Agreed. And the case between Apple and Psystar is not over yet. So in the meantime, it technically is legal to buy from Psystar and expand one's choices accordingly...
Not being resolved doesn’t mean it’s legal. A judge could order Psystar to retrieve those OpenMacs they’ve sold. If you want an OSx86 machine just build one you can more HW choices than Psystar offers, which is far less than Apple, and you can do it for a lot cheaper, too.
Quote:
And I say this as someone would would be thrilled to see a matte screen iMac and other such "choices" come on the scene. But for now, we have to look elsewhere for that.
Just buy a couple of suction cups from iFixit and remove the glossy glass cover. The display is underneath and It looks like a nice matte display under the glass: http://s2.guide-images.ifixit.com/ig...WoWy5FPH.large
Nor is driving 41MPH on a 40MPH road. But I promise I won't ask you if you've ever committed such a heinous crime. I also don't think Blue Boxes were legal back in the 1970's either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
A judge could...
And an earthquake could cause your house to crash down on your head too if you choose to live in quake prone areas of the earth like California state or Japan (both of which have been home to me). Life is a risk, and some prefer to live on the edge. Some of us take the risks boldly, others cower from the risk. Yet, our diversity makes the world go 'round.
Like I said before, don't like all the legal mumbo jumbo talk. It's like many posting here are in law school. Let's focus on the technology for goodness sake. What can I do with OS X or Apple hardware that I didn't think I could do before? I like to ask those questions. Talking about what's legal and what's not is as boring as watching golf matches on TV (precisely why I don't watch such). Let the courts and lawyers worry about whether it's legal. I agree with you that someone contemplating Psystar needs to weight the risks, but some of us may simply not care about the risk. It's fun to give it a try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Just buy a couple of suction cups from iFixit and remove the glossy glass cover.
I can appreciate a good joke. And removing the glass and saying you "enjoy the view" is truly a good joke indeed. But practically speaking, that is not desirable for many. Hence, some people look for other options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
If you want an OSx86 machine just build one
Since you suggested that, I see you and I agree that doing such is not a "crime against humanity." But for others in this forum who are clearly working on their law degree or trying to enter the police academy, I have to say this...
Some have gone the hackintosh route. I myself have not, but I don't feel like acting as a policeman or attorney, seeking with all my might to dissuade others from discovering new ways to use the software and technology they love. In a nutshell, that's what the Psystar case and hackintosh world is all about: creating new options for Mac users.
As a Mac lover since 1984, I first and foremost want Apple to satisfy my needs. But if they refuse, then I say let someone else try to do it. Perhaps the end result will be that the added pressure on Apple will get them to give us more in the end. But for now, we are getting glossy screens, flattened and truncated keyboards, and last year's video cards in October 2009 "new" Mac models. There's a lot to love about Apple products, but a lot to be desired too. Some are satisfied with official Apple hardware, and some go to Psystar. Why should I feel compelled to hate or otherwise act vicious toward my fellow Mac users who go outside the "official" Apple-branded hardware route? We're all in the same boat as far as I'm concerned.
I also don't think Blue Boxes were legal back in the 1970's either.
No of course not, but using one was a federal crime, and users faced that certain risk if caught. That's one of the reasons why blue boxes were strictly hacker projects, not products. So I'm sure I don't get your point here. I'm also beginning to resent the implication that those of us who understand the problems with Psystar's business model, and what harm it can do not only to Apple but to other holders of intellectual property, are simply "playing lawyer." Maybe our main difference is that we comprehend these issues, and understand what's at stake -- and you don't.
No of course not, but using one was a federal crime, and users faced that certain risk if caught. That's one of the reasons why blue boxes were strictly hacker projects, not products. So I'm sure I don't get your point here. I'm also beginning to resent the implication that those of us who understand the problems with Psystar's business model, and what harm it can do not only to Apple but to other holders of intellectual property, are simply "playing lawyer." Maybe our main difference is that we comprehend these issues, and understand what's at stake -- and you don't.
blue boxes were strictly hacker projects, not products. So I'm sure I don't get your point here.
I apologize for apparently having made my words overly complex, Dr., but you answered your own question: "hacker projects" = Hackintosh = stuff sold by Psystar and similar companies.
If one wishes to purchase something to build their own Mac (whether building themselves or getting it prebuilt and pre-setup), you take some level of risk. Some people ignore the risk but lack the ability to build these machines themselves, so they go to the likes of silly Psystar. Others enjoy a challenge so they search the net for how to do it themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss
I'm also beginning to resent...
I too was "resenting" after having read post after post about the legal mumbo jumbo, which ultimately led me to do the exact same thing as you did, "post my feelings on the matter." So we are at different ends of the stick, but both in the same boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss
...what harm it can do not only to Apple but to other holders of intellectual property
Thank you for this. You have expressed very pointedly the difference between our respective opinions. I personally don't think Psystar threatens to undermine Apple. And if they do, then Apple will sue them. Ooops! They already have done that. Well, then I am sure the courts will handle it. Ooops! They courts already are doing that.
So what I have said in my previous posts stands. Let the courts deal with it. And if some in the Mac community want to play with fire, who am I to stand in their way? I've yet to buy anything from Psystar or build a hackintosh. But I am not going to poo-poo my fellow Mac user from doing so. That, Dr., is all I have been saying.
There was nothing "overly complex" in your words. In fact I take your opinion quite simply to be that if we don't agree with your opinions, and your personal priorities, that we're subject to your ridicule. Technical issues don't take automatic priority just because these are the issues you happen to know or care about. Issues that you personally don't know or care about aren't "mumbo jumbo" -- they happen to be important to some of us, for good reasons that some of us are prepared to discuss. They don't become irrelevant because you prefer to ignore them.
Fast Fred is right, Apple is in it for the HARDWARE. How many of the listed products run on anything other than a mac (LEGALLY)? Only one - iTunes. And that promotes sales of iPods and iPhones. The rest run EXCLUSIVELY on Mac OSX. If they were in the software business, would it make sense to neglect 85%+ of the market? NO! They make it exclusive to Mac OSX so that YOU HAVE TO BUY APPLE HARDWARE TO USE IT!! Then they make their money off the hardware, and have a clear differentiation that gives them resistance to competitors and their pricing. A LOT of people consider Apple software superior, which is why they MUST buy Apple hardware to use it. Apple makes money.
If Apple sold Leopard to PC users, they would lose a lot of hardware sales because it would their be cannibalized by competitors PCs. All that $1000+ hardware cannibalized just to sell a few million copies of OSX (and have the rest pirated)?
Clearly, Steve Jobs and the gang at Apple know what they are doing.
Honestly, I'm kinda thinking about making a Hackintosh just because I don't want to buy a monitor with the iMac, and don't want to be in Breakout Box Hell via buying a Mini.
You've got to admit, Apple are some stubborn bastards for leaving such a huge void in their product offerings by neglecting the xMac / 1/2 Mac Pro market.
Yes, I know desktop sales are declining and notebooks are driving, but if you think about it, Apple could almost completely destroy Psystar's business case by putting out a $1100-$1300 1/2Mac Pro.
Hell, they could even put it on the slow-refresh-cycle of the Mini.
Yup, I have a Mac Pro at work now. I'm a Linux admin, but am going to start dabbling in some Mac stuff to help out a colleague.
I'm not running a Mac keyboard or mouse just yet. What I found is that I find it hard to get used to the mouse acceleration in OSX, so I've installed the Microsoft driver (which lets you override the mouse acceleration provided by OSX) for my IntelliMouse on both my home Hackintosh and my Mac Pro at work. Now I can get the same experience in Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX over my KVM.
Dude this is the one of the best things on Macs: mouse acceleration. You might get used to it and not want to go back. Well at least in my experience I find it helpful. In Windows, just touching the mouse sends it across the screen...it's not as sensitive. Anyhow glad you were able to customize your system to the way you like, I just wanted to share my perspective. Welcome to the Mac community! Good luck in the dabbling...
Jeez I duno about this whole debate. I could go both ways. I am even considering hackintoshing a netbook for my fiancee's Christmas present this year. It's the only way to really replace her 12" PBG4. The Air is too big and too expensive. After reading a recent review with 10.6 that seemed dead simple and very compatible with the Dell 10v I hate to say it but I might do it.
"Groklaw has an extensive look at the latest developments in the Psystar vs. Apple story. There's a nice picture illustrating the accusation by Apple that Psystar makes three unauthorized copies of OS X. The most interesting however, is the last copy. From Apple's brief: 'Finally, every time Psystar turns on any of the Psystar computers running Mac OS X, which it does before shipping each computer, Psystar necessarily makes a separate modified copy of Mac OS X in Random Access Memory, or RAM. This is the third unlawful copy.' Psystar's response: 'Copying a computer program into RAM as a result of installing and running that program is precisely the copying that Section 117 provides does not constitute copyright infringement for an owner of a computer program. As the Ninth Circuit explained, permitting copies like this was Section 117's purpose.' Is Apple seriously arguing that installing a third party program and booting OS X results in copyright infringement due to making a derivative work and an unauthorized copy?"
Comments
Agreed. And the case between Apple and Psystar is not over yet. So in the meantime, it technically is legal to buy from Psystar and expand one's choices accordingly...
Not being resolved doesn’t mean it’s legal. A judge could order Psystar to retrieve those OpenMacs they’ve sold. If you want an OSx86 machine just build one you can more HW choices than Psystar offers, which is far less than Apple, and you can do it for a lot cheaper, too.
And I say this as someone would would be thrilled to see a matte screen iMac and other such "choices" come on the scene. But for now, we have to look elsewhere for that.
Just buy a couple of suction cups from iFixit and remove the glossy glass cover. The display is underneath and It looks like a nice matte display under the glass: http://s2.guide-images.ifixit.com/ig...WoWy5FPH.large
Please replace "cloner" with "thief" and "litigant" with "PITA." Thanks.
...doesn’t mean it’s legal.
Nor is driving 41MPH on a 40MPH road. But I promise I won't ask you if you've ever committed such a heinous crime.
A judge could...
And an earthquake could cause your house to crash down on your head too if you choose to live in quake prone areas of the earth like California state or Japan (both of which have been home to me). Life is a risk, and some prefer to live on the edge. Some of us take the risks boldly, others cower from the risk. Yet, our diversity makes the world go 'round.
Like I said before, don't like all the legal mumbo jumbo talk. It's like many posting here are in law school. Let's focus on the technology for goodness sake. What can I do with OS X or Apple hardware that I didn't think I could do before? I like to ask those questions. Talking about what's legal and what's not is as boring as watching golf matches on TV (precisely why I don't watch such). Let the courts and lawyers worry about whether it's legal. I agree with you that someone contemplating Psystar needs to weight the risks, but some of us may simply not care about the risk. It's fun to give it a try.
Just buy a couple of suction cups from iFixit and remove the glossy glass cover.
I can appreciate a good joke. And removing the glass and saying you "enjoy the view" is truly a good joke indeed. But practically speaking, that is not desirable for many. Hence, some people look for other options.
If you want an OSx86 machine just build one
Since you suggested that, I see you and I agree that doing such is not a "crime against humanity." But for others in this forum who are clearly working on their law degree or trying to enter the police academy, I have to say this...
Some have gone the hackintosh route. I myself have not, but I don't feel like acting as a policeman or attorney, seeking with all my might to dissuade others from discovering new ways to use the software and technology they love. In a nutshell, that's what the Psystar case and hackintosh world is all about: creating new options for Mac users.
As a Mac lover since 1984, I first and foremost want Apple to satisfy my needs. But if they refuse, then I say let someone else try to do it. Perhaps the end result will be that the added pressure on Apple will get them to give us more in the end. But for now, we are getting glossy screens, flattened and truncated keyboards, and last year's video cards in October 2009 "new" Mac models. There's a lot to love about Apple products, but a lot to be desired too. Some are satisfied with official Apple hardware, and some go to Psystar. Why should I feel compelled to hate or otherwise act vicious toward my fellow Mac users who go outside the "official" Apple-branded hardware route? We're all in the same boat as far as I'm concerned.
I also don't think Blue Boxes were legal back in the 1970's either.
No of course not, but using one was a federal crime, and users faced that certain risk if caught. That's one of the reasons why blue boxes were strictly hacker projects, not products. So I'm sure I don't get your point here. I'm also beginning to resent the implication that those of us who understand the problems with Psystar's business model, and what harm it can do not only to Apple but to other holders of intellectual property, are simply "playing lawyer." Maybe our main difference is that we comprehend these issues, and understand what's at stake -- and you don't.
No of course not, but using one was a federal crime, and users faced that certain risk if caught. That's one of the reasons why blue boxes were strictly hacker projects, not products. So I'm sure I don't get your point here. I'm also beginning to resent the implication that those of us who understand the problems with Psystar's business model, and what harm it can do not only to Apple but to other holders of intellectual property, are simply "playing lawyer." Maybe our main difference is that we comprehend these issues, and understand what's at stake -- and you don't.
Good Post.
Fully agree.
blue boxes were strictly hacker projects, not products. So I'm sure I don't get your point here.
I apologize for apparently having made my words overly complex, Dr., but you answered your own question: "hacker projects" = Hackintosh = stuff sold by Psystar and similar companies.
If one wishes to purchase something to build their own Mac (whether building themselves or getting it prebuilt and pre-setup), you take some level of risk. Some people ignore the risk but lack the ability to build these machines themselves, so they go to the likes of silly Psystar. Others enjoy a challenge so they search the net for how to do it themselves.
I'm also beginning to resent...
I too was "resenting" after having read post after post about the legal mumbo jumbo, which ultimately led me to do the exact same thing as you did, "post my feelings on the matter." So we are at different ends of the stick, but both in the same boat.
...what harm it can do not only to Apple but to other holders of intellectual property
Thank you for this. You have expressed very pointedly the difference between our respective opinions. I personally don't think Psystar threatens to undermine Apple. And if they do, then Apple will sue them. Ooops! They already have done that. Well, then I am sure the courts will handle it. Ooops! They courts already are doing that.
So what I have said in my previous posts stands. Let the courts deal with it. And if some in the Mac community want to play with fire, who am I to stand in their way? I've yet to buy anything from Psystar or build a hackintosh. But I am not going to poo-poo my fellow Mac user from doing so. That, Dr., is all I have been saying.
Hmmm so
iTunes
iPhoto
iMovie
iDVD
iWeb
Garageband
Pages
Numbers
Keynote
Aperture
FinalCut Express
FinalCut Studio
Logic Studio
Logic Express
xSAN
are pieces of Hardware - hey ?
how old are you ?
Fast Fred is right, Apple is in it for the HARDWARE. How many of the listed products run on anything other than a mac (LEGALLY)? Only one - iTunes. And that promotes sales of iPods and iPhones. The rest run EXCLUSIVELY on Mac OSX. If they were in the software business, would it make sense to neglect 85%+ of the market? NO! They make it exclusive to Mac OSX so that YOU HAVE TO BUY APPLE HARDWARE TO USE IT!! Then they make their money off the hardware, and have a clear differentiation that gives them resistance to competitors and their pricing. A LOT of people consider Apple software superior, which is why they MUST buy Apple hardware to use it. Apple makes money.
If Apple sold Leopard to PC users, they would lose a lot of hardware sales because it would their be cannibalized by competitors PCs. All that $1000+ hardware cannibalized just to sell a few million copies of OSX (and have the rest pirated)?
Clearly, Steve Jobs and the gang at Apple know what they are doing.
You've got to admit, Apple are some stubborn bastards for leaving such a huge void in their product offerings by neglecting the xMac / 1/2 Mac Pro market.
Yes, I know desktop sales are declining and notebooks are driving, but if you think about it, Apple could almost completely destroy Psystar's business case by putting out a $1100-$1300 1/2Mac Pro.
Hell, they could even put it on the slow-refresh-cycle of the Mini.
[grumble, grumble, grumble]
Yup, I have a Mac Pro at work now. I'm a Linux admin, but am going to start dabbling in some Mac stuff to help out a colleague.
I'm not running a Mac keyboard or mouse just yet. What I found is that I find it hard to get used to the mouse acceleration in OSX, so I've installed the Microsoft driver (which lets you override the mouse acceleration provided by OSX) for my IntelliMouse on both my home Hackintosh and my Mac Pro at work. Now I can get the same experience in Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX over my KVM.
Dude this is the one of the best things on Macs: mouse acceleration. You might get used to it and not want to go back. Well at least in my experience I find it helpful. In Windows, just touching the mouse sends it across the screen...it's not as sensitive. Anyhow glad you were able to customize your system to the way you like, I just wanted to share my perspective. Welcome to the Mac community! Good luck in the dabbling...
Jeez I duno about this whole debate. I could go both ways. I am even considering hackintoshing a netbook for my fiancee's Christmas present this year. It's the only way to really replace her 12" PBG4. The Air is too big and too expensive. After reading a recent review with 10.6 that seemed dead simple and very compatible with the Dell 10v I hate to say it but I might do it.
As pointed out by a SlashDot commenter, Blizzard has already set precedence on those points already….
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...91024213209193