Google's Nexus One compared to Apple's iPhone, Motorola Droid

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  • Reply 61 of 106
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by g3pro View Post


    There, fixed that for you.



    What are all these multi-touch gesture-recognition devices using projected capacitance displays that filled the market long before the iPhone? If that were the case then you?d think FingerWorks would have been able to get a lot more money for their IP.
  • Reply 62 of 106
    Supposed iPhone 4? Are you doubting there will be one?



    The 3 versions for the iPhone OS are in no way comparative to what is happening with Android fragmentation. You obviously have difficulty reading and retaining what has been posted in this thread so far.



    iPhone usage is growing every single day..



    Your other comments are so childish and ignorant they are not worth commenting on.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleSux View Post


    And the supposed iPhone 4 won't do essentially the same thing? New hardware and capabilities that may differentiate it from other iPhones in the wild? That's no different than multiple flavors of Android.



    And the app store? cmon. Everyone knows the vast majority of the apps are garbage. At least with android you can change the e-mail client, and browser, and hell- you can even download an app to make android look and act like an iPhone if you're too dumb to use a real smartphone.



    Do you think apple apps are some mystical thing? it's just code. And that can be fairly easily ported over to another platform. Google can inspire developers far easier than apple. And just consider the freedom they'll have over apple's "our way or the highway" approach.



    And something that doesn't require iTunes- thank jeebus. I rather not have a cellphone at all than load that POS software on my machine.



    iPhone marketshare has nowhere to go but down unless they get on another carrier. Even then, it'll peak for a short while and then get chewed away at. Enjoy yourselves, macbots, this is as good as it's going to get.



  • Reply 63 of 106
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Hi, professional Android developer here...



    Fragmentation on Android is overstated. You've got to remember that everything runs through the Dalvik VM. This abstracts the hardware from the developer. It's possible for Google and the manufacturers to change a lot of the OS (including UI) without affecting third party apps. It's a smart system.



    Obviously there are issues to take into consideration (CPU speed, RAM, screen size, API changes) but it's no harder than programming for Windows. And look how many apps there are for Windows.



    Obviously I still own an iPhone though.
  • Reply 64 of 106
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    Hi, professional Android developer here...



    Fragmentation on Android is overstated. You've got to remember that everything runs through the Dalvik VM. This abstracts the hardware from the developer. It's possible for Google and the manufacturers to change a lot of the OS (including UI) without affecting third party apps. It's a smart system.



    Obviously there are issues to take into consideration (CPU speed, RAM, screen size, API changes) but it's no harder than programming for Windows. And look how many apps there are for Windows.



    Obviously I still own an iPhone though.



    1) Why do you still own an iPhone?



    2) Why do you developer Java for Android and not C for the iPhone? Do you find it more profitable?



    3) Do you plan on moving to the NDK?



    4) What limitations do you have on accessing the HW using DVM over NDK or iPhone SDK?
  • Reply 65 of 106
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    We're not saying that fragmentation is necessarily a fatal problem or an insurmountable problem. But its certainly a challenge and limitation for developers. That will limit the number of developers who will want to deal with it.



    The main point is that developers do not have to deal with fragmentation on the iPhone at all.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    Hi, professional Android developer here...



    Fragmentation on Android is overstated. You've got to remember that everything runs through the Dalvik VM. This abstracts the hardware from the developer. It's possible for Google and the manufacturers to change a lot of the OS (including UI) without affecting third party apps. It's a smart system.



  • Reply 66 of 106
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by snookie View Post


    Your other comments are so childish and ignorant they are not worth commenting on.



    With comments like, ?? to make android look and act like an iPhone if you're too dumb to use a real smartphone...? really sum up this poster. The pessimistic and irrational individual that has been calling the iPhone a failure since it was first announced and keeps assuming he?ll be right? eventually. Which is true, eventually he will be. I can see him sitting at a street light saying ?Now!? every few seconds trying to guess when it will change and then grinning broadly when that change ultimately arrives as if there is a sense of clairvoyance or logic in his guess work.
  • Reply 67 of 106
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    1) Why do you still own an iPhone?



    Media playing capabilities. No other phone comes close. Also, I've been pretty underwhelmed by the Android phones so far. I'm not a big fan of HTC phones as they always feel so cheap and plastic. The Nexus One is getting closer though, especially with the OLED screen.



    Quote:

    2) Why do you developer Java for Android and not C for the iPhone? Do you find it more profitable?



    I do what my boss tells me to do. But we work with Android rather than iPhone because it's open source and we're free to do as we please. It's a much better fit for the kind of applications that we're developing.



    Quote:

    3) Do you plan on moving to the NDK?



    We've already been messing around at the lower layers. Nothing serious, just a bit of experimenting. It's surprising just how much of Android is open source. Much more of the source code is available than, say, Nokia's Maemo platform. We'll probably stick with the SDK unless there's a specific reason to use the NDK though.



    Quote:

    4) What limitations do you have on accessing the HW using DVM over NDK or iPhone SDK?



    Well, I think the total lack of decent games for Android tells you the whole story. Hence, the need for the NDK.
  • Reply 68 of 106
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    The main point is that developers do not have to deal with fragmentation on the iPhone at all.



    Yes, they do.



    Different CPU speeds, different amounts of RAM, different capabilities, different OS versions...



    It's not as bad but it does exist. And it'll only get worse.
  • Reply 69 of 106
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Apple will only accept apps into the app store that run on OS 3.0. Developers don't even have the choice of different OS versions.



    Different cpu speeds, different amounts of RAM largely effect the speed of how the device can run an app, but developers don't have to make any major changes.



    It won't be that bad because most people will move on a purchase the newest iPhone.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    Yes, they do.



    Different CPU speeds, different amounts of RAM, different capabilities, different OS versions...



    It's not as bad but it does exist. And it'll only get worse.



  • Reply 70 of 106
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    Media playing capabilities. No other phone comes close. Also, I've been pretty underwhelmed by the Android phones so far. I'm not a big fan of HTC phones as they always feel so cheap and plastic. The Nexus One is getting closer though, especially with the OLED screen.



    Why don?t they come close? They have access to more codecs and less restrictions to resolution constraints. If the OS and SDK/NDK are so good I?d think that a viable app would be easy to make with it being so ?open?.



    Quote:

    I do what my boss tells me to do. But we work with Android rather than iPhone because it's open source and we're free to do as we please. It's a much better fit for the kind of applications that we're developing.



    Can?t argue with that. What types of apps are they that, I?m assuming, won?t get App Store approved?



    Quote:

    Well, I think the total lack of decent games for Android tells you the whole story. Hence, the need for the NDK.



    There are lot of apps that simply don?t work as well on the Android as they do on the iPhone. Sure, they do the same thing, but simply not as well from what I?ve personally tried. From what I?ve read it?s because iPhone developers get easy access to frameworks and foundations that Android devs simply don?t(didn?t) have to or it?s simply too difficult to utilize.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    Yes, they do.



    Different CPU speeds, different amounts of RAM, different capabilities, different OS versions...



    It's not as bad but it does exist. And it'll only get worse.



    That isn?t even close to Android. If I had you develop an app for the iPhone and Touch from this year forward you know it?ll have at least v3.0 and with a Cortex A8, 256MB RAM and PowerVR SGX on a 320x480 3.5? display. Pretty simple. How many Android phones came out this the last 6 months? How many different ARM CPUs are there, with varying RAM and NAND making apps with large files problematic without offloading files to an SD card, if there is one. How many OS versions are for Android on new phones being sold in stores right now?



    Android has barely gotten off the ground and they are already splintering. I don?t think they?ll have the same problem as Linux since there will be mobile vendors controlling each splinter to a degree but it?s looking good for long term growth without a more solid and structured foundation for linear growth. Which can come from a vendor despite what others do with Android but so far we haven?t seen it.
  • Reply 71 of 106
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Why don?t they come close? They have access to more codecs and less restrictions to resolution constraints. If the OS and SDK/NDK are so good I?d think that a viable app would be easy to make with it being so ?open?.



    No-one has come up with a viable alternative to iTunes, IMO. Double-twist looks interesting but, as one of the other posters said, it's a pain to have to move your collection from one music manager to another. Even when you do, very few music players handle AAC files as well as iTunes.



    What someone int he Android community needs to do is come up with a decent on-device media player backed up with a decent computer-side music manager and make it simple to import your existing iTunes collection with the meta-data intact. It sounds simply but it obviously isn't.



    Quote:

    Can?t argue with that. What types of apps are they that, I?m assuming, won?t get App Store approved?



    Top secret, I'm afraid. We do work for enterprise customers mainly.



    Quote:

    That isn?t even close to Android. If I had you develop an app for the iPhone and Touch from this year forward you know it?ll have at least v3.0 and with a Cortex A8, 256MB RAM and PowerVR SGX on a 320x480 3.5? display. Pretty simple.



    So you're cutting 1st and 2nd gen devices out of the equation? Remember that the 3G is still on sale. That's a lot of potential sales lost.



    Quote:

    How many Android phones came out this the last 6 months? How many different ARM CPUs are there, with varying RAM and NAND making apps with large files problematic without offloading files to an SD card, if there is one. How many OS versions are for Android on new phones being sold in stores right now?



    Well, I've come from a background of writing apps for WinMo and Symbian. Android is still pretty easy in comparison. When writing for Android, I always assume a Qualcomm ARM11 520Mhz CPU, 192MB RAM and Android OS 1.6. That's going for the lowest common denominator. It's no different from what I'd do if I was writing an app for the iPhone - I'd code for the original iPhone running OS 3.0 where possible.



    The only real difference between the two platforms is that I have to think about different screen resolutions when coding for Android.
  • Reply 72 of 106
    sheffsheff Posts: 1,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    It’s not just the software updates, it the lack of all Android devices within a set time frame getting the same update at the same time AND the lack of consistency between HW types, UIs and the way different HW and areas of the OS interact differently despite providing the same essential functionality as other features.



    For instance, the lack of multi-touch in the included apps for the Droid, but available in 3rd-party apps and the EU version of the device. Also, the way the virtual keyboard in the Droid inputs data differently than the HW keyboard. (those two may have changes with the v2.0.1 update) Also, the fact that the HTC G1 cannot get Android v2.0 without a hack that it wasn’t available at the same time as the other devices.



    None of that is user friendly and easy for the average consumer to understand which may explain why the Droid ads seem to be focusing on a young, insecure, male demographic.



    O i see, so its kinda like symbian looking and feeling different on different phones. (Being a diff OS in a sense, tailored to phone and carrier) In that case fragmentation is a bad thing. If apps don't work across versions, there really isn't any point of having an integrated app store, and would be a pain in the ass to develop. Also the 20,000 apps number could be hella inflated if there are like 3 versions of the same app for different phones. Thanks for explaining what this was all about.
  • Reply 73 of 106
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    I'm sure they stopped selling the 8GB 3G and changed it to a 8GB 3GS.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RichL View Post


    So you're cutting 1st and 2nd gen devices out of the equation? Remember that the 3G is still on sale. That's a lot of potential sales lost.



  • Reply 74 of 106
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,979member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I'm sure they stopped selling the 8GB 3G and changed it to a 8GB 3GS.



    Nope, you're wrong. They're still selling the 8GB 3G.
  • Reply 75 of 106
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Yeah, it was just a rumor that stuck in the back of my mind.



    AT&T gearing up to launch $99 8GB iPhone 3GS?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post


    Nope, you're wrong. They're still selling the 8GB 3G.



  • Reply 76 of 106
    In Australia at least, you can buy:



    iPhone 3G 8GB (also equivalent 8GB iPod Touch) - old tech

    iPhone 3GS 16/32 GB (also equivalent 32/64 GB iPod Touch) - new tech
  • Reply 77 of 106
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    http://androidandme.com/2009/11/news...ion-look-like/



    What does Android fragmentation look like?



    Android fragmentation is real and it is not going away. Ask any developer and they will tell you about the difficulties of supporting multiple versions of Android and their different screen sizes.



    So what exactly does Android fragmentation look like?





















    Android visitors to androidandme.com



    The above data was generated by Google Analytics and it shows the number of visitors to our site using Android devices. This data was collected between November 6, 2009 (Droid launch) and November 21, 2009.



    Nearly 50 percent of Android users are running version 1.6, 26 percent are on the new 2.0, and the remaining 24 percent have 1.5.



    Android 1.6 leads the way because the HTC Dream (G1) and HTC Magic (myTouch 3G) phones have been out the longest and sold the most units. T-Mobile has updated both of these devices to Android 1.6 and HTC has made the 1.6 images available on their developer?s site.



    I?m a little surprised to see Android 2.0 is the second highest used version. There is currently only one phone (Droid) with this build, but we have heard reports of over 250,000 units sold already. The Droid is being heavily marketed towards the hardcore geek and this site also leans towards the hardcore user so that might be the reason for the elevated numbers.



    Android 1.5 has the highest number of devices available right now, but it is coming in 3rd in usage. There really is no excuse for the carriers and handset makers to be shipping phones with the outdated Android 1.5. I know some of these phones have custom UIs (Sense UI, Motoblur, TouchWiz) but they should be easily updated to Android 1.6.






    So are we reading these as similar to the Linux problem, or similar to the UI's in Japan problem? Japanese phones meaning they have never come together with a common browser, music engine, etc.... everything is tied to the phone UI wise.



    Either way, it isn't good for mass adoption.
  • Reply 78 of 106
    its so funny to see all these companys try to best apple and their mighty iphone!!

    they are a bunch of cheap imitations that will all be killed off and rebranded but still with that stupid android!! its dumb how all these FOOLS on different carriers go out and buy the same shit

    with a different body and name...iphone i only ONE!
  • Reply 79 of 106
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleSux View Post


    And the supposed iPhone 4 won't do essentially the same thing? New hardware and capabilities that may differentiate it from other iPhones in the wild? That's no different than multiple flavors of Android.



    And the app store? cmon. Everyone knows the vast majority of the apps are garbage. At least with android you can change the e-mail client, and browser, and hell- you can even download an app to make android look and act like an iPhone if you're too dumb to use a real smartphone.



    Do you think apple apps are some mystical thing? it's just code. And that can be fairly easily ported over to another platform. Google can inspire developers far easier than apple. And just consider the freedom they'll have over apple's "our way or the highway" approach.



    And something that doesn't require iTunes- thank jeebus. I rather not have a cellphone at all than load that POS software on my machine.



    iPhone marketshare has nowhere to go but down unless they get on another carrier. Even then, it'll peak for a short while and then get chewed away at. Enjoy yourselves, macbots, this is as good as it's going to get.



    oh shut up you stupid fool!! you have no idea what youre talking about! why dont you go and watch youre p.c. crash of something..
  • Reply 80 of 106
    Even the open source android has limitations imposed, those are bypassed with "rooting" the phone which is the equivalent of jail-braking the iphone. So that's one less argument in favor of the android OS. It's easy to hate the apple regarding the iphone but they have done an excellent job with a superior handset. They only have to focus on one handset and with yearly updates they keep distancing themselves for the competition.



    The argument about apple not supplying sufficient support for older iphones doesn't fly either. I have a bunch of apps for working with winmo phones that simply don't work on vista and win7 but worked on xp. And once more android 2.1 and 2.2 phones hit the market, the same will be applied to 1.6 handsets.



    Right now, Android as a platform simply can't produce an Iphone killer nor does it really seem to be their goal for the foreseeable future. Android is gasping for a stable market share, not dominance. On the hardware side of things, the gap between iphone updates gives others a chance to use tech improvements that weren't viable at the release of current iphone update, amoled screen cost reduction or a new cpu, for example.



    On the other hand, the apple app store is by far superior to the android market both in app quantity and dev incentive for writing them. But let's not kid ourselves here. Nobody has 1000 apps installed. 30 productive and 30 entertainment apps is what makes the difference, the other 100000 could just as well be clones of the 30 and nobody would be any wiser. Despite it's inferiority, the android market is the app store's biggest competitor.



    The android's goal to gain a chunk of the market has been achieved. But what it really does is ensure survival, it needs comptetive devices for further gains. On the other hand, the iphone's market share can't increase any further due to carrier contract limitations. Regardless if they switch to verizon or not. For the consumers, the termination fees and other "cutomer retention methods get in the way of switching carriers in order to get that new phone with another carrier.





    From the android perspective, OHA members will need luck with a tech breakthrough that they can use yet apple can't implement it due to the breakthrough's "bad timing" within their yearly update cycle. And of course, the aforementioned 60 apps to go along with the phone.



    As for the nexus one, it's success doesn't depend on the direct comparison to the iphone, it depends on beating other iphone competitors.



    The next iphone will most likely be a 4g phone tied to contracts with verizon. In those terms, nexus one has already lost the battle. If the N1 indeed hits the market, it will be the best android phone on the market. From my perspective which is based on rejecting carriers that charge insane monthly fees, it just might be the perfect phone.
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