This is where an Apple tablet would make this even more interesting, just another example of Apple testing the waters ahead of a new product offering
Hmm, I think the LP was designed more with the living room experience in mind.
There was some mention of how people listen to music in an isolated personal world these days, rather than sitting around as a group and taking the time to appreciate the album experience.
That sounds to me like an HDTV scenario, for which Apple TV is better suited.
Plus the tablet suffers from the eternal issue of how to hold it up. When I'm kicking back enjoying a new album, I don't want to be distracted by 'gorilla-thumb' (not to mention 'corner-groin', which I wasn't going to mention), that I discovered while attempting to use a tablet for casual browsing. There may well be a use for tablets, but I don't think this is its killer app.
Something must have gone very wrong because the format has basically been adopted by ZERO labels. 10 "LP's" is not a very impressive launch this far in. If Apple wanted the idea to flop, a $10,000 fee should do the trick.
It's too bad, since I love the idea and I thought it would be this cool new aspect of the store and would really take off. I like all the stuff you get with CD's (art work, credits, lyrics etc.)
I don’t think that is what is holding it back at this point. It’s a new concept and there is a lot of uncharted ground here. Apple was slow to get into the digital video market, too. Remember the low resolution (320x240 ?) initial launch, and then the very weak Disney TV show launch. Now it’s quite popular for digital sales and even Netflix CEO has stated that DVD rentals will outweigh digital streaming within 2 years.
Quote:
It's people like me who are confirming recent comments by Netflix CEO Reed Hastings, who says that streaming will be bigger than DVDs at Netflix in under two years. Although the company says that all formats are growing in usage, the tremendous growth of streaming does suggest that Blu-ray will never become the huge cash cow that studio backers hoped to milk for decades.
I think the iTunes LP will take off and I think that it will be used for interactive Movies and TV Show seasons so that consumers can finally get the same experience that is still holding some to optical media for sales or rental.
I think the iTunes LP will take off and I think that it will be used for interactive Movies and TV Show seasons so that consumers can finally get the same experience that is still holding some to optical media for sales or rental.
As long as optical media provides both a superior listening and viewing experience via its sampling rates or line resolution, they will never go away- digital LP liner notes or whatever.
As long as optical media provides both a superior listening and viewing experience via its sampling rates or line resolution, they will never go away- digital LP liner notes or whatever.
1) No one said that it would ?go away? completely, but with your absolutionist mindset I understand how you read it that way.
2) Despite iTunes music not being better than CDs, not being transferable and not having liner notes it still managed to become the most popular music store in the world. Funny how convenience plays a role in society. Perhaps you shouldn?t discount Netflix CEO claims that their streaming videos are increasing in popularity.
I do like Apple pushing digital downloads into new areas with their LP concept, but I do worry about obsolescence for this kind of product. Compared with printed information, digital content has a much, much shorter lifespan... but then, as an investor I don't mind the additional revenue stream. I personally can't see the value in something I can't physically resell for it's collectibility.
Actually that's the part I like the most. No value but to the owner ONLY. That's what angry me the most when I purchased Xbox 360 limited Edition of their titles but a few months they ONLY worth but 10% of the original price. I decided go digital download all the way on everything. Trust me its better like this.
Or just use your laptop...? Don't think a tablet will be at the right price-point unfortunately. I see it going the route of the Air. Very niche product.
You don't think the Apple tablet will be the right price point for what exactly? a tablet? or for a comparable laptop? How can you determine the value without having any idea what it can do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirstyrobot
The "album" is a broken business model for a reason. Most multi-song releases just aren't worth paying for as a package.
you must listen to some terrible artists if they aren't worth a whole album. You should really spread out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manfrommars
Something must have gone very wrong because the format has basically been adopted by ZERO labels.
LP's launched about a month ago as a tip of the hat to the future, trust me we already have clients chomping at the bit. You must not have been around for the early ITS movie downloads; things have changed allot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
You might want to lay off the herb pipe.
LOL, I thought that would have been for me? Naman is obviously a very excited kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT
Plus the tablet suffers from the eternal issue of how to hold it up.
It must be impossible for you to read anything other than a paperback then?
My final thought F____'n rad; we're moving ahead with some new ideas and this restores my faith in getting them done quickly and inexpensive enough to be profitable. Regarding digital only, yeah resell sucks but have you ever tried to resell a dvd or VHS let alone a Merk with 6,000 miles on it. resell sucks for everything. We're a world of consumers and every corporate strategy relies upon it.
I REALLY love music. I'm 40, so I don't have the appetite for consumption that I did when I was a teen, but it's one of the bigger distractions that been a part of my life since I was a kid (like some folks follow sports.)
I still love CDs for their sound quality and durability, but I generally feel guilty about the environmental impact - used CDs are better for the planet than new. I enjoy Itunes and get a lot of use out of my Ipod, though mostly for the great podcasts out there. I have about 1,500 CDs in my life and I would love to go digital, but here's the problem:
1) Sound quality - CDs provide far more "bandwidth" for the money than downloads.
2) Durability - AAC, FLAC, MP3 - no matter the format or compression issues, CDs are remarkably reliable. My copy of U2's "War," which I purchased in 1985, still sounds and looks great. I've had four computers since then and I've lost/abandoned numerous software and harddrives - I can't imagine losing a hard drive with 1,500 albums (at $9.99) each on it.
3) Ownership - Maybe I'm showing my age, but I like to hold the disc in my hand and know that the music is somehow "mine." I'm not proud of that, but music, like art, demands to be "claimed" by those who love it. Subscription services and music on demand appeal to me, but so do libraries. I check a lot of books out at the local library, but I still buy books and keep them.
4) Packaging/Marketing - When I was a teen, the packaging was mesmerizing for some reason. Not sure why, but I loved to scrutinize my LPs (especially gatefolds) and later the CD booklets - especially with boxed sets.
What would it take me to become a major consumer of online music - like Itunes?
I've checked out the Itunes LPs and I'm impressed. If Apple (and music labels) could make this a standard, then I would be more curious. If Apple can bring out a tablet with WIFI and 9" screen, then I would start to get excited. If Apple could provide zipped AIFF or FLAC files at the same price as AAC files on ITunes, I would be motivated. And, finally, if Apple could guarantee online backups (for no additional cost) of all purchased Itunes content, I would be converted.
I know it's a lot to ask, but with CDs I already get the artwork, the highest sound quality, a backup and durability for a very low cost. Oh, and I don't need a computer to look at the artwork or listen to the music - or even browse my collection. That's a big savings right there.
Apple isn't a music company, but they've shown that they love music and that they share a lot of my interests as a consumer. I'll be watching for the tablet this year, rooting for the ITunes LP format, and maybe increasing my ITunes purchases in 2011.
Or just use your laptop...? Don't think a tablet will be at the right price-point unfortunately. I see it going the route of the Air. Very niche product.
I have high hopes that Apple has a very attractive price point in mind for the tablet. It might even be lower than the large Kindle. Or possibly slightly higher than the top end Touch as it is priced currently. The tablet, along with the continual slide in component prices, would allow a price drop on Touch iPods. IPod Touch then becomes the low cost leader into the world of tablets.
The problem is rather simple in my mind, as a play on a music player a base model priced at more than $500 will be a non starter. Infact they need to go much lower than that if the primary market will be the iPod user.
Impossible you say? Not really, remember these would be running highly tailored SoC with very limited I/O. The big costs would be flash and the screen. The problem here is that the screen could cost anything depending on the tech implemented, anything from $50 to $250 wholesale.
So let's say Apple can sell you a base model tablet for $400 even with 64GB of flash. How many would go for it? The device would have a Cortex dual core processor with OpenCL compatible GPUs. Performance would be nice and somewhat competitive with a netbook. Personally I see lots of sales.
1) No one said that it would “go away” completely, but with your absolutionist mindset I understand how you read it that way.
You statement of
Quote:
I think the iTunes LP will take off and I think that it will be used for interactive Movies and TV Show seasons so that consumers can finally get the same experience that is still holding some to optical media for sales or rental.
sure as hell implies that you think it will by adding interactivity to it
If you had a point you failed once again to make it. Having one exist doesn't mean the other will stop existing.
On the other hand some people are not holding out simply because it doesn't exist as you seem to know in all your wiseness. If we can't touch it, we don't want it no matter what you add digitally to it.
Who wants this? The labels? the artists? the consumers? Were people clamoring for this? I doubt it.
As someone else stated Apple should have provided pdf's of original artwork from the get go. This is too much$, too little, too late IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2
To answer your question, the labels wanted it. They are/were (not sure on the status) actually working on their own version of this. Apple should have done more from the beginning, but I wouldn't make any predictions on the success or failure of this product just yet.
I suspect a whole lot of artists want this as well. It seems to me techstud, that you want to have this both ways. You criticize Apple for this format, with a title that says ?It's the music, stupid? and then complain that they should have been providing what amounts to a half-measure from the beginning. But if no one wants this new format, who wanted the pdf? And why wouldn't THAT have been a case of ?too little, too early?? I haven't bought anything in this format yet, but I think it's quite interesting in its potential.
The "album" is a broken business model for a reason. Most multi-song releases just aren't worth paying for as a package.
There is still more music sold on physical CDs than by digital download. That's NEW CDs. If you add in the used market (Amazon Marketplace sellers, etc.), there is A LOT more music still sold on physical CDs.
Everybody's crying about music sales being down, but nobody even mentions the healthy market in used CDs - that market has never been quantified, and of course it means nothing in profit to the record labels (or the artists) profits.
I still buy CDs (lots of them, mostly new ones), and I like having the physical CD, but it's not indispensable to me. If downloads were lossless, I'd buy more of them, but I wouldn't care about the LP extras.
Hey, spliff monkey, ya i'm probably pretty excited about the tablet (though I doubt i'll be able to buy it anytime soon, I think I'll definitely buy their second release)
And hey Dave, it CANNOT be priced at $400! seriously.
I don't think you want this tablet with an AT&T contract. (don't even think verizon. They use a very weird cdma frequency that no1 else uses, and apple doesn't even want to make a cdma iphone not gonna happen)
The Iphone is priced at nearly $500 without contract. A little more actually. And then AT&T sells it for 600 and makes more profit!
SO Obviously this is going to cost more. At least 700.
The raw horsepower won't be at-par with a netbook. This will most definitely run on an ARM architecture chip and that's slower that atom. BUT the experience will be as snappy or shall I say WAY less sucky than a netbook. Most netbooks run windows that are meant to be run on proper computers. So even XP, kinda slows it down a lot. Apple will make the right kind of software, and make sure its usually snappy. Hell they didn't even put multi-tasking on the iphone for precisely that reason. They want good battery life and they want it to stay fast. Apple likes to do less but do it well. That's why iphone didn't have so many features at first.
Another theory. They're gonna drop the prices on the white macbook. to like 700-800 dollars, (new redesign) and make the tablet a $1000 thing. Though I'm not sure how many people will buy it in that case. But I think of it as high probability right now.
WHy?
Iphone Price: at least $500
+bigger screen
+better specs
+support for stylus as well as fingers. (Wacom style touch)
Another theory. They're gonna drop the prices on the white macbook. to like 700-800 dollars, (new redesign) and make the tablet a $1000 thing. Though I'm not sure how many people will buy it in that case. But I think of it as high probability right now.
I don't think that they would price the tablet higher than the low end macbook. I do agree that its unsubsidized price will be above $400. A quick glance at the Archos offerings would confirm that.
I'm pretty excited about the tablet, the resolution on them would have to be pretty big to fit the full LP on the screen in one go.
I agree that anyone whining that the iTunes LP format is closed is pretty silly, these are totally open and available for anyone to edit and create their own if they know how to make websites.
I had one made for my band back in September, its pretty much impossible to talk to Apple unless your big even as an indieband unfortunately, in the mean time you just have to pursuade people to go and grab it form your site: http://brutaltechnopunk.com
I personally can't see the value in something I can't physically resell for it's collectibility.
I can understand that very real concern, however, I think I might be more representative of iTunes present customer base. The fact is, for me at least, because of digital music taking up so much less space and being so portable, via iPod, and being cheaper, due to only buying tracks I want, I own almost 12,000 songs. If we had to go back to non digital music, that would never be the case for me. Im guessing that might be the case for a lot of people.
Comments
This is where an Apple tablet would make this even more interesting, just another example of Apple testing the waters ahead of a new product offering
Hmm, I think the LP was designed more with the living room experience in mind.
There was some mention of how people listen to music in an isolated personal world these days, rather than sitting around as a group and taking the time to appreciate the album experience.
That sounds to me like an HDTV scenario, for which Apple TV is better suited.
Plus the tablet suffers from the eternal issue of how to hold it up. When I'm kicking back enjoying a new album, I don't want to be distracted by 'gorilla-thumb' (not to mention 'corner-groin', which I wasn't going to mention), that I discovered while attempting to use a tablet for casual browsing. There may well be a use for tablets, but I don't think this is its killer app.
Something must have gone very wrong because the format has basically been adopted by ZERO labels. 10 "LP's" is not a very impressive launch this far in. If Apple wanted the idea to flop, a $10,000 fee should do the trick.
It's too bad, since I love the idea and I thought it would be this cool new aspect of the store and would really take off. I like all the stuff you get with CD's (art work, credits, lyrics etc.)
I don’t think that is what is holding it back at this point. It’s a new concept and there is a lot of uncharted ground here. Apple was slow to get into the digital video market, too. Remember the low resolution (320x240 ?) initial launch, and then the very weak Disney TV show launch. Now it’s quite popular for digital sales and even Netflix CEO has stated that DVD rentals will outweigh digital streaming within 2 years.
It's people like me who are confirming recent comments by Netflix CEO Reed Hastings, who says that streaming will be bigger than DVDs at Netflix in under two years. Although the company says that all formats are growing in usage, the tremendous growth of streaming does suggest that Blu-ray will never become the huge cash cow that studio backers hoped to milk for decades.
I think the iTunes LP will take off and I think that it will be used for interactive Movies and TV Show seasons so that consumers can finally get the same experience that is still holding some to optical media for sales or rental.
I think the iTunes LP will take off and I think that it will be used for interactive Movies and TV Show seasons so that consumers can finally get the same experience that is still holding some to optical media for sales or rental.
As long as optical media provides both a superior listening and viewing experience via its sampling rates or line resolution, they will never go away- digital LP liner notes or whatever.
As long as optical media provides both a superior listening and viewing experience via its sampling rates or line resolution, they will never go away- digital LP liner notes or whatever.
1) No one said that it would ?go away? completely, but with your absolutionist mindset I understand how you read it that way.
2) Despite iTunes music not being better than CDs, not being transferable and not having liner notes it still managed to become the most popular music store in the world. Funny how convenience plays a role in society. Perhaps you shouldn?t discount Netflix CEO claims that their streaming videos are increasing in popularity.
So which is it?
1st sentence: What Apple themselves are saying.
2nd sentence: Notice the word reportedly.
I do like Apple pushing digital downloads into new areas with their LP concept, but I do worry about obsolescence for this kind of product. Compared with printed information, digital content has a much, much shorter lifespan... but then, as an investor I don't mind the additional revenue stream. I personally can't see the value in something I can't physically resell for it's collectibility.
Actually that's the part I like the most. No value but to the owner ONLY. That's what angry me the most when I purchased Xbox 360 limited Edition of their titles but a few months they ONLY worth but 10% of the original price. I decided go digital download all the way on everything. Trust me its better like this.
So much for that tempest in a teapot.
So much for the rabid defensiveness from the usual suspects of the incredible value of Apple's (supposed) $10,000 fee.
Or just use your laptop...? Don't think a tablet will be at the right price-point unfortunately. I see it going the route of the Air. Very niche product.
You don't think the Apple tablet will be the right price point for what exactly? a tablet? or for a comparable laptop? How can you determine the value without having any idea what it can do?
The "album" is a broken business model for a reason. Most multi-song releases just aren't worth paying for as a package.
you must listen to some terrible artists if they aren't worth a whole album. You should really spread out.
Something must have gone very wrong because the format has basically been adopted by ZERO labels.
LP's launched about a month ago as a tip of the hat to the future, trust me we already have clients chomping at the bit. You must not have been around for the early ITS movie downloads; things have changed allot.
You might want to lay off the herb pipe.
LOL, I thought that would have been for me?
Plus the tablet suffers from the eternal issue of how to hold it up.
It must be impossible for you to read anything other than a paperback then?
My final thought F____'n rad; we're moving ahead with some new ideas and this restores my faith in getting them done quickly and inexpensive enough to be profitable. Regarding digital only, yeah resell sucks but have you ever tried to resell a dvd or VHS let alone a Merk with 6,000 miles on it. resell sucks for everything. We're a world of consumers and every corporate strategy relies upon it.
I still love CDs for their sound quality and durability, but I generally feel guilty about the environmental impact - used CDs are better for the planet than new. I enjoy Itunes and get a lot of use out of my Ipod, though mostly for the great podcasts out there. I have about 1,500 CDs in my life and I would love to go digital, but here's the problem:
1) Sound quality - CDs provide far more "bandwidth" for the money than downloads.
2) Durability - AAC, FLAC, MP3 - no matter the format or compression issues, CDs are remarkably reliable. My copy of U2's "War," which I purchased in 1985, still sounds and looks great. I've had four computers since then and I've lost/abandoned numerous software and harddrives - I can't imagine losing a hard drive with 1,500 albums (at $9.99) each on it.
3) Ownership - Maybe I'm showing my age, but I like to hold the disc in my hand and know that the music is somehow "mine." I'm not proud of that, but music, like art, demands to be "claimed" by those who love it. Subscription services and music on demand appeal to me, but so do libraries. I check a lot of books out at the local library, but I still buy books and keep them.
4) Packaging/Marketing - When I was a teen, the packaging was mesmerizing for some reason. Not sure why, but I loved to scrutinize my LPs (especially gatefolds) and later the CD booklets - especially with boxed sets.
What would it take me to become a major consumer of online music - like Itunes?
I've checked out the Itunes LPs and I'm impressed. If Apple (and music labels) could make this a standard, then I would be more curious. If Apple can bring out a tablet with WIFI and 9" screen, then I would start to get excited. If Apple could provide zipped AIFF or FLAC files at the same price as AAC files on ITunes, I would be motivated. And, finally, if Apple could guarantee online backups (for no additional cost) of all purchased Itunes content, I would be converted.
I know it's a lot to ask, but with CDs I already get the artwork, the highest sound quality, a backup and durability for a very low cost. Oh, and I don't need a computer to look at the artwork or listen to the music - or even browse my collection. That's a big savings right there.
Apple isn't a music company, but they've shown that they love music and that they share a lot of my interests as a consumer. I'll be watching for the tablet this year, rooting for the ITunes LP format, and maybe increasing my ITunes purchases in 2011.
Or just use your laptop...? Don't think a tablet will be at the right price-point unfortunately. I see it going the route of the Air. Very niche product.
I have high hopes that Apple has a very attractive price point in mind for the tablet. It might even be lower than the large Kindle. Or possibly slightly higher than the top end Touch as it is priced currently. The tablet, along with the continual slide in component prices, would allow a price drop on Touch iPods. IPod Touch then becomes the low cost leader into the world of tablets.
The problem is rather simple in my mind, as a play on a music player a base model priced at more than $500 will be a non starter. Infact they need to go much lower than that if the primary market will be the iPod user.
Impossible you say? Not really, remember these would be running highly tailored SoC with very limited I/O. The big costs would be flash and the screen. The problem here is that the screen could cost anything depending on the tech implemented, anything from $50 to $250 wholesale.
So let's say Apple can sell you a base model tablet for $400 even with 64GB of flash. How many would go for it? The device would have a Cortex dual core processor with OpenCL compatible GPUs. Performance would be nice and somewhat competitive with a netbook. Personally I see lots of sales.
Dave
1) No one said that it would “go away” completely, but with your absolutionist mindset I understand how you read it that way.
You statement of
I think the iTunes LP will take off and I think that it will be used for interactive Movies and TV Show seasons so that consumers can finally get the same experience that is still holding some to optical media for sales or rental.
sure as hell implies that you think it will by adding interactivity to it
You statement of
sure as hell implies that you think it will by adding interactivity to it
If you had a point you failed once again to make it. Having one exist doesn't mean the other will stop existing.
If you had a point you failed once again to make it. Having one exist doesn't mean the other will stop existing.
On the other hand some people are not holding out simply because it doesn't exist as you seem to know in all your wiseness. If we can't touch it, we don't want it no matter what you add digitally to it.
Who wants this? The labels? the artists? the consumers? Were people clamoring for this? I doubt it.
As someone else stated Apple should have provided pdf's of original artwork from the get go. This is too much$, too little, too late IMO.
To answer your question, the labels wanted it. They are/were (not sure on the status) actually working on their own version of this. Apple should have done more from the beginning, but I wouldn't make any predictions on the success or failure of this product just yet.
I suspect a whole lot of artists want this as well. It seems to me techstud, that you want to have this both ways. You criticize Apple for this format, with a title that says ?It's the music, stupid? and then complain that they should have been providing what amounts to a half-measure from the beginning. But if no one wants this new format, who wanted the pdf? And why wouldn't THAT have been a case of ?too little, too early?? I haven't bought anything in this format yet, but I think it's quite interesting in its potential.
The "album" is a broken business model for a reason. Most multi-song releases just aren't worth paying for as a package.
There is still more music sold on physical CDs than by digital download. That's NEW CDs. If you add in the used market (Amazon Marketplace sellers, etc.), there is A LOT more music still sold on physical CDs.
Everybody's crying about music sales being down, but nobody even mentions the healthy market in used CDs - that market has never been quantified, and of course it means nothing in profit to the record labels (or the artists) profits.
I still buy CDs (lots of them, mostly new ones), and I like having the physical CD, but it's not indispensable to me. If downloads were lossless, I'd buy more of them, but I wouldn't care about the LP extras.
And hey Dave, it CANNOT be priced at $400! seriously.
I don't think you want this tablet with an AT&T contract. (don't even think verizon. They use a very weird cdma frequency that no1 else uses, and apple doesn't even want to make a cdma iphone not gonna happen)
The Iphone is priced at nearly $500 without contract. A little more actually. And then AT&T sells it for 600 and makes more profit!
SO Obviously this is going to cost more. At least 700.
The raw horsepower won't be at-par with a netbook. This will most definitely run on an ARM architecture chip and that's slower that atom. BUT the experience will be as snappy or shall I say WAY less sucky than a netbook. Most netbooks run windows that are meant to be run on proper computers. So even XP, kinda slows it down a lot. Apple will make the right kind of software, and make sure its usually snappy. Hell they didn't even put multi-tasking on the iphone for precisely that reason. They want good battery life and they want it to stay fast. Apple likes to do less but do it well. That's why iphone didn't have so many features at first.
Another theory. They're gonna drop the prices on the white macbook. to like 700-800 dollars, (new redesign) and make the tablet a $1000 thing. Though I'm not sure how many people will buy it in that case. But I think of it as high probability right now.
WHy?
Iphone Price: at least $500
+bigger screen
+better specs
+support for stylus as well as fingers. (Wacom style touch)
-Slightly less miniaturization.
= More expensive by at least $300
Stop dreaming about $400 tablet.
Another theory. They're gonna drop the prices on the white macbook. to like 700-800 dollars, (new redesign) and make the tablet a $1000 thing. Though I'm not sure how many people will buy it in that case. But I think of it as high probability right now.
I don't think that they would price the tablet higher than the low end macbook. I do agree that its unsubsidized price will be above $400. A quick glance at the Archos offerings would confirm that.
I agree that anyone whining that the iTunes LP format is closed is pretty silly, these are totally open and available for anyone to edit and create their own if they know how to make websites.
I had one made for my band back in September, its pretty much impossible to talk to Apple unless your big even as an indieband unfortunately, in the mean time you just have to pursuade people to go and grab it form your site: http://brutaltechnopunk.com
I personally can't see the value in something I can't physically resell for it's collectibility.
I can understand that very real concern, however, I think I might be more representative of iTunes present customer base. The fact is, for me at least, because of digital music taking up so much less space and being so portable, via iPod, and being cheaper, due to only buying tracks I want, I own almost 12,000 songs. If we had to go back to non digital music, that would never be the case for me. Im guessing that might be the case for a lot of people.
Who wants this? The labels? the artists? the consumers? Were people clamoring for this? I doubt it.
As someone else stated Apple should have provided pdf's of original artwork from the get go. This is too much$, too little, too late IMO.
I guess only time will answer that question, with sales or no sales data.