PS. Sharon is much more dangerous to everyone that Arafat.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is retarded. Last year Sharon was Israel's foreign minister when Barak was attempting to negotiate with Arafat for peace at the Wye Plantation. No, Sharon was no dove. Barak was. But despite any personal misgivings Sharon may have felt, he did work for a peace that Arafat subsequently walked away from. The facts don't support your position.
First off, Arafat only started taking action AFTER Israel bombed his offices and helicopters. Palestinians understand force, not overtures.
Secondly, Arafat IS irrelevant to Israel if he did not want or could not crush Hamas and Jihad. Israel's mistake was waiting so long to demand their destruction. It should have been a precondition to peace talks.
Third, there are other Palestinian moderates who could take over but none with his visibility and support.
Fourth, our support for Israel has NOTHING to do with Bin Laden et al. We would still be involved in the mideast regardless and would still make enemies (eg, Iraq)
Fifth, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Palestinians they want to live side by side in secure borders.
Six, if Palestinians didn't kill Israelis, Israelis wouldn't kill Palestinians. Israel only acts in defense. No violence on Arafats side means no violence on Israels side.
Last but not least, its easy for us to judge Israel when we live over here. After Sep 11, try to imagine living in that atmosphere every day, every week, every month. Can you remember the anger you felt after sep11? Imagine feeling that way every week and trying to control your anger knowing that your countries army could easily eliminate the entire population of those that are attacking you, yet you still try to work something out. Try thinking about that next time you think Israel is overreacting to the slaughter. They are trying and have been trying to work out a peaceful solution to the problem for years. The thanks they get for their troubles is a much less safe living environment. Yet they still try. I find that quite impressive. The US, or any other country would never be that patient...................................
Looks like "The Irrelevan Man" just decided that he cannot win the popular opinion and is now calling for Jihad.
A Quote:
[quote]Arafat said he is willing to sacrifice 70 Palestinians to ensure the death of one Israeli. The speech was broadcast several times on PA radio. "We will defend the holy land with our blood and with our spirit," Arafat told supporters from Jerusalem. "We do not only wear uniforms; we are all military. We are all martyrs in paradise."<hr></blockquote>
Sounds like a nice level-headed thing to say. He definately wants peace...
Steve 666: If Isreal (who is isreal exactly?) wants to live side by side with palestinians, why do the settlements inside Gaza exist?
AND: talking about the 11th of Sep, It is Palestinian houses and Official buildings that are beeing bombed and demolished not israeli. Try understanding their anger as well...
NoahJ: This quote is absolutly awfull i agree, but I read from the article that Arafat was talking about the defence of palestinian areas... The retoric of the leaders on both sides here is absoultly horrible, you should check out some of the Sharon quotes in Groverats link...
<strong>Steve 666: If Isreal (who is isreal exactly?) wants to live side by side with palestinians, why do the settlements inside Gaza exist?
AND: talking about the 11th of Sep, It is Palestinian houses and Official buildings that are beeing bombed and demolished not israeli. Try understanding their anger as well...</strong><hr></blockquote>
So this justifies the killing of women and children. Why not just evict the settlers? What's Israel supposed to do? Allow a Hamas safe house to go untouched? The US wouldn't allow an Al Quada safe house to go untouched.
>Steve 666: If Isreal (who is isreal exactly?) wants to live side by side with palestinians, why do the settlements inside Gaza exist?
AND: talking about the 11th of Sep, It is Palestinian houses and Official buildings that are beeing bombed and demolished not israeli. Try understanding their anger as well...
NoahJ: This quote is absolutly awfull i agree, but I read from the article that Arafat was talking about the defence of palestinian areas... <
The settlements inside Gaza exist because Israel figured since the Palestinians will never trade land for peace, they are now ours. I don't happen to agree with the settlements though because they are hard to defend against attacks and if there is a land for peace deal it will be a political problem uprooting the settlers.
The Palestinian houses and official buildings are being destroyed as a result of the attacks against Israel. Like I said, no Palestinian attacks, no Israeli attacks-simple isn't it?
As for Arafats comments and your attempt to excuse them, his words are inexcusable and so are your attempts to appease a killer. Arafat talks out of both sides of his mouth and his hands are covered with blood.
[quote]talking about the 11th of Sep, It is Palestinian houses and Official buildings that are beeing bombed and demolished not israeli.<hr></blockquote>
Right, the Palestinians are going after the Israeli cabinet members in person, not their houses.
Steve, thanks for that bit of comic relief, I needed a good laugh.
Now that I've composed myself:
[quote]First off, Arafat only started taking action AFTER Israel bombed his offices and helicopters. Palestinians understand force, not overtures.<hr></blockquote>
That's not true at all. Arrests and detentions were made by Arafat and Co., just not fast enough for Sharon's liking.
(Nice bigoted statement at the end there.)
[quote]Secondly, Arafat IS irrelevant to Israel if he did not want or could not crush Hamas and Jihad.<hr></blockquote>
What of the vast majority of Palestinians who aren't suicide bombers? You know, the people Arafat was voted in by. Do they not count?
[quote]Third, there are other Palestinian moderates who could take over but none with his visibility and support.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, which is exactly why it's a stupid move to not try and deal with him.
[quote]Fifth, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Palestinians they want to live side by side in secure borders.<hr></blockquote>
Secure borders so long as they are flexible, moving outwards.
[quote]Six, if Palestinians didn't kill Israelis, Israelis wouldn't kill Palestinians. Israel only acts in defense. No violence on Arafats side means no violence on Israels side.<hr></blockquote>
Let's see. Israel wins a war in a big way and stays on land it had been ordered not to. They send in settlers to the Palestinian territory and refuse, despite U.S. and U.N. demands, to give back the territory.
Who is the aggressor? Not as clear cut as you'd like to make it seem.
[quote]Imagine feeling that way every week and trying to control your anger knowing that your countries army could easily eliminate the entire population of those that are attacking you, yet you still try to work something out.<hr></blockquote>
Except in Hebrew "work something out" translates to "send in rocket attacks".
Ostensibly, it would be quite easy to get peace. Remove the Israelis from Palestinian territory, pull all military forces out of Palestine. Why haven't they tried that yet?
>That's not true at all. Arrests and detentions were made by Arafat and Co., just not fast enough for Sharon's liking.
(Nice bigoted statement at the end there.)<
Me: Thats a load of crap and you know it. Arafat's own henchmen wondered aloud to a NewsWeek reporter why Arafat didn't act sooner and why he waited till it was too late. He arrested people, then released him a few days later. Open your eyes. The last statement was truth, proven time and time again.
Six, if Palestinians didn't kill Israelis, Israelis wouldn't kill Palestinians. Israel only acts in defense. No violence on Arafats side means no violence on Israels side.
>Let's see. Israel wins a war in a big way and stays on land it had been ordered not to. They send in settlers to the Palestinian territory and refuse, despite U.S. and U.N. demands, to give back the territory.
Who is the aggressor? Not as clear cut as you'd like to make it seem.>
If the UN ORDERED the United States to give back land to Mexico after winning their war in a big way how loud would the 'Kiss My Ass' reply be?
Why on Earth would they give back territory without a gaurantee of security? What country in the world would ever do that? Whats the matter-some Jews who are tired of being pushed around makes you nervous? Maybe Israelis are tired of the poor, weak Jewish persona that the World loves so much. Israelis have the same right as every other country to live in peace and security. The United Nations doesn't give a shit about Israel and they know it-Israel will sign a peace treaty that THEY want, not the UN. As for the settlers, I personally believe it was a mistake but lets face it, the peaceniks lost out to the Right Wing in Israel with the election of Menachim Begin. That was the result of years of the Palestinians refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Reap what you sow.
Imagine feeling that way every week and trying to control your anger knowing that your countries army could easily eliminate the entire population of those that are attacking you, yet you still try to work something out.
>Except in Hebrew "work something out" translates to "send in rocket attacks".
Ostensibly, it would be quite easy to get peace. Remove the Israelis from Palestinian territory, pull all military forces out of Palestine. Why haven't they tried that yet? <
That would give them peace? That would stop Palestinian suicide attacks? The Palestinian territories were put under Palestinian Authority in the first phase of the peace talks. Didn't work out so well for Israel did it?
[quote]Thats a load of crap and you know it. Arafat's own henchmen wondered aloud to a NewsWeek reporter why Arafat didn't act sooner and why he waited till it was too late.<hr></blockquote>
Act on what? You can't arrest suicide bombers, they're already dead.
Arafat doesn't have the power to shut down the jihad movement, why hold him responsible for that?
[quote]He arrested people, then released him a few days later.<hr></blockquote>
Do we know of any specifics on any of those? Was a suicide bomber arrested and released?
[quote]Open your eyes. The last statement was truth, proven time and time again.<hr></blockquote>
If you take that attitude then the exact same logic can be applied to the Israelis, except they don't listen to the U.N. and U.S., or even to force.
[quote]Apparemtly not to Arafat.<hr></blockquote>
Explain.
[quote]If he actually DOES what he says he will do this time, then he deserves a second and last chance.<hr></blockquote>
Here are the options:
Deal with Arafat and let him extend all the power he has. Push him too far and he will lose all power. Then the radicals take over, then there is war.
Which is fine, if war is the goal then war is the goal. This sanctimony and "attempts" at creating peace make me sick. It's a sheepshow.
[quote]For a conquering nation they are pretty ****ing generous.<hr></blockquote>
Howso? By occupying territory they were told not to? By illegally forcing themselves on territory that's not theirs, and then firing rockets at those who try and get them off their territory?
Might makes right?
[quote]If the UN ORDERED the United States to give back land to Mexico after winning their war in a big way how loud would the 'Kiss My Ass' reply be?<hr></blockquote>
Conjecture.
If my Aunt Sally had a dick she'd be Uncle Steve.
[quote]Why on Earth would they give back territory without a gaurantee of security?<hr></blockquote>
What the hell does that even mean?
[quote]Whats the matter-some Jews who are tired of being pushed around makes you nervous?<hr></blockquote>
The Jews aren't getting pushed around by anyone. They beat the shit out of the Arabs multiple times, they can handle themselves. Palestine is no occupation threat to Israel.
What's the matter, some Palestinians who are tired of being pushed around makes you nervous?
[quote]Maybe Israelis are tired of the poor, weak Jewish persona that the World loves so much.<hr></blockquote>
?
[quote]Israelis have the same right as every other country to live in peace and security.<hr></blockquote>
Yet they do quite a bit to make sure they don't have it. No one deserves terrorist attacks, but I'll shed no tears as long as they illegally occupy someone else's territory.
[quote]The United Nations doesn't give a shit about Israel and they know it<hr></blockquote>
The U.N. CREATED Israel!
Israel is the U.S.'s biggest welfare baby. We ship them money and guns like Santa on Christmas. They killed American soldiers and we told them, "Don't worry about it, happens to the best of us."
The most the U.N. has done is tell them to get out of land that isn't theirs. They don't comply, so the U.N. throws up its hands.
[quote]As for the settlers, I personally believe it was a mistake but lets face it, the peaceniks lost out to the Right Wing in Israel with the election of Menachim Begin. That was the result of years of the Palestinians refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Reap what you sow.<hr></blockquote>
Israel beat the Arabs quite soundly in multiple wars. They are not in danger of losing their nation, only in danger from terrorism. Occupying other people's land with your settlers and military is not a way to combat terrorism.
And your use of "was" is idiotic, it IS a mistake. It's going on now. They are still there and they impose themselves on the Palestinians every day.
[quote]That would give them peace? That would stop Palestinian suicide attacks? The Palestinian territories were put under Palestinian Authority in the first phase of the peace talks. Didn't work out so well for Israel did it?<hr></blockquote>
Land was taken from Palestinians to create Israel, it's understandable that having their holy sites taken from them might upset them a little. That was 50 years ago.
Times change, and so do attitudes. Israel is not going away and only the hardest of the hardliners still think Israel will be pushed into the sea.
The gripe now amoung the young Muslims (which makes up the terrorist movement) is Israeli occupation of Palestinian land and American involvement in the Middle East. Those are the issues, NOT Israel's right to exist. It's a bully pulpit that is obsolete.
<strong>Ostensibly, it would be quite easy to get peace. Remove the Israelis from Palestinian territory, pull all military forces out of Palestine. Why haven't they tried that yet?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds easy enough, but the problem with that piece of conjecture is that every time Israel does pull back it's military there are more bombings and shootings. The last couple have been just in times that you describe. Israel pulled back and the next couple of day if not the very next day there was another bombing. I think that the suicide bombers and those that send them count as the hardliners who want to see Israel not just pushed into the sea, but as a nation forgotten. Israel will not pull back it's military for that reason and many others.
<strong>Act on what? You can't arrest suicide bombers, they're already dead.
Arafat doesn't have the power to shut down the jihad movement, why hold him responsible for that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
So why are we even talking about a Palestinian state? If they can't or won't police themselves why should Israel trust them?
[quote]<strong>Times change, and so do attitudes. Israel is not going away and only the hardest of the hardliners still think Israel will be pushed into the sea.
The gripe now amoung the young Muslims (which makes up the terrorist movement) is ... NOT Israel's right to exist. It's a bully pulpit that is obsolete.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where have you been? That's nonsense and you should know better.
Comments
Israel on the other had can (will) elect a dove in more peaceful times. Thier government is not based on the whim of a single person even now.
Too bad the Arab/Muslim world does not have a Mahatma Gandhi or a Martin Luther King. Or even a Chuchill or an Eisenhower.
<strong>
PS. Sharon is much more dangerous to everyone that Arafat.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is retarded. Last year Sharon was Israel's foreign minister when Barak was attempting to negotiate with Arafat for peace at the Wye Plantation. No, Sharon was no dove. Barak was. But despite any personal misgivings Sharon may have felt, he did work for a peace that Arafat subsequently walked away from. The facts don't support your position.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
Secondly, Arafat IS irrelevant to Israel if he did not want or could not crush Hamas and Jihad. Israel's mistake was waiting so long to demand their destruction. It should have been a precondition to peace talks.
Third, there are other Palestinian moderates who could take over but none with his visibility and support.
Fourth, our support for Israel has NOTHING to do with Bin Laden et al. We would still be involved in the mideast regardless and would still make enemies (eg, Iraq)
Fifth, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Palestinians they want to live side by side in secure borders.
Six, if Palestinians didn't kill Israelis, Israelis wouldn't kill Palestinians. Israel only acts in defense. No violence on Arafats side means no violence on Israels side.
Last but not least, its easy for us to judge Israel when we live over here. After Sep 11, try to imagine living in that atmosphere every day, every week, every month. Can you remember the anger you felt after sep11? Imagine feeling that way every week and trying to control your anger knowing that your countries army could easily eliminate the entire population of those that are attacking you, yet you still try to work something out. Try thinking about that next time you think Israel is overreacting to the slaughter. They are trying and have been trying to work out a peaceful solution to the problem for years. The thanks they get for their troubles is a much less safe living environment. Yet they still try. I find that quite impressive. The US, or any other country would never be that patient...................................
Looks like "The Irrelevan Man" just decided that he cannot win the popular opinion and is now calling for Jihad.
A Quote:
[quote]Arafat said he is willing to sacrifice 70 Palestinians to ensure the death of one Israeli. The speech was broadcast several times on PA radio. "We will defend the holy land with our blood and with our spirit," Arafat told supporters from Jerusalem. "We do not only wear uniforms; we are all military. We are all martyrs in paradise."<hr></blockquote>
Sounds like a nice level-headed thing to say. He definately wants peace...
AND: talking about the 11th of Sep, It is Palestinian houses and Official buildings that are beeing bombed and demolished not israeli. Try understanding their anger as well...
NoahJ: This quote is absolutly awfull i agree, but I read from the article that Arafat was talking about the defence of palestinian areas... The retoric of the leaders on both sides here is absoultly horrible, you should check out some of the Sharon quotes in Groverats link...
<strong>Steve 666: If Isreal (who is isreal exactly?) wants to live side by side with palestinians, why do the settlements inside Gaza exist?
AND: talking about the 11th of Sep, It is Palestinian houses and Official buildings that are beeing bombed and demolished not israeli. Try understanding their anger as well...</strong><hr></blockquote>
So this justifies the killing of women and children. Why not just evict the settlers? What's Israel supposed to do? Allow a Hamas safe house to go untouched? The US wouldn't allow an Al Quada safe house to go untouched.
<strong>Oh gee, no journalistic/poltiical bias here, even though the writer of the second article is of Jewish faith.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yea those Jews should shut the **** up
AND: talking about the 11th of Sep, It is Palestinian houses and Official buildings that are beeing bombed and demolished not israeli. Try understanding their anger as well...
NoahJ: This quote is absolutly awfull i agree, but I read from the article that Arafat was talking about the defence of palestinian areas... <
The settlements inside Gaza exist because Israel figured since the Palestinians will never trade land for peace, they are now ours. I don't happen to agree with the settlements though because they are hard to defend against attacks and if there is a land for peace deal it will be a political problem uprooting the settlers.
The Palestinian houses and official buildings are being destroyed as a result of the attacks against Israel. Like I said, no Palestinian attacks, no Israeli attacks-simple isn't it?
As for Arafats comments and your attempt to excuse them, his words are inexcusable and so are your attempts to appease a killer. Arafat talks out of both sides of his mouth and his hands are covered with blood.
.................................................. .......
Right, the Palestinians are going after the Israeli cabinet members in person, not their houses.
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/17/israel.zeevi/</a>;
Now that I've composed myself:
[quote]First off, Arafat only started taking action AFTER Israel bombed his offices and helicopters. Palestinians understand force, not overtures.<hr></blockquote>
That's not true at all. Arrests and detentions were made by Arafat and Co., just not fast enough for Sharon's liking.
(Nice bigoted statement at the end there.)
[quote]Secondly, Arafat IS irrelevant to Israel if he did not want or could not crush Hamas and Jihad.<hr></blockquote>
What of the vast majority of Palestinians who aren't suicide bombers? You know, the people Arafat was voted in by. Do they not count?
[quote]Third, there are other Palestinian moderates who could take over but none with his visibility and support.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, which is exactly why it's a stupid move to not try and deal with him.
[quote]Fifth, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Palestinians they want to live side by side in secure borders.<hr></blockquote>
Secure borders so long as they are flexible, moving outwards.
[quote]Six, if Palestinians didn't kill Israelis, Israelis wouldn't kill Palestinians. Israel only acts in defense. No violence on Arafats side means no violence on Israels side.<hr></blockquote>
Let's see. Israel wins a war in a big way and stays on land it had been ordered not to. They send in settlers to the Palestinian territory and refuse, despite U.S. and U.N. demands, to give back the territory.
Who is the aggressor? Not as clear cut as you'd like to make it seem.
[quote]Imagine feeling that way every week and trying to control your anger knowing that your countries army could easily eliminate the entire population of those that are attacking you, yet you still try to work something out.<hr></blockquote>
Except in Hebrew "work something out" translates to "send in rocket attacks".
Ostensibly, it would be quite easy to get peace. Remove the Israelis from Palestinian territory, pull all military forces out of Palestine. Why haven't they tried that yet?
Now that I've composed myself:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off, Arafat only started taking action AFTER Israel bombed his offices and helicopters. Palestinians understand force, not overtures.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>That's not true at all. Arrests and detentions were made by Arafat and Co., just not fast enough for Sharon's liking.
(Nice bigoted statement at the end there.)<
Me: Thats a load of crap and you know it. Arafat's own henchmen wondered aloud to a NewsWeek reporter why Arafat didn't act sooner and why he waited till it was too late. He arrested people, then released him a few days later. Open your eyes. The last statement was truth, proven time and time again.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secondly, Arafat IS irrelevant to Israel if he did not want or could not crush Hamas and Jihad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>What of the vast majority of Palestinians who aren't suicide bombers? You know, the people Arafat was voted in by. Do they not count?<
Apparemtly not to Arafat.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Third, there are other Palestinian moderates who could take over but none with his visibility and support.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Yes, which is exactly why it's a stupid move to not try and deal with him.<
If he actually DOES what he says he will do this time, then he deserves a second and last chance.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fifth, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Palestinians they want to live side by side in secure borders.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Secure borders so long as they are flexible, moving outwards. <
For a conquering nation they are pretty ****ing generous.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Six, if Palestinians didn't kill Israelis, Israelis wouldn't kill Palestinians. Israel only acts in defense. No violence on Arafats side means no violence on Israels side.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Let's see. Israel wins a war in a big way and stays on land it had been ordered not to. They send in settlers to the Palestinian territory and refuse, despite U.S. and U.N. demands, to give back the territory.
Who is the aggressor? Not as clear cut as you'd like to make it seem.>
If the UN ORDERED the United States to give back land to Mexico after winning their war in a big way how loud would the 'Kiss My Ass' reply be?
Why on Earth would they give back territory without a gaurantee of security? What country in the world would ever do that? Whats the matter-some Jews who are tired of being pushed around makes you nervous? Maybe Israelis are tired of the poor, weak Jewish persona that the World loves so much. Israelis have the same right as every other country to live in peace and security. The United Nations doesn't give a shit about Israel and they know it-Israel will sign a peace treaty that THEY want, not the UN. As for the settlers, I personally believe it was a mistake but lets face it, the peaceniks lost out to the Right Wing in Israel with the election of Menachim Begin. That was the result of years of the Palestinians refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Reap what you sow.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imagine feeling that way every week and trying to control your anger knowing that your countries army could easily eliminate the entire population of those that are attacking you, yet you still try to work something out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Except in Hebrew "work something out" translates to "send in rocket attacks".
Ostensibly, it would be quite easy to get peace. Remove the Israelis from Palestinian territory, pull all military forces out of Palestine. Why haven't they tried that yet? <
That would give them peace? That would stop Palestinian suicide attacks? The Palestinian territories were put under Palestinian Authority in the first phase of the peace talks. Didn't work out so well for Israel did it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act on what? You can't arrest suicide bombers, they're already dead.
Arafat doesn't have the power to shut down the jihad movement, why hold him responsible for that?
[quote]He arrested people, then released him a few days later.<hr></blockquote>
Do we know of any specifics on any of those? Was a suicide bomber arrested and released?
[quote]Open your eyes. The last statement was truth, proven time and time again.<hr></blockquote>
If you take that attitude then the exact same logic can be applied to the Israelis, except they don't listen to the U.N. and U.S., or even to force.
[quote]Apparemtly not to Arafat.<hr></blockquote>
Explain.
[quote]If he actually DOES what he says he will do this time, then he deserves a second and last chance.<hr></blockquote>
Here are the options:
Deal with Arafat and let him extend all the power he has. Push him too far and he will lose all power. Then the radicals take over, then there is war.
Which is fine, if war is the goal then war is the goal. This sanctimony and "attempts" at creating peace make me sick. It's a sheepshow.
[quote]For a conquering nation they are pretty ****ing generous.<hr></blockquote>
Howso? By occupying territory they were told not to? By illegally forcing themselves on territory that's not theirs, and then firing rockets at those who try and get them off their territory?
Might makes right?
[quote]If the UN ORDERED the United States to give back land to Mexico after winning their war in a big way how loud would the 'Kiss My Ass' reply be?<hr></blockquote>
Conjecture.
If my Aunt Sally had a dick she'd be Uncle Steve.
[quote]Why on Earth would they give back territory without a gaurantee of security?<hr></blockquote>
What the hell does that even mean?
[quote]Whats the matter-some Jews who are tired of being pushed around makes you nervous?<hr></blockquote>
The Jews aren't getting pushed around by anyone. They beat the shit out of the Arabs multiple times, they can handle themselves. Palestine is no occupation threat to Israel.
What's the matter, some Palestinians who are tired of being pushed around makes you nervous?
[quote]Maybe Israelis are tired of the poor, weak Jewish persona that the World loves so much.<hr></blockquote>
?
[quote]Israelis have the same right as every other country to live in peace and security.<hr></blockquote>
Yet they do quite a bit to make sure they don't have it. No one deserves terrorist attacks, but I'll shed no tears as long as they illegally occupy someone else's territory.
[quote]The United Nations doesn't give a shit about Israel and they know it<hr></blockquote>
The U.N. CREATED Israel!
Israel is the U.S.'s biggest welfare baby. We ship them money and guns like Santa on Christmas. They killed American soldiers and we told them, "Don't worry about it, happens to the best of us."
The most the U.N. has done is tell them to get out of land that isn't theirs. They don't comply, so the U.N. throws up its hands.
[quote]As for the settlers, I personally believe it was a mistake but lets face it, the peaceniks lost out to the Right Wing in Israel with the election of Menachim Begin. That was the result of years of the Palestinians refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Reap what you sow.<hr></blockquote>
Israel beat the Arabs quite soundly in multiple wars. They are not in danger of losing their nation, only in danger from terrorism. Occupying other people's land with your settlers and military is not a way to combat terrorism.
And your use of "was" is idiotic, it IS a mistake. It's going on now. They are still there and they impose themselves on the Palestinians every day.
[quote]That would give them peace? That would stop Palestinian suicide attacks? The Palestinian territories were put under Palestinian Authority in the first phase of the peace talks. Didn't work out so well for Israel did it?<hr></blockquote>
Land was taken from Palestinians to create Israel, it's understandable that having their holy sites taken from them might upset them a little. That was 50 years ago.
Times change, and so do attitudes. Israel is not going away and only the hardest of the hardliners still think Israel will be pushed into the sea.
The gripe now amoung the young Muslims (which makes up the terrorist movement) is Israeli occupation of Palestinian land and American involvement in the Middle East. Those are the issues, NOT Israel's right to exist. It's a bully pulpit that is obsolete.
<strong>Ostensibly, it would be quite easy to get peace. Remove the Israelis from Palestinian territory, pull all military forces out of Palestine. Why haven't they tried that yet?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds easy enough, but the problem with that piece of conjecture is that every time Israel does pull back it's military there are more bombings and shootings. The last couple have been just in times that you describe. Israel pulled back and the next couple of day if not the very next day there was another bombing. I think that the suicide bombers and those that send them count as the hardliners who want to see Israel not just pushed into the sea, but as a nation forgotten. Israel will not pull back it's military for that reason and many others.
A Mahatma Gandhi? An MLK? What? I really can't believe you said that Scott!. but I guess you did. Give me a day/week to recover...
:eek: :eek:
Arafat said that when? In the 70s, back when he was actually a terrorist type?
They pulled back, but never out of Palestinian territory. How sweet of them to give a little back.
There is more than one side to this issue. Until people start seeing that there will be no peace.
<strong>
A Mahatma Gandhi? An MLK? What? I really can't believe you said that Scott!. but I guess you did. Give me a day/week to recover...
:eek: :eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>
Recover from what? Where are the Muslim/Arab peace protesters? There aren't any as far as I can tell.
<strong>Act on what? You can't arrest suicide bombers, they're already dead.
Arafat doesn't have the power to shut down the jihad movement, why hold him responsible for that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
So why are we even talking about a Palestinian state? If they can't or won't police themselves why should Israel trust them?
[quote]<strong>Times change, and so do attitudes. Israel is not going away and only the hardest of the hardliners still think Israel will be pushed into the sea.
The gripe now amoung the young Muslims (which makes up the terrorist movement) is ... NOT Israel's right to exist. It's a bully pulpit that is obsolete.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Where have you been? That's nonsense and you should know better.