><hr></blockquote>


OK, now honestly I'm a little put off by this snide little comment. I've already stated my case, I was not part of the "we want tabs" crowd, and I don't think the three people who've mentioned that they don't like tabs in this thread deserve this.
post #42 of 358
Here are your 'tabs'





[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #43 of 358
Wow, I really don't see what all the hubbub is about.

Use the application as it is now, or use it with tabbed windows.

Everybody gets their own flavor.

Nobody loses!

Nuff Said.
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post #44 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

Tabs are a bad habit. It's like smoking. You can like tabs, but it doesn't mean it's good for you.

Tabs a solution in search of a problem.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What really annoys me about the anti-tab rhetoric is just how pious and self-righteous it is. It reminds of the self-styled interface gurus insisting why the Dock was evil UI even though I had been waiting impatiently for the Dock for years, and it's actually (mostly) excellent UI.

Tabs are a decent -- and, IMO, also somewhat flawed -- solution to a real problem: the clutter created when managing and switching between a large number of web pages open at the same time.

At this point, using the Window menu, command-~, and minimizing windows to the Dock is another solution. But this can get awfully untidy, and doesn't allow one to see all of one's open windows at a glance. Maybe an enhanced Minimize-in-Place in 10.3 and an improved Dock will help. Maybe not. We're not there yet.

And incidentally, comparing tabbed browsing to the Windows MDI paradigm seems to me a little...extreme. Yes, a single Safari v62 window can hold multiple pages, but what other solution is there? (And if you don't feel there's a problem, I suggest you're in the minority -- most people who discover tabbed browsed get hooked for a reason.) I find tabbed browsing (for all it's minuses) a pretty far cry from the MS windows-within-windows paradigm.
post #45 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>It keeps things much cleaner than having windows all over the place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nothing's stopping you from stacking Safari windows on top of each other. If you really need to see what's behind your Safari windows, you can option-click out of Safari.

The problem isn't really the existence of tabs, but the fact that people are using them the wrong way. I'm sure there are rare instances where tabs are better, but nobody has really pointed one out so far.
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post #46 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

Tabs are a bad habit. It's like smoking. You can like tabs, but it doesn't mean it's good for you.

</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's true. I've gotten used to life without tabs again since I've been using Safari.
post #47 of 358
Are people who are opposed to tabs also opposed to the Bookmarks bar? What is the functional difference between 1) using tabs and 2) clicking on bookmarks in the bar to bring up cached web pages?

I would just like to hear the anti-tab argument laid out.
post #48 of 358
I've mentioned my reason why I don't think tabs are a good idea, and why I don't buy the "you can turn them off" argument. They're all on the first page. Call it being self-righteous, but I think my points are cogent. It's not the end of the world of course, but it is the thread topic, hence all the posts about it.

I should also point out what I originally said in the MacNN forums. If you conceive of these "tabs" as temporary bookmarks it's not so bad. If you have the bookmarks bar on, they sort of look like they're glommed on to the bookmarks bar.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #49 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Hobbes:
<strong>

What really annoys me about the anti-tab rhetoric is just how pious and self-righteous it is. It reminds of the self-styled interface gurus insisting why the Dock was evil UI even though I had been waiting impatiently for the Dock for years, and it's actually (mostly) excellent UI.

Tabs are a decent -- and, IMO, also somewhat flawed -- solution to a real problem: the clutter created when managing and switching between a large number of web pages open at the same time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Righteous? Sure. Self-righteous, no. It's like how Dodge, GM, Ford, etc. started advertising how their cars had a jizzillion cupholders tucked into every space imaginable. Is having 22 cupholders in your car really better than having 8?

Tabs used in this way unintentionally promote a single-task oriented experience. When I browse the web, I like having at least two pages open with visual feedback on both. Most Windows users I know are single-taskers. They have one app occupying the whole screen at a time. That's not how I work, and that's what tabs promote.

BRussell, nope, I don't use Bookmark bars in any browser for the same reasons I dont use tabs. There's already a facility for me to select bookmarks. I don't need a redundant bookmark bar on one, two, three, four, or more open web browser windows.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #50 of 358
Wow, I've never seen Eugene so FIRED UP about something!

Let me see if I can give you an argument why I would -personally- like to have the option for tabbed winders...

I'm working on two different projects at the same time. These projects both require a fair amount of online work. I'm bouncing back and forth between the projects over the course of a few hours.

As things currently stand I've grown accustomed to rapidly flipping through windows via (command-tilde)....but on this theoretical example I now have 8 windows open and I often slam past the one I need...so I end up using my mouse to go up and manually select the proper window from the menubar.

If I could have tabbed windows I could have TWO windows open that contain all of the windows related to the project/subject contained therein...

I could STILL use the keyboard to slam between windows, but would know that I'm not going to have to flip through webpages from the OTHER open window...just the tabbed ones in the topmost window.

So, for me, this would be nice.

Don't take my head off Eugene!

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post #51 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Hobbes: I know they're plain ol' tabs, I'm just trying to rationalize the situation based on the tab appearance.

Eugene: Don't even get me started on Windows' use of tabs! Worst user experience ever!<hr></blockquote></strong>

I so agree -- Windows and a great deal of Windows apps do the most awful, awful things with tabs.


[quote]<strong>Other apps have used tabs in this bad way before even these web browsers picked them up. But Apple has essentially blessed a bad idea in the UE. Not like this is the first or last time. I don't mean to whine, I'm just pointing out my rationale.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I noticed Quark seems to be attempting to jump on the tabbed window bandwagon as well. (shudder)

And maybe you're right, that this will lead to a increased trend of inappopriately applied tabbed windows in Mac apps. That would be awful.

I don't know though. Browsing really does to me seem like a singular exception to the strong tradition in the Mac to avoid the multiple document interface in a single window.

In what other application activity do you find advanced users opening anywhere from a half-dozen to over a dozen windows, rapidly switching between them, and continously closing some, and opening new ones?
post #52 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Hobbes:
<strong>In what other application activity do you find advanced users opening anywhere from a half-dozen to over a dozen windows, rapidly switching between them, and continously closing some, and opening new ones?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Photoshop! Of course, Photoshop has its own issues, mainly because it's more of a Windows app now than an OS X app, but that's for another thread...
post #53 of 358
The interesting thing, if you look at the screenshots, is that Apple seems to acknowledge the evilness of the MDI interface; and by hanging the tabs from the top, it would SEEM that they are making it at least appear to the user that the global controls (back, forward, etc) are attached to each individual tab. (do you understand that? i'm not articulating particularly well tonight)

thereby eliminating much of the MDI problem. However, I'm not so sure that webpages are in fact documents; rather they are more like applications IMO, with unique interfaces, of course, but most web pages offer a similar amount of clickable actions and inputs as many 'native' widgeted 'tab' interfaces; see system preferences for example, each pane has tabs... what's so different between tabs in SysPrefs and tabs between webpages?

I'm genuinely indifferent about them. I find them useful in some situations... and a nuisance in others. I think the attachment of a close box (perhaps multifunctional widget, who knows from screen shots alone) to each tab is a much better idea than the seperated 'close tab' widgets present in Chimera or DirectConnect...

I think this could shape up to be a good thing. No reports yet on rearrangeability, though...
post #54 of 358
drewprops, there *are* siatuations where tabs are appropriate, but from what I've seen in this thread, most people are using tabs to bring the Microsoft Windows UE paradigm to Mac OS.

Nearly every Windows user I know has his mIRC, Explorer, Word, etc. windows maximized to fit his screen, using the taskbar tabs to switch between apps. I just think that's awful, and if tabs allow people to do this, then it's better not having them as an option.
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post #55 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Hobbes:
<strong>In what other application activity do you find advanced users opening anywhere from a half-dozen to over a dozen windows, rapidly switching between them, and continously closing some, and opening new ones?</strong><hr></blockquote>

What exactly are you looking at in order to have a half-dozen to over a dozen windows open? pr0n searching? There's something wrong if you're going through that many websites.

Can you give me an example where all these websites have to be constantly at a click's grasp?

Not to mention that having 6 to 12 tabs in a window that's not fullscreen wide causes some serious truncation problems that renders tabs tit-useless.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
post #56 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>

Photoshop! Of course, Photoshop has its own issues, mainly because it's more of a Windows app now than an OS X app, but that's for another thread...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm just fine with the way Photoshop works in OS X right now. Conversely, I hate Photoshop in Windows because it uses MDI... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
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post #57 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>I like having... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Enough said.

All of your 'solutions' for tabs are multi-click/lot's o' mouse movement solutions. Not good time management. They're kind of laughable 'solutions' considering how annoying some of them are.

For someone with one screen (most mac users, hell, most computer users) tabs help increase screen space and visual feedback.

I think a tab should be able to be pulled off to a separate window. I also think a hierarchical history (like the bookmarks screen) would be an interesting addition to a browser.
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post #58 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>
Nearly every Windows user I know has his mIRC, Explorer, Word, etc. windows maximized to fit his screen, using the taskbar tabs to switch between apps. I just think that's awful, and if tabs allow people to do this, then it's better not having them as an option.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whatever Eugene doesn't like isn't good!
post #59 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Nothing's stopping you from stacking Safari windows on top of each other. If you really need to see what's behind your Safari windows, you can option-click out of Safari.

The problem isn't really the existence of tabs, but the fact that people are using them the wrong way. I'm sure there are rare instances where tabs are better, but nobody has really pointed one out so far.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But Eugene, requiring users to manually stack their windows on top of one another is BAD interface. It's needless work. As is travelling to the Window menu or control-clicking the Dock just to see what windows you have open.

[quote]<strong>
Tabs used in this way unintentionally promote a single-task oriented experience. When I browse the web, I like having at least two pages open with visual feedback on both. Most Windows users I know are single-taskers. They have one app occupying the whole screen at a time. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't see how having the ability to group the multiple tasks you're working on into a unified structure makes you a single-tasker.

I do know what you mean about visual feedback in the background, though. It's something that's definitely reduced in tabbed browsing (not completely lost -- just reduced into a single tab).

Look, the point is, some people find tabbed browsing incredibly elegant, and other find it incredibly ugly. I think it truth is somewhere in-between... tabs are very compact and efficient, but can be clunky, and reduce to Taskbar-like incoherence if too many are open. I'd like to see something even better. But as BuonRuotto said, it's not the end of world.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
post #60 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm just fine with the way Photoshop works in OS X right now. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm teasing... a little. In a facetious response to Hobbes' post, Photoshop is another app where I often have many windows open at once. It could make use of more OS X UE features like inspectors and toolbars instead of button bars (all Adobe apps feel like Windows apps right now thanks to this) and olde-timey palettes that in OS X look and act wonky.

And for another facetious post, how silly does Apple's homepage with its tabs look with Safari's tabs just above them?
post #61 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>
Whatever Eugene doesn't like isn't good!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lame answer...yuo lose!!!!

Why should Eugene or I be left out in the dust? An effort to find a better solution that fits both tab-lovers and 'the rest' should be Apple's priority. Not just slapping in the tabbed concept and calling it a day.

What a stupid solution. I bet the Safari and Hyatt spent half a second trying to figure out a better solution.
post #62 of 358
We shouldn't be too critical yet since it's implemented with the Debug menu in an unreleased build for the first time. They have time to improve it.
post #63 of 358
Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).

When in single-window mode, another Dock should slide out of the Dock app's icon. It would be a second layer and would contain the document windows...and should only be out when the app that has single-window mode activated has focus.

Of course...Apple attaches the Dock to the bottom of the screen by default...this idea would be better if the Dock was attached to sides of the screen to not waste precious vertical space.
post #64 of 358
kim kap sol: there is nothing forcing tabbed browsing upon safari users. it's not the default behavior...

you can use it just as it is now, or you can use it with tabs.

i highly doubt that this will change in the future. newbies don't know tabs necessarily; the normal multiple window behavior will *i'm sure* remain default, with tabs being enabled somewhere in preferences or in the menus.

I really don't see what is wrong with having the option for something like this, which is preferred by many...

Every app can't be the interface holy grail. Sometimes, usability for a majority of the population comes from different UI paradigms than those that are fundamentally correct or perfect.
post #65 of 358
hey eugene i dont know bout you but i do as much as i can at one time with my mac and the dock is not fun when i have everything running. trying runninh ichat reading and playing warcraft 3 online. its fun. but it helps with ai. cuz i have like 5-10 windows open with ichat. so one window in chimera works. that and other times, i just hate having to work with my dock. way too many items to work with windows. but great for apps. if nething i would have my windows minimize to the side and leave my apps in the dock on the bottom. but back to the point, many windows work when you have just safari open i admit that. but when there is more than one it really sucks.
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post #66 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>
Why should Eugene or I be left out in the dust? </strong><hr></blockquote>
How the hell are you two being left out in the dust? IF YOU DON'T LIKE TABS DON'T USE THEM. You guys obvious like having multiple windows open so obviously you're not being left out in the dust. You'll continue doing what you like.
post #67 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Aren't all apps document-based? Well, except maybe the iApps and other "framework" which are organizational/database-like front-ends.
post #68 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).

When in single-window mode, another Dock should slide out of the Dock app's icon. It would be a second layer and would contain the document windows...and should only be out when the app that has single-window mode activated has focus.

Of course...Apple attaches the Dock to the bottom of the screen by default...this idea would be better if the Dock was attached to sides of the screen to not waste precious vertical space.</strong><hr></blockquote>

you know, i once thought of something like this...

except mine went one step fourther by hiding the dock by default; it would be triggered by the 'apple menu' - and slide ouit and stay there until turned off. it would fill the entire left of the screen, but maybe have text labels under each icon? IDK exactly. Current Apple menu functions would be in some sort of iconlet in the dock/menu thingy.


When i get a chance, i'll mock somethign up. it's not terribly start-menu-like... it may sound it, but it isn't...
post #69 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>I'm teasing... a little. In a facetious response to Hobbes' post, Photoshop is another app where I often have many windows open at once.<hr></blockquote></strong>

Well, at the risk of responding too seriously to being teased, same here -- window management in Photoshop can be real bitch sometimes. But, at least in my work habits, not to the same extent as browsing -- I'll rarely be working at a single browser window for a long period of time. Only when browsing do I find myself going through windows very quickly.

[quote]<strong>And for another facetious post, how silly does Apple's homepage with its tabs look with Safari's tabs just above them? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Weird.




[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
post #70 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by EmAn:
<strong>
How the hell are you two being left out in the dust? IF YOU DON'T LIKE TABS DON'T USE THEM. You guys obvious like having multiple windows open so obviously you're not being left out in the dust. You'll continue doing what you like.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!
post #71 of 358
Nice.

Have new Contextual Menus been implemented in v.62?
And can some of the more privileged here plz fire up their copy of Acquisition..
post #72 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:
<strong>The interesting thing, if you look at the screenshots, is that Apple seems to acknowledge the evilness of the MDI interface; and by hanging the tabs from the top, it would SEEM that they are making it at least appear to the user that the global controls (back, forward, etc) are attached to each individual tab. (do you understand that? i'm not articulating particularly well tonight)
(snip)

I'm genuinely indifferent about them. I find them useful in some situations... and a nuisance in others. I think the attachment of a close box (perhaps multifunctional widget, who knows from screen shots alone) to each tab is a much better idea than the seperated 'close tab' widgets present in Chimera or DirectConnect...

I think this could shape up to be a good thing. No reports yet on rearrangeability, though...</strong><hr></blockquote>


That's a great point. It does look like Apple is trying to reduce the MDI-ness of tabbed browsing as much as possible.

The close tab widgets are very nicely done -- they even have a little subtle rollover effect, akin to an inactive window.

The way inactive tabs are recessed work nicely, as well.

They're not re-arrangeable yet, at least in v62.
post #73 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>

Aren't all apps document-based? Well, except maybe the iApps and other "framework" which are organizational/database-like front-ends.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not necessarly. Some windows aren't document windows. Pref windows and other windows like, for example, download managers.

And like you said, iApps and other apps that don't rely on multiple instances of it's own existance.
post #74 of 358
(ok. i admit i stopped reading the anti-tab ranting somewhere on the first page, but...)

Tabs are not Bad UI in any absolute sense.
For a web browser, especially on a smaller screen, they are great. And i say this as a lifetime Mac user who hates the Windows UI, and MDI.

Using the dock is slow and annoying (you have to 'feel around' to see which window is which, waiting for names to pop up), and using the Window menu is more steps (and slower).

The tabs take up a very small amount of screen real estate and allow rapid switching of sites.. perfect for exploring a link or two while keeping the original page open, all in instant reach.

I loved tabs the moment i tried them, and can't wait for the option to use them in Safari.


People preaching about tabs being 'bad for me' are, well, i'll keep my mouth shut, but i think they've been spoiled by giant screens, or maybe conditioned to hate anything even remotely associated with Windows UI.

I do find Windows implementation of multiple rows of tabs to be utterly horrible, BTW.. The 'dancing tabs' effect drives me nuts. But that's not happening here, so it's hardly relevant.

Tabs can be implemented badly, or acceptably, and i see nothing horribly wrong with Chimera (or Safari's) implementation.


-robo
post #75 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Hobbes:
<strong>
But Eugene, requiring users to manually stack their windows on top of one another is BAD interface. It's needless work. As is travelling to the Window menu or control-clicking the Dock just to see what windows you have open.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I often find myself moving windows anyway since pages are not all designed off one template, and unless you do subscribe to the maximized window paradigm, there's no getting around moving and resizing windows.

You still have to click on a tiny little tab to get to the background page. With a tiled window in the background, the tab is much bigger as well. Let's take AppleInsider for example. I open a thread. When I reply, I automatically right-click and open a new window for the reply because UBB's quoting system is messed up. Now I can select the text to be quoted in Safari, and drag it to the text box. I can also switch back and forth between your post and mine without clicking on the tabs.

In the end, tabs make you click more since you're hiding something every time. Tabs also screw up drag and drop ability.

Options are nice, but when they start promoting bad habits that detract from Mac OS style usability, I have to protest.
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post #76 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by Hobbes:
<strong>

Weird.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now try it with the bookmarks bar on!
post #77 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by zKillah:
<strong>Have new Contextual Menus been implemented in v.62?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Only if tabbed browsing is turned on (e.g. "Open link in new tab"), as far as I've noticed.

Some other observations: when tabbed browsing is on, command-clicking will open a link in a new tab; command-option-clicking will open the link in a new window. Command-W closes the tab, command-shift-W (or clicking the standard red close widget) closes the window. Shift-command left and right arrow toggle through tabs.

[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
post #78 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by kim kap sol:
<strong>

If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've been fine using Safari without tabs. That's not the point. The point is there's no reason not to have them. The peoplke that like them will use them. The people, like you, that don't like them won't use them.
post #79 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by robo:
<strong>Using the dock is slow and annoying (you have to 'feel around' to see which window is which, waiting for names to pop up), and using the Window menu is more steps (and slower).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Using a tab is one click.
Using the window menu or Dock is one click.

Using the window menu means going to a static location every single time. A tab's location is dependent on the window's location.

It's for the same reason why I pinned my dock to the right of my screen...so the trash can would stay put.

It really doesn't matter if I'm spoiled by a large screen. Tabs don't magically add real estate. Multiple windows don't necessarily take away real estate.
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post #80 of 358
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Now try it with the bookmarks bar on!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yup. It's a bit goofy. I instinctively turned it off when trying out the tabs.

It's funny how quickly one acclimatizes, though. It already feels like I've been using tabbed browsing in Safari for ages.
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