Full Mac OS X for full blown presentations from NATIVE Apple Keynote and Microsoft PowerPoint ...
We need thousands for our University.
Sorry, but I still can't grasp why this would be such a huge market compared to (say) a $300 netbook. The slate form factor isn't nearly as easy to work with as a clamshell, especially in a 10" size. For a slate, you either need to lay it flat, prop it up against something, or hold it. None of these positions are conducive to easy data entry or comfortable viewing.
The only thing you bring up is a weight of 300g; this compares to an iPhone weight of 135g and iPod Touch weight of 115g. To scale to a 10" screen as rumored, it would be pretty hard to get the weight under 900g, which is a minor savings relative to a comparable netbook. Sure, thickness would be reduced, but would that be enough of a driver to define a new market. To get to that weight you would be limited to about a 5.5-6" screen.
The Kindle DX is 520g; I don't think you are going to find anything lighter than that with that size screen. Reviewers complain that it is too heavy... what can Apple do to innovate on this?
The real give-away is in the paper itself, which says:
Many other devices have firmware update mechanisms that we believe can also be exploited by attackers for malicious purposes.
So, what you have is a general class of flaws, being demonstrated on an Apple in order to get more hype and fame. Seems to be a typical AssHat conference strategy these days.
Also, there is an easy way for end users to protect themselves from this. Use a third party keyboard. This bit of advice is conveniently left out of any of the articles, but if security is an issue in you workplace, I would probably advise it.
I wonder if it affects MacBook/MacBook Pro keyboards?
Yeah, I love these theoretical exercises that require physical access and/or the admin's password.
Targeting Apple is such an easy way to get publicity or web site hits. No one would give a shit, or pay ANY attention, if it were Dell or HP hardware being "compromised".
The way they couch all their BS PR in "helping Apple" or other such nonsense. Simply put: It's a job fair.
Makes me wonder - is there something different about Apple keyboards vs. PC keyboards? Is this attack method unique to Apple keyboards or could a similar attack be used to compromise other computers as well?
So, the Apple tablet will supposedly be a media and gaming device only? Not interested. Hopefully it can do more than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffharris
TV is a transitional appliance, which I could see merged with something else at some point. Besides, doesn't iTunes mostly replicate what an TV does?
Not really. Apple TV connects to your iTunes library to stream and play your content on your TV. It also has an interface that allows you to purchase content from the iTunes Store, so, that part is like iTunes. It's a lot easier than hooking your laptop up to your TV. The Apple TV has all the right connections, such as HDMI, as well.
The only problem with the Apple TV is that it gets blazing hot. A few times I had to put an icepack on it because it started going haywire from overheating.
One rubber band, a few paper clips, and reasonable aim should solve that problem.
Yes, but, in NYC that could result in severe bodily harm to yourself. One time I shushed someone who was loudly taking to the screen, and the dude wanted to rumble on the sidewalk afterwards like some high-school bully.
Sorry, but I still can't grasp why this would be such a huge market compared to (say) a $300 netbook. The slate form factor isn't nearly as easy to work with as a clamshell, especially in a 10" size. For a slate, you either need to lay it flat, prop it up against something, or hold it. None of these positions are conducive to easy data entry or comfortable viewing.
The only thing you bring up is a weight of 300g; this compares to an iPhone weight of 135g and iPod Touch weight of 115g. To scale to a 10" screen as rumored, it would be pretty hard to get the weight under 900g, which is a minor savings relative to a comparable netbook. Sure, thickness would be reduced, but would that be enough of a driver to define a new market. To get to that weight you would be limited to about a 5.5-6" screen.
The Kindle DX is 520g; I don't think you are going to find anything lighter than that with that size screen. Reviewers complain that it is too heavy... what can Apple do to innovate on this?
These are all reasons why I wish the rumors were for a 6-inch screen, give or take. The iPhone/touch is just too small for my big hands for typing and my less-than-20/20 vision for veiwing web pages, but I still want something more portable than a 10" screen. Input is going to be the real challenge. It seems like holding it in your hands and typing with your thumbs would be the most common usage. But if you hold it landscape you won't be able to reach all of the keys (unless they use a split keyboard), and if you hold it portrait the balance would seem to be wrong (unless they can move the center of gravity towards the bottom).
I'm sure Apple will come up with some unique solutions to the challenges, but it doesn't seem like a 10" tablet will have enough differentiation to justify the premium pricing over a netbook. Perhaps Apple will be heavily relying on the iPhone halo effect to drive demand?
I am no security expert here so correct away, but...
Isn't this like saying " we found a fatal flaw in Mac hardware that is very easy to exploit, once you get through the first round of really good security... the need for a password to execute the malicious code"?
So, really there is no "there" there, is there? It's not like UAC which prompts for the sun coming up, therefore the mindless clicking of the "allow" button (which I have done hundreds of times).
And the Windows (or Linux) fan-boys are having fun in the comments of the linked article.
Well, now we know that the iSteve did not really have a liver transplant but has been working feverishly on this whole tablet thing to get it out by November in time for that iHoliday spirit.
All the medical stuff has been a ruse to confuse the rumor makers ... or perhaps, wait, it's not a tablet after all but suite of new iOrgans including a new iLiver with synchronization to the iOrgans store (iSpleen and iPancreas coming soon).
These are all reasons why I wish the rumors were for a 6-inch screen, give or take. The iPhone/touch is just too small for my big hands for typing and my less-than-20/20 vision for veiwing web pages, but I still want something more portable than a 10" screen. Input is going to be the real challenge. It seems like holding it in your hands and typing with your thumbs would be the most common usage. But if you hold it landscape you won't be able to reach all of the keys (unless they use a split keyboard), and if you hold it portrait the balance would seem to be wrong (unless they can move the center of gravity towards the bottom).
I'd go for 6" or 7" device. But I could see them also offering 2 devices: a 6"-7" and a 10" premium model.
Type with thumbs? That's such a cellphone mindset.
Hold it in one hand, type with 2 or 3 fingers with the other. That's what I do 1-fingered on my iPod touch.
Hopefully, there will be a larger "keyboard" so it'll be easier to hit the character you want instead of a chance at the 3 or 4 surrounding it!
I'd also like to see a keyboard option where a few basic punctuation marks are available AT ALL TIMES without being forced to switch between keypad modes.
And if you've exploited the OS to the point where you can run a firmware update on the keyboard, why bother infecting the keyboard? Just do your dirty work directly.
Because once the keyboard is compromised not even a complete wipe and reinstall of OS X will cure it, and supposedly the hack works on laptop keyboards as well.
My avenue of choice would be to exploit Safari or a plug-in via a compromised web page, then infect the keyboard with that reinfects EFI with a download-able payload less the user replace or wipe the hard drive.
I wonder if it affects MacBook/MacBook Pro keyboards?
Yes it does.
Do a System Profiler and look under USB devices, the laptop keyboard is there.
The same underlining technology is standard across all Apple USB keyboards, just different hardware.
Can't believe Apple didn't see this coming, they are smart and it's such a simple hack too, thus it means they purposely allowed this hack for "big brother".
Once you get a keystroke logger in the keyboard firmware, all bets are off for the rest of OS X security.
Yes, but, in NYC that could result in severe bodily harm to yourself. One time I shushed someone who was loudly taking to the screen, and the dude wanted to rumble on the sidewalk afterwards like some high-school bully.
That's why you have to shoot 'n' move, shoot 'n' move...
TV is a transitional appliance, which I could see merged with something else at some point. Besides, doesn't iTunes mostly replicate what an TV does?
Now I connect my MBP to my HDTV for slideshows or showing my work to groups of people (controlled from across the room with Bluetooth mouse and keyboard).
Having a dedicated, networked, internet enabled Mac connected to my TV, with a Blu-ray player on the side, would be great. A mini is perfect for that. I can even mount it to the swing arm the TV is on.
Playing Call of Duty 4 on such a big screen is kinda trippy, too.
The iPad will augment existing devices, not replace the TV or the Mac mini. It would be for an entirely different purpose/market; everything from a handheld movie viewer/gaming device, to portable music, note taking and even with the addition of external scanners and such (iPhone 3.0 supports them, yes?) could be used by medical staff or FedEx/UPS. Especially if there's a 3G/4G enabled version!
I'd LOVE to have a Lite version of Vectorworks running on this thing!
If done right, it could open up huge markets AND be a way to sneak Macs through the back doors of PC entrenched businesses. I see potentially greater impact than the iPhone has had/is having in that area.
A mac mini offers more functionality than an Apple TV for sure, like if you want to surf the web, play games (although the mini isn't much of a gaming machine as far as horsepower). It would be good if you want to watch hulu videos etc. The mini basically has all the functionality of an apple tv and the front row interface looks pretty much exactly like the apple tv, and it could also replace your dvd player.
The Apple TV is great if all you want to do is access your iTunes content (songs, movies, tv) from your entertainment center. That's what I use mine for and I keep my library on shared storage so any computer in the house, including my apple tv can have access to it.
A mini would be great, but I couldn't justify 600 bucks just to add web and games to my TV. I do all my surfing and gaming at my desk, I already have a dvd player, and mini has no blueray drive. The bade apple tv is only like $229. Also, I think its only the latest minis with the nvidia graphics that support hdcp.
this tablet thing seems only useful as a PORTABLE media device. I can't see using it at home that much when the above solutions seem like better experiences.
Yet another reason why they can have my Apple Extended when they pry it form under my cold, dead fingers.
I still got that old keyboard with the Mac in storage. Very ergonomic. Reminds me of the old IBM, Made in the USA keyboards that were precise with tactile feedback and seldom broke down. I got to find the adapter though.
I wonder if it affects MacBook/MacBook Pro keyboards?
Yes it does.
I've read the white paper, and I don't see why you are so sure. He is very specific in the particular firmware update he reverse engineers. It may be possible to reverse engineer the laptop keyboard as well, but he doesn't demonstrate it--and I have no idea if the memory is the same.
The sytem profiler lists:
Quote:
Apple Internal Keyboard / Trackpad:
Product IDt0x0236
Vendor IDt0x05ac (Apple Inc.)
Versiont0.77
SpeedtUp to 12 Mb/sec
ManufacturertApple, Inc.
Location IDt0x04600000
Current Available (mA)t500
Current Required (mA)t40
Which is clearly different than the standard keyboards on iMacs.
But all that is window dressing. Any external component that allows flash BIOS updates would potentially have this venerability. It is a serious and interesting topic, but the focus on Apple is just hype.
Agreed. Windows hole, trojan, virus = yawn. Apple exploitable hole or trojan = world coming to an end. However, they have set themselves up for this by loudly proclaiming they are safer than Windows. I guess the claim is "safer", not "perfectly safe". If their market share continues to increase and they continue to trumpet their "Macs don't get viruses" claim they better be willing to step up to problems and address them quickly.
It's exciting to think we may get a glimpse of this new product sooner than previously anticipated. I don't think they'll call it "iNetbook" though. Isn't Apple's current policy to incorporate "Mac" into the name of all of their computers?
I'm also hoping it's more fully-functional than being focused on watching movies and playing games. It'd be nice to have such a small form factor to do real work on. I'd like it to have a mini DisplayPort for connectivity to external display devices for presentations. Realistically, Apple can't make it too powerful and capable without cannibalizing their MacBook lines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh
Sorry, but I still can't grasp why this would be such a huge market compared to (say) a $300 netbook. The slate form factor isn't nearly as easy to work with as a clamshell, especially in a 10" size. For a slate, you either need to lay it flat, prop it up against something, or hold it. None of these positions are conducive to easy data entry or comfortable viewing.
The only thing you bring up is a weight of 300g; this compares to an iPhone weight of 135g and iPod Touch weight of 115g. To scale to a 10" screen as rumored, it would be pretty hard to get the weight under 900g, which is a minor savings relative to a comparable netbook. Sure, thickness would be reduced, but would that be enough of a driver to define a new market. To get to that weight you would be limited to about a 5.5-6" screen.
The Kindle DX is 520g; I don't think you are going to find anything lighter than that with that size screen. Reviewers complain that it is too heavy... what can Apple do to innovate on this?
The weight is our number 1 feature (as light as possible). Then the size (as small as possible). The price is the last concern. For us, the perfect Mac would be the OQO model 2+ with Mac OS X inside. Otherwise, a tablet as small as possible:
Comments
...
Full Mac OS X for full blown presentations from NATIVE Apple Keynote and Microsoft PowerPoint ...
We need thousands for our University.
Sorry, but I still can't grasp why this would be such a huge market compared to (say) a $300 netbook. The slate form factor isn't nearly as easy to work with as a clamshell, especially in a 10" size. For a slate, you either need to lay it flat, prop it up against something, or hold it. None of these positions are conducive to easy data entry or comfortable viewing.
The only thing you bring up is a weight of 300g; this compares to an iPhone weight of 135g and iPod Touch weight of 115g. To scale to a 10" screen as rumored, it would be pretty hard to get the weight under 900g, which is a minor savings relative to a comparable netbook. Sure, thickness would be reduced, but would that be enough of a driver to define a new market. To get to that weight you would be limited to about a 5.5-6" screen.
The Kindle DX is 520g; I don't think you are going to find anything lighter than that with that size screen. Reviewers complain that it is too heavy... what can Apple do to innovate on this?
The real give-away is in the paper itself, which says: So, what you have is a general class of flaws, being demonstrated on an Apple in order to get more hype and fame. Seems to be a typical AssHat conference strategy these days.
Also, there is an easy way for end users to protect themselves from this. Use a third party keyboard. This bit of advice is conveniently left out of any of the articles, but if security is an issue in you workplace, I would probably advise it.
I wonder if it affects MacBook/MacBook Pro keyboards?
Yeah, I love these theoretical exercises that require physical access and/or the admin's password.
Targeting Apple is such an easy way to get publicity or web site hits. No one would give a shit, or pay ANY attention, if it were Dell or HP hardware being "compromised".
The way they couch all their BS PR in "helping Apple" or other such nonsense. Simply put: It's a job fair.
AssHat Con: "Crack" a Mac, quit flipping burgers.
Maybe a crank on the side to power it up?
Well, that could be interesting. Sort of like a Grundig radio. I wonder how long you'd have to crank it for a full charge?
Or the guy 4 rows in front of you who talks to the movie screen like he's at home.
One rubber band, a few paper clips, and reasonable aim should solve that problem.
TV is a transitional appliance, which I could see merged with something else at some point. Besides, doesn't iTunes mostly replicate what an TV does?
Not really. Apple TV connects to your iTunes library to stream and play your content on your TV. It also has an interface that allows you to purchase content from the iTunes Store, so, that part is like iTunes. It's a lot easier than hooking your laptop up to your TV. The Apple TV has all the right connections, such as HDMI, as well.
The only problem with the Apple TV is that it gets blazing hot. A few times I had to put an icepack on it because it started going haywire from overheating.
One rubber band, a few paper clips, and reasonable aim should solve that problem.
Yes, but, in NYC that could result in severe bodily harm to yourself. One time I shushed someone who was loudly taking to the screen, and the dude wanted to rumble on the sidewalk afterwards like some high-school bully.
Sorry, but I still can't grasp why this would be such a huge market compared to (say) a $300 netbook. The slate form factor isn't nearly as easy to work with as a clamshell, especially in a 10" size. For a slate, you either need to lay it flat, prop it up against something, or hold it. None of these positions are conducive to easy data entry or comfortable viewing.
The only thing you bring up is a weight of 300g; this compares to an iPhone weight of 135g and iPod Touch weight of 115g. To scale to a 10" screen as rumored, it would be pretty hard to get the weight under 900g, which is a minor savings relative to a comparable netbook. Sure, thickness would be reduced, but would that be enough of a driver to define a new market. To get to that weight you would be limited to about a 5.5-6" screen.
The Kindle DX is 520g; I don't think you are going to find anything lighter than that with that size screen. Reviewers complain that it is too heavy... what can Apple do to innovate on this?
These are all reasons why I wish the rumors were for a 6-inch screen, give or take. The iPhone/touch is just too small for my big hands for typing and my less-than-20/20 vision for veiwing web pages, but I still want something more portable than a 10" screen. Input is going to be the real challenge. It seems like holding it in your hands and typing with your thumbs would be the most common usage. But if you hold it landscape you won't be able to reach all of the keys (unless they use a split keyboard), and if you hold it portrait the balance would seem to be wrong (unless they can move the center of gravity towards the bottom).
I'm sure Apple will come up with some unique solutions to the challenges, but it doesn't seem like a 10" tablet will have enough differentiation to justify the premium pricing over a netbook. Perhaps Apple will be heavily relying on the iPhone halo effect to drive demand?
Isn't this like saying " we found a fatal flaw in Mac hardware that is very easy to exploit, once you get through the first round of really good security... the need for a password to execute the malicious code"?
So, really there is no "there" there, is there? It's not like UAC which prompts for the sun coming up, therefore the mindless clicking of the "allow" button (which I have done hundreds of times).
And the Windows (or Linux) fan-boys are having fun in the comments of the linked article.
All the medical stuff has been a ruse to confuse the rumor makers ... or perhaps, wait, it's not a tablet after all but suite of new iOrgans including a new iLiver with synchronization to the iOrgans store (iSpleen and iPancreas coming soon).
These are all reasons why I wish the rumors were for a 6-inch screen, give or take. The iPhone/touch is just too small for my big hands for typing and my less-than-20/20 vision for veiwing web pages, but I still want something more portable than a 10" screen. Input is going to be the real challenge. It seems like holding it in your hands and typing with your thumbs would be the most common usage. But if you hold it landscape you won't be able to reach all of the keys (unless they use a split keyboard), and if you hold it portrait the balance would seem to be wrong (unless they can move the center of gravity towards the bottom).
I'd go for 6" or 7" device. But I could see them also offering 2 devices: a 6"-7" and a 10" premium model.
Type with thumbs? That's such a cellphone mindset.
Hold it in one hand, type with 2 or 3 fingers with the other. That's what I do 1-fingered on my iPod touch.
Hopefully, there will be a larger "keyboard" so it'll be easier to hit the character you want instead of a chance at the 3 or 4 surrounding it!
I'd also like to see a keyboard option where a few basic punctuation marks are available AT ALL TIMES without being forced to switch between keypad modes.
And if you've exploited the OS to the point where you can run a firmware update on the keyboard, why bother infecting the keyboard? Just do your dirty work directly.
Because once the keyboard is compromised not even a complete wipe and reinstall of OS X will cure it, and supposedly the hack works on laptop keyboards as well.
My avenue of choice would be to exploit Safari or a plug-in via a compromised web page, then infect the keyboard with that reinfects EFI with a download-able payload less the user replace or wipe the hard drive.
EFI and BIO's, the real "root".
I wonder if it affects MacBook/MacBook Pro keyboards?
Yes it does.
Do a System Profiler and look under USB devices, the laptop keyboard is there.
The same underlining technology is standard across all Apple USB keyboards, just different hardware.
Can't believe Apple didn't see this coming, they are smart and it's such a simple hack too, thus it means they purposely allowed this hack for "big brother".
Once you get a keystroke logger in the keyboard firmware, all bets are off for the rest of OS X security.
Yes, but, in NYC that could result in severe bodily harm to yourself. One time I shushed someone who was loudly taking to the screen, and the dude wanted to rumble on the sidewalk afterwards like some high-school bully.
That's why you have to shoot 'n' move, shoot 'n' move...
C'mon the Mac mini's not going anywhere soon.
TV is a transitional appliance, which I could see merged with something else at some point. Besides, doesn't iTunes mostly replicate what an TV does?
Now I connect my MBP to my HDTV for slideshows or showing my work to groups of people (controlled from across the room with Bluetooth mouse and keyboard).
Having a dedicated, networked, internet enabled Mac connected to my TV, with a Blu-ray player on the side, would be great. A mini is perfect for that. I can even mount it to the swing arm the TV is on.
http://www.chiefmfg.com/productdetail.aspx?MountID=55
Playing Call of Duty 4 on such a big screen is kinda trippy, too.
The iPad will augment existing devices, not replace the TV or the Mac mini. It would be for an entirely different purpose/market; everything from a handheld movie viewer/gaming device, to portable music, note taking and even with the addition of external scanners and such (iPhone 3.0 supports them, yes?) could be used by medical staff or FedEx/UPS. Especially if there's a 3G/4G enabled version!
I'd LOVE to have a Lite version of Vectorworks running on this thing!
If done right, it could open up huge markets AND be a way to sneak Macs through the back doors of PC entrenched businesses. I see potentially greater impact than the iPhone has had/is having in that area.
A mac mini offers more functionality than an Apple TV for sure, like if you want to surf the web, play games (although the mini isn't much of a gaming machine as far as horsepower). It would be good if you want to watch hulu videos etc. The mini basically has all the functionality of an apple tv and the front row interface looks pretty much exactly like the apple tv, and it could also replace your dvd player.
The Apple TV is great if all you want to do is access your iTunes content (songs, movies, tv) from your entertainment center. That's what I use mine for and I keep my library on shared storage so any computer in the house, including my apple tv can have access to it.
A mini would be great, but I couldn't justify 600 bucks just to add web and games to my TV. I do all my surfing and gaming at my desk, I already have a dvd player, and mini has no blueray drive. The bade apple tv is only like $229. Also, I think its only the latest minis with the nvidia graphics that support hdcp.
this tablet thing seems only useful as a PORTABLE media device. I can't see using it at home that much when the above solutions seem like better experiences.
Yet another reason why they can have my Apple Extended when they pry it form under my cold, dead fingers.
I still got that old keyboard with the Mac in storage. Very ergonomic. Reminds me of the old IBM, Made in the USA keyboards that were precise with tactile feedback and seldom broke down. I got to find the adapter though.
Once you get a keystroke logger in the keyboard firmware, all bets are off for the rest of OS X security.
How does it get in?
I've read the white paper, and I don't see why you are so sure. He is very specific in the particular firmware update he reverse engineers. It may be possible to reverse engineer the laptop keyboard as well, but he doesn't demonstrate it--and I have no idea if the memory is the same.
The sytem profiler lists:
Apple Internal Keyboard / Trackpad:
Product ID
Vendor ID
Version
Speed
Manufacturer
Location ID
Current Available (mA)
Current Required (mA)
Which is clearly different than the standard keyboards on iMacs.
But all that is window dressing. Any external component that allows flash BIOS updates would potentially have this venerability. It is a serious and interesting topic, but the focus on Apple is just hype.
but the focus on Apple is just hype
Agreed. Windows hole, trojan, virus = yawn. Apple exploitable hole or trojan = world coming to an end. However, they have set themselves up for this by loudly proclaiming they are safer than Windows. I guess the claim is "safer", not "perfectly safe". If their market share continues to increase and they continue to trumpet their "Macs don't get viruses" claim they better be willing to step up to problems and address them quickly.
It's exciting to think we may get a glimpse of this new product sooner than previously anticipated. I don't think they'll call it "iNetbook" though. Isn't Apple's current policy to incorporate "Mac" into the name of all of their computers?
I'm also hoping it's more fully-functional than being focused on watching movies and playing games. It'd be nice to have such a small form factor to do real work on. I'd like it to have a mini DisplayPort for connectivity to external display devices for presentations. Realistically, Apple can't make it too powerful and capable without cannibalizing their MacBook lines.
Sorry, but I still can't grasp why this would be such a huge market compared to (say) a $300 netbook. The slate form factor isn't nearly as easy to work with as a clamshell, especially in a 10" size. For a slate, you either need to lay it flat, prop it up against something, or hold it. None of these positions are conducive to easy data entry or comfortable viewing.
The only thing you bring up is a weight of 300g; this compares to an iPhone weight of 135g and iPod Touch weight of 115g. To scale to a 10" screen as rumored, it would be pretty hard to get the weight under 900g, which is a minor savings relative to a comparable netbook. Sure, thickness would be reduced, but would that be enough of a driver to define a new market. To get to that weight you would be limited to about a 5.5-6" screen.
The Kindle DX is 520g; I don't think you are going to find anything lighter than that with that size screen. Reviewers complain that it is too heavy... what can Apple do to innovate on this?
The weight is our number 1 feature (as light as possible). Then the size (as small as possible). The price is the last concern. For us, the perfect Mac would be the OQO model 2+ with Mac OS X inside. Otherwise, a tablet as small as possible:
http://www.oqo.com
Note: not to work on it. Just for Keynote and PowerPoint presentations. Because even the MacBook Air is too heavy and too large for us.