Macs 2010: USB3.0, FW1600+, both or neither?

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
Do you think the 2010 Macs, presumably starting to ship in January or February, will have USB3.0, FW1600/3200, both of these or none of these? Apple still seems committed to FW but they ignore USB3.0 like they did with USB2.0.



Apple systematically removed FW support from iDevices over several years so even if they postpone the inclusion they know they?ll have to support it since all iDevices can only sync with USB. Unless they are going to re-add support for it, which I don?t see happening.



With the ever growing capacity of iDevices I hope they add USB3.0 support with the next Mac releases so that this summer when the next iPhone hits we can also get USB3.0 support there. Waiting until 2011, when Intel is going to support it in their chipsets, will put Apple well behind the other PC makers.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 27
    dhagan4755dhagan4755 Posts: 2,147member
    I vote none of the above.



    If anything, Apple's going to move everything over to LightPeek for I/O. One port for all connectivity = less confusion for average consumers = better than Firewire/USB/Video out/Ethernet
  • Reply 2 of 27
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,125member
    I'd like to see the optical drive go external.



    I'd like to see something like a Gobi 3G card added.



    USB 3 and FW1600/3200 are going to give way to Light Peak.



    Consumers are now beginning to reduce cable clutter. Wireless printers are in demand

    and I see some consolidation of ports and devices ("All in one" printers are very popular)



    Mobile devices are exploding and with solid sync options (internet, Wifi and Mobilme) adding devices and getting up to speed is trivial.
  • Reply 3 of 27
    USB 3.0 will be on most new computers by the end of 2010. All of them by the end of 2011.



    Prediction: Light Peak is going to go to the same nowhere fast that Firewire went to. Apple may try forcing it onto the market, and the market is going to go "meh"
  • Reply 4 of 27
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DHagan4755 View Post


    I vote none of the above.



    If anything, Apple's going to move everything over to LightPeek for I/O. One port for all connectivity = less confusion for average consumers = better than Firewire/USB/Video out/Ethernet



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post


    USB 3.0 will be on most new computers by the end of 2010. All of them by the end of 2011.



    Prediction: Light Peak is going to go to the same nowhere fast that Firewire went to. Apple may try forcing it onto the market, and the market is going to go "meh"



    I have to agree with FuturePastNow, DHagan4755. LightPeak looks cool and I love fast connections that are consolidated but we?re talking about a long term solution here, not something that is gearing up to go universal. Besides not being a real product yet or even speced out or standardized yet, there is simply no way that a new port interface is going to replace all the other ports by the next Mac release. No older peripherals would work.



    If this gets ratified and accepted, Apple will have to add a single LightPeak at some future date while all the other ports are still there. Then we?ll see peripherals start getting made, maybe even Apple will support this and as need for the old ones wane we?ll see the fall away in favour of the new tech. This is not a fast process.



    USB3.0 is already shipping in some products, most notably ASUS logic boards, who I believe also often makes many of Apple?s boards. Perhaps they were working their boards to make sure that Apple?s excessive orders would be working well (baseless speculation)
  • Reply 5 of 27
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,125member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post


    USB 3.0 will be on most new computers by the end of 2010. All of them by the end of 2011.



    Prediction: Light Peak is going to go to the same nowhere fast that Firewire went to. Apple may try forcing it onto the market, and the market is going to go "meh"



    Based on what? Intel is the creator of USB 3.0 and they aren't even committing to USB 3.0 on motherboards until 2011.



    Nvidia confirms Intel's USB delay until 2011



    Quote:

    Bad news: Nvidia has confirmed Intel's stance on USB 3.0?no Intel chipsets will support the new standard until 2011. Short of Intel stating something different, USB 3.0 probably won't hit mass consumption until then. Is there any hope?



    Light Peak is Intel's creation but Apple and Sony appear to be wanting to invest in it. I'd say if you have Intel onboard and Apple it's going to take off.



    Neither Firewire nor USB can match the speed and latency of an optical solution. Since Light Peak is going to handle multiple protocol (USB, FW, Ethernet, Display Port etc) is there really a need to sink R&D dollars into USB and FW respectively?



    Light Peak is going to foster a cottage industry of "doo dads" that convert the signal in it's constituent protocol making a single cable run the equivalent of a structured wire run.



    Again the revelation here is the Corning ClearCurve technology (which diminishes bend radius problems) and Intel's controller.
  • Reply 6 of 27
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    The idea of a GPS chip in cell phones isn’t new but I don’t recall ever reading about it before. It’s a good thing to have with a Mac with a Mobile Me account. There is no reason why Find My Mac can’t be added to Find My iPhone. There are more than couple stories of stolen Macs being found because the owners had MobileMe installed and were able to figure out the location via IP address when the culprit logged in.



    Apple did add a Time Zone finder to Snow Leopard and Google is using HTML5’s geo-location in the API for searches. Those are the first steps for this inevitable inclusion. When it will become so, I don’t know, but hope it’s the next revision. I travel a lot and would like movies, weather and other things to auto location my location in Safari and Dashboard Widgets.
  • Reply 7 of 27
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Neither Firewire nor USB can match the speed and latency of an optical solution. Since Light Peak is going to handle multiple protocol (USB, FW, Ethernet, Display Port etc) is there really a need to sink R&D dollars into USB and FW respectively?



    True, but LightPeak is still aways off while USB3.0 is knocking at the door. I think Intel?s delay is mainly to give LightPeak a better start but I see no stopping USB3.0 from becoming the most popular peripheral port in the next few years.
  • Reply 8 of 27
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,125member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    True, but LightPeak is still aways off while USB3.0 is knocking at the door. I think Intel?s delay is mainly to give LightPeak a better start but I see no stopping USB3.0 from becoming the most popular peripheral port in the next few years.



    I think that's correct but then again I think that's smart on Intel's part. Copper only goes so fast and the prospects of designing USB 4 are likely not appealing to Intel. Let's be honest ...USB 3.0 will prove it's worth primarily in storage areas. Webcams, printers, and other peripherals that are non storage related will offer little benefit.



    Light Peak is on a whole 'nother level. Intel already has silicon that sends/receives LAN, Storage and HD display (1080p) over a single cable (Source). USB 3.0 will hit but it's days are clearly numbered.



    Intel's going to work on PCI Express and that'll dovetail right into Light Peak. I think vendors will see the "light" and won't invest in USB 3.0 as heavily.
  • Reply 9 of 27
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I think that's correct but then again I think that's smart on Intel's part. Copper only goes so fast and the prospects of designing USB 4 are likely not appealing to Intel. Let's be honest ...USB 3.0 will prove it's worth primarily in storage areas. Webcams, printers, and other peripherals that are non storage related will offer little benefit.



    Light Peak is on a whole 'nother level. Intel already has silicon that sends/receives LAN, Storage and HD display (1080p) over a single cable (Source). USB 3.0 will hit but it's days are clearly numbered.



    Intel's going to work on PCI Express and that'll dovetail right into Light Peak. I think vendors will see the "light" and won't invest in USB 3.0 as heavily.



    If LightPeak goes the way I expect it to we?ll see USB3.0 become standard for the average consumer devices. LightPeak will be backed by Apple, who will replace FireWire with LP for professional devices and eventually it will trickle down and replace USB devices. Macs will get 1 LP port with multiple USB3.0 on most Macs with an eventual shifting to more LP and less USB until it?s eventually gone. (That is a long term prediction)
  • Reply 10 of 27
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,125member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    If LightPeak goes the way I expect it to we?ll see USB3.0 become standard for the average consumer devices. LightPeak will be backed by Apple, who will replace FireWire with LP for professional devices and eventually it will trickle down and replace USB devices. Macs will get 1 LP port with multiple USB3.0 on most Macs with an eventual shifting to more LP and less USB until it?s eventually gone. (That is a long term prediction)



    I think Apple will jump on Light Peak first because they've always cherished low port counts. I don't see Apple jumping heavily into USB 3 because it doesn't allow much change in the computing enviroment. It's just a faster USB flavor and doesn't enable much other than faster transfer rates for storage.



    I see %50 of printers moving to wireless connections in 2.5 years and Bluetooth technology taking care of small peripherals like Mouse/Keyboard.



    I just don't see much of a future for USB 3.0 or FW 3200. Apple can't get Light Peak to the top alone but with Intel spearheading the technology and Sony being interested it's hard to go against these three 800lb Gorillas.
  • Reply 11 of 27
    dhagan4755dhagan4755 Posts: 2,147member
    I stand firm on LightPeak. I think USB 3 is what's not going to be going anywhere fast. I think LightPeak will be revolutionary. USB3 is going to be another one of those things where everyone's going to say what's the fuss? I think Intel even realizes this...which is why they have pushed back USB3.



    When you look at the mindset of the novice user who has to hook-up something vs. having one port that does it all (networking, peripherals, video out)...it's a no brainer. And with Intel & Apple rallying around it...you can count on it gaining wide acceptance. We'll laugh at this discussion in 5 years.
  • Reply 12 of 27
    I'd like to see a 3G chipset in all laptops. Early adoption of USB3.0 is preferred, but not crucial. Getting rid of the optical drive before the market is ready would have the potential of giving everything we gained back.
  • Reply 13 of 27
    duskdusk Posts: 36member
    I hope the next MBP come with an HD5750 which will be release around the same time. It would be a tremendous jump in performance from the outdated 9600M they have now.



    Addionally removing the optical drive would sound like something they could do now. Few people will ever miss it and if there come an external DVD Burner and BTO Blu Ray most will be happy. If they stick with the current unibody case they might use the space to enlarge the battery even more. I want a full day of mobility which means 10h.



    Light Peak will come but not next year. 2011 is much more likely.

    USB 3.0 is here but not supported by any Chipset that might end up in those Notebooks so unless they put in an extra chip, I wouldn't be so sure they will come with USB 3.0. It seems that is not such a cheap and simple Tech as USB 2.0 was, because there seems to be no effort to put it into any chipset.

    Nobody cares about Firewire I don't even think there is still developement. In theory there is already FW3200 out for a while. Apple wants to get rid of Firewire and I don't think any thing past FW800 will ever see the light of day.

    A 3G Chipset would be nice but I don't believe it will come.



    Arrendale + HD 5750 (1GB GDDR5) - optical drive + slightly bigger battery

    That would be my wish. The first two are likely the others not really, nut never loose hope.



    When do you guys think they will come out???

    Q1 is fixed but is it with Apple usually beginning of January or February or even March?
  • Reply 14 of 27
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,770member
    Adoption of any iteration of Firewire (past 800) is all but dead. LightPeak wins in 2011.



    Macs will move to USB 3.0, since such devices are already starting to appear.

    There's no downside to USB3 adoption, and LightPeak is overkill for many apps, e.g. USB sticks. USB3 wins in very late 2010.



    The biggest advance for 2010 will be the inclusion of WiFi Direct on Macs and printers.

    Jobs hates wires, so he's definitely not going to miss this boat. Road warriors will rejoice.



    I'm not sure if the firmware on existing MacBooks and wi-fi printers can be upgraded.

    (Apple would prefer you buy them all over again anyway.)
  • Reply 15 of 27
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,179moderator
    I don't think Light Peak supplies power to devices so it can't replace USB3 altogether because for low-power peripherals like scanners, webcams, mice, keyboards etc it won't work.



    Light Peak will be more like what ethernet is to network devices but for peripherals. It will allow people to have laptops with a single high speed port connected to a hub with USB, firewire etc ports and all those protocols can simultaneously transfer over one cable.



    It easily gets round the problem on the Macbooks of not having Firewire or eSATA and also allows a convenient docking solution. They could even allow displays to plug into it.



    I think USB 3 and Light Peak will both be the ubiquitous formats.



    Concerning optical drives, there are more movements towards alternative delivery methods. Blockbuster has started movie rentals on SD cards:



    http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/11/b...-some-candy-a/



    and I don't think many tablets will include optical drives. For now, Blu-Ray is the only way to get high quality movies onto large HDTVs but I think it will start to get pushed out of the portable devices first where it's not really needed due to the screen size.



    Due to the popularity of portable devices, this will continue the trend towards more network-oriented solutions or even a habit of publishers putting digital versions of movies onto Blu-Ray discs that can be copied to portables.



    P2P wifi mentioned above could allow something like a Blu-Ray jukebox. The discs could all sit in a room somewhere in a player and stream movies round the home network or copy digital versions to a portable.
  • Reply 16 of 27
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I don't think Light Peak supplies power to devices so it can't replace USB3 altogether because for low-power peripherals like scanners, webcams, mice, keyboards etc it won't work.

    […]

    I think USB 3 and Light Peak will both be the ubiquitous formats.



    I agree with your assessment about both being ubiquitous but note that LightPeak has power planned, according to Wikipedia.
    Quote:

    Instead of traditional armor, a flexible braided copper shell can be used to provide power to devices while also offering some physical protection.



    Quote:

    Concerning optical drives, there are more movements towards alternative delivery methods. Blockbuster has started movie rentals on SD cards:



    http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/11/b...-some-candy-a/



    It seems a little too late, BB will reportedly require you to supply your own SD card and the DRM will make it playable on specific HW. Blu-ray is the last optical media for consumers, NAND will be the way physical movies will survive in the future. but I don’t think BB has a winner on their hands.



    Quote:

    and I don't think many tablets will include optical drives.



    The trend to remove optical drives may have started with netbooks or ultra-lights, but HP has moved it to high-end notebooks now with the 13” and 15” HP Envys. As you know, companies usually beat Apple to the punch but Apple usually gets the credit because they tend to make the change across their entire line.
    I’ve been wanting to see this for some time now but this next revision seems to be the first time that it’s felt right. BTW, I quite like that HP Envy.



    Quote:

    For now, Blu-Ray is the only way to get high quality movies onto large HDTVs but I think it will start to get pushed out of the portable devices first where it's not really needed due to the screen size.



    YouTube is moving to 1080p and I suspect that 2010 will be a year of excessive tablets and media appliances. To me, this means that the online video stores will be offering 1080p video for the same prices as their 720p videos.



    Quote:

    Due to the popularity of portable devices, this will continue the trend towards more network-oriented solutions or even a habit of publishers putting digital versions of movies onto Blu-Ray discs that can be copied to portables.



    Decent article about movies being sold online and as physical copies.
  • Reply 17 of 27
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Based on what? Intel is the creator of USB 3.0 and they aren't even committing to USB 3.0 on motherboards until 2011.



    Nvidia confirms Intel's USB delay until 2011







    Light Peak is Intel's creation but Apple and Sony appear to be wanting to invest in it. I'd say if you have Intel onboard and Apple it's going to take off.



    Neither Firewire nor USB can match the speed and latency of an optical solution. Since Light Peak is going to handle multiple protocol (USB, FW, Ethernet, Display Port etc) is there really a need to sink R&D dollars into USB and FW respectively?



    Light Peak is going to foster a cottage industry of "doo dads" that convert the signal in it's constituent protocol making a single cable run the equivalent of a structured wire run.



    Again the revelation here is the Corning ClearCurve technology (which diminishes bend radius problems) and Intel's controller.





    Lightpeak is an Apple concept brought to Intel to figure out how to make it all work.
  • Reply 18 of 27
    duskdusk Posts: 36member
    Quote:

    Lightpeak is an Apple concept brought to Intel to figure out how to make it all work.



    That is only an Apple Fanboy rumor.

    Intel had a ResearchUnit that was trying to integrate optical transmitters and so on into a silicon Chip for over 10 Years. The perfect cable came around and intel was working on the devices you need on the end and beginning of the cable (or any optical cable).

    The only thing Apple might have done is tell Intel. "Hey we know you are working on shrink this stuff, speed it up we want it, you got all our support for a fast introduction." Apple brought Intel a wish and promised support, the concept was here all along.



    Adding Power to LighPeak can't be very difficult that is only a matter of specification. All you have to do is change the connector a little and had a copper wire to the optical cable. No problematic interference. I think most of the thinking goes into how the connector should look like.





    Yes and since someone said Light Peak is overkill.

    Lightpeak is perfect for a docking solution. Own cable to this one and it can provide all the connections to everything.

    Till now most universal dockingsolutions suck.

    It will hopefully end up in a standardized miniature connector that is the same on all smartphones, mp3 players...
  • Reply 19 of 27
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,555member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    True, but LightPeak is still aways off while USB3.0 is knocking at the door. I think Intel?s delay is mainly to give LightPeak a better start but I see no stopping USB3.0 from becoming the most popular peripheral port in the next few years.



    USB 3s delay has more to do with the tech being a bit to much to implement than anything. Getting Cooper to handle those data rates is not a piece of cake. In fact one could say they have reached a physical limit.



    Light Peak is more interesting for what has not been said about it. I don't see it ever completely replacing USB and honestly I don't think that is the intention. It would be a very sad day when Apple releases a notebook with no USB port.



    I suspect that Apple has very specific plans for Light Peak. One of those would be for docking a laptop. Another would be for the connection of storage arrays.



    Dave
  • Reply 20 of 27
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,125member
    Light Peak



    10Gbps bidirectional with a roadmap to 100Gbps

    Multiprotocol support including video.

    Small tranceiver (read affordable to manufacture) and routing silicon coming from Intel.



    Come on folks Intel's not going to spend a bunch of R&D on USB 3 when Light Peak offers so much more.



    Yes USB 3.0 will come but if you're a storage vendor you're going to promote the fastest connector which means you're testing out Light Peak as soon as it's available.



    If you're not a storage vendor then the appeal of USB 3.0 is largely moot because how fast a connection does a printer, scanner or non storage technology need?
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