That Ars review seems pretty good, if a bit cursory. Salient points:
-- OLED screen has nice, poppy contrast, hard to read in direct sunlight
-- Browser sucks (sorry, Gizmodo, I'll take the word of Ars writers over your adolescent excitability any day).
-- The interface is fast and fluid, but non-intuitive at times (four different ways to back out of a screen, small finger targets, clipped text). No hardware volume control, and the button that brings up the volume/transport controls system-wide is difficult to press.
-- Excellent music discoverability services, with excellent integration of the streaming subscription service and HD radio with artist info and extras. However, these services are all predicated on having the Zune Pass, so unless you're willing to shell out a monthly fee, you don't get a lot of the stuff where the Zune actually excels.
--Accelerometer is very responsive and beats the iPhone/Touch for fast and accurate screen rotation.
So all in all sounds like an MS product, with real attention given to a couple of marquee features meant to differentiate, and which will no doubt be heavily advertised, while blowing off some basic UI/functionality issues.
More generally, the Ars review really drives home the point that this is a PMP, and it still seems to me that if you're going to release a device that focuses on music and video playback at the expense of general functionality ala the Touch, at the same price points, you had better make sure that it does music and video a whole lot better than the Touch, if you expect to be competitive. That doesn't seem to be the case, so the market for the Zune HD would appear to be the usual "anybody but Apple" crowd, people for whom better contrast on a tiny screen is really important for their movie enjoyment and folks that just have to have a music subscription service.
And even there, the music subscription carrot isn't as compelling as it once was, as web based services become available for devices like the Touch.
So..... I think the HD will do better than previous Zunes, for a while, then taper back off to irrelevance.
I've just been back there reading an article about the first "free" programs MS is supplying. It seems people are none to happy about the Ads MS is adding to the opening of the games.
Also, programs seem to take too long to open.
With the Ad, the (simple) chess game takes 30 seconds!
Confusing yes, and trade-offs between choosing emerging and maturing technologies, always. But since you seem to know a lot about this, how about AMOLED. My new camera (Samsung TL320) has one - it won't be on every day or for hours - and it's really, really sweet, even in direct sun and way off axis. People notice the difference right away, even with no other cameras around to compare to.
Is this a fundamentally different tech from "regular" OLED in any way? More expensive? Different lifetime and power consumption characteristics? A viable future choice for Apple's iDevice family?
Most of these screens are AMOLED. I don't know if MS's is because it's too early and I haven't read about it.
It's not too different or more difficult to make. AMOLED just means Active Matrix. It takes less current to drive, because it's always on. This doesn't mean that a black pixel has current going through it all the time. OLEDS (called passive) need more overall current, but it's supplied in large pulses. Regular OLEDS have the current turned off when not being used.
The large pulses cause the LEDs to heat up more, reducing life.
They pretty much have the same performance. It's the way they're driven thats different, the OLEDS are the same.
AMOLEDS cost a bit more, but as they'll likely to be used more, the cost will drop faster.
I thought this was funny... not that I necessarily agree with all of his viewpoints. I guess you can call it Apple Fanboy Site vs Microsoft Fanboy Site.
Some of your de-mythed myths are themselves myths. The Tegra is NOT a superior device.
Some of those photo prove nothing.
I used my iPhone outside today, and the screen was almost as good as it was inside.
Also, most of the time, the blacks are VERY good.
I could go on, but dinner beckons (well, actually, it's my wife beckoning).
If Safari is "crashing constantly", you need to do a software update or reset.
Been there, done and paid for that.
Quote:
At any rate, you are in the minority in your opinion of Mobile Safari, which is widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best, mobile browser on the market.
One of the most common complaints about mobile safari is crashing. Minimize the problem all you want.
That's an interesting note. I've had a 1G iPod touch and a 2G iPod touch and BOTH mobile Safari crashed CONSTANTLY on those devices.
However, with my iPhone 3G S, I have not had nearly as many crashes (and the crashes I have had, I could probably count on one hand) since I got the device on launch day. Maybe it's because of the increased memory available?
it doesnt matter, you are in the minority, dnt ya know...
Melgross and others.... This thread has grown quite a bit since I first posted. I do not have time at the moment to post extensive objective reflections on the devices (I have a 3G iPhobe and the HD), but I did want to follow up on my speculation about the Zune and games from the night this thread started.... and say that MS has now added support for XNA developers to develop for the HD (I think Prince said MS abandoned XNA):
So far my initial opinion (will explain in detail later) of the devices:
iPhone 3G offers a better browser experience, though the HD is not bad
HD screen is brighter than iPhone 3G--colors more saturated--sometimes this good, sometimes not
Apps loaded much slower on the HD
HD is way quicker in terms of response (menu navigation, auto rotation of screen, etc.)
Zune software is by far (obviously my opinion and most here will disagree, though most have not used the Zune software--I use both) superior. To be honest I abhor iTunes. I imagine the experience is better on a Mac, but I cannot see how it can be that much better. Did I mention I do not like iTunes. It is way too bloated and the UI is terrible. At least it can now monitor a folder (iTunes 9).
HD UI is easier to navigate (more intuitive)
iPhone has a lot more going for it in terms of its [broad] function. It is more of a mobile computer (which I need). The HD is a media player. As a media player, in my view, it is a much better than the iPhone. I will still be using my iPhone, as I need something a little more broad-reaching and the iPhone delivers.
.
Again, the views of someone who owns both devices and likes them both. Take it for what it is worth. I reserve the right to change my mind as I continue to use the device. So far, it is pretty good (oh, it is smaller than I imagined, which I did not like).
agion1
Since I din't have a Zune HD to play with, I can't comment on the software as you have. But, iTunes, with all it's faults is still considered to be the best at what it does. I'm sure that some people don't like it, but that means little, as most do seem to. Remember this review is from PCmag. Not MACmag:
1) Podcasts have been supported for 2 generations.
2) 3.3 vs 3.5" comes from the fact that the Zune is 16:9, not 4:3. Ya know, like most movies and modern TV shows.
3) Zune has Smart DJ, which is Genius on steroids. Actually works, unlike Genius, and also inserts songs from the marketplace which stream straight off it if you have the subscription.
4) I like how the optional dock is red for a built-in Zune feature, but the addon for the radio for the iPod is a nice black. Double standard.
5) ARM revisions are essentially irrelevant when the Tegra system is more capable by offloading tasks to the other on-chip processors, though that is one of your few valid points.
6) 9 apps, all free.
7) All WiFi abilities mentioned on the iPod are late-comers. The Zune, Gen 1, auto-logged onto your WiFi network to sync when charging, and it would auto-log on when you browsed the marketplace from Gen 2 on.
8) Zune does support rentals; furthermore, their video downloads and rentals are optionally HD or SD.
Probably already been mentioned, but that was so egregiously wrong, I had to comment (and register!)
Your own prejudices and poor assumptions are out in the open. That's nice.
One of the most common complaints about mobile safari is crashing. Minimize the problem all you want.
Most people have found that Mobile Safari has gotten consistently more stable as at has been updated, to the point that the crashiness of the earlier iterations is a thing of the past. As Mel says, once every few weeks seems pretty average, and given the way the app appears to simply quit, allowing you to relaunch immediately, I would put that down as a minor annoyance.
Against that, Mobile Safari is consistently ranked at the top of the heap of mobile browsers, by a broad range of reviewers (including such Apple fan boys as PC World) because of its speed, rendering and navigation-- which is pretty much what browsers are about.
I dont care if Safari is the best of the worst. That is like claiming Pol Pot was great because he was better than other genocidal lunatics.
What is that supposed to mean? Mobile Safari is a great browser. Definitely the best mobile browser around. And the greater resolution and wider screen makes it even better than the Zune HD's smaller, and narrower screen with less resolution.
"Despite the hype, the Zune HD appears to have failed before even hitting the market"
is that why zune 32 is outselling itouch 32 on amazon?
"LCDs: a typical maximum output of 200cd/m^2 compared to around 4-500 for mid-range"
does itouch output that high? NO
"Tegra is also being hyped as providing "8 processing cores,""
is that why itouch still uses technology that came out almost 7 years ago?
... blah, blah, blah
So your course of action seems clear. Go ahead and buy a Zune HD and make yourself happy. I was pissed that I had to buy the 32GB version of the iPod Touch to get the higher speed processing and graphics (can the Zune handle OpenGL ES 2,0?) but there was no real competition by my criteria. It is very useful for us that there are people willing to sacrifice and buy competing products to encourage Apple to innovate and keep prices competitive. I just hope you have convinced yourself even if you can't convince anyone else (on a board devoted to Apple related rumors, as GOB would say "Come on!").
Why not buy a Zune, also without a camera, and no programs, and a crappy browser.
Does anyone remember how it used to be?
Someone would post a provocatively anti-Apple article on a PC magazine site, and get a massive number of hits from irate Mac users. Kind of funny to see this working the other way for a change. Except in those days, Apple was trying to innovate and losing market share, whereas MS is trying to catch up with no market share. If they weren't such a big ruthless monopoly in other markets, I'd feel sorry for them.
As for display technology, I'll be happy if it's an advance but it doesn't have much effect on my choices because Zune isn't sold in my part of the world.
Simple proof. anybody who buys a zuneHD, take it out in daylight (not direct sunlight) and see how the screen looks, and post the results. If it stinks, game over, regardless of the processor speed and rez.
Done. My friend had his new iPhone outside next to my Zune HD. Videos looked better on mine and the zune was generally much easier to see.
I'm guessing the author of this post is terribly jealous. It's not often that you base an argument over weak facts. Maybe we should all save up and get the author a new Zune; it would probably make them happier.
But the main point is Microsoft needs to get their head out of their asses and stop internet explorer. with all of that money they have, they should just buy mozilla and let it be a separate company, but reap the benefits. I don't see a downside to that scenario, unless they fucked up Firefox too.
That would kill Mozilla. No company, be it Microsoft or Apple or IBM should own Mozilla. It's based off of free and open software not bound down by outsiders, part of the reason why it's more advanced than commercial browsers like IE and Safari.
It seems the Zune HD isn't a 'failure' afterall! This will surely come as no surprise to anyone, except Apple Insider.
Right. The Zune's a big winner because a Gizmodo reviewer thinks its a good PMP. Who also wonders if being a good PMP is really enough, in the era of the general purpose device.
Then again, we're seeing lots of articles like this, which point out that the reason the Zune HD is "just a PMP" is that the corporate culture at MS has made a hash of their mobile strategy.
Comments
That Ars review seems pretty good, if a bit cursory. Salient points:
-- OLED screen has nice, poppy contrast, hard to read in direct sunlight
-- Browser sucks (sorry, Gizmodo, I'll take the word of Ars writers over your adolescent excitability any day).
-- The interface is fast and fluid, but non-intuitive at times (four different ways to back out of a screen, small finger targets, clipped text). No hardware volume control, and the button that brings up the volume/transport controls system-wide is difficult to press.
-- Excellent music discoverability services, with excellent integration of the streaming subscription service and HD radio with artist info and extras. However, these services are all predicated on having the Zune Pass, so unless you're willing to shell out a monthly fee, you don't get a lot of the stuff where the Zune actually excels.
--Accelerometer is very responsive and beats the iPhone/Touch for fast and accurate screen rotation.
So all in all sounds like an MS product, with real attention given to a couple of marquee features meant to differentiate, and which will no doubt be heavily advertised, while blowing off some basic UI/functionality issues.
More generally, the Ars review really drives home the point that this is a PMP, and it still seems to me that if you're going to release a device that focuses on music and video playback at the expense of general functionality ala the Touch, at the same price points, you had better make sure that it does music and video a whole lot better than the Touch, if you expect to be competitive. That doesn't seem to be the case, so the market for the Zune HD would appear to be the usual "anybody but Apple" crowd, people for whom better contrast on a tiny screen is really important for their movie enjoyment and folks that just have to have a music subscription service.
And even there, the music subscription carrot isn't as compelling as it once was, as web based services become available for devices like the Touch.
So..... I think the HD will do better than previous Zunes, for a while, then taper back off to irrelevance.
I've just been back there reading an article about the first "free" programs MS is supplying. It seems people are none to happy about the Ads MS is adding to the opening of the games.
Also, programs seem to take too long to open.
With the Ad, the (simple) chess game takes 30 seconds!
Of course, I added my two cents.
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...e-roll-ads.ars
Confusing yes, and trade-offs between choosing emerging and maturing technologies, always. But since you seem to know a lot about this, how about AMOLED. My new camera (Samsung TL320) has one - it won't be on every day or for hours - and it's really, really sweet, even in direct sun and way off axis. People notice the difference right away, even with no other cameras around to compare to.
Is this a fundamentally different tech from "regular" OLED in any way? More expensive? Different lifetime and power consumption characteristics? A viable future choice for Apple's iDevice family?
Most of these screens are AMOLED. I don't know if MS's is because it's too early and I haven't read about it.
It's not too different or more difficult to make. AMOLED just means Active Matrix. It takes less current to drive, because it's always on. This doesn't mean that a black pixel has current going through it all the time. OLEDS (called passive) need more overall current, but it's supplied in large pulses. Regular OLEDS have the current turned off when not being used.
The large pulses cause the LEDs to heat up more, reducing life.
They pretty much have the same performance. It's the way they're driven thats different, the OLEDS are the same.
AMOLEDS cost a bit more, but as they'll likely to be used more, the cost will drop faster.
I thought this was funny... not that I necessarily agree with all of his viewpoints. I guess you can call it Apple Fanboy Site vs Microsoft Fanboy Site.
Some of your de-mythed myths are themselves myths. The Tegra is NOT a superior device.
Some of those photo prove nothing.
I used my iPhone outside today, and the screen was almost as good as it was inside.
Also, most of the time, the blacks are VERY good.
I could go on, but dinner beckons (well, actually, it's my wife beckoning).
Itunes 9 CANNOT monitor any folders like it's 1989. And they this the best music management software? I think not. SLow bloatware is what I call it.
As I said, I do not care for iTunes and I agree that it is bloated. However, with iTunes 9, it can now watch a folder.
http://lifehacker.com/5356619/itunes...-add-new-music
If Safari is "crashing constantly", you need to do a software update or reset.
Been there, done and paid for that.
At any rate, you are in the minority in your opinion of Mobile Safari, which is widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best, mobile browser on the market.
One of the most common complaints about mobile safari is crashing. Minimize the problem all you want.
That's an interesting note. I've had a 1G iPod touch and a 2G iPod touch and BOTH mobile Safari crashed CONSTANTLY on those devices.
However, with my iPhone 3G S, I have not had nearly as many crashes (and the crashes I have had, I could probably count on one hand) since I got the device on launch day. Maybe it's because of the increased memory available?
it doesnt matter, you are in the minority, dnt ya know...
Melgross and others.... This thread has grown quite a bit since I first posted. I do not have time at the moment to post extensive objective reflections on the devices (I have a 3G iPhobe and the HD), but I did want to follow up on my speculation about the Zune and games from the night this thread started.... and say that MS has now added support for XNA developers to develop for the HD (I think Prince said MS abandoned XNA):
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
So far my initial opinion (will explain in detail later) of the devices:
- iPhone 3G offers a better browser experience, though the HD is not bad
- HD screen is brighter than iPhone 3G--colors more saturated--sometimes this good, sometimes not
- Apps loaded much slower on the HD
- HD is way quicker in terms of response (menu navigation, auto rotation of screen, etc.)
- Zune software is by far (obviously my opinion and most here will disagree, though most have not used the Zune software--I use both) superior. To be honest I abhor iTunes. I imagine the experience is better on a Mac, but I cannot see how it can be that much better. Did I mention I do not like iTunes. It is way too bloated and the UI is terrible. At least it can now monitor a folder (iTunes 9).
- HD UI is easier to navigate (more intuitive)
- iPhone has a lot more going for it in terms of its [broad] function. It is more of a mobile computer (which I need). The HD is a media player. As a media player, in my view, it is a much better than the iPhone. I will still be using my iPhone, as I need something a little more broad-reaching and the iPhone delivers.
.Again, the views of someone who owns both devices and likes them both. Take it for what it is worth. I reserve the right to change my mind as I continue to use the device. So far, it is pretty good (oh, it is smaller than I imagined, which I did not like).
agion1
Since I din't have a Zune HD to play with, I can't comment on the software as you have. But, iTunes, with all it's faults is still considered to be the best at what it does. I'm sure that some people don't like it, but that means little, as most do seem to. Remember this review is from PCmag. Not MACmag:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2352720,00.asp
And you can be sure that the one "poor" reader review, is from some anti-Mac person trying to make a point.
Quick debunking here:
1) Podcasts have been supported for 2 generations.
2) 3.3 vs 3.5" comes from the fact that the Zune is 16:9, not 4:3. Ya know, like most movies and modern TV shows.
3) Zune has Smart DJ, which is Genius on steroids. Actually works, unlike Genius, and also inserts songs from the marketplace which stream straight off it if you have the subscription.
4) I like how the optional dock is red for a built-in Zune feature, but the addon for the radio for the iPod is a nice black. Double standard.
5) ARM revisions are essentially irrelevant when the Tegra system is more capable by offloading tasks to the other on-chip processors, though that is one of your few valid points.
6) 9 apps, all free.
7) All WiFi abilities mentioned on the iPod are late-comers. The Zune, Gen 1, auto-logged onto your WiFi network to sync when charging, and it would auto-log on when you browsed the marketplace from Gen 2 on.
8) Zune does support rentals; furthermore, their video downloads and rentals are optionally HD or SD.
Probably already been mentioned, but that was so egregiously wrong, I had to comment (and register!)
Your own prejudices and poor assumptions are out in the open. That's nice.
Been there, done and paid for that.
One of the most common complaints about mobile safari is crashing. Minimize the problem all you want.
It was crashing me once a week or so when I first bought it, but the last 6 months or so it only crashes once every few weeks.
Been there, done and paid for that.
One of the most common complaints about mobile safari is crashing. Minimize the problem all you want.
Most people have found that Mobile Safari has gotten consistently more stable as at has been updated, to the point that the crashiness of the earlier iterations is a thing of the past. As Mel says, once every few weeks seems pretty average, and given the way the app appears to simply quit, allowing you to relaunch immediately, I would put that down as a minor annoyance.
Against that, Mobile Safari is consistently ranked at the top of the heap of mobile browsers, by a broad range of reviewers (including such Apple fan boys as PC World) because of its speed, rendering and navigation-- which is pretty much what browsers are about.
Minimize that all you want.
I dont care if Safari is the best of the worst. That is like claiming Pol Pot was great because he was better than other genocidal lunatics.
yet people are still commenting on it...
I dont care if Safari is the best of the worst. That is like claiming Pol Pot was great because he was better than other genocidal lunatics.
What is that supposed to mean? Mobile Safari is a great browser. Definitely the best mobile browser around. And the greater resolution and wider screen makes it even better than the Zune HD's smaller, and narrower screen with less resolution.
Logic is not a strong suit, eh?
"Despite the hype, the Zune HD appears to have failed before even hitting the market"
is that why zune 32 is outselling itouch 32 on amazon?
"LCDs: a typical maximum output of 200cd/m^2 compared to around 4-500 for mid-range"
does itouch output that high? NO
"Tegra is also being hyped as providing "8 processing cores,""
is that why itouch still uses technology that came out almost 7 years ago?
... blah, blah, blah
So your course of action seems clear. Go ahead and buy a Zune HD and make yourself happy. I was pissed that I had to buy the 32GB version of the iPod Touch to get the higher speed processing and graphics (can the Zune handle OpenGL ES 2,0?) but there was no real competition by my criteria. It is very useful for us that there are people willing to sacrifice and buy competing products to encourage Apple to innovate and keep prices competitive. I just hope you have convinced yourself even if you can't convince anyone else (on a board devoted to Apple related rumors, as GOB would say "Come on!").
Wow! What a helpful remark.
Why not buy a Zune, also without a camera, and no programs, and a crappy browser.
Does anyone remember how it used to be?
Someone would post a provocatively anti-Apple article on a PC magazine site, and get a massive number of hits from irate Mac users. Kind of funny to see this working the other way for a change. Except in those days, Apple was trying to innovate and losing market share, whereas MS is trying to catch up with no market share. If they weren't such a big ruthless monopoly in other markets, I'd feel sorry for them.
As for display technology, I'll be happy if it's an advance but it doesn't have much effect on my choices because Zune isn't sold in my part of the world.
It seems the Zune HD isn't a 'failure' afterall! This will surely come as no surprise to anyone, except Apple Insider.
Simple proof. anybody who buys a zuneHD, take it out in daylight (not direct sunlight) and see how the screen looks, and post the results. If it stinks, game over, regardless of the processor speed and rez.
Done. My friend had his new iPhone outside next to my Zune HD. Videos looked better on mine and the zune was generally much easier to see.
I'm guessing the author of this post is terribly jealous. It's not often that you base an argument over weak facts. Maybe we should all save up and get the author a new Zune; it would probably make them happier.
But the main point is Microsoft needs to get their head out of their asses and stop internet explorer. with all of that money they have, they should just buy mozilla and let it be a separate company, but reap the benefits. I don't see a downside to that scenario, unless they fucked up Firefox too.
That would kill Mozilla. No company, be it Microsoft or Apple or IBM should own Mozilla. It's based off of free and open software not bound down by outsiders, part of the reason why it's more advanced than commercial browsers like IE and Safari.
sigh
Logic is not a strong suit, eh?
No, he just doesn't agree with you. He thinks Mobile Safari is pretty good, not just the best of a bad lot.
http://gizmodo.com/5360126/zune-hd-r...he-pmp-evolved
It seems the Zune HD isn't a 'failure' afterall! This will surely come as no surprise to anyone, except Apple Insider.
Right. The Zune's a big winner because a Gizmodo reviewer thinks its a good PMP. Who also wonders if being a good PMP is really enough, in the era of the general purpose device.
Then again, we're seeing lots of articles like this, which point out that the reason the Zune HD is "just a PMP" is that the corporate culture at MS has made a hash of their mobile strategy.