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Jobs: Mac & TV Won't Merge

post #1 of 25
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<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020107/tc/tech_apple_jobs_dc_1.html" target="_blank">Read the article</a>.
post #2 of 25
I tend to agree with Jobs on this one, and I have thought this ever since the whole "convergence" thing started. Consumer electronics companies rule the TV world, and will continue to do so. That is not Apple's place, and there are going to be quite a few PC companies struggling with their own identity crisis. Instead the personal computer will interact with all the embedded computers in the home, to control them, take data from the, and feed data to them. The personal computer will focus on things it is good at, which happens to be where the Mac's roots are. Its good to see that Jobs, at least, carries this vision as well.
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post #3 of 25
I think this points out very nicely the difference between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft sees the brain-dead couch potatos as part of their natural market, and have hatched the XBox as a way to suck them in. Apple, on the other hand, wants to cater to the intelligent, creative people - those who want to DO something rather than be passively entertained.

Unfotunately, that is also why Apple has only a 5% market share...
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post #4 of 25
[quote]I think this points out very nicely the difference between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft sees the brain-dead couch potatos as part of their natural market, and have hatched the XBox as a way to suck them in. Apple, on the other hand, wants to cater to the intelligent, creative people - those who want to DO something rather than be passively entertained.<hr></blockquote>
I think it points out some differences as well. Microsoft has the money and resources to enter a market even if they can't be competitive with version 1(or 2 or 3 like IE vs Netscape). Gaming is a big and growing market based around technology. Why wouldn't the world's biggest tech company take a shot at it? However the xbox isn't ms's only focus, they cater to lots of customers. Gaming isn't passive entertainment BTW.
post #5 of 25
[quote]Steve Jobs: "Macs and TVs won't merge"<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020107/tc/tech_apple_jobs_dc_1.html" target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020107/tc/tech_apple_jobs_dc_1. html</a>

Looks like we will have to go elsewhere for our "Digital Hub", and if your "Digital Lifestyle" includes watching or surfing TV then you will need to resort to other brands.

Sony has just released it's Vaio MXS10 line which includes FM & TV tuners and TiVo licenced PVR (personal video recording) to hard drive. It's design is what I would envision a future PowerMac would look like.

<a href="http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/mx/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/mx/index.shtml</a>

One ray of hope for Apple users is that someone else will come out with a product that will allow Apple to join this "Golden Convergence", with or without Apple's help.

Steve Perlman, a former Apple Computer hardware designer and co-founder of WebTV, will introduce a digital television set-top box called Moxi that hopefully will have Mac OSX compatibility via it's built in FireWire port. This is the "One more thing" that I hoped for at MWSF, but alas, the other Steve's aversion to all things TV apparently has "steved" that concept.

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/07/technology/ebusiness/07GADG.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/07/technology/ebusiness/07GADG.html</a>

Personal note to Steve Jobs: Hey Steve I know you are a vegetarian, but in your vision there is a blind spot. Televison is a big part of the Digital Lifestyle - so where's the beef? Your "Digital Hub" is missing a spoke.

[ pesky NY Times URL... - Amorph ]

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
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post #6 of 25
I agree that the Mac should not merge with the TV...but the other way around wouldn't be so bad. I can't think of a reason not to have an HDTV tuner in the Mac ...
post #7 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Aphelion:
<strong>

Personal note to Steve Jobs: Hey Steve I know you are a vegetarian, but in your vision there is a blind spot. Televison is a big part of the Digital Lifestyle - so where's the beef? Your "Digital Hub" is missing a spoke.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Steve's out of his mind if he thinks television and PC's won't merge - he should be thanked for saving Apple in the '90's, and sent on his way in his corporate Jet ASAP if he's going to let Microsoft eat Apple's lunch on this one. Apple WILL NOT SURVIVE if they ignore this battle, since nobody's going to to buy a "digital hub" from Apple, if the "digital hub" from Microsoft is both cheaper, and handles TV while Apple's doesn't, end of discussion.

... I just saw the technology demonstration of XP by Bill Gates, it's pure prositioning - the products itself isn't ready, fine - this is the demonstration that SHOULD HAVE been given by Steve Jobs & Apple, to demonstrate OSX's ability for a removable tablet, remote windowing, full media control. He doesn't even have to promise an actual product, hell Bill never really does either. Sadly, the demonstration by Bill gates is far more revolutionary than the demonstration by Steve on the same day ... a very bad sign.

The worst part is, the technology to do this is already inside of OSX, but they don't even bother to leaverage what they've already got ... they're going to wait a year or two, for Microsoft catch up and surpass them again in yet another area.

The future does not look bright people, if Steve think's TVs and PC won't merge in some form and therefore won't require an OS to manage the new hybrid ... he should quit right now. Quicktime, MPEG-4, velocity engine, hell ... Apple would do better to hire a 14 year old for 5 minutes as CEO, get all his ideas, and then merely hire Steve back to impliment them.

Will somebody please tell me what's going on? Because none of this makes any sense.
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post #8 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Aphelion:
<strong>

<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020107/tc/tech_apple_jobs_dc_1.html" target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020107/tc/tech_apple_jobs_dc_1. html</a>

Looks like we will have to go elsewhere for our "Digital Hub", and if your "Digital Lifestyle" includes watching or surfing TV then you will need to resort to other brands.

Sony has just released it's Vaio MXS10 line which includes FM & TV tuners and TiVo licenced PVR (personal video recording) to hard drive. It's design is what I would envision a future PowerMac would look like.

<a href="http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/mx/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/mx/index.shtml</a>

One ray of hope for Apple users is that someone else will come out with a product that will allow Apple to join this "Golden Convergence", with or without Apple's help.

Steve Perlman, a former Apple Computer hardware designer and co-founder of WebTV, will introduce a digital television set-top box called Moxi that hopefully will have Mac OSX compatibility via it's built in FireWire port. This is the "One more thing" that I hoped for at MWSF, but alas, the other Steve's aversion to all things TV apparently has "steved" that concept.

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/07/technology/ebusiness/07GADG.html" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/07/technology/ebusiness/07GADG.html</a>

Personal note to Steve Jobs: Hey Steve I know you are a vegetarian, but in your vision there is a blind spot. Televison is a big part of the Digital Lifestyle - so where's the beef? Your "Digital Hub" is missing a spoke.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Where's the BEEF? You know Dave Thomas just died?

I like the Sony's mouse. A lot like the old apple mouse that was great before the stupid puck. Did Ives design the stupid puck, too?

I really would like a PVR, too.

[ pesky NYT URL - Amorph ]

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
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post #9 of 25
This is Apple's secret weapon. Features listed below are from <a href="http://www.moxi.com/product.htm" target="_blank">Apple's Website</a> ! New features include

Five Great Products In One

Groundbreaking technology brings together the functionality of more than five advanced products into one sleek package, the CineMac Center. With CineMac, you get:

*\tDigital cable or satellite receiver
Tune 150+ channels of crystal-clear digital audio and video.

*\tDigital Music Jukebox
Store hundreds of your CDs on the Moxi Media Center's hard drive and download your favorite songs from the latest digital music services. Create playlists, find and purchase music, and download songs to your MP3 player to bring your music with you.

*\tPersonal Video Recorder (PVR)
Pause and rewind live TV. Record and save up to 60 hours (or, hundreds of hours with expansion 1394 drives) of your favorite shows and movies from any TV in the house.

*\tDVD Player
Play your favorite CDs and DVDs from the Moxi Media Center's built-in player.

*\tCable/DSL Modem and Internet Gateway
Access the Internet at blazing speeds from any computer in your home and know that the built-in Firewall will protect your computers.

OK. So someone else actually released it. This is exactly what I had hoped Apple would release. They would have done it better.

If you think about it, most TV's function as monitors now anyway. I have the video in coming from my satellite. Audio out goes through my amp. My TV just shows the picture. And with CRTs slowly giving way to Plasmas and HDTV's, who the hell is gonna tell the differnce between TVs and monitors in the future?!?
post #10 of 25
[quote]I think this points out very nicely the difference between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft sees the brain-dead couch potatos as part of their natural market, and have hatched the XBox as a way to suck them in. Apple, on the other hand, wants to cater to the intelligent, creative people - those who want to DO something rather than be passively entertained.<hr></blockquote>

Then how do you explain Pippin?

If Apple had managed to do something like the X-Box, people would be cheering them on for creating a kick-ass game system
post #11 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
<strong>

Then how do you explain Pippin?

If Apple had managed to do something like the X-Box, people would be cheering them on for creating a kick-ass game system</strong><hr></blockquote>

How many Pippins were sold?

No, if Apple came out with an X-Box you'd be saying it isn't future proof becaue you can't upgrade the video card...
post #12 of 25
I think that Jobs is at least partially right -- for the time being, most peoples' TV watching and computer using are done in vastly different settings, and aren't ripe for merging. This will change over time, and even though some of us (like me! ) are ready for it, I understand that most people aren't. It's a shame, since OS X would make a great PVR platform. But I'm sure OS XI will make a better one.

That said, I'd still like to see, and expect, Apple to get into HDTV authoring. (Doesn't FCP support HDTV?) Of course, they could really use some cabling standards first.

Alex, who really does want a MacHDTiVo.
post #13 of 25
I think it is wise not to merge the two, at least until it can be done more elequently that today. Wires are the enemy of the non tech savy. S-video cables run 25 feet max without problems and even then ground loops can occur if the devices are plugged into seperate outlets (or even the same outlet actually since the ground for your cable outlet for your TV may differ from your computer's ground - this is why TV's and Amplifiers have no ground plug). RF is not really a great solution either. A set-top box should be just that. I use my microwave oven every day and I don't think that that should be included in a digital hub!
post #14 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by SpiffyGuyC:
<strong>I agree that the Mac should not merge with the TV...but the other way around wouldn't be so bad. I can't think of a reason not to have an HDTV tuner in the Mac ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is a nice idea in therory but when you consider that Apple's consumer products don't have any pci slots ... of course there's always firewire. Watching TV on my Mac would be nice (was before using my old Xclaim VR card). Wish ATI still made a VR model (since the MAC Radeons don't have video in!!)
post #15 of 25
It's a nice thought, but I don't think I'd want to bother with my Mac doing all of that PVR crap.

I'd rather see Apple interface with phones (caller id, voice mail, cell phones, VoIP, contact storage, "hold" with music of your choice, and even remotely accessing your Mac (email, web, etc) via telephone), PDAs (Palm and WinCE syncing, and other useful features), and embed itself with the home (remote control/home automation/smart home type stuff). TV is already.. just fine how it is. I like watching TV occasionally, just about as much as I like to read (non-magazines), but I don't want Apple to "glom" all that into the digital hub.
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post #16 of 25
This isn't about some golden convergence with your toaster and microwave. This is about simply ignoring the most used (soon to be digital) electronic appliance in the house.

If you took a poll of the public and simply ask them this:

How many hours per week do you spend taking digital video footage and listening to mp3 and how many hours per week do you watch TV?

Okay, you think that is unfair because it is passive watching? What if you had the opportunity to watch TV, but then on your Mac, rip that "herding cats" commercial (which could be done in a future iMovie3); overlaying the mp3 of Copeland's Grand Canyon Suite, and add it to the video of your cat sleeping on the window sill and put it on your iDisk website. Wouldn't that be cool? All without VCR's and tapes and wires everywhere....one coaxial to the back of the Mac.

That ain't no passive use of TV, it is the active harvesting of the most pervasive and accessible medium of popular culture on Earth. And it could be done so that copywrites could be protected.

You still don't want to watch TV on a Mac monitor? Why do they come with DVD drives then? In 5 years 36" flat-panel screens will be accessible to the masses and even though that is a life-time in digital years, that is less of a headstart then the original Mac was in its field of desktop publishing.

Desktop Broadcasting. We are closer to that then you might think.
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post #17 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by MacGregor:
<strong>This isn't about some golden convergence with your toaster and microwave. This is about simply ignoring the most used (soon to be digital) electronic appliance in the house.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Soon to be digital.

When it's digital, Apple will probably look at it. Until then, it requires a dedicated jack and a converter and a bunch of other hardware that would serve no other purpose. If TV on a Mac is valuable to you, buy a Formac ProTV.

[quote]<strong>Okay, you think that is unfair because it is passive watching? What if you had the opportunity to watch TV, but then on your Mac, rip that "herding cats" commercial (which could be done in a future iMovie3); overlaying the mp3 of Copeland's Grand Canyon Suite, and add it to the video of your cat sleeping on the window sill and put it on your iDisk website. Wouldn't that be cool?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure. But considering the industry's reaction to TiVo and the other, more liberal service whose name I'm forgetting, what are the odds that'll happen? The music, TV and movie industries are hellbent on annihilating fair use. You couldn't rip a commercial off a DVD right now without resorting to deep (and illegal) hackery. What makes you believe that a digital TV stream would be any different?

Even if hell freezes over and the industry allows such a thing to happen, it'll happen when the medium goes digital. Then you'd just plug in a FireWire cable and software would handle the rest. As with the rest of the digital hub.

[quote]<strong>That ain't no passive use of TV, it is the active harvesting of the most pervasive and accessible medium of popular culture on Earth.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's certainly not what MS is interested in. They're interested in promoting "interactive" television in Windows to become a central clearing house for valuable customer data, and for any of the sort of transactions that marketers (and no-one else) have been salivating over for years: Clicking on Ally McBeal's blouse to order one for yourself, that sort of silliness.

Apple won't be interested until: TV is digital, and you can use it to create something.

[quote]<strong>You still don't want to watch TV on a Mac monitor? Why do they come with DVD drives then?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You don't want to listen to music over Mac speakers? Why do they come with CD drives then?

I'm currently kicking myself for recommending the baseline iBook to my mom. She's eyeing the new Britannica, which comes on DVD.

Of course, you can watch movies too, but that's for when there isn't a TV handy.

[quote]<strong>In 5 years 36" flat-panel screens will be accessible to the masses</strong><hr></blockquote>

We'll see where Apple is in five years then. It depends on a number of variables, not many of which are under Apple's control.

[quote]<strong>Desktop Broadcasting. We are closer to that then you might think.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, between iMovie and QTSS, we're very nearly there. Everything's in place except the bandwidth.

But that is only tangentially related to Desktop Receiving, which is what TV-on-Mac really is.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
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post #18 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>
Even if hell freezes over and the industry allows such a thing to happen, it'll happen when the medium goes digital. Then you'd just plug in a FireWire cable and software would handle the rest. As with the rest of the digital hub.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We're already there. HAVi's here folks, finally. You can credit <a href="http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com" target="_blank">Mitsubishi and their Net Command system</a> for being the first. I should mention that Mitsubishi is the number one seller of big-screen TVs (and thus HDTVs) in the world.

Apple better get off their a$$ on this one, and quick.
post #19 of 25
[quote]brain-dead<hr></blockquote>

Brain-dead=Windows user.
post #20 of 25
I've been hammering this point in a couple different threads, but it's worth repeating-

It is simply moronic to think that computers and TVs won't merge. Even these elitist "creative" types will have to confess to the appeal of being able to easily record "Tess of The Dabuervilles" and stream it to any Mac/TV in their house while taking a break from their formally hosted poetry readings.

If Steve is adopting this hippie, intellectual ethic about his baby then why the hell did he ever put DVDs in them? People have even less desire to watch DVDs on their computer than they do to watch TV.

Why do you climb a mountain? Because it's there. Why does a dog lick his balls? Because he can. Why do you integrate TV into a mac? Because Microsoft most certainly will integrate it into windows.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Nordstrodamus ]</p>

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post #21 of 25
Well as much as I don't want too I tend to agree with Steve on this. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have a MacPVR and some software is being developed for PCI tuner cards that do just that (on sourceforge xtv). It (xtv) still has a ways to go but it's gonna be here...

But when Steve says he doesn't see the Mac and the TV merge... Well other than a PVR and Playing QT Movies, anything else the Mac could do while viewed on TODAYS TV's would look like crap. Ever seen a Computer connected to a regular TV before? Well it isn't exactly pretty. You don't think you're gonna get 1024x768 on it do you (not even those with a 40" big screen) HDTV has to kick in and it still hasn't...

How many here have HDTV? I'm sure some do since we geeks like to live on the cutting edge (see my setup below) but the rest of the world has yet to 'buy in' and untill they come down in price people today are STILL buying the cheaper non-HD ready sets by a wide margin.

I think Steve will change his mind but not till HDTV has a good chunk of the market.

Oh and the truth is MOST of us here DO have HDTV ready screens but they are connected to your computer and too small for any real TV experience. Unless you want a 17" or 19" TV in your TV room.

19" TV?!?! Heck, not me for me! I have a 3' screen with a DLP 1024x768 projector... Oh and my Mac looks fantastic connected to it but most people are NOT like me.

Dave

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
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post #22 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by DaveGee:
<strong>HDTV has to kick in and it still hasn't...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

The price difference between HDTV and analog has been dropping at roughly 50% a year so ubiquitous HDTV isn't far off. Also, computer users as a demographic will be quicker to get HDTV than the general population. As for the "cool, can your computer do that" factor I think we are already there with respect to PVR and HDTV.

But the imminent arrival of HDTV really speaks to the insanity of Jobs position. Will we actually be in a situation where our computers merely need to listen (have a tuner) in order to pick up the pre-encoded digital TV signals saturating the airwaves, but they will be purposefully made deaf in this area?

BTW, looked at the xTV thing- interesting. I wonder what Jobs would do if he found out there was so much demand for TV integration that open source took care of it.

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post #23 of 25
[quote]Originally posted by hir:
<strong>This is Apple's secret weapon. Features listed below are from <a href="http://www.moxi.com/product.htm" target="_blank">Apple's Website</a> ! New features include

Five Great Products In One

Groundbreaking technology brings together the functionality of more than five advanced products into one sleek package, the CineMac Center. With CineMac, you get:

*\tDigital cable or satellite receiver
Tune 150+ channels of crystal-clear digital audio and video.

*\tDigital Music Jukebox
Store hundreds of your CDs on the Moxi Media Center's hard drive and download your favorite songs from the latest digital music services. Create playlists, find and purchase music, and download songs to your MP3 player to bring your music with you.

*\tPersonal Video Recorder (PVR)
Pause and rewind live TV. Record and save up to 60 hours (or, hundreds of hours with expansion 1394 drives) of your favorite shows and movies from any TV in the house.

*\tDVD Player
Play your favorite CDs and DVDs from the Moxi Media Center's built-in player.

*\tCable/DSL Modem and Internet Gateway
Access the Internet at blazing speeds from any computer in your home and know that the built-in Firewall will protect your computers.

OK. So someone else actually released it. This is exactly what I had hoped Apple would release. They would have done it better.

If you think about it, most TV's function as monitors now anyway. I have the video in coming from my satellite. Audio out goes through my amp. My TV just shows the picture. And with CRTs slowly giving way to Plasmas and HDTV's, who the hell is gonna tell the differnce between TVs and monitors in the future?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It appears this only works on cable/dish.

Why can't it record off-air antenna live programs?
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post #24 of 25
[quote]I think this points out very nicely the difference between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft sees the brain-dead couch potatos as part of their natural market, and have hatched the XBox as a way to suck them in. Apple, on the other hand, wants to cater to the intelligent, creative people - those who want to DO something rather than be passively entertained.<hr></blockquote>
Excuse me while I either puke from the mindless repetition of marketing speak, or die laughing from your obvious lack of critical facility.

How is sitting in front of a computer and ripping mp3's or entering keywords in iPhoto a creative act? To me its not much different than trying to choose a program to watch on television.

Apple doesn't cater to intelligent, creative people, it markets products that in a way that hopes to appeal to said people. How much user creativity is there in Apple's iApps packages--really. iPhoto does everything but scratch your ass, as does iDVD. It is Apple's version of creativity laid over a UI that enables people to "tastefully" cobble together "personal memories." If you haven't seen it before think of Martha Stewart, and other lifestyle companies like the Gap, or Banana Republic, where things are put together for you. This of course doesn't negate anyone from really interesting and transgressive uses, but that isn't apple main goal for iApps. Its tasteful lifestyle goo masquaerading as the creative act [except iMovie of course].

Channel-surfing can be a more creative act.

Apple has the tech to play the TV game--802.11, firewire and a *nix based OS. They just aren't interested.

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>
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post #25 of 25
I'm pretty ignorant about the technology and politics behind the current evolution of TV, but it still seems to me that Apple is simply too small to be a leader in the integration of TV and the PC. If this convergence idea is to become reality, it's going to take cooperation (and competition) between many companies and organizations, of which Microsoft is only one and perhaps not even the most important.

For now, I think Jobs is right to downplay the idea: most of these ideas put forth by Gates et al, while "revolutionary" on their face, are kind of inane and of little practical value, basically the kind of thing you would expect from an industry that grew up watching Star Trek. I think Jobs is playing his cards close to his vest, to see which way the wind is blowing; then, when a useful standard or protocol appears ready to emerge, he can position Apple to take advantage of it with relative ease (since, as has been pointed out, Apple has the technological underpinnings). I think that's probably the best we can hope for--Apple is not going to lead this revolution, but may still end up profiting from it.
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