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Unlocked iPhone for sale for 749euros in France (1070usd) - Page 2

post #41 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March.

The iPhone has sold about the same number of phones to 233 million US cell phone customers since June.

I'm thinking your idea of what a feature list looks like as it laps another product might be due for a revision.

I know introducing some reality to a true believer in the Jesus Phone is asking for trouble but the N95 has sold more than that. It sold 1.5 million in it's first full quarter (Q2)...

http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1143589

Sales of it's multimedia phones (ie. N series) grew 23% in Q3 and they added the 8GB versions of the N95 and N81. They didn't break it down by model but, let's say they shipped another 1.85 million N95s last quarter. (previous 1.5 million + 23%)

In Q1 they again don't break out the numbers but lets guess about 500,000 N95 since it shipped mid quarter in March.

So, I make that about 3.85 million N95s alone and it's only one of Nokia's N series and E series smartphone range that all are more feature rich than the iPhone. And then you've SE's W series and P series phones and to some extent the HTC and blackberrys.


Taskiss, I'm not surprised you think the iPhone is so good and it's doing so well in America. To paraphrase someone else, it's like giving "ice water to people in hell". The market here is very different to the USA.

ZO is spot on about the walled garden. It may seem like Apple are fighting the carriers in the USA but the deals they've done with carriers in Europe are just unheard of here and both restrictive and expensive. To us it looks like Apple is gouging the carriers who in turn are gouging subscribers.

We use the N95 as an example in these debates as it's broadly comparable and the current consumer multimedia smartphone sitting in the top spot in Europe. It's what Apple is aiming at. It's comparably priced unlocked to the rumoured iPhone price here and in Apple's results they said they were recognising about $100 per quarter for the iPhone making it $800 over the 2 year accounting period. Yet, despite similar unlocked prices, the N95 is available for free on the kinds of locked in contracts Apple (and O2, T-mobile and Orange) are asking. There's a big premium on the iPhone for hardware that's beautiful to look at but technically weak and software that's great at what it does but does so little.

I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit. The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.

What we're looking for in Europe is the feature set of the N95 done Apple style.
post #42 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I know introducing some reality to a true believer in the Jesus Phone is asking for trouble but the N95 has sold more than that. It sold 1.5 million in it's first full quarter (Q2)...

http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1143589

Sales of it's multimedia phones (ie. N series) grew 23% in Q3 and they added the 8GB versions of the N95 and N81. They didn't break it down by model but, let's say they shipped another 1.85 million N95s last quarter. (previous 1.5 million + 23%)

In Q1 they again don't break out the numbers but lets guess about 500,000 N95 since it shipped mid quarter in March.

So, I make that about 3.85 million N95s alone and it's only one of Nokia's N series and E series smartphone range that all are more feature rich than the iPhone. And then you've SE's W series and P series phones and to some extent the HTC and blackberrys.

N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter and iPhone sold just about 1.5 M by the end of it's full quarter... and the N95 was released in a market twice the size as the one the iPhone was released in... I'm thinking you're beating the drum pretty loudly in order to keep people from seeing what you've written here, buddy. Perhaps YOU need to read what you've written, in fact, since it doesn't support the argument you seem to be wanting to make. Sucks to be you, I guess.
Quote:
Taskiss, I'm not surprised you think the iPhone is so good and it's doing so well in America. To paraphrase someone else, it's like giving "ice water to people in hell". The market here is very different to the USA.

The N95 is available in the USA, so I'm not sure what your point is here...perhaps you want to re-read that, too.
Quote:
ZO is spot on about the walled garden. It may seem like Apple are fighting the carriers in the USA but the deals they've done with carriers in Europe are just unheard of here and both restrictive and expensive. To us it looks like Apple is gouging the carriers who in turn are gouging subscribers.

We use the N95 as an example in these debates as it's broadly comparable and the current consumer multimedia smartphone sitting in the top spot in Europe. It's what Apple is aiming at. It's comparably priced unlocked to the rumoured iPhone price here and in Apple's results they said they were recognising about $100 per quarter for the iPhone making it $800 over the 2 year accounting period. Yet, despite similar unlocked prices, the N95 is available for free on the kinds of locked in contracts Apple (and O2, T-mobile and Orange) are asking. There's a big premium on the iPhone for hardware that's beautiful to look at but technically weak and software that's great at what it does but does so little.

I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit. The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.

What we're looking for in Europe is the feature set of the N95 done Apple style.

"I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load..."

You need to "speak out of only one side of your mouth". Compare "apples to apples", so to speak. Either that or fly to the US and buy a vowel from Vana or whatever. The iPhone isn't going to save the world. It's going to expand on the dominance Apple has in the personal media player market by allowing people to make calls on their iPod. It'll only take up one pocket to carry the tech people want to carry. It's not the end-all and be-all you insist it must be to be relevant and the sales volumes and customer survey results all point to you being totally out of line in your vision of what the device is and should be.

It's a very nice video iPod that I can use to make phone calls with, it's got features that are easy to use, an interface that's an order of magnitude better than any other comparable device, and in addition it allows me to browse the web, get my e-mail, and when I'm finished doing that it slips into my pocket without making me look like I'm very glad to meetcha.

Get a grip and smell the coffee. Don't project your phobia on me... just 'cause you feel you can't be wrong so everyone else must be, ... man, that's your dysfunction, not mine. When it comes to consumer electronics there's more than one right answer.

I didn't even own an iPod before this. All I want to carry is one piece of tech on me and if that tech gets me what the iPhone gets me, it's all good. If it didn't I wouldn't have gotten it. AND - that very same attitude is what Apple's product delivers on. So, when you go off and beat your drum like you do, don't be surprised when someone defends a product that they thoroughly enjoy owning.

In the end, I'm obviously better served by the product than you are. I like using it. It works for me. My "claim to fame" is based on how satisfied I am with it, and your "claim to fame" is how dissatisfied you are with it. It's logical that I defend something that I enjoy, and it speaks to who you are that you feel the need to advertise your dissatisfaction.
post #43 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter and iPhone sold just about 1.5 M by the end of it's full quarter

I'll explain again...

The N95 sold 1.5 million in just it's SECOND quarter (Nokia's figures) which was it's first FULL quarter, not it's first quarter. It was released midway through Q1. There are no figures for that quarter but I extrapolated 500,000 from the Multimedia divisions sales figures. It's also had an entire third quarter where sales increased 23%. Please read more carefully. That's nearly three quarters since March. It's not 1.5 million since March as you stated. That was just Q2.

500,000 in Q1 +
1.5M in Q2 +
1.85M in Q3

= 3.85M in 7 months.

Apple have sold 1.39 million iPhones (source: Apple) to date. (4 months)
post #44 of 83
Talk about odd... what part of my sentence "N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter..." did you not understand to the point where you had to reply "...which was it's first FULL quarter..."? I said it was the first full quarter...didn't you catch that? And as for your extrapolations, well, let's stick to the facts, OK? Let's compare exactly what we can absolutely compare. The only numbers Nokia has made available for N95 sales figures are the ones I posted. Educated guesses are still guesses, and I'm thinking if you had more than guesses you'd have posted it.

What we can absolutely quantify is the reported first full quarter (Q2) of Nokia's N95 sales and the reported first full quarter (Q3) sales of Apple's iPhone.

The market for the N95 was about 700 million and they sold 1.5 million.

The market for the iPhone was about 233 million and they sold 1.1 million.

Do THAT math.
post #45 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

What?

Do you have any information that's newer than 1 month? Cumulative global Wii sales exceeded that of 360 as of last month. This is despite a later introduction. I think Wii had one of the fastest up-take rates in consoles in some time.

Guess I was referring to outdated information... During the early summer 360 had overtaken the 360, but looks like Wii has taken it back. But these are estimates, correct? As of August 23rd, the estimates were that the Wii had sold 10.57 units and the 360 10.51MM units. Thats a difference of less than 1%. So as far as i'm concerned, thats not a statistically significant difference. But i'd like to see some post-Halo3 360 numbers... they may tell a different story.

But the point is that the Wii sold like crazy, but the people that I know who have one don't play it anymore. It can't compare with the features of the competition. Dont take this analogy and run with it because i'm not saying the iphone is like the Wii. Its just an illustrative example that products that are oversimplified compared to the competition will experience less sustained sales growth.
post #46 of 83
Quote:
The N95 sells by the truck load and IMHO it's shit too - typical Nokia bulky crap with an overly complex interface.

If you really feel the Nokia phones are crap, what is wrong with Apple changing the way phones are done. Instead of releasing multiple different phones with multiple differing functions. One phone with an easy to use interface that is updated with new functions through software. What is the problem with that?


Quote:
I'm sure it'll still sell by the truck load but then so did the LG Chocolate and the Razr and those were shit.

You guys in Europe are confusing me. You say Europe has such sophisticated taste. Then say the best selling phones are crappy. Then say the iPhone is gouging customers in a way they won't accept. Then say it will still sell well. This all sounds like a lot of contradiction.

Also the N95 sold 1.5 million units in its first full quarter in a market twice as large as the US, across multiple mobile carriers, across multiple countries.

The iPhone sold 1.1 million units in its first full quarter in a market half the size of Europe, on one mobile carrier, in one country.




Of the potential 700 million mobile phone users in Europe, 500 million in North America, 200 million in Japan and South Korea. Apple has only projected to sell 10 million iPhones through 2008. I would call that a very humble projection.
post #47 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Also the N95 sold 1.5 million units in its first full quarter in a market twice as large as the US, across multiple mobile carriers, across multiple countries.

The N95's first full quarter included the US. It went on sale here on April 7th, 2007. It was available to about 3 times as many cell phone customers as the iPhone was.

There are 466 million cell customers in the EU and 233 million in the US, according to cia.gov
post #48 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Talk about odd... what part of my sentence "N95 sold 1.5 M by the end of it's first full quarter..." did you not understand to the point where you had to reply "...which was it's first FULL quarter..."? I said it was the first full quarter...didn't you catch that?

Third time lucky perhaps.

The N95's first full quarter was not it's first quarter. It did not sell 1.5 million by the end of it's first full quarter. It sold 1.5 million IN it's first full quarter. Add to that it's first quarter, and it's third quarter.

You stated "The EU has 466 million cellular phone customers and the N95 has sold about 1.5 million units since March." which is only true if Nokia sold no N95s in Q1 and none in Q3. And you're wrong about the 466 million. In 2005 the GSM association reckoned there were 585 million phone subscriptions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

And as for your extrapolations, well, let's stick to the facts, OK? Let's compare exactly what we can absolutely compare. The only numbers Nokia has made available for N95 sales figures are the ones I posted. Educated guesses are still guesses, and I'm thinking if you had more than guesses you'd have posted it.

Nokia doesn't break out it's figures by each model it sells except for in Q2 where they stated in their financial statement that they'd sold 1.5 million N95 phones in that quarter. That's the figure you quoted but you mistakenly attributed it to entire sales to date, which is wrong.

I extrapolated from Q2 that they'd sold about a third as many in the previous incomplete quarter and that their 23% more sales in Q3 with no new models other than 8GB versions of their N95 and N81 that increasing from 1.5 million by 23% was a reasonable assumption. Of course, it's entirely possible that N95 sales tanked or that they sky rocketed - we've no firm figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

What we can absolutely quantify is the reported first full quarter (Q2) of Nokia's N95 sales and the reported first full quarter (Q3) sales of Apple's iPhone.

Yes, 1.5m N95 v 1.1m iPhone. But that wasn't your original assertion that the iPhone had sold about as many as the N95 had since March.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

The market for the N95 was about 700 million and they sold 1.5 million.

The market for the iPhone was about 233 million and they sold 1.1 million.

Do THAT math.

It helps when using maths as an argument that you start with the right figures.

The market for smartphones isn't the entire population but I'll play along. 700 million is the current estimate for Europe. The USA has a current population of 303 million (not 233 million)[1]. Apple says they sold 1.39 million iPhones in 4 months and I put N95 at 3.85 million in 7 months.

So,

Nokia have sold on average 17,741 N95s a day.
Apple have sold on average 11,209 iPhones a day.

BUT, Europe is a bigger market, 2 and a third times bigger, so yes, you're right, they should have been selling 26,000 N95s a day. Slackers.

BUT that's far too simplistic a model as the market for an expensive smartphone isn't 100% of the population - not by far. Europe is a much more diverse continent than the USA. There's quite some difference between the UK and Slovakia.

All of which wasn't my point, it was just that your "1.5 million since March" figure was wrong.

[1] http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html
[2] http://www.gsmworld.com/gsmeurope/news/facts.shtml
post #49 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

All of which wasn't my point, it was just that your "1.5 million since March" figure was wrong.

Ah, but it's not wrong. It's the only accurate sales figure available for the device since it's introduction.

All of which wasn't my point either, but hey, you run with what you got. You know, you offer no slack to anybody, accuse people of not understanding, not reading, etc, and then expect them to take it when you need the slack to make your point.

Do you really expect people to let you get away with that? Does it EVER work out for you?
post #50 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Ah, but it's not wrong. It's the only accurate sales figure available for the device since it's introduction.

All of which wasn't my point either, but hey, you run with what you got. You know, you offer no slack to anybody, accuse people of not understanding, not reading, etc, and then expect them to take it when you need the slack to make your point.

Do you really expect people to let you get away with that? Does it EVER work out for you?

FOURTH TIME.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Nokia sold 1.5 million N95 in Q2 - That's 3 months from April to June. It's in their financial figures at http://www.nokia.com/A4162334

They have NOT sold 1.5 million since March. That figure is not available. The 1.5 million figure is just Q2. 3 months out of 7.

There's no grey area here. No slack needed at all. It's hard figures in a financial report. Read it.
post #51 of 83
Aegis is right Taskiss. Nokia has certainly sold more N95's since June. The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.
post #52 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.

I'm not sure it was an argument that made sense. OK, so both devices sold pretty well. It really doesn't address whether or not iPhone will sell well in Europe, so the time spent trying to get the most accurate figures seems pointless. iPhone certainly doesn't need to "wipe the floor" with any of its competitors to be a success. We're probably all very well aware of the benefits and drawbacks of iPhone vs. its competitors, now it's up to the market to decide what they want based on what they are offered.
post #53 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

FOURTH TIME.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Nokia sold 1.5 million N95 in Q2 - That's 3 months from April to June. It's in their financial figures at http://www.nokia.com/A4162334

They have NOT sold 1.5 million since March. That figure is not available. The 1.5 million figure is just Q2. 3 months out of 7.

There's no grey area here. No slack needed at all. It's hard figures in a financial report. Read it.

Instead just saying 'you're wrong' why not put up the right figure. It seems the comparison is trying to be made between either.

1) from start of sales through the first full quarter
iPhone - 1.39 million
Nokia - 1.5 million + pre partial quarter sales whatever they were. If they were significant they should be in the previous financial report. If they're not there they're likely insignificant for purposes of this (very long) discussion.

2) First full quarter sales
iPhone - 1.12 million
Nokia - 1.5 million

The bottom line is the iPhone sales are impressive by levels set by Nokia.
post #54 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Instead just saying 'you're wrong' why not put up the right figure. It seems the comparison is trying to be made between either.

Because I can't because Nokia do not break out per-model numbers. The exception being Q2 where they quoted 1.5 million for the N95 in particular. They didn't do so for any other model they sell in Q2 and they must sell at least 100 different models.

Taskiss was claiming the 1.5 million figure was for the entire time since March, which is wrong. That's what I took issue with, with actual facts, which he's continued to ignore.

Nokia's Multimedia division, which is the division that produces the N series, had revenue of 2.5 billion Euro (3.6 billion USD) last quarter out of about 13 billion Euro (18.5 billion USD) revenue for the whole of Nokia. Apple managed 880 million USD if you take the $800 for each iPhone they're recognising over 2 years and just stick it in the last quarter. Apple had revenue of 6.2 billion last quarter (ie. about a third of Nokia).

It's fantastic results for Apple but in context I'm sure Nokia aren't really so bothered when they're selling 112 million handsets a quarter.

As I said, injecting reality into the RDF is dangerous, but that's the hard facts.
post #55 of 83
I suppose the other headline figure to work out is that Apple sold almost exactly 1% of Nokia's handset sales last quarter. Nokia reckon they own 39% of the market in their last financial statement so Apple's market share is currently 0.39%.

They've still some way to go to capture that 1% of the market Jobs stood on stage and predicted. Can they do 0.61% in Europe and Asia ?
post #56 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Because I can't because Nokia do not break out per-model numbers. The exception being Q2 where they quoted 1.5 million for the N95 in particular. They didn't do so for any other model they sell in Q2 and they must sell at least 100 different models.

Taskiss was claiming the 1.5 million figure was for the entire time since March, which is wrong. That's what I took issue with, with actual facts, which he's continued to ignore.

Nokia's Multimedia division, which is the division that produces the N series, had revenue of 2.5 billion Euro (3.6 billion USD) last quarter out of about 13 billion Euro (18.5 billion USD) revenue for the whole of Nokia. Apple managed 880 million USD if you take the $800 for each iPhone they're recognising over 2 years and just stick it in the last quarter. Apple had revenue of 6.2 billion last quarter (ie. about a third of Nokia).

It's fantastic results for Apple but in context I'm sure Nokia aren't really so bothered when they're selling 112 million handsets a quarter.

As I said, injecting reality into the RDF is dangerous, but that's the hard facts.

No really, what really dangerous is going up against the Anti RDF brigade

If Nokia broke it out in Q2 and didn't in Q1 than they were likely insignificant in Q1. In any case the conclusion holds based solely on the 1st full quarter sales - Apple's sales of iPhone are great, even by supposed Nokia standards.

In another thread discussing the 'new' nokia touch interface there is the same contradictory type of statement as was pointed out earlier in this thread.

This thread
European will only but a better class of phone
Razr/LG is crap
Razr/LG are great selling phones

The other thread (Nokia Killer)
Nokia could care less about iPhone
Nokia will pre-announce an unfinished phone in Nov to disrupt iPhone introduction

Either they care about it or they don't. They either will or won't buy these types of phones. There certainly seems to be an equivalent RDF around European expectation and demands.

Personally, from my European coworkers that I've shown the iPhone to they instantly want to get one.
post #57 of 83
Quote:
I'm not sure it was an argument that made sense. OK, so both devices sold pretty well. It really doesn't address whether or not iPhone will sell well in Europe,

I see your point and agree. The value I can see in the comparison is that the Europeans on this list hold the N95 as being superior to the iPhone and declare that Europe will accept nothing less. When you look at the sales in proportion to the market. The iPhone has sold better than the N95.

I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.

iPhone is heading into Europe with high expectations and momentum. If the N95 had sold more in Europe than the iPhone had sold in the US during the same quarters, I believe Nokia would have allowed it to be known.

Quote:
They've still some way to go to capture that 1% of the market Jobs stood on stage and predicted. Can they do 0.61% in Europe and Asia ?

I would wager most of those 250,000 unlocked phones went to other countries where the iPhone is not yet available. I think to some degree Apple does not mind as it begins to build enthusiam for when the phone is official launched.

Having gained .39% in one market with one mobile carrier. It should be no problem to grow at least another .61% with over a billion potential customers yet to be served.
post #58 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

In another thread discussing the 'new' nokia touch interface there is the same contradictory type of statement as was pointed out earlier in this thread.

This thread
European will only but a better class of phone
Razr/LG is crap
Razr/LG are great selling phones

The other thread (Nokia Killer)
Nokia could care less about iPhone
Nokia will pre-announce an unfinished phone in Nov to disrupt iPhone introduction

Either they care about it or they don't. They either will or won't buy these types of phones. There certainly seems to be an equivalent RDF around European expectation and demands.

Personally, from my European coworkers that I've shown the iPhone to they instantly want to get one.

There's nothing contradictory above. The Razr and LG phones are crap. They still sold a load of them here in Europe because of their looks, but their time has passed and they don't sell well now. They aren't in the top ten phones sold now. Moto launched the Razr2 here a month or so ago. That's not showing on the charts yet and I'm not sure it will. In general flip phones aren't as popular as candybars in Europe except in younger age groups.

Nokia quite probably aren't bothered about Apple now. Let's see what Apple can do after their 1.0 products. Touchscreen phones though are the new fashion item it seems. It would be daft for Nokia to not dip a toe in that ocean at least. They refused for a long time to make flip phones for America and have suffered because of it.

I was going to instantly get an iPhone too on November 9th, despite the high cost, despite the limitations. However what they've done with closing off 3rd party apps and bricking unlocked phones left a bad taste so I'm waiting till the SDK is out and they've announced how they are handling 3rd party apps. Some of the things the 3rd party apps did I needed (like ssh) so it'd be pointless me buying one until that is back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

I see your point and agree. The value I can see in the comparison is that the Europeans on this list hold the N95 as being superior to the iPhone and declare that Europe will accept nothing less. When you look at the sales in proportion to the market. The iPhone has sold better than the N95.

It's only superior on a feature comparison basis and we use it as an example of what a top end phone is like in Europe. On a feature comparison is way, way more advanced. We could also use the P1i or N81. There are quite a few other phones with just slightly lesser specs than the N95 but more than the iPhone, but those are also cheaper. The iPhone is more expensive than the N95. Not everyone buys on a feature checklist or price of course as Apple knows.

However, I think there's a big disconnect here. Apple are missing features we consider basic in Europe. I could put up with the lack of MMS, lack of video, lack of 3G, lack of decent camera - just for the UI - but I can't imagine many other people will.


Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.

I don't think anyone has said we're infatuated with the N95. Most will tell you it's an oversized brick of a phone with poor software, crappy build quality and poor battery life. Still, it's the cutting edge currently here. That's what Apple are up against, amongst others, including the superb Walkman phones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

iPhone is heading into Europe with high expectations and momentum. If the N95 had sold more in Europe than the iPhone had sold in the US during the same quarters, I believe Nokia would have allowed it to be known.

Come on, Apple didn't break out it's iPod numbers by model when the Zune came out. Companies just don't release that info in general in otherwise dry financials.
post #59 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I agree this does not directly tell how well the iPhone will do in Europe, I think it does give insight that most of Europe was not as infatuated with the N95 as those here lead us to believe.

Well, if you look at current Nokia products, they list 87 different phone models in Europe. 38 of those are 3G smartphones. They aren't trying to get everyone to buy a N95.

Spec-wise maybe the closest Nokia has to iPhone right now is the N91 music phone. The 4GB version was launched Q2 2006, 8GB version followed it. From a quick look to German net stores, they can be had for about 300-400.

For a N95-level feature set but a whole lot less teh ugly, the N82 is rumored to be out shortly.
post #60 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Aegis is right Taskiss. Nokia has certainly sold more N95's since June. The most we can say is that the number of sales from that point to now is likely nothing to brag about.

"The most we can say" about this subject should be limited to verifiable evidence, TenoBell. I did narrow the window to a single quarter but I can't accept making up numbers to support my position. I can discuss things when facts and opinions are involved, but if you claim certain numbers you should have facts, not opinions.

Sort of like the Piper Jaffray claim that 45 million iPhones will be sold in calendar year 2009. 3.75 million iPhones a month! sheesh! How long do you think I'd go unchallenged were I to base any position in any discussion on that wild guess? I'm thinking not too long...

The N95 was offered by another poster as the device with a feature list that "runs circles around the iPhone" (I believe that's how it was described), and it was claimed that EU sophistication demanded such features to capture market share. That's why the discussion shifted in that direction.
post #61 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

There's nothing contradictory above. The Razr and LG phones are crap. They still sold a load of them here in Europe because of their looks, but their time has passed and they don't sell well now. They aren't in the top ten phones sold now. Moto launched the Razr2 here a month or so ago. That's not showing on the charts yet and I'm not sure it will. In general flip phones aren't as popular as candybars in Europe except in younger age groups.

Nokia quite probably aren't bothered about Apple now. Let's see what Apple can do after their 1.0 products. Touchscreen phones though are the new fashion item it seems. It would be daft for Nokia to not dip a toe in that ocean at least. They refused for a long time to make flip phones for America and have suffered because of it.

I was going to instantly get an iPhone too on November 9th, despite the high cost, despite the limitations. However what they've done with closing off 3rd party apps and bricking unlocked phones left a bad taste so I'm waiting till the SDK is out and they've announced how they are handling 3rd party apps. Some of the things the 3rd party apps did I needed (like ssh) so it'd be pointless me buying one until that is back.




It's only superior on a feature comparison basis and we use it as an example of what a top end phone is like in Europe. On a feature comparison is way, way more advanced. We could also use the P1i or N81. There are quite a few other phones with just slightly lesser specs than the N95 but more than the iPhone, but those are also cheaper. The iPhone is more expensive than the N95. Not everyone buys on a feature checklist or price of course as Apple knows.

However, I think there's a big disconnect here. Apple are missing features we consider basic in Europe. I could put up with the lack of MMS, lack of video, lack of 3G, lack of decent camera - just for the UI - but I can't imagine many other people will.




I don't think anyone has said we're infatuated with the N95. Most will tell you it's an oversized brick of a phone with poor software, crappy build quality and poor battery life. Still, it's the cutting edge currently here. That's what Apple are up against, amongst others, including the superb Walkman phones.



Come on, Apple didn't break out it's iPod numbers by model when the Zune came out. Companies just don't release that info in general in otherwise dry financials.

Aegis,

First, please be careful with your quotes. I believe that only the first quote is mine.

Second, it IS highly contradictory to claim something is 'crap' and then say that it sold boatloads. If there was only 1 product, that would be fine but I think we can all agree that there are choices in the mobile phone market so CRAP shouldn't sell. That is, unless, the definition of CRAP is just someone's opinion, and not the markets. What's really contradictory are the claims here that Europeans DEMAND all these features and WILL NOT BUY without them, and yet, in any number of cases quoted, best selling phones in Europe don't meeting these requirements. As I said, there seems to be a whole new RDF around European requirements.
post #62 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Second, it IS highly contradictory to claim something is 'crap' and then say that it sold boatloads.

I don't think so. McDonald's Big Mac, anyone? A more applicable example, maybe a RAZR?
post #63 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't think so. McDonald's Big Mac, anyone? A more applicable example, maybe a RAZR?

No, the Big Mac is 'crap' to only a portion of the population and if my experience is anything, a good number of that segment sneaks one in now and then From a business perspective a Big Mac is anything but 'crap' and that's what I thought we were talking about here - will the iPhone sell, in Europe, elsewhere, etc. Does is meet a market need, and a significant one, at that.
post #64 of 83
Quote:
"The most we can say" about this subject should be limited to verifiable evidence, TenoBell. I did narrow the window to a single quarter but I can't accept making up numbers to support my position.

I agree we cannot make up numbers. But we also know more N95's have been sold over that time.

Quote:
Well, if you look at current Nokia products, they list 87 different phone models in Europe. 38 of those are 3G smartphones. They aren't trying to get everyone to buy a N95.

I agree, but many people from Europe have held up the N95 as the phone to beat. That is why the focus has been on that one phone.

Quote:
Second, it IS highly contradictory to claim something is 'crap' and then say that it sold boatloads.

The contradiction is more in claiming that Europe has a higher taste for phones than the US, but then say the top selling phones in Europe are crap. That is the exact same situation as the US.
post #65 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gon View Post

For a N95-level feature set but a whole lot less teh ugly, the N82 is rumored to be out shortly.

Ooh, that looks a nice one. All the good points from the N95 but without the bulk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

"The most we can say" about this subject should be limited to verifiable evidence, TenoBell. I did narrow the window to a single quarter but I can't accept making up numbers to support my position.

But that's exactly what you did do, and I corrected, and you've still not admitted you were wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

The N95 was offered by another poster as the device with a feature list that "runs circles around the iPhone" (I believe that's how it was described), and it was claimed that EU sophistication demanded such features to capture market share. That's why the discussion shifted in that direction.

The N95 is currently Vodafone's 3rd best selling handset behind the Samsung G600 Ultraslim 5mp 3G phone and the more business like U700. It's Nokia's biggest seller on Vodafone.

I've not seen figures for other carriers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Aegis,

First, please be careful with your quotes. I believe that only the first quote is mine.

Sorry if I pasted the wrong line in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

Second, it IS highly contradictory to claim something is 'crap' and then say that it sold boatloads. If there was only 1 product, that would be fine but I think we can all agree that there are choices in the mobile phone market so CRAP shouldn't sell. That is, unless, the definition of CRAP is just someone's opinion, and not the markets. What's really contradictory are the claims here that Europeans DEMAND all these features and WILL NOT BUY without them, and yet, in any number of cases quoted, best selling phones in Europe don't meeting these requirements. As I said, there seems to be a whole new RDF around European requirements.

Loads of products sell by the boatload but are still crap. eg. Windows v MacOSX.

Since I mentioned it in this thread, here's the top sellers...

April for entire UK carriers - http://www.intomobile.com/2007/04/30...nokia-top.html

October for Vodafone - http://mobilementalism.com/2007/10/0...s-for-october/
post #66 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I don't think so. McDonald's Big Mac, anyone? A more applicable example, maybe a RAZR?

I thought my RAZR was the best phone I've ever owned, and I've owned Treo's, Blackberries, etc. Dependable service, good battery life, it fit in my pocket without a bulge - it did what I wanted it to do, and it felt solid.
Quote:
But that's exactly what you did do, and I corrected, and you've still not admitted you were wrong.

I've not found any evidence supporting any sales volume for the N95 other than "1.5 Mil". It's the only solid number available. If you've got a better sales volume figure for the N95 than that, please link it.
post #67 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

No, the Big Mac is 'crap' to only a portion of the population

I would think most people know it's crap but that doesn't stop them buying it. At least you know what you're getting.

With the iPhone though I think quite a few people will be surprised with what it doesn't do, unless they do their research beforehand.
post #68 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I've not found any evidence supporting any sales volume for the N95 other than "1.5 Mil". It's the only solid number available. If you've got a better sales volume figure for the N95 than that, please link it.

I've linked to it already - Nokia's financial report. It clearly states it's 1.5 million just in Q2, not from March to date as you stated.
post #69 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I would think most people know it's crap but that doesn't stop them buying it.

Exactly. I might still get one a few times a year, but I'm not confused to think it's a piece of quality. I'm also not confused to think that sub par products can't be high sellers.
post #70 of 83
Quote:
Since I mentioned it in this thread, here's the top sellers...

That list of top sellers are better phones than an equivalent list from the US. But they all follow the same basic and flawed rules for functionality. The flaw in these rules is that as you add more functions to the phone, the entire phone becomes more difficult to use. The iPhone has improved on this and that is what sets it apart.

Quote:
With the iPhone though I think quite a few people will be surprised with what it doesn't do, unless they do their research beforehand.

The difference being the iPhone does everything its designed to do well. I think that is more important for many people. Than to have a phone that does more but is mediocre.
post #71 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

I've linked to it already - Nokia's financial report. It clearly states it's 1.5 million just in Q2, not from March to date as you stated.

OK, so if you have more numbers to add to the sales volume figure for the N95, just link them.
post #72 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

That list of top sellers are better phones than an equivalent list from the US. But they all follow the same basic and flawed rules for functionality. The flaw in these rules is that as you add more functions to the phone, the entire phone becomes more difficult to use. The iPhone has improved on this and that is what sets it apart.

ok, but their basic functionality - phone, camera, text are all just as easy and running on better hardware for pretty much the entire list of phones there. Even the walkman phones in that list give the iPod interface a run for their money.

I guess the argument then is whether 'more difficult' is 'too difficult' and how much 'more' difficult they are. Personally, I've never found a phone 'too difficult' but some certainly aren't the fastest or easiest of things to use. Apple's iPhone UI is super lovely but I really just think it's spartan and simple because they've not implemented features yet rather than left them out deliberately. Time will tell. I think they'll add them.

On the opposite end, I'm sure some people find Apple's iPhone keyboard interface more difficult to use than a numberpad for texting. My partner has two daughters, 11 and 12. They both switch off T9 for texting on their phones. The predictive dictionary on the P990 I had (like Apple's) got in their way. But then the 12 year old knows how to download a song off the net, drop it into iTunes, show it in the Finder, open it in Audacity, reduce it to 64kbps mp3, edit it as a ringtone and send it to her phone via bluetooth. Then she sends it to her friends phones via bluetooth which they all have too. She did that without me telling her too - smartarse!

She's not interested in an iPhone because she can't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The difference being the iPhone does everything its designed to do well. I think that is more important for many people. Than to have a phone that does more but is mediocre.

So if Apple add video or MMS or Bluetooth file transfers in iPhone Firmware update 1.2 are you not going to upgrade because it destroys ease of use as originally designed?

When they add 3rd party apps, you're not going to install them?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

OK, so if you have more numbers to add to the sales volume figure for the N95, just link them.

What can I possibly link to that is better than Nokia's own financial results for completely destroying your assertion that they'd sold 1.5M to date ? You're fucking incredible man! Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society too?

Taskiss: The earth is flat
Me: No, it's a sphere. Here's a picture of it from space
Taskiss: Your picture is flat and proves my point. Find me a 3D image of it...
post #73 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

What can I possibly link to that is better than Nokia's own financial results for completely destroying your assertion that they'd sold 1.5M to date ? You're fucking incredible man! Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society too?.

The financial results didn't isolate N95 sales volumes except for 1.5 Mil in Q2. That's the only info about that particular model.

I didn't have a problem limiting the period when you pointed that out, I just have a problem with inflating the figures.

You don't seem to have a problem drawing a line with only one data point. I do.
post #74 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

Loads of products sell by the boatload but are still crap. eg. Windows v MacOSX.

Since I mentioned it in this thread, here's the top sellers...

April for entire UK carriers - http://www.intomobile.com/2007/04/30...nokia-top.html

October for Vodafone - http://mobilementalism.com/2007/10/0...s-for-october/

So now that we've come full circle maybe we can come to a reasonable conclusion. Most of these types of threads have stated (paraphrased of course) " the iPhone won't sell in Europe because its 'crap' because it doesn't have feature x, y, z.... and sophisticated Europeans wont' put up with that." Now we add to that that 'crap' sells well , even in Europe (Big Mac, Razr, etc.).

So we have - the iPhone will sell well in Europe.

I agree (please don't point out the philosophical conundrums in the above, I do recognize them but sarcasm has its place in pointing toward truth)

The problem with 'crap' is that its in the eye of the beholder. I think Apple has found a large, 'new' market that thinks the current phones are 'crap' and the iPhone isn't. That's all.
post #75 of 83
Quote:
ok, but their basic functionality - phone, camera, text are all just as easy and running on better hardware for pretty much the entire list of phones there. Even the walkman phones in that list give the iPod interface a run for their money.

Yes most of time the phone, camera, text have their own dedicated button and can be activated easily. But as you add more functions they cannot all have their own dedicated button. You get into menus and submenus. Much of the time its not clearly explained which submenu a function is under which causes people to hunt around and memorize where they are. Which subsequently make the full functionality of the phone more tedious.

With the iPhone there are no submenus. When you hit a button it opens new page and generally the function of that page is self explanatory.

Edit: I want to clarify. There are submenus in the iPhone, but mostly for settings and things you won't need to access very often. Most of the functions that are used everyday have their own easy to access page.

How do you define better hardware? None of those phones are running a desktop OS or desktop equivalent apps. Either Apple is very good at writing software or the iPhone must have very capable hardware.

Quote:
On the opposite end, I'm sure some people find Apple's iPhone keyboard interface more difficult to use than a numberpad for texting.

People predicated this argument on the assumption that tiny QWERTY keyboards and numberpad texting were easy to use from the start. People had to learn to use them and became accustomed to them. People will learn to use virtual keyboards and become accustomed the same way. In landscape view the keys on the iPhone's virtual keyboard are larger than the keys on a Blackberry or Treo.

Quote:
So if Apple add video or MMS or Bluetooth file transfers in iPhone Firmware update 1.2 are you not going to upgrade because it destroys ease of use as originally designed?

I don't believe it will destroy the ease of use as originally designed.
post #76 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

So now that we've come full circle maybe we can come to a reasonable conclusion. Most of these types of threads have stated (paraphrased of course) " the iPhone won't sell in Europe because its 'crap' because it doesn't have feature x, y, z.... and sophisticated Europeans wont' put up with that."

I agree. According to some, the lack of 3G will kill the iPhone. All the phones over there are 3G if you listen to some... So, I looked and what did I find?
Quote:
Currently, the market demand for 3G services is still insufficient. Only some 6 percent of the mobile users have such demand.

http://www.eetasia.com/ART_880046568...T_007c553c.HTM

And another like that shows 7.7%

http://www.mmetrics.com/press/PressR...207-eurolaunch

And here is data from the end of Q2 2007 - 8.7% of mobile connections in Europe were 3G enabled

http://www.cellular-news.com/story/26266.php

So you have somewhere between 6% and 8.7% of the people in Europe using 3G, but without it the iPhone is dead.

People have opinions and they consider them as valid as facts. Go figure.
post #77 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

The financial results didn't isolate N95 sales volumes except for 1.5 Mil in Q2. That's the only info about that particular model.

I didn't have a problem limiting the period when you pointed that out, I just have a problem with inflating the figures.

Other than having to explain it four times to you, no, you had no problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

You don't seem to have a problem drawing a line with only one data point. I do.

Except I didn't. I took reasonable guesses based on other indicative datapoints, ie. that it was the 3rd top selling phone for Vodafone in the UK in October and Nokia's biggest seller for them AND that in Q3 Nokia reported sales of it's N series were up 23% even though they'd only had two new handsets in that series that quarter and one of them was an 8GB N95.

I don't have a problem with that as a reasonable guess, which is what I described it as.
post #78 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by physguy View Post

So now that we've come full circle maybe we can come to a reasonable conclusion. Most of these types of threads have stated (paraphrased of course) " the iPhone won't sell in Europe because its 'crap' because it doesn't have feature x, y, z.... and sophisticated Europeans wont' put up with that." Now we add to that that 'crap' sells well , even in Europe (Big Mac, Razr, etc.).

So we have - the iPhone will sell well in Europe.

Get it right, it's 'expensive crap'.

I'm sure it'll sell loads despite the current limitations and price. It's got an Apple logo on it and costs way too much. Instant hit for that alone.

Incidentally, your examples of crap that sells well here are both American - go figure!
post #79 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I agree. According to some, the lack of 3G will kill the iPhone. All the phones over there are 3G if you listen to some... So, I looked and what did I find?

http://www.eetasia.com/ART_880046568...T_007c553c.HTM

Couldn't read it without logging in. Sorry, not worth the effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

And another like that shows 7.7%

http://www.mmetrics.com/press/PressR...207-eurolaunch

Dated February 2006. Come on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

And here is data from the end of Q2 2007 - 8.7% of mobile connections in Europe were 3G enabled

http://www.cellular-news.com/story/26266.php

So you skipped the point of the article that...

"In the second quarter of 2007, for the first time, the majority of net additions were to W-CDMA services, with 8.0m of the 14.5m new connections made being 3G capable - a proportion of 55%."

And you also skipped my early post of Vodadone's top sellers which were all 3G enabled bar two cheaper, older phones?

And you've not spotted all other smartphones this year have been 3G?

And you missed Steve Jobs saying he was after 1% of the market?

And you missed the fact the iPhone's an expensive smartphone?

And you missed the fact we don't have an EDGE network because we all installed 3G towers here in Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

So you have somewhere between 6% and 8.7% of the people in Europe using 3G, but without it the iPhone is dead.

People have opinions and they consider them as valid as facts. Go figure.

Yet 55% of them are buying 3G handsets with many having no intention of using 3G data services. Do you think iPhone buyers will be in the 'likely to use data services' or the 'not likely to' section of the populace?
post #80 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post

G
Incidentally, your examples of crap that sells well here are both American - go figure!

Yep, we American's aren't afraid to sell people what they really want in their heart of hearts, not only what they're supposed to want. And we aren't afraid to value-price
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