I think the whole thing is a PR war both on the part of Palm and Apple and Palm may have just scored a direct hit.
This kind of stuff points directly to the flaw in Apple's tendency to be secretive. While it's generally a brilliant strategy not to talk about what they are doing and while it's served them very well in the past, now that they have such a high public profile and are in the news all the time, getting new customers etc., I think it works against them in many ways.
For new products its still a great strategy, but for software less so in that smaller developers sometimes get blindsided. Now that Apple is trying to get some of the bigger developers and partners on board the Apple express there is a danger of totally screwing over some of those same partners because they refuse to get into describing a road map in even the most general of terms.
In this specific case, involved as it is with issues of monopoly and market dominance it's just foolish to remain silent IMO. A simple announcement that they are specifically doing this thing for a specific reason, and perhaps even announcing the intention to allow *licensed* syncing of other devices in the future, or even pointing out that iTunes is all XML and can be easily linked to would go a long way. In cases like this the silent secret treatment gives them no upside at all and yet delivers veritable mountains of bad press.
Perhaps Rubenstein was counting on this so he could paint Apple as Goliath and Palm as David with the sling. Knowing Apple and Steve Jobs as he does he likely knew this would happen and will milk it for all the PR he can. (that's assuming that they do have an alternative sync program in the wings).
I usually agree, but I think you've got this one backwards. You could substitute "Palm" for "Apple" in most of your argument and you will have a much better one.
I think Palm blew it here. They've been the secretive ones here. They could have announced that Palm would be compatible from way back, but they didn't. It only became known much later. They could have approached Apple with the idea, but they didn't. We can guess why.
I can't worry about all small developers. There will always be some that get wiped. That's tough.
Users demand more features from the OS developers, and they comply. If that means stepping some small developers along the way. It's too bad, but can't always be helped. Apple has been pretty good about that over the years, except for a few instances where some people, I think mistakenly, blamed them for walking on a couple.
But this is different. I'm not even sure what the law is here. While you're allowed to make your device or software work with other devices, I'm not sure how that works with a situation such as this. I don't think that anyone else here does either.
I don't think this issue has ever come up before. Someone said that BB's were able to sync, but I believe that's wrong.
Well put. All they need is a simple media player with send and fetch functionality. There are plenty of itunes alternatives. It amazes me people rely so much on something that (to me at least) is so stupid.
Feel free to remain amazed, but there is no way in hell that Palm will write an iTunes replacement. They'll write a program that can parse iTunes XML files so that the Pre can talk to the iTunes data base, which is what they should have done in the first place.
There still seems to be some confusion with what is happening: as has been pointed out, the problem wasn't syncing with iTunes per se, it was how Palm went about it-- hacking the USB device identifier/driver to make the Pre present itself as an iPod to the host computer. That's what doesn't work anymore.
Apple didn't "block" access to iTunes, and Palm doesn't have to reinvent iTunes-like desktop software for music management-- which would be insane, since syncing to a mobile device is just a subset of what a program like iTunes does.
Hostility to iTunes notwithstanding, it is the overwhelming incumbent for media management on desktops. How many Pre owners are going to want to have iTunes for the desktop and an entirely different program for handling the same files for their phone? How many Pre owners would even consider the enormous hassle of transferring all of their media out of iTunes and into some program written by a company with a piss poor track record of desktop software, just so they can easily sync that media with their phone?
This is one more anti-competitive, senseless, move by Apple, only meant to inforce an ILLEGAL monopoly. In fact, Apple acts just as if it were led by an ignorant, resentful high school graduate, instead of being the large multinational it should be. Success breeds success, and small-minded actions bring ultimate failure. R.I.P., Apple.
Um, why would you ask APPLE to fix a bug in ADOBE's software? Flash is ADOBE.
I actually dont care who fixes it - I am just annoyed that my 1st gen MacBook
a/ sound like a fighter plane taking off and then inevitably
b/ ceases to do anything
when I have a complex Flash (ad) on a website
Oh that and the total lack of support when my high price cell broke (well the wifi chip that is). At least two weeks....no replacement. And once you're used to the mobile internet a la iPhone, you're really hooked
This is one more anti-competitive, senseless, move by Apple, only meant to inforce an ILLEGAL monopoly. In fact, Apple acts just as if it were led by an ignorant, resentful high school graduate, instead of being the large multinational it should be. Success breeds success, and small-minded actions bring ultimate failure. R.I.P., Apple.
Wow! What trash!
Can you back any of that up, or is it just something you spewed out?
If he pays 220 a month he is exaggerating or lying.
My bill is $172 and I have two iPhones' and one normal phone.
That includes unlimited texting, which is my biggest complaint. I have downloaded over 5 gigs of data on my phone, but im still charged 30 bucks for sending a few MGb of texts.
He does have all the bells and whistles though. Guess that makes a difference.
Yea, I guess that's what Pre gets for advertising "$1200 cheaper than a iPhone 2 year contract with AT&T"
My friend has two iPhones, he pays $220 a month. Jesus!
I only pay $10-$20 a month for AT&T voice with their pay as you go.
Got $19 a month broadband.
All I know is that my iPhone works wonderfully and has a great signal at my beautiful home here in Rockford, MI (outside Grand Rapids). I get a great signal even when I walk down to my private river front in River Bluffs.....AND I even have great coverage while I'm kayaking here on the Rogue River. I'm just glad that www.whitneyvilleland.com has created such a great neighborhood in a wooded setting that provides the perfect balance of nature and technology that I need in my life.
MS breaks third party software all the time. They just do it sneaky.
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
Feel free to remain amazed, but there is no way in hell that Palm will write an iTunes replacement. They'll write a program that can parse iTunes XML files so that the Pre can talk to the iTunes data base, which is what they should have done in the first place.
There still seems to be some confusion with what is happening: as has been pointed out, the problem wasn't syncing with iTunes per se, it was how Palm went about it-- hacking the USB device identifier/driver to make the Pre present itself as an iPod to the host computer. That's what doesn't work anymore.
Apple didn't "block" access to iTunes, and Palm doesn't have to reinvent iTunes-like desktop software for music management-- which would be insane, since syncing to a mobile device is just a subset of what a program like iTunes does.
Hostility to iTunes notwithstanding, it is the overwhelming incumbent for media management on desktops. How many Pre owners are going to want to have iTunes for the desktop and an entirely different program for handling the same files for their phone? How many Pre owners would even consider the enormous hassle of transferring all of their media out of iTunes and into some program written by a company with a piss poor track record of desktop software, just so they can easily sync that media with their phone?
Free programs (like windows media player of all things) find your media files automatically for you. The hardest part about transferring files would be a simple menu click telling wmp to update the library.
But yeah, you're right. If there's an easier (cheaper) method other than writing their own media software, I'm sure they'll do it being in the financial situation they are in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
They already had an alternative, it's called AMAZON.
If you don't like iTunes, then don't use it. I like it just fine, like most people.
Amazon is ok, but not the same. And can't you tell by my post I don't use itunes?
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
This one time, with .net 2.0, I programmed an error check method that caught exception messages by their text, then acted on it. With the next .net update, they reworded some of these exception messages and broke my proggie
(if you can't tell, this is a piss poor example since I can think of nothing else)
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.
Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.
Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.
There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?
It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.
Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.
Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.
There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?
You know about these.
excuse my ignorance, can you explain what they did with these situations? I'm curious... Perhaps a link explaining? I know it sounds like I'm trying to be a weasel and prove you wrong, but I'm serious about wanting to learn about what happened lol
There is no way Apple is going to allow a direct competitor to use it's software to sell the competitor's own product at the expense of Apple's own product. Apple is a hardware company that uses software to sell it's hardware. That is it's whole propose of developing iTunes, or any software for that matter. ITunes is about getting people to buy iPods, iPhones, and Macs not content. It may make some money on content downloads, but it is insignificant in terms of it's hardware sales.
Apple isn't preventing Palm from creating it's own version of iTunes. Apple, however, isn't going to allow Palm to piggy back off of iTunes to sell Pres, not should it.
He does have all the bells and whistles though. Guess that makes a difference.
I hear the average price is about $80 a month.
I forgot about the amount of minutes someone can add, I have the smallest about, If someone went with more, I can total understand it getting up there in price.
excuse my ignorance, can you explain what they did with these situations? I'm curious... Perhaps a link explaining? I know it sounds like I'm trying to be a weasel and prove you wrong, but I'm serious about wanting to learn about what happened lol
It's pretty obvious you are a teenager and weren't even born when the anti-trust suits, involving not only Netscape, but Real and Quicktime were brought against M$.
You should probably stop asking people for proof and go read up on it, do yourself a favor you have most of this board rolling their eyes at you.
That is one of the grounds why Microsoft lost it's anti trust trial. There is quite a bit of sources alleging Microsoft intentionally broke Quicktime in order to push Windows Media. It also allegedly broke a competing version of DOS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
Comments
I think the whole thing is a PR war both on the part of Palm and Apple and Palm may have just scored a direct hit.
This kind of stuff points directly to the flaw in Apple's tendency to be secretive. While it's generally a brilliant strategy not to talk about what they are doing and while it's served them very well in the past, now that they have such a high public profile and are in the news all the time, getting new customers etc., I think it works against them in many ways.
For new products its still a great strategy, but for software less so in that smaller developers sometimes get blindsided. Now that Apple is trying to get some of the bigger developers and partners on board the Apple express there is a danger of totally screwing over some of those same partners because they refuse to get into describing a road map in even the most general of terms.
In this specific case, involved as it is with issues of monopoly and market dominance it's just foolish to remain silent IMO. A simple announcement that they are specifically doing this thing for a specific reason, and perhaps even announcing the intention to allow *licensed* syncing of other devices in the future, or even pointing out that iTunes is all XML and can be easily linked to would go a long way. In cases like this the silent secret treatment gives them no upside at all and yet delivers veritable mountains of bad press.
Perhaps Rubenstein was counting on this so he could paint Apple as Goliath and Palm as David with the sling. Knowing Apple and Steve Jobs as he does he likely knew this would happen and will milk it for all the PR he can. (that's assuming that they do have an alternative sync program in the wings).
I usually agree, but I think you've got this one backwards. You could substitute "Palm" for "Apple" in most of your argument and you will have a much better one.
I think Palm blew it here. They've been the secretive ones here. They could have announced that Palm would be compatible from way back, but they didn't. It only became known much later. They could have approached Apple with the idea, but they didn't. We can guess why.
I can't worry about all small developers. There will always be some that get wiped. That's tough.
Users demand more features from the OS developers, and they comply. If that means stepping some small developers along the way. It's too bad, but can't always be helped. Apple has been pretty good about that over the years, except for a few instances where some people, I think mistakenly, blamed them for walking on a couple.
But this is different. I'm not even sure what the law is here. While you're allowed to make your device or software work with other devices, I'm not sure how that works with a situation such as this. I don't think that anyone else here does either.
I don't think this issue has ever come up before. Someone said that BB's were able to sync, but I believe that's wrong.
Well put. All they need is a simple media player with send and fetch functionality. There are plenty of itunes alternatives. It amazes me people rely so much on something that (to me at least) is so stupid.
Feel free to remain amazed, but there is no way in hell that Palm will write an iTunes replacement. They'll write a program that can parse iTunes XML files so that the Pre can talk to the iTunes data base, which is what they should have done in the first place.
There still seems to be some confusion with what is happening: as has been pointed out, the problem wasn't syncing with iTunes per se, it was how Palm went about it-- hacking the USB device identifier/driver to make the Pre present itself as an iPod to the host computer. That's what doesn't work anymore.
Apple didn't "block" access to iTunes, and Palm doesn't have to reinvent iTunes-like desktop software for music management-- which would be insane, since syncing to a mobile device is just a subset of what a program like iTunes does.
Hostility to iTunes notwithstanding, it is the overwhelming incumbent for media management on desktops. How many Pre owners are going to want to have iTunes for the desktop and an entirely different program for handling the same files for their phone? How many Pre owners would even consider the enormous hassle of transferring all of their media out of iTunes and into some program written by a company with a piss poor track record of desktop software, just so they can easily sync that media with their phone?
This is one more anti-competitive, senseless, move by Apple, only meant to inforce an ILLEGAL monopoly. In fact, Apple acts just as if it were led by an ignorant, resentful high school graduate, instead of being the large multinational it should be. Success breeds success, and small-minded actions bring ultimate failure. R.I.P., Apple.
Monopoly on what exactly?
Um, why would you ask APPLE to fix a bug in ADOBE's software? Flash is ADOBE.
I actually dont care who fixes it - I am just annoyed that my 1st gen MacBook
a/ sound like a fighter plane taking off and then inevitably
b/ ceases to do anything
when I have a complex Flash (ad) on a website
Oh that and the total lack of support when my high price cell broke (well the wifi chip that is). At least two weeks....no replacement. And once you're used to the mobile internet a la iPhone, you're really hooked
Perhaps all this will do is open more people's eyes as to what truly awful trash itunes is when they find an alternative.
They already had an alternative, it's called AMAZON.
If you don't like iTunes, then don't use it. I like it just fine, like most people.
This is one more anti-competitive, senseless, move by Apple, only meant to inforce an ILLEGAL monopoly. In fact, Apple acts just as if it were led by an ignorant, resentful high school graduate, instead of being the large multinational it should be. Success breeds success, and small-minded actions bring ultimate failure. R.I.P., Apple.
Wow! What trash!
Can you back any of that up, or is it just something you spewed out?
If he pays 220 a month he is exaggerating or lying.
My bill is $172 and I have two iPhones' and one normal phone.
That includes unlimited texting, which is my biggest complaint. I have downloaded over 5 gigs of data on my phone, but im still charged 30 bucks for sending a few MGb of texts.
He does have all the bells and whistles though. Guess that makes a difference.
I hear the average price is about $80 a month.
Yea, I guess that's what Pre gets for advertising "$1200 cheaper than a iPhone 2 year contract with AT&T"
My friend has two iPhones, he pays $220 a month. Jesus!
I only pay $10-$20 a month for AT&T voice with their pay as you go.
Got $19 a month broadband.
All I know is that my iPhone works wonderfully and has a great signal at my beautiful home here in Rockford, MI (outside Grand Rapids). I get a great signal even when I walk down to my private river front in River Bluffs.....AND I even have great coverage while I'm kayaking here on the Rogue River. I'm just glad that www.whitneyvilleland.com has created such a great neighborhood in a wooded setting that provides the perfect balance of nature and technology that I need in my life.
MS breaks third party software all the time. They just do it sneaky.
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
Feel free to remain amazed, but there is no way in hell that Palm will write an iTunes replacement. They'll write a program that can parse iTunes XML files so that the Pre can talk to the iTunes data base, which is what they should have done in the first place.
There still seems to be some confusion with what is happening: as has been pointed out, the problem wasn't syncing with iTunes per se, it was how Palm went about it-- hacking the USB device identifier/driver to make the Pre present itself as an iPod to the host computer. That's what doesn't work anymore.
Apple didn't "block" access to iTunes, and Palm doesn't have to reinvent iTunes-like desktop software for music management-- which would be insane, since syncing to a mobile device is just a subset of what a program like iTunes does.
Hostility to iTunes notwithstanding, it is the overwhelming incumbent for media management on desktops. How many Pre owners are going to want to have iTunes for the desktop and an entirely different program for handling the same files for their phone? How many Pre owners would even consider the enormous hassle of transferring all of their media out of iTunes and into some program written by a company with a piss poor track record of desktop software, just so they can easily sync that media with their phone?
Free programs (like windows media player of all things) find your media files automatically for you. The hardest part about transferring files would be a simple menu click telling wmp to update the library.
But yeah, you're right. If there's an easier (cheaper) method other than writing their own media software, I'm sure they'll do it being in the financial situation they are in.
They already had an alternative, it's called AMAZON.
If you don't like iTunes, then don't use it. I like it just fine, like most people.
Amazon is ok, but not the same. And can't you tell by my post I don't use itunes?
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
This one time, with .net 2.0, I programmed an error check method that caught exception messages by their text, then acted on it. With the next .net update, they reworded some of these exception messages and broke my proggie
(if you can't tell, this is a piss poor example since I can think of nothing else)
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.
It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.
Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.
Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.
There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?
You know about these.
It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.
Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.
Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.
There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?
You know about these.
excuse my ignorance, can you explain what they did with these situations? I'm curious... Perhaps a link explaining? I know it sounds like I'm trying to be a weasel and prove you wrong, but I'm serious about wanting to learn about what happened lol
Amazon is ok, but not the same. And can't you tell by my post I don't use itunes?
It doesn't have to be the same. It would have been the proper thing to do, and they do it anyway.
I thought you didn't use it, but people use programs while complaining constantly about why they don't want to.
Apple isn't preventing Palm from creating it's own version of iTunes. Apple, however, isn't going to allow Palm to piggy back off of iTunes to sell Pres, not should it.
That blows my hypothesis.
He does have all the bells and whistles though. Guess that makes a difference.
I hear the average price is about $80 a month.
I forgot about the amount of minutes someone can add, I have the smallest about, If someone went with more, I can total understand it getting up there in price.
It goes way back. I can give you some biggies that caused the federal government to set up the first anti-trust suit against MS in the early '90's.
Wordperfect, Lotus, DB.
Of course, what they did to Netscape could be included as well.
There are quire a few others, but who has the time to look for links to all the small ones?
You know about these.
excuse my ignorance, can you explain what they did with these situations? I'm curious... Perhaps a link explaining? I know it sounds like I'm trying to be a weasel and prove you wrong, but I'm serious about wanting to learn about what happened lol
It's pretty obvious you are a teenager and weren't even born when the anti-trust suits, involving not only Netscape, but Real and Quicktime were brought against M$.
You should probably stop asking people for proof and go read up on it, do yourself a favor you have most of this board rolling their eyes at you.
Maybe instead they should fix the BUG of high CPU usage in Safari when a Flash is played.
They've started the ultimate fix by refusing to put flash on the iPhone...
Between this and your fallacious previous car analogy, jeez, another delusional Apple fanboi asking for more future privations from the cult...
Now can you please name us ONLY ONE third party software that MS broke "sneakily"? You shouldn't have any trouble backing such a ludicrous allegation, unless you are mythomaniac.