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The Biggest Threat to Obama's Health Care "Reform" - Reality - Page 29

post #1121 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The person or persons shouting the slurs were obviously out of line. However one line in the story made me feel that this guy was simply making political hay for the bill and trying to draw a line to his civil rights days.

Never since that time has he heard any of those words called out. Since I live in the US and have been out on the streets I know for a fact that this is bull. Unless he has lived a VERY insulated life since then.

So to recap. Bad form for the slurs being called out. BS for the political hay being made from it by the receiver. Suppose that make me a racist as well...

Trying to draw a line to his civil rights days?

When right wing protesters scream the word NIGGER! at you, it probably does take you back to the previous times right wing protesters shouted NIGGER! at you, yes.

Hes entitled to the comparison. It fits, and if those right wing protesters didnt want the comparison drawn, it might have been better if they hadnt shouted NIGGER! at a civil rights veteran.
post #1122 of 2360
Stupak just announced he will support the bill, giving the Dems enough votes to pass it.

The US will soon be closer to the world standard in health care. Still needs a public option and some tweaking, but that seems to be coming. Today a major step in the right direction will be made.

 

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post #1123 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The US will soon be closer to the world standard in health care.

That's what we're afraid of.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Still needs a public option and some tweaking, but that seems to be coming.

Yes, the takeover isn't completed. This is just the next step in the plan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

Today a major step in the right direction will be made.

It's a major step alright. In the right direction? That remains to be seen.

It will be years before anyone could truthfully call this action being a reform. Claiming it before hand is merely a hope, expectation or even wishful thinking.

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post #1124 of 2360
MJ1970, you claimed that private health care would be restricted after this bill is passed.

I asked you to name another democratic country with national health care where this is the case.

Could you name a country? Then we can continue this debate.
post #1125 of 2360
A guy in the gallery disrupted the proceedings and WAS CHEERED BY GOPPERS.

Disruption from the gallery is BANNED. What about supporting it?

Three Repubs also supposedly went outside and held up signs saying Kill The Bill, the very phrase the protestor spouted in the chamber.

 

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post #1126 of 2360
Sorry if this has already been posted, but I found it to be an interesting read: National Health Care: Medicine in Germany 1918-1945

Notable quote:

Quote:
In the United States the medical profession operates in a mixed (not a national socialist) economy which does not yet have the institutionalized mechanisms of control and regulation of Weimar Germany and in a democratic political system which thankfully does not have the political ideology of the Third Reich. But the “banality of evil” described by Hannah Arendt in the Third Reich may stem largely from a government bureaucracy in which 90 percent of the people think 90 percent of the time about process—not purpose. Does the modern bureaucratization of medicine hold any real risk for a possible return with new health reforms and new medical technologies—to some of the horrors of National Socialist medicine? Removal of personal responsibility (“I was only following orders”), personal authority, and personal choice in a bureaucratized system may leave less and less room for individual ethics in the conduct of medical science and practice.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #1127 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

MJ1970, you claimed that private health care would be restricted after this bill is passed.

I made no such claim.

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post #1128 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I found it to be an interesting read: National Health Care: Medicine in Germany 1918-1945

Notable quote:

Yes, that's very interesting indeed.

One only needs to look at Canada, and Norway, and Portugal and the Republic of Ireland, among others, to see the dangerous consequences of instituting a national health service of a far more comprehensive kind than that proposed by this bill.

If youre trying to imply that Americas about to become a fascist state, take it up with MJ1970. He thinks communisms on the way. You cant both be right.

If youre not, then you might want to try and find material that, you know, doesnt make an implicit comparison between Nazi Germany and the United States. Its sort of hysterical.
post #1129 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I made no such claim.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...postcount=1106

Quote:
Your faith is admirable.

So clarify. Do you or do you not believe that private health care will be restricted when this bill is passed?
post #1130 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

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So clarify. Do you or do you not believe that private health care will be restricted when this bill is passed?

I think that the further government sticks its controlling and parasitic hands into any market (health otherwise) the greater the probability that it will create restrictions and mandates upon the private players in that market. Will that happen immediately and as a direct result of this bill> I have no idea. I would say it goes directly to the question I asked of tonton about what makes him so certain that medical practitioners would, given an option, continue to accept government payments. Additionally given the health insurance mandate for private individuals it is clear that the government is not above making mandates upon private choices and actions of various kinds. Why private health care services would escape their watchful eye is beyond me. Thus the statement, anyone who believe there will be further intrusions, mandates, controls, restrictions and bans has greater faith than I do.

Does that clarify it for you or do I need to use bright colors, big shapes and smaller words?

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post #1131 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You cant both be right.

Actually that's only true after a simplistic analysis and understanding of these things. The fact is that the economic system of the U.S. is blend of socialism (which doesn't really have much to do with presidents wearing uniforms and giving speeches on holidays as you have so ludicrously suggested in the past), fascism and the free market.

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post #1132 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

If youre not, then you might want to try and find material that, you know, doesnt make an implicit comparison between Nazi Germany and the United States. Its sort of hysterical.

Only for people who cannot see past the Nazi part and go to a deeper understanding and analysis.

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post #1133 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I think that the further government sticks its controlling and parasitic hands into any market (health otherwise) the greater the probability that it will create restrictions and mandates upon the private players in that market. Will that happen immediately and as a direct result of this bill> I have no idea. I would say it goes directly to the question I asked of tonton about what makes him so certain that medical practitioners would, given an option, continue to accept government payments. Additionally given the health insurance mandate for private individuals it is clear that the government is not above making mandates upon private choices and actions of various kinds. Why private health care services would escape their watchful eye is beyond me. Thus the statement, anyone who believe there will be further intrusions, mandates, controls, restrictions and bans has greater faith than I do.

Does that clarify it for you or do I need to use bright colors, big shapes and smaller words?

No. That's fine. It's excellent that you finally found the courage to answer a direct question, albeit on the third time of asking.

Understanding that you do believe that private health care will be restricted when this bill is passed, would you like to name any democratic country with a national health service where private health care is restricted?
post #1134 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No. That's fine. It's excellent that you finally found the courage to answer a direct question, albeit on the third time of asking.

Understanding that you do believe that private health care will be restricted when this bill is passed, would you like to name any democratic country with a national health service where private health care is restricted?

I ignored because you misrepresented (or at least misunderstood) what I said. Since you are continuing with this, I see no reason to continue arguing with your misrepresentations of my positions. That seems decidedly unfruitful. I don't...how you say...have time for this.

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post #1135 of 2360
So it looks like everything has fallen into place. The anti-abortion Dems just said they were all voting for it. "Demon Slaughter" is out. Anyone know the timeline for senate action on the reconciliation parts? August 2011?
post #1136 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I ignored because you misrepresented (or at least misunderstood) what I said. Since you are continuing with this, I see no reason to continue arguing with your misrepresentations of my positions. That seems decidedly unfruitful. I don't...how you say...have time for this.

I merely asked you a question. Three times. When you finally responded, it turns out I was exactly right in my assumption.

You want to make statements, and when I ask you to debate them in the simplest terms, you dont want to defend them.

One can only assume it's because you know you can't.
post #1137 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I merely asked you a question. Three times. When you finally responded, it turns out I was exactly right in my assumption.

Or you weren't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

One can only assume it's because you know you can't.

One could and could be wrong.

This is tiresome.

Tell you what, we don't really need to have the debate. Let's just sit back and watch.

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post #1138 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Or you weren't.




One could and could be wrong.

This is tiresome.

Tell you what, we don't really need to have the debate. Let's just sit back and watch.

Good point.

Looks like they have the votes. This is very exciting.
post #1139 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is very exciting.

If by "exciting" you mean unsettling, disappointing, revolting (at the raw display of power, force and sleaze), then I agree.

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post #1140 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

So it looks like everything has fallen into place. The anti-abortion Dems just said they were all voting for it. "Demon Slaughter" is out. Anyone know the timeline for senate action on the reconciliation parts? August 2011?

Wow, I just saw that. So I take it they are voting for the Senate bill as it stands? That's what they would have to do. They can only amend it after it actually becomes a law.

It doesn't matter anyway. There legal actions brought concerning this bill are going to make Election 2000 look like a field day. 37 states have either stated they will sue, or are considering such actions. This thing will be tied up in court for years...well beyond the time that the Republicans overturn the whole damn thing.
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post #1141 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

It doesn't matter anyway. There legal actions brought concerning this bill are going to make Election 2000 look like a field day. 37 states have either stated they will sue, or are considering such actions. This thing will be tied up in court for years...well beyond the time that the Republicans overturn the whole damn thing.

I hope you're right. The Democrats have done everything possible to ram this shit up the ass of America. I suspect they will pay for this in three ways: 1) 2010, 2) 2012 (and likely beyond), 3) this thing could all get over turned anyway.

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post #1142 of 2360
Maybe the U.S. can learn from Sweden.

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post #1143 of 2360
What happened to involuntary_serf? MJ1970, do you know?
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #1144 of 2360
I would certainly encourage the Republicans to run on repealing this legislation. I think they well do very well.

Yes. Sarah Palin running on a "repeal the bill" manifesto. The Democrats will be toast. Toast.
post #1145 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

So it looks like everything has fallen into place. The anti-abortion Dems just said they were all voting for it. "Demon Slaughter" is out. Anyone know the timeline for senate action on the reconciliation parts? August 2011?

The next few days in the senate is likely.

The public option will be included in another bill. They'll pick one that gives it the strongest chance of passing, whether in a 60 vote or reconciliation. It will definitely pass and become a part of the overall healthcare reform. Just to clarify, there are more than 50 senators who have said they will vote for the PO and so reconciliation is highly likely.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #1146 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

I would certainly encourage the Republicans to run on repealing this legislation. I think they well do very well.

Yes. Sarah Palin running on a "repeal the bill" manifesto. The Democrats will be toast. Toast.

Considering that most Americans are against it, you're probably right.

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post #1147 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Considering that most Americans are against it, you're probably right.

Roughly 40% who were polled that were against this bill were against it because they thought it didn't go far enough. Once that PO gets in, a lot of those people will be for it. That will make it a very popular bill.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #1148 of 2360
Republican David Frum says this is the Republican party's Waterloo.
Quote:
Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

Wow.
post #1149 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Roughly 40% who were polled that were against this bill were against it because they thought it didn't go far enough. Once that PO gets in, a lot of those people will be for it. That will make it a very popular bill.

No amount of lipstick is going to make this pig a princess.

In the end this will be like every other entitlement program. Net receivers will be thrilled. Net payers not so much. The problem is, you won't be able to keep bribing the net recipients from a shrinking pool of net payers. There ain't no free lunches. Put another way, the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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post #1150 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Republican David Frum says this is the Republican party's Waterloo. Wow.

Wow indeed! Someone on that side really get's it for a change. It sounds like the republicans and the right are close to having to accept the inevitable. The republicans must break with the Neocons, The Tea parties, the Becks, the Palins, and the Limbaughs and become the Republican party again or fade into obscurity.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #1151 of 2360
Frum will be dismissed in three, two, one...

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #1152 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Wow indeed! Someone on that side really get's it for a change.

Wherein "gets it" means "agrees with my assessment of the situation."

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post #1153 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Wherein "gets it" means "agrees with my assessment of the situation."

Well....not just mine I'm afraid.
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post #1154 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

Republican David Frum says this is the Republican party's Waterloo. Wow.

Is the the same David Frum that slightly more the 24 hours earlier wrote this:

Quote:
Not everything about the Democrats healthcare proposals is bad from a free-market, limited-government point of view. But enough is bad that if I were a member of the House of Representatives, I would determinedly vote nay.

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post #1155 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Well....not just mine I'm afraid.

Good for you. You do realize that just because a lot of people agree with you doesn't mean you're right don't you?

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post #1156 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Good for you. You do realize that just because a lot of people agree with you doesn't mean you're right don't you?

You do realize the reverse is also true don't you?
However because most agree with my view that's the way it's going to be.
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post #1157 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

You do realize the reverse is also true don't you?

Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

However because most agree with my view that's the way it's going to be.

Huh?

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post #1158 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes.




Huh?

This is a democracy no matter how trumpy spells it.

Even If I saw things your way because most see it that way that's the way it's going to be.
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post #1159 of 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

This is a democracy no matter how trumpy spells it.

Even If I saw things your way because most see it that way that's the way it's going to be.

Oh, right. I got you know. Yeah, lots of idiots can agree and vote on something and make it so. Sadly, that doesn't remove the highly predictable negative consequences. So, yes, we agree. Lots of people can agree on the wrong thing and make the wrong choice. No doubt of that.

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post #1160 of 2360
President Obama should have included two provisions that would have DRASTICALLY lowered the opposition to the bill:

1) Allow insurance companies to sell policies across state lines on a regional basis. That means in any state we could choose between 15 to 20 different insurance plans, and the competition for customers will at once cut the price of premiums substantially.

2) Allow small businesses under 50 total employees in size to join a buying pool to do large scale group buys of the 15 to 20 different plans I mentioned above. A large scale group buy would spread the risk over a large group of people, cutting the premium cost even further.
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