I would guess that MS has the funds, and considers this an experiment in it's own right. More of a 'what if' scenario for them. MS has more money than they know what to do with. There is always the possibility that this could drum up business, or change the 'cheap' image that MS has, which may be the intended result all along. This may be less about making sales, and more about changing perception of MS itself.
Here's a question: Do Microsoft's own people actually realize what nightmare stories are going to come out of their Guru Bars?
You come in with a problem and if you're lucky you get 18 different answers, a handful of complex solutions and 4 levels of finger-pointing. More likely the Guru just shrugs and chalks it up to some software conflict between something like a system-hijacking printer software suite and aggressive AV software.
"Could be the printer software. Could be adobe. Could be McAffee. Could be the Yahoo toolbar in IE. Could be ..." -- "It's not Windows, you'll have to call Dell. It's not Dell, you'll have to call Microsoft about the device drivers. It's not Microsoft's drivers, you'll have to contact the hardware vendor for new drivers..." -- "Click start->run, type msconfig ... or start->control panel->administrative tools->services ... or start->run, regedit ... "
I mean, there's no possible way to answer 90% of Windows questions without the particular machine in front of you. And there's no way to promise any sort of resolution even if someone did bring the particular machine in. (See: all the completely satisfied Geek Squad customers...)
There are too many ways to deeply affect a Windows install (even without getting into the realm of viruses and malware) and no-one to step forward and take responsibility for being the vendor who screwed it up. Microsoft is just setting up some well-meaning geeks to be crucified on a daily basis, which at best will just result in burn-out and high turn-over and more likely lead to jaded, snippy, combative and dismissive 'Gurus'.
How far removed from Microsoft's own products do these people have to be to greenlight this concept?
Here's a question: Do Microsoft's own people actually realize what nightmare stories are going to come out of their Guru Bars?
You come in with a problem and if you're lucky you get 18 different answers, a handful of complex solutions and 4 levels of finger-pointing. More likely the Guru just shrugs and chalks it up to some software conflict between something like a system-hijacking printer software suite and aggressive AV software.
"Could be the printer software. Could be adobe. Could be McAffee. Could be the Yahoo toolbar in IE. Could be ..." -- "It's not Windows, you'll have to call Dell. It's not Dell, you'll have to call Microsoft about the device drivers. It's not Microsoft's drivers, you'll have to contact the hardware vendor for new drivers..." -- "Click start->run, type msconfig ... or start->control panel->administrative tools->services ... or start->run, regedit ... "
I mean, there's no possible way to answer 90% of Windows questions without the particular machine in front of you. And there's no way to promise any sort of resolution even if someone did bring the particular machine in. (See: all the completely satisfied Geek Squad customers...)
There are too many ways to deeply affect a Windows install (even without getting into the realm of viruses and malware) and no-one to step forward and take responsibility for being the vendor who screwed it up. Microsoft is just setting up some well-meaning geeks to be crucified on a daily basis, which at best will just result in burn-out and high turn-over and more likely lead to jaded, snippy, combative and dismissive 'Gurus'.
How far removed from Microsoft's own products do these people have to be to greenlight this concept?
You seem to be implying that support for Windows isn't technically viable, which is a bit of an exaggeration. IT shops around the world support Windows on a variety of hardware platforms. Most end user problems can be chalked up to basic user error, configuration/conflict issues, or hardware failures. User errors and hardware failures are often the easiest to troubleshoot. It's the weird ones that are a pain in the arse. Windows is definitely NOT error free, but it is well established and not all that difficult to troubleshoot. I'm sure these folks will also have a direct line to the MS support structure, which will give them an escalation path should they come across something they can't solve. I would imagine many problems can be solved if you simply throw a lot of money at them.
Mind you I'm a Mac user at home, but I have to support the Windows server and client at work.
Wow, Apple has really got under Microsoft's skin. With the laptop ads and opening retail stores and now this? Even Microsoft thinks Apple's market share is going to increase significantly and they are scared.
The article doesn't even say what the supposed management problem is, it's way premature to take sides on that, if it's even appropriate to take sides. Given the story about employee satisfaction, it's pretty safe to say that if there is a problem, it's not endemic to the entire chain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshbj
The Guru Bar. That's innovation.
I think that evokes images of the comic strip guru, sitting on a high mountain, with harried travelers begging for solutions to their computer problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy
Okay, by their laptop hunter ads, they've positioned themselves as the cheap alternative to Macs. Now they're pursuing a retail strategy that shadows Apple's high-end store placement. What gives Microsoft? Are you Walmart or Neiman-Marcus? Ballmer is really just thrashing about with no idea at all where to take the company. Why is Bill Gates and the MS board putting up with this?
I know that Apple stores take in a lot of money, but their non-flagship stores really don't seem that impressive all the time. The one closest to me doesn't seem to have any acoustical treatment at all, it's too noisy and echoey, and the environment feels almost institutional.
You seem to be implying that support for Windows isn't technically viable, which is a bit of an exaggeration. IT shops around the world support Windows on a variety of hardware platforms. Most end user problems can be chalked up to basic user error, configuration/conflict issues, or hardware failures. User errors and hardware failures are often the easiest to troubleshoot. It's the weird ones that are a pain in the arse. Windows is definitely NOT error free, but it is well established and not all that difficult to troubleshoot. I'm sure these folks will also have a direct line to the MS support structure, which will give them an escalation path should they come across something they can't solve. I would imagine many problems can be solved if you simply throw a lot of money at them.
Mind you I'm a Mac user at home, but I have to support the Windows server and client at work.
Yeah the way IT department handle that is by having standard configuration and in some cases disallowing installation of any non approved software. The MS store will not be dealing with that, they will be dealing with the everyday person and all the possible combination of software and hardware and will have no clue where to start since Window really lacks debug tools to help isolate things.
I manage my own mac and the few times I run into a problem I can quickly isolate the problem or a quick search of the net I find a solution to the exact issue and fix it.
I have tried the same on a PC, and doing a search of the net finds very similar problems but the solutions usually do not work since the so specific to someone exact configuration that it does not help.
I happen to use a PC at work, and we have pretty strict policies on what you can do with the PC. I can tell you I have had a number issues where Window just started doing odd things without me doing anything or installing any new software. Call IT support and spend hours with them looking and trying various things, turnoff stuff, uninstalling things with no resolution. Only after spending hours on it they throw up their hands and say the drive will have to be re-image. Re-image always fixes the problem, but it is usually a 2 day affair to get it done.
I can tell you that in 25yrs of owning Mac I never once had to re-install the OS to resolve a problem. I have been always able to isolate the problem to an offending file or program and buy removing it and turn it off the problem went a way. I can not say the same for PC.
I'm always amazed by how mistreated unskilled workers in retail stores make themselves out to be. And like this walkout is going to make Apple take notice of your amazing capabilities. As if they can't find somebody else to slide a credit card through a machine at the ipod stand. The only thing this walkout would prove is the ignorance of youth. Don't kid yourself. There is a long line of people who'd be willing to replace you. And an even longer line at the unemployment office.
Yes, but it also sounded like the matter was looked into by Apple's human resource department and they didn't do anything. However, we don't know anything about this. HR actions can take time to investigate and act on, if necessary. If the entire staff is walking about, there's probably something to the complaints. But this could also just be one employee leaking this news and perhaps he/she is the only one unhappy with the situation. Planning a walkout for two weeks from now seems a bit odd. Why wait?
It is possible that whatever they are complaining about is something that is 100% legal by federal law and state law they just don't like it. Like perhaps some of the staff were tardy for work on time too many and got fired or someone called out one time too many and was fired. Or they don't like the availability rules (I worked at one place where you have to have at least two completely open days and one of them had to be Saturday or Sunday just for part time, for full time it was 3 open days) or maybe they don't get health insurance or they don't have to be paid time and a half for working on major holidays. any one of which might be legal just not nice.
as for the two weeks thing, perhaps they decided to give them some time to fix the problem or at least respond showing they really are trying to.
however, this 'leak' could hurt them in the end because in some states you are required to keep things on the QT during investigations (tip off the other side and they could tweak the evidence for example)
I'm always amazed by how mistreated unskilled workers in retail stores make themselves out to be. And like this walkout is going to make Apple take notice of your amazing capabilities. As if they can't find somebody else to slide a credit card through a machine at the ipod stand. The only thing this walkout would prove is the ignorance of youth. Don't kid yourself. There is a long line of people who'd be willing to replace you. And an even longer line at the unemployment office.
I go hot and cold on Apple retail staff. It's a demanding job, especially the Genius Bar. But they can be quite snarky. And they're sometimes deceptive.
But real problems are acknowledged and they replaced a MBP for me that was out of warranty after their repair was faulty.
Obviously Apple did their homework before opening the stores. Microsoft wants to copy the homework. Not sure that will work.
Again MS think they will be successful by hiring these people. Just because these people can manage a store does not mean they will make MS store successful. It is not like hiring someone who works at wal-mart and have them work at k-mart and sell the same product.
Apple has a great set of product and as long as you understand the underlying principles behind the product you will be successful since the product just work. However, just because they can sell and manages does not mean that sell "junk" to anyone.
It is possible that whatever they are complaining about is something that is 100% legal by federal law and state law they just don't like it. Like perhaps some of the staff were tardy for work on time too many and got fired or someone called out one time too many and was fired. Or they don't like the availability rules (I worked at one place where you have to have at least two completely open days and one of them had to be Saturday or Sunday just for part time, for full time it was 3 open days) or maybe they don't get health insurance or they don't have to be paid time and a half for working on major holidays. any one of which might be legal just not nice.
as for the two weeks thing, perhaps they decided to give them some time to fix the problem or at least respond showing they really are trying to.
however, this 'leak' could hurt them in the end because in some states you are required to keep things on the QT during investigations (tip off the other side and they could tweak the evidence for example)
Tweak could hurt them in the way they decide to do something like cut back their hours and staff from other stores in the area? I'd be surprised if their state isn't a right to work state. So Apple could let them go because they didn't liek the way the wind blew.
I would guess that MS has the funds, and considers this an experiment in it's own right. More of a 'what if' scenario for them. MS has more money than they know what to do with. There is always the possibility that this could drum up business, or change the 'cheap' image that MS has, which may be the intended result all along. This may be less about making sales, and more about changing perception of MS itself.
hiring apple-savvy staff will not help their cheap reputation
how much can it help, really? besides putting apple stores through trouble to restaff?
Huh. That sounds a pretty good bit like a manager at the Christiana Store. He was SO DETERMINED to "Catch me stealing" from "his store." At one point, whoever actually WAS stealing from the store got so brazen that they had to start checking our bags before we could leave, after our shifts were up. But this manager wouldn't do it in the privacy of the back of the store for me. He insisted that my bookbag, my coat, and my pockets all be searched out in Front of House, where there'd be witnesses.
Yeah. I finally quit when he got mad and told a customer "This guy is stealing sh*t and I'm going to prove it", after I refused to let him pat me down. Sick freak.
I'm always amazed by how mistreated unskilled workers in retail stores make themselves out to be. And like this walkout is going to make Apple take notice of your amazing capabilities. As if they can't find somebody else to slide a credit card through a machine at the ipod stand. The only thing this walkout would prove is the ignorance of youth. Don't kid yourself. There is a long line of people who'd be willing to replace you. And an even longer line at the unemployment office.
I have to agree, they are working there because they want to or they can not necessarily do anything else. Then they look around and see people who got a nice 9 to 5 job, nights and weekend off and get paid really well and they say I want that too at this job which they took and signed up to do. Face it they are working retail, they have no control over the schedule they assign you to the hours they want them there and their pay is based on how much they sell in some regards. If they can not moving product out the door then they will be the one moving out the door.
Face it any consumer facing job sucks, you do not get paid well and your treated badly and are expected not to think and just do and performance is very easy to measure, how much did you sell today. They do not care if you help someone answered their question or solved their problem unless the consumer paid money for those efforts.
Or, maybe it is the lack of work hours to make what they are paid worth their time to even show up for work?
Or, maybe Apple should get away from these dumb ass terms like "Apple Specialist"! Call them the sales clerks and cashiers they really are. If someone is a "Specialist" you'd think they'd be paid more, like how doctors don't become general practitioners, but rather pick an area in the medical field and become a "Specialist" because that is where the money is!
And of course no one here would scream bloody murder if their compensation package was reviewed and found to be too sufficient and therefore, a cut in pay and benefits is warranted! Surely that person would never equate their service to the company and the money they made for the company as a legit excuse to warrant more compensation.
Must suck to be a smug jerk who resents anyone wanting decent working conditions and fair pay.
FWIW, remember that Alan Greenspan worked for years to make sure that the economy ensured high unemployment in order to keep labor in oversupply, wages down (and corporate profits up.)
I'm sure you have no problem with leeching executives pulling in billion dollar compensation tho'. They must really deserve it as opposed to grunts who work for a living.
Sleazy yes, but a valid business tactic. They are trying to figure out what makes the Apple Store tick and to gain some Apple talent. Unfortunately, I see this as trying to plug an A/C device into a D/C power source. They come from two different cultures. The shock may kill them
I find this whole MS store an odd curiosity. MS itself doesn't make PC's. They sell software, and the Zune. That's it. ...
I live less than 1 mile from the Alderwood Mall Apple store in question. Ive been in numerous times and have always received excellent service. They obviously are doing a great job keeping this under wraps. I have seen no plans for a MS store in the vicinity. We are about 20 minutes from MS main campus in Redmond. I actually know a few MS employess who have iphones. Not sure what this is all about.
Comments
WOW...that's a pretty sleazy business practice by MS.
How so? Like when Apple hired away that Papermaster guy from IBM?
You come in with a problem and if you're lucky you get 18 different answers, a handful of complex solutions and 4 levels of finger-pointing. More likely the Guru just shrugs and chalks it up to some software conflict between something like a system-hijacking printer software suite and aggressive AV software.
"Could be the printer software. Could be adobe. Could be McAffee. Could be the Yahoo toolbar in IE. Could be ..." -- "It's not Windows, you'll have to call Dell. It's not Dell, you'll have to call Microsoft about the device drivers. It's not Microsoft's drivers, you'll have to contact the hardware vendor for new drivers..." -- "Click start->run, type msconfig ... or start->control panel->administrative tools->services ... or start->run, regedit ... "
I mean, there's no possible way to answer 90% of Windows questions without the particular machine in front of you. And there's no way to promise any sort of resolution even if someone did bring the particular machine in. (See: all the completely satisfied Geek Squad customers...)
There are too many ways to deeply affect a Windows install (even without getting into the realm of viruses and malware) and no-one to step forward and take responsibility for being the vendor who screwed it up. Microsoft is just setting up some well-meaning geeks to be crucified on a daily basis, which at best will just result in burn-out and high turn-over and more likely lead to jaded, snippy, combative and dismissive 'Gurus'.
How far removed from Microsoft's own products do these people have to be to greenlight this concept?
Here's a question: Do Microsoft's own people actually realize what nightmare stories are going to come out of their Guru Bars?
You come in with a problem and if you're lucky you get 18 different answers, a handful of complex solutions and 4 levels of finger-pointing. More likely the Guru just shrugs and chalks it up to some software conflict between something like a system-hijacking printer software suite and aggressive AV software.
"Could be the printer software. Could be adobe. Could be McAffee. Could be the Yahoo toolbar in IE. Could be ..." -- "It's not Windows, you'll have to call Dell. It's not Dell, you'll have to call Microsoft about the device drivers. It's not Microsoft's drivers, you'll have to contact the hardware vendor for new drivers..." -- "Click start->run, type msconfig ... or start->control panel->administrative tools->services ... or start->run, regedit ... "
I mean, there's no possible way to answer 90% of Windows questions without the particular machine in front of you. And there's no way to promise any sort of resolution even if someone did bring the particular machine in. (See: all the completely satisfied Geek Squad customers...)
There are too many ways to deeply affect a Windows install (even without getting into the realm of viruses and malware) and no-one to step forward and take responsibility for being the vendor who screwed it up. Microsoft is just setting up some well-meaning geeks to be crucified on a daily basis, which at best will just result in burn-out and high turn-over and more likely lead to jaded, snippy, combative and dismissive 'Gurus'.
How far removed from Microsoft's own products do these people have to be to greenlight this concept?
You seem to be implying that support for Windows isn't technically viable, which is a bit of an exaggeration. IT shops around the world support Windows on a variety of hardware platforms. Most end user problems can be chalked up to basic user error, configuration/conflict issues, or hardware failures. User errors and hardware failures are often the easiest to troubleshoot. It's the weird ones that are a pain in the arse. Windows is definitely NOT error free, but it is well established and not all that difficult to troubleshoot. I'm sure these folks will also have a direct line to the MS support structure, which will give them an escalation path should they come across something they can't solve. I would imagine many problems can be solved if you simply throw a lot of money at them.
Mind you I'm a Mac user at home, but I have to support the Windows server and client at work.
The Guru Bar. That's innovation.
I think that evokes images of the comic strip guru, sitting on a high mountain, with harried travelers begging for solutions to their computer problems.
Okay, by their laptop hunter ads, they've positioned themselves as the cheap alternative to Macs. Now they're pursuing a retail strategy that shadows Apple's high-end store placement. What gives Microsoft? Are you Walmart or Neiman-Marcus? Ballmer is really just thrashing about with no idea at all where to take the company. Why is Bill Gates and the MS board putting up with this?
I know that Apple stores take in a lot of money, but their non-flagship stores really don't seem that impressive all the time. The one closest to me doesn't seem to have any acoustical treatment at all, it's too noisy and echoey, and the environment feels almost institutional.
You seem to be implying that support for Windows isn't technically viable, which is a bit of an exaggeration. IT shops around the world support Windows on a variety of hardware platforms. Most end user problems can be chalked up to basic user error, configuration/conflict issues, or hardware failures. User errors and hardware failures are often the easiest to troubleshoot. It's the weird ones that are a pain in the arse. Windows is definitely NOT error free, but it is well established and not all that difficult to troubleshoot. I'm sure these folks will also have a direct line to the MS support structure, which will give them an escalation path should they come across something they can't solve. I would imagine many problems can be solved if you simply throw a lot of money at them.
Mind you I'm a Mac user at home, but I have to support the Windows server and client at work.
Yeah the way IT department handle that is by having standard configuration and in some cases disallowing installation of any non approved software. The MS store will not be dealing with that, they will be dealing with the everyday person and all the possible combination of software and hardware and will have no clue where to start since Window really lacks debug tools to help isolate things.
I manage my own mac and the few times I run into a problem I can quickly isolate the problem or a quick search of the net I find a solution to the exact issue and fix it.
I have tried the same on a PC, and doing a search of the net finds very similar problems but the solutions usually do not work since the so specific to someone exact configuration that it does not help.
I happen to use a PC at work, and we have pretty strict policies on what you can do with the PC. I can tell you I have had a number issues where Window just started doing odd things without me doing anything or installing any new software. Call IT support and spend hours with them looking and trying various things, turnoff stuff, uninstalling things with no resolution. Only after spending hours on it they throw up their hands and say the drive will have to be re-image. Re-image always fixes the problem, but it is usually a 2 day affair to get it done.
I can tell you that in 25yrs of owning Mac I never once had to re-install the OS to resolve a problem. I have been always able to isolate the problem to an offending file or program and buy removing it and turn it off the problem went a way. I can not say the same for PC.
Yes, but it also sounded like the matter was looked into by Apple's human resource department and they didn't do anything. However, we don't know anything about this. HR actions can take time to investigate and act on, if necessary. If the entire staff is walking about, there's probably something to the complaints. But this could also just be one employee leaking this news and perhaps he/she is the only one unhappy with the situation. Planning a walkout for two weeks from now seems a bit odd. Why wait?
It is possible that whatever they are complaining about is something that is 100% legal by federal law and state law they just don't like it. Like perhaps some of the staff were tardy for work on time too many and got fired or someone called out one time too many and was fired. Or they don't like the availability rules (I worked at one place where you have to have at least two completely open days and one of them had to be Saturday or Sunday just for part time, for full time it was 3 open days) or maybe they don't get health insurance or they don't have to be paid time and a half for working on major holidays. any one of which might be legal just not nice.
as for the two weeks thing, perhaps they decided to give them some time to fix the problem or at least respond showing they really are trying to.
however, this 'leak' could hurt them in the end because in some states you are required to keep things on the QT during investigations (tip off the other side and they could tweak the evidence for example)
I'm always amazed by how mistreated unskilled workers in retail stores make themselves out to be. And like this walkout is going to make Apple take notice of your amazing capabilities. As if they can't find somebody else to slide a credit card through a machine at the ipod stand. The only thing this walkout would prove is the ignorance of youth. Don't kid yourself. There is a long line of people who'd be willing to replace you. And an even longer line at the unemployment office.
I go hot and cold on Apple retail staff. It's a demanding job, especially the Genius Bar. But they can be quite snarky. And they're sometimes deceptive.
But real problems are acknowledged and they replaced a MBP for me that was out of warranty after their repair was faulty.
Obviously Apple did their homework before opening the stores. Microsoft wants to copy the homework. Not sure that will work.
Apple has a great set of product and as long as you understand the underlying principles behind the product you will be successful since the product just work. However, just because they can sell and manages does not mean that sell "junk" to anyone.
It is possible that whatever they are complaining about is something that is 100% legal by federal law and state law they just don't like it. Like perhaps some of the staff were tardy for work on time too many and got fired or someone called out one time too many and was fired. Or they don't like the availability rules (I worked at one place where you have to have at least two completely open days and one of them had to be Saturday or Sunday just for part time, for full time it was 3 open days) or maybe they don't get health insurance or they don't have to be paid time and a half for working on major holidays. any one of which might be legal just not nice.
as for the two weeks thing, perhaps they decided to give them some time to fix the problem or at least respond showing they really are trying to.
however, this 'leak' could hurt them in the end because in some states you are required to keep things on the QT during investigations (tip off the other side and they could tweak the evidence for example)
Tweak could hurt them in the way they decide to do something like cut back their hours and staff from other stores in the area? I'd be surprised if their state isn't a right to work state. So Apple could let them go because they didn't liek the way the wind blew.
I would guess that MS has the funds, and considers this an experiment in it's own right. More of a 'what if' scenario for them. MS has more money than they know what to do with. There is always the possibility that this could drum up business, or change the 'cheap' image that MS has, which may be the intended result all along. This may be less about making sales, and more about changing perception of MS itself.
hiring apple-savvy staff will not help their cheap reputation
how much can it help, really? besides putting apple stores through trouble to restaff?
Yeah. I finally quit when he got mad and told a customer "This guy is stealing sh*t and I'm going to prove it", after I refused to let him pat me down. Sick freak.
I'm always amazed by how mistreated unskilled workers in retail stores make themselves out to be. And like this walkout is going to make Apple take notice of your amazing capabilities. As if they can't find somebody else to slide a credit card through a machine at the ipod stand. The only thing this walkout would prove is the ignorance of youth. Don't kid yourself. There is a long line of people who'd be willing to replace you. And an even longer line at the unemployment office.
I have to agree, they are working there because they want to or they can not necessarily do anything else. Then they look around and see people who got a nice 9 to 5 job, nights and weekend off and get paid really well and they say I want that too at this job which they took and signed up to do. Face it they are working retail, they have no control over the schedule they assign you to the hours they want them there and their pay is based on how much they sell in some regards. If they can not moving product out the door then they will be the one moving out the door.
Face it any consumer facing job sucks, you do not get paid well and your treated badly and are expected not to think and just do and performance is very easy to measure, how much did you sell today. They do not care if you help someone answered their question or solved their problem unless the consumer paid money for those efforts.
Or, maybe it is the lack of work hours to make what they are paid worth their time to even show up for work?
Or, maybe Apple should get away from these dumb ass terms like "Apple Specialist"! Call them the sales clerks and cashiers they really are. If someone is a "Specialist" you'd think they'd be paid more, like how doctors don't become general practitioners, but rather pick an area in the medical field and become a "Specialist" because that is where the money is!
And of course no one here would scream bloody murder if their compensation package was reviewed and found to be too sufficient and therefore, a cut in pay and benefits is warranted! Surely that person would never equate their service to the company and the money they made for the company as a legit excuse to warrant more compensation.
Must suck to be a smug jerk who resents anyone wanting decent working conditions and fair pay.
FWIW, remember that Alan Greenspan worked for years to make sure that the economy ensured high unemployment in order to keep labor in oversupply, wages down (and corporate profits up.)
I'm sure you have no problem with leeching executives pulling in billion dollar compensation tho'. They must really deserve it as opposed to grunts who work for a living.
Guru Bars warning may contain nuts.
Sleazy yes, but a valid business tactic. They are trying to figure out what makes the Apple Store tick and to gain some Apple talent. Unfortunately, I see this as trying to plug an A/C device into a D/C power source. They come from two different cultures. The shock may kill them
I find this whole MS store an odd curiosity. MS itself doesn't make PC's. They sell software, and the Zune. That's it. ...
hmm... xbox 360
Just a hop, skip and a jump from Redmond!
Hmmmmm.........