Worker commits suicide after iPhone prototype goes missing - reports

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  • Reply 141 of 176
    capnbobcapnbob Posts: 386member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ouragan View Post




    BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years. The latest example is that American man of Chinese ancestry convicted of giving to Chinese government officials plans for 85% of the American shuttle (It should be known that the Chinese government doesn't participate in the international space station program, but plans to go on the Moon on its own).



    Industrial spying is alive and well in the Chinese Empire.









    I think you'll find that for at least much of the first 1500 years of your 2000, China was inventing amazing scientific things, etc. while present Western Civilization was barely using the wheel.

    The copying thing (with or without espionage) is what any follower does to try to catch up when it is vastly outmatched - look at the US in the 19th century, Japan, S Korea, etc. 1945-80 - once they get on terms, then they innovate/invent. God help us when China does.
  • Reply 142 of 176
    ouraganouragan Posts: 417member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by user_23 View Post


    please, the last 2000 years? it's only in the last several decades that China has even bothered to open her self up to any serious interaction with the "western" world = influence from outside cultures. China of all countries has typically been remarkably insular.



    I'd love to see some sources for your brash statement of "...have been doing so for the last 2,000 years."





    I was referring to the habit of copying antiquities and "unique" objects of art. Because China is almost 5 times bigger than the U.S., it has 5 times as many talented, unemployed artists and fraud artists.



    Businessmen are well aware that they should not carry any trade secrets on computers across border lines (Chinese and the USA alike) as custom agents are empowered by law to confiscate computers and copy their contents.



    Finally, large scale espionnage operations were carried out in government and defence department computers throughout Western world democracies (Germany, France, Britain, Canada, the U.S.) over the last 12 to 24 months, all of them originating from China or, the last one, North Korea. Just check TG Daily or Google for the exact references, if it's news to you.



    BTW, I trust the intelligence and hard work of the Chinese people, but I am under no illusion as to what their communist government is capable of.





  • Reply 143 of 176
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ouragan View Post


    I was referring to the habit of copying antiquities and "unique" objects of art. Because China is almost 5 times bigger than the U.S., it has 5 times as many talented, unemployed artists and fraud artists.



    Businessmen are well aware that they should not carry any trade secrets on computers across border lines (Chinese and the USA alike) as custom agents are empowered by law to confiscate computers and copy their contents.



    Finally, large scale espionnage operations were carried out in government and defence department computers throughout Western world democracies (Germany, France, Britain, Canada, the U.S.) over the last 12 to 24 months, all of them originating from China or, the last one, North Korea. Just check TG Daily or Google for the exact references, if it's news to you.



    BTW, I trust the intelligence and hard work of the Chinese people, but I am under no illusion as to what their communist government is capable of.









    I mean... I'm no huge fan of China but if you think the USA is just sitting back fending off attacks, and isn't actively doing our own spying... well I can't really help you.



    You said "BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years"



    Make this easy on yourself and just retract that. Upon re-reading the racist tone strikes me more than it did at first....
  • Reply 144 of 176
    kibitzerkibitzer Posts: 1,113member
    Good grief - this thread has wandered all over the place without capturing the gist of this episode and Americans' reactions to it. This is fundamentally a question of applying American business ethics and expectations to the business practices of products and components manufactured abroad by Apple suppliers. It's been a vexing problem for companies like Nike, for example, dealing with allegations of sweatshop conditions in Asian factories.



    So should we hold Apple responsible for business practices at a supplier that apparently caused one of the supplier's employees to kill himself? Perhaps, if you look at the corporate responsibility Apple has taken on itself on environmental concerns. Apple certainly expends great effort to reduce its environmental footprint on the planet, through such practices as recycling old electronics, earth-friendly packaging design, and minimizing toxic chemicals in products and manufacturing.



    So then - what influence should Apple exert over the behavior of suppliers toward their employees?
  • Reply 145 of 176
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,638member
    This would not have happened if Apple made their products in the US.
  • Reply 146 of 176
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ouragan View Post




    BTW, everyone knows that Chinese individuals are experts at copying and have been doing so for the last 2,000 years.



    Huh?!



    Last I looked, China was getting no royalties or IP protection for paper, gunpowder, fireworks, the compass, printing, or porcelain from the West. Or, for that matter, from anywhere.



    (As an fyi, all of those happened within the last 2000 years.)
  • Reply 147 of 176
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post


    The problem is, I've never seen you cite anything. All I've ever seen you do is criticize others for not citing sources, or criticize the source they do cite. Ironically, we are making the same point, which is that living and working conditions for factory workers in China are abominable. Workers are treated as expendable units. This is something most people don't know about China. But I need to cite my source for that, and you don't? Who made that rule?



    Because it's clearly based on your own prejudice of China. Otherwise why are Chinese government policies polling so well? Why was there a great deal of renewed nationalism after the Olympics?



    Chinese factory worker conditions in many factories are bad but China has improved a great deal. The biggest problem is corruption where folks simply don't do what is required by law (or companies) and pay officials off to get away with it.



    It's not hard to figure out. A farmer makes $690 a year. A factory worker 3 times as much.
  • Reply 148 of 176
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dagamer34 View Post


    Wow, in order for there to be prototypes already, the device itself must have been conceived maybe 6-8 months ago. That means that it's finalized for quite a long time before the public ever sees it!



    Exactly and to me that says this isn't a iPhone 4G. Perhaps it was an iPhone mini others still insist is coming , or perhaps a 64GB iPhone 3GS intended for just before the holidays?



    True Apple has so far gone with June for iPhone launches, with no updates prior (barring a price drop), but they've done small updates with other lines prior to launches of "something new", I see no reason why they wouldn't with the iPhone.



    Besides, shut up, I'm allowed to dream.
  • Reply 149 of 176
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Because it's clearly based on your own prejudice of China. Otherwise why are Chinese government policies polling so well? Why was there a great deal of renewed nationalism after the Olympics?



    Chinese factory worker conditions in many factories are bad but China has improved a great deal. The biggest problem is corruption where folks simply don't do what is required by law (or companies) and pay officials off to get away with it.



    It's not hard to figure out. A farmer makes $690 a year. A factory worker 3 times as much.



    With respect, Vinea, he's right. Cite your stuff and don't make assumptions about people. I don't know you and I want hard evidence of anything you say or he says. The first thing you can research, explain and cite when explaining is who's polls are these and why should we trust them?
  • Reply 150 of 176
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ouragan View Post


    Because China is almost 5 times bigger than the U.S.



    I would hate to nitpick, but:



    1. China's July 2009 estimated population is: 1,338,612,968 and the United States as of this posting is estimated to have: 306,973,077. China thus has approximately 4.36 times as many people as the United States. A significant number, but if we are to round, we should round down, not up.



    2. In terms of area China is: 9,596,960 sq km and the United States is 9,826,630 sq km. Of that, for China: 9,326,410 sq km is land and for the United States: 9,161,923 sq km is land. Depending on which measure you find most important, one is in third place and the other is in fourth place as far as total area goes versus the other countries of the world. Russia and Canada are ahead with first and second place respectively.



    Now chances are you meant population. But 4.36 isn't almost 5, something like 4.9 is or 4.8, heck I may have given you 4.6, but not 4.36.



    Anyway, food for thought.
  • Reply 151 of 176
    peter236peter236 Posts: 254member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post


    Where do I start....



    1) The guy didn't kill himself over a lost iPhone, he apparently killed himself after being harassed, threatened and possibly tortured. Big difference!



    2) We don't know the whole story yet.



    3) Is China capitalist, communist or fascist? Let's put it this way: workers there are essentially slaves with very low pay.



    4) The mobile phone industry is a multi-billion dollar business. It would not surprise me if there was foul play here. Greedy people do evil things.



    How can you say the salary is low in China? Maybe relatively to the average US salary. But the consumers prices in China are much lower. For example, a decent apartment in China is way cheaper than in the US. And the people do not work like slaves there. This is the typical misconception that ignorant Americans have about other countries. They can quit their job and find another better job. People can go back to school to upgrade themselves for a better job.



    As the US economy continues to slump, you guys in the US will very soon work for cheap wages. The US is going bankrupt soon unless, China continues to lend more money. You guys will have a chance to work like slaves very soon.
  • Reply 152 of 176
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post


    I would hate to nitpick, but:



    1. China's July 2009 estimated population is: 1,338,612,968 and the United States as of this posting is estimated to have: 306,973,077. China thus has approximately 4.36 times as many people as the United States. A significant number, but if we are to round, we should round down, not up.



    2. In terms of area China is: 9,596,960 sq km and the United States is 9,826,630 sq km. Of that, for China: 9,326,410 sq km is land and for the United States: 9,161,923 sq km is land. Depending on which measure you find most important, one is in third place and the other is in fourth place as far as total area goes versus the other countries of the world. Russia and Canada are ahead with first and second place respectively.



    Now chances are you meant population. But 4.36 isn't almost 5, something like 4.9 is or 4.8, heck I may have given you 4.6, but not 4.36.



    Anyway, food for thought.



    GREAT post. Truly great.



  • Reply 153 of 176
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post


    With respect, Vinea, he's right. Cite your stuff and don't make assumptions about people. I don't know you and I want hard evidence of anything you say or he says. The first thing you can research, explain and cite when explaining is who's polls are these and why should we trust them?



    Already cited on page 2. In 2008 86% of surveyed Chinese are satisfied with the direction the country is going. That's #1 in the world.



    I put the link on the page for a reason...so you can go look at who was the poller, who was polled and what methods they used. That you won't even CLICK on the link is not my problem but yours. Nor do I have to KEEP citing the link in following posts.



    But here:



    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=261



    In the full report you can go to the survey methods section.



    But thus far Millmoss has asserted that China is potentially the most dangerous nation on the planet, that "some" Chinese have a better life but that "many" Chinese do not lead implying that the majority do not, that China is trying to drive migrant workers to the city by reducing rural education and health care and that the system is "brutal". hint: Its more brutal in the rural areas or they wouldn't go into the cities. And the Chinese government does try to improve rural living conditions.



    All without any citations or facts other than his own opinion which appear prejudiced, uneducated and based on fear. Which you don't seem to mind but try to call me on a lack of citations which were previously supplied.



    China has a huge population with complexities only India truly understands because she faces many of the same problems. However, the cultural and historical background of the two countries lead to two different political solutions.



    Note that democracy in India has not magically resolved harsh living and working conditions. While they are better, in general, than in China TODAY, India hasn't shot itself in the foot a couple times like China has (the cultural revolution was the biggie). However, child worker conditions in Bangalore is not what I would call "ideal" and there are often harsh working conditions using migrant workers in dangerous jobs with little pay.



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004....randeepramesh
  • Reply 154 of 176
    rivertriprivertrip Posts: 109member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post


    Seriously, people don't seem to understand that capitalism on communism is like lipstick on a pig.



    Maybe if we can free up the death grip of some of the unions in the US we can move some of these jobs back home.



    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for workers having some sort of representation to make sure they don't get screwed by corporations, but some of the demands of these union managers are just to line their own pockets & don't get anything for the worker.



    What specific demands by "union managers" are you talking about.
  • Reply 155 of 176
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wraithofwonder View Post


    I would hate to nitpick, but:



    That would be nitpicking. China is 4 times larger than they US and will likely be even closer to being 5 times larger within a few years. Which would also qualify for the "almost" moniker.



    While our growth rate is higher than China's, ours is decreasing (and mostly based on immigration) while theirs has seen a blip upwards. Even with a 0.6 growth rate, they'll hit 1.5B in around 5 years. In 5 years we'll had maybe another 10-20M to our population (0.8). 1.5B vs 320M. 4.68-1.



    Depends on how much our recession curtails immigration pressure. If we have a fast recovery, we could see immigration go back up to 0.92. In which case China wouldn't be closer in 5 years but further away. But given the recent trend line I'm thinking not likely.
  • Reply 156 of 176
    olternautolternaut Posts: 1,376member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by desarc View Post


    Apple [and everyone else] will continue making their products in the far east until Americans [and labor unions] understand that people don't deserve $35/hour with full benefits and a matching 401k for clicking the green button when the widget stops in front of them, and the red button if something goes wrong.



    the Chinese [Taiwanese, etc] will do these jobs for less than 10% of what Americans will. these jobs will never come back.



    Fine, you have a point.



    Then let's build robot factories in the U.S.A then! Yes, initial costs will be expensive. But in the long run a robot would work for a hell of a lot less than a Chinese worker and I bet more efficiently too! And with a lot less torture induced "suicides"!!!

    It would be better than the situation we have now...now wouldn't it?
  • Reply 157 of 176
    maximaramaximara Posts: 269member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bryanhauer View Post


    Umm, he didn't "lose" his life... he "took" his own life which is a cowardly way out. Many people go through horrible experiences in their life. Killing yourself over a lost iPhone or even losing your job, becoming homeless etc aren't reasons to kill yourself.



    Typical social ignorance. In Asia loss of "face" is a major thing and if great enough death by suicide is seen as the only option. I strongly suspect that not understanding social differences lead to this mess.
  • Reply 158 of 176
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post


    I didn't know that human rights had to be earned. The entire concept has me gasping.




    If a country had unalienable rights similar to that of the United States, but had a collapsed economic system, the people of that country would still suffer.



    The situation in China is somewhat different than the U.S. in that the government has focused on first lifting the economic system before addressing more specific issues of human rights. In practicality, both our necessary to ensure prosperity.



    Now the fact is that China has about 4.3 x the population of the US, but the US still consumes more resources than China. As an earlier post pointed out, our resources our quickly depleting. If we expect Chinese workers to get paid even 1/2 of a US wage with all the benefits we receive here in the States, that is simply unreasonable, the resources of our planet will not support it.



    We see all of these jobs being outsourced and we question why. I think the answer is as simple as: The standard of living in the US is unsustainable.



    We criticize China for slave labor, when in practicality, their wages represent those competitive in our global market. So we can blame free market capitalism, but we most certainly cannot blame China.



    China to be sure does need to improve in the area of human rights (Actually many laws have been pasted, but they are seldom followed. For example, here in BJ, work is canceled if the weather is above 39 deg C, which it has been on several days, but the weather report always declares it to be 38 degrees) but in truth, it is the system of American capitalism has pushed China in this direction.



    For example, we blame China for polluting the environment, but a vast number of this pollution comes from factories that ship things to the US, supporting US consumers.



    We are all at fault.
  • Reply 159 of 176
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by peter236 View Post


    How can you say the salary is low in China? Maybe relatively to the average US salary. But the consumers prices in China are much lower. For example, a decent apartment in China is way cheaper than in the US. And the people do not work like slaves there. This is the typical misconception that ignorant Americans have about other countries. They can quit their job and find another better job. People can go back to school to upgrade themselves for a better job.



    Well, because the salaries ARE low. At the end of the day, China is still a Communist country where citizens have a lot less freedom and corruption is rampant.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by peter236 View Post


    As the US economy continues to slump, you guys in the US will very soon work for cheap wages. The US is going bankrupt soon unless, China continues to lend more money. You guys will have a chance to work like slaves very soon.



    It's not only the US economy that is slumping. And if the US did go bankrupt, China would be royally screwed. The one thing that could happen is that the US started manufacturing our goods right here in the US again instead of outsourcing everything to China. Imagine how something like that would impact the already fragile Chinese economy.
  • Reply 160 of 176
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Olternaut View Post


    Fine, you have a point.



    Then let's build robot factories in the U.S.A then! Yes, initial costs will be expensive. But in the long run a robot would work for a hell of a lot less than a Chinese worker and I bet more efficiently too! And with a lot less torture induced "suicides"!!!

    It would be better than the situation we have now...now wouldn't it?



    Sadly, its not as simple as that. Although automation, such as fast pick and place machines, optical assisted inspection etc.. helps reduce the effective labor rate in the USA, the sad thing is that the "raw" materials (the chips!) are generally priced MUCH higher in the USA than in China. Even silicon thats fab'd in the USA. Example, on a certain micro-controller, 10,000 pcs, ~$6 USA, and less that $2 in China. In order to remain somewhat competitive, I know people that buy 'gray' market parts back from China to build here.



    Really sad that someone would loose a life over secrecy. The more I read, the more it seems he was pushed (physically or mentally or fear of more torture -it doesn't matter) Secrecy of a new phone is worth a lot, but never the life of a 25 year old.
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