As many comments have noted in various ways, Apple has by far the most extensive consumer "ecosystem" now. iTunes of course. iPhone, iPod, AppleTV. MobileMe. iLife and iWork. third party accessories. the new iTab will fit right in immediately and benefit from seamless integration with all the rest. no other tablet has such an existing ecosystem to support it. Android has Google's "cloud" services of course, but still no desktop interface or other hardware. WinMo will try to pull it together with Windows 7 by the end of this year, but not now. Nokia is trying to put it together with Ovi by next year, but has a long, long, long way to go. Google is working on its Chrome OS, but that by definition is not cross-platform and so has no installed base to start. Apple's in-place ecosystem is a huge advantage.
The other is the ease of use of the iPhone version of Mac OS and its simplified apps. any tablet running a full desktop OS is instantly extra work to use, because all desktop OS's - Windows, Mac, and Linux - continually require detailed adjustments, maintenance, and updates for their applications and OS. that's fine for the technically-inclined, but for all other consumers it is a drawback they don't want with a tablet - it is supposed to be simple. Any tablet designed to run desktop applications - whether Windows or Linux - will fall into this trap. Android is the only other simplified OS ready for full scale deployment now, but a tablet version will further its fragmentation issue. Apple's ability to instantly extend is iPhone OS and app universe to a tablet and still avoid fragmentation is another huge advantage.
But if you're going to invest in individual stocks, buy companies you have reason to expect will grow, not according to some arbitrary rule. And don't try to time the market. Even the pros can't do that consistently.
Likely we agree more than we disagree. My comment was in response to the guy who thought it was a good time to buy based upon the (old) news about the upcoming tablet. I tried to make the point that even if one were to be a market timer, buying now is far from a sure thing.
Personally, not that it matters, but I like good companies in industries which are (temporarily) out of favor. I favor value investing, using a medium-term horizon. Not market timing. And certainly not loading up on a stock, based upon old news, in anticipation of quick profits.
Is everyone in this thread forgetting that media tablets currently exist? you all do know about Archos right?
I bought an Archos 5 for my kid. Sweet little device. 800x480 5 inch touchscreen, multiple audio and video codec support, 60 gig drive, 720p ouput to the TV...
I'm not talking server, that's smart IT guys, I'm talking OS X with typical office users. That's the hard part, retraining them with a new UI. A company is going to suffer productivity loss while these people come up to speed, if they can.
I do welcome your posts. They have a tendancy to make the apparent intelligence of every other poster appear to be 20 IQ points or so greater than would otherwise be the case.
Likely we agree more than we disagree. My comment was in response to the guy who thought it was a good time to buy based upon the (old) news about the upcoming tablet. I tried to make the point that even if one were to be a market timer, buying now is far from a sure thing.
Personally, not that it matters, but I like good companies in industries which are (temporarily) out of favor. I favor value investing, using a medium-term horizon. Not market timing. And certainly not loading up on a stock, based upon old news, in anticipation of quick profits.
Well right, attempts to make quick profits often turn into quick losses. But I'd go back to my suggestion that buying on rumor is never a good idea, no matter what the old saw says.
Frankly, most people shouldn't even be buying individual stocks, but that's another issue.
Which personal computer manufacturer makes the most revenue in the US?
I think it is Apple (even when we remove iPhone and iPod revenues)
That is not niche. It's freaking huge!
C.
Ruling the Premium end of the market is not "niche." It's the most prized position any manufacturer could hope for. Instant exponential growth in mindhsare. Boom. The Premium end builds your brand like nothing else.
[QUOTE=solipsism;1543171]I don?t think these others have made a tablet for CES simply because they think Apple is coming out with one. I think tech has shifted to make it more viable now than in year?s past, which is why I think this is indirect proof of Apple coming to market with their own offering.
I agree that 3 or 4 were pre-announced last year at CES and this year is going to show more finished products.
What I question is just what the new tablets are trying to do? Are they going to have a screen like the e-readers that you can use in the sun?
I have used various tablets and convertible laptops, currently have a Toshiba, and still feel that it is a niche market. Why carry a large unit when an iphone will handle most data requirements.
WSJ announced this PM that the tablet will be in the 10in size range.
Ruling the Premium end of the market is not "niche." It's the most prized position any manufacturer could hope for. Instant exponential growth in mindhsare. Boom. The Premium end builds your brand like nothing else.
All products are niche products, except maybe food, water and air. Some niches are just more profitable than others.
Businesses who need to hire IT personal usually to fix other things besides Windows.
Even a company filled with just Mac's needs IT personnel, to maintain servers, data, backups, hardware maintenance, upgrades and hand holding/teaching.
It only takes a few minutes of actual labor to reinstall Windows if it's hosed. Take the machine into the shop and "ghost" the drive from a master and go do something else while that's working. Return the machine in a hour, it's that simple.
Another fact is that most people know and businesses use Windows and Office, schools teach it, the business world uses it. It's done, no possible penetration possible, even free OpenOffice hasn't made any real headway.
Another fact is OS X is tied to hardware, if your business needs matte screen laptops for the road warriors, Apple doesn't sell them except in a very few models. So choice of hardware is another problem, Toughbook with OS X? Dream on!
Apple doesn't give a rats ass, they want to sell flashy devices to home consumers and be absolutely no threat to Microsoft and the PC industry at all.
Forget all about OS X taking over the world, it's not going to happen. Apple is already introducing a new closed UI on consumer devices and that's going to be their market.
You want a real computer 10 years from now? It will be a Windows machine.
Sure a few companies can save money by going all Mac, but Apple is flaky and so is their hardware choices. Try getting video card upgrades for your Apple towers over the years and you'll see what I mean.
Also most Mac's are closed boxes, this makes it difficult to remove drive and service the device in house. The whole machine (and your companies private data) goes off to lala land to be fixed.
Since it's so easy to clone a Windows machine from a master, the benefits of going all Mac in business doesn't offset the drawbacks and limited hardware choices Apple provides.
Steve got that money from Gates to breath life into Apple and not to be a threat to his empire by going off into another direction. Apple Computer>Apple etc.
Sorry that's the truth and that comes from a 20 year Mac veteran.
Well right, attempts to make quick profits often turn into quick losses. But I'd go back to my suggestion that buying on rumor is never a good idea, no matter what the old saw says.
Frankly, most people shouldn't even be buying individual stocks, but that's another issue.
Again we agree. I'd even go further: Most folks should weight index funds very heavily in their portfolio.
Those specs are just overkill for a tablet so I severely doubt those photos are real...and if it is, well that's 599/699 pricing right there for you.
All the PC manufacturers will bomb out of the tablet, and the odds are stacked very heavily against the tablet right now based on how the tablet market IS and whatever price they put the tablet at.
The suggestion that Macs can only be service by Apple and cannot be serviced in-house is ludicrous.
....All repairs covered under warranty must be performed by Apple-certified technicians."
Right, one has to be a Apple Cert Tech in order to simply remove a hard drive with sensitive company data from a $1000 iMac or a $600 Mac Mini. That's what is ludicrous!
On the other hand, a basic IT guy with general knowledge can replace a hard drive in just about any $600 PC tower and not violate the warranty.
Apple managed to allow hard drives to be removed from some MacBooks, but then not the MacBook Pro's.
Inconsistency will not drive business people to consider Apple's limited hardware selection when they have 1000's of choices on the PC side and the security of knowing they can change hardware vendors and not suffer a software and retraining penalty.
This why businesses have been putting up with Windows, they have even pushed Microsoft to fix their security and reliability issues, this is a less expensive solution than a complete switch to another platform. Especially one that would be a hardware AND a software monopoly like Apple is.
Don't get me wrong, I love Apple, I just don't see them addressing the needs of business very well.
Perhaps that's the route John Sculley took and failed, Apple hasn't been taken serious by business types since and Microsoft firmly established itself in the meanwhile.
So Apple is going off with being a consumer products company, nothing wrong with that of course. Very profitable niche, not much market share though.
I just gathered these figures. I think they are accurate....
HP Total Quarterly Revenue is $28bn but that includes lots of businesses. EDS and Server stuff.
The Apple-like part of HP is called PSG - and just does PCs and consumer stuff
HP PSG Quarterly Revenue - $8.8bn
Of which PSG profit is very small. Under a billion. Could not find a figure but the margins are about 5%
Dell's Quarterly Revenue is $13bn
Of which profits were 472M!
Wheras
Apple's is turning over $10 billion a quarter.
Of which 1.7bn is profit.
So HP is a bigger company overall. But is about the same revenue as Apple in all PCs and consumer electronics.
Internationally, Dell has a larger turnover than Apple - but like Asus their profitability is pathetic.
Even if you remove Apple's iPod and iPhone businesses. I reckon "niche" Mac is making more money than Dell.
That's a big niche!
C.
The comparisons are unfair.
Dell is certainly selling more computers than Apple, but Apple is selling other things in addition that is making more profit and cost less, like media for instance and the nice kickback from AT&T for the iPhones.
Also the profits Microsoft makes from each copy of Windows needs to be figured in Dells profits too, not a cost, in order to more closely match Apple's, because Apple makes their own OS.
I do welcome your posts. They have a tendancy to make the apparent intelligence of every other poster appear to be 20 IQ points or so greater than would otherwise be the case.
Dell is certainly selling more computers than Apple, but Apple is selling other things in addition that is making more profit and cost less, like media for instance and the nice kickback from AT&T for the iPhones.
Also the profits Microsoft makes from each copy of Windows needs to be figured in Dells profits too, not a cost, in order to more closely match Apple's, because Apple makes their own OS.
Ah... no. Dell has to buy the OS from Microsoft, so that is an expense. On the other side of the ledger, they don't have to spend dollars developing one.
Comments
The other is the ease of use of the iPhone version of Mac OS and its simplified apps. any tablet running a full desktop OS is instantly extra work to use, because all desktop OS's - Windows, Mac, and Linux - continually require detailed adjustments, maintenance, and updates for their applications and OS. that's fine for the technically-inclined, but for all other consumers it is a drawback they don't want with a tablet - it is supposed to be simple. Any tablet designed to run desktop applications - whether Windows or Linux - will fall into this trap. Android is the only other simplified OS ready for full scale deployment now, but a tablet version will further its fragmentation issue. Apple's ability to instantly extend is iPhone OS and app universe to a tablet and still avoid fragmentation is another huge advantage.
Your point misses my main point.
Which personal computer manufacturer makes the most revenue in the US?
Last I knew, that was HP, followed closely by Dell, with Apple a distant third.
Do you have different information? Do I misremember? Have things changed?
I think it is Apple (even when we remove iPhone and iPod revenues)
I'd like to see some cites for that claim. I'd be surprised if you were correct, but I like to learn.
But if you're going to invest in individual stocks, buy companies you have reason to expect will grow, not according to some arbitrary rule. And don't try to time the market. Even the pros can't do that consistently.
Likely we agree more than we disagree. My comment was in response to the guy who thought it was a good time to buy based upon the (old) news about the upcoming tablet. I tried to make the point that even if one were to be a market timer, buying now is far from a sure thing.
Personally, not that it matters, but I like good companies in industries which are (temporarily) out of favor. I favor value investing, using a medium-term horizon. Not market timing. And certainly not loading up on a stock, based upon old news, in anticipation of quick profits.
Is everyone in this thread forgetting that media tablets currently exist? you all do know about Archos right?
I bought an Archos 5 for my kid. Sweet little device. 800x480 5 inch touchscreen, multiple audio and video codec support, 60 gig drive, 720p ouput to the TV...
It makes the iTouch look sick.
I'm not talking server, that's smart IT guys, I'm talking OS X with typical office users. That's the hard part, retraining them with a new UI. A company is going to suffer productivity loss while these people come up to speed, if they can.
I do welcome your posts. They have a tendancy to make the apparent intelligence of every other poster appear to be 20 IQ points or so greater than would otherwise be the case.
Likely we agree more than we disagree. My comment was in response to the guy who thought it was a good time to buy based upon the (old) news about the upcoming tablet. I tried to make the point that even if one were to be a market timer, buying now is far from a sure thing.
Personally, not that it matters, but I like good companies in industries which are (temporarily) out of favor. I favor value investing, using a medium-term horizon. Not market timing. And certainly not loading up on a stock, based upon old news, in anticipation of quick profits.
Well right, attempts to make quick profits often turn into quick losses. But I'd go back to my suggestion that buying on rumor is never a good idea, no matter what the old saw says.
Frankly, most people shouldn't even be buying individual stocks, but that's another issue.
Your point misses my main point.
Which personal computer manufacturer makes the most revenue in the US?
I think it is Apple (even when we remove iPhone and iPod revenues)
That is not niche. It's freaking huge!
C.
Ruling the Premium end of the market is not "niche." It's the most prized position any manufacturer could hope for. Instant exponential growth in mindhsare. Boom. The Premium end builds your brand like nothing else.
Going out on a limb - It will not be called iSlate. In fact it won't be called "i" anything.
It won't be called the Mac Touch.
I agree that 3 or 4 were pre-announced last year at CES and this year is going to show more finished products.
What I question is just what the new tablets are trying to do? Are they going to have a screen like the e-readers that you can use in the sun?
I have used various tablets and convertible laptops, currently have a Toshiba, and still feel that it is a niche market. Why carry a large unit when an iphone will handle most data requirements.
WSJ announced this PM that the tablet will be in the 10in size range.
Ruling the Premium end of the market is not "niche." It's the most prized position any manufacturer could hope for. Instant exponential growth in mindhsare. Boom. The Premium end builds your brand like nothing else.
All products are niche products, except maybe food, water and air. Some niches are just more profitable than others.
Like your optimism but here are the facts.
Businesses who need to hire IT personal usually to fix other things besides Windows.
Even a company filled with just Mac's needs IT personnel, to maintain servers, data, backups, hardware maintenance, upgrades and hand holding/teaching.
It only takes a few minutes of actual labor to reinstall Windows if it's hosed. Take the machine into the shop and "ghost" the drive from a master and go do something else while that's working. Return the machine in a hour, it's that simple.
Another fact is that most people know and businesses use Windows and Office, schools teach it, the business world uses it. It's done, no possible penetration possible, even free OpenOffice hasn't made any real headway.
Another fact is OS X is tied to hardware, if your business needs matte screen laptops for the road warriors, Apple doesn't sell them except in a very few models. So choice of hardware is another problem, Toughbook with OS X? Dream on!
Apple doesn't give a rats ass, they want to sell flashy devices to home consumers and be absolutely no threat to Microsoft and the PC industry at all.
Forget all about OS X taking over the world, it's not going to happen. Apple is already introducing a new closed UI on consumer devices and that's going to be their market.
You want a real computer 10 years from now? It will be a Windows machine.
Sure a few companies can save money by going all Mac, but Apple is flaky and so is their hardware choices. Try getting video card upgrades for your Apple towers over the years and you'll see what I mean.
Also most Mac's are closed boxes, this makes it difficult to remove drive and service the device in house. The whole machine (and your companies private data) goes off to lala land to be fixed.
Since it's so easy to clone a Windows machine from a master, the benefits of going all Mac in business doesn't offset the drawbacks and limited hardware choices Apple provides.
Steve got that money from Gates to breath life into Apple and not to be a threat to his empire by going off into another direction. Apple Computer>Apple etc.
Sorry that's the truth and that comes from a 20 year Mac veteran.
Well stated.
Well right, attempts to make quick profits often turn into quick losses. But I'd go back to my suggestion that buying on rumor is never a good idea, no matter what the old saw says.
Frankly, most people shouldn't even be buying individual stocks, but that's another issue.
Again we agree. I'd even go further: Most folks should weight index funds very heavily in their portfolio.
All the PC manufacturers will bomb out of the tablet, and the odds are stacked very heavily against the tablet right now based on how the tablet market IS and whatever price they put the tablet at.
Last I knew, that was HP, followed closely by Dell, with Apple a distant third.
Do you have different information? Do I misremember? Have things changed?
I'd like to see some cites for that claim. I'd be surprised if you were correct, but I like to learn.
I just gathered these figures. I think they are accurate....
HP Total Quarterly Revenue is $28bn but that includes lots of businesses. EDS and Server stuff.
The Apple-like part of HP is called PSG - and just does PCs and consumer stuff
HP PSG Quarterly Revenue - $8.8bn
Of which PSG profit is very small. Under a billion. Could not find a figure but the margins are about 5%
Dell's Quarterly Revenue is $13bn
Of which profits were 472M!
Wheras
Apple's is turning over $10 billion a quarter.
Of which 1.7bn is profit.
So HP is a bigger company overall. But is about the same revenue as Apple in all PCs and consumer electronics.
Internationally, Dell has a larger turnover than Apple - but like Asus their profitability is pathetic.
Even if you remove Apple's iPod and iPhone businesses. I reckon "niche" Mac is making more money than Dell.
That's a big niche!
C.
I just gathered these figures. I think they are accurate....
HP Total Quarterly Revenue is $28bn but that includes lots of businesses. EDS and Server stuff.
The Apple-like part of HP is called PSG - and just does PCs and consumer stuff
HP PSG Quarterly Revenue - $8.8bn
Of which PSG profit is very small. Under a billion. Could not find a figure but the margins are about 5%
Dell's Quarterly Revenue is $13bn
Of which profits were 472M!
Wheras
Apple's is turning over $10 billion a quarter.
Of which 1.7bn is profit.
So HP is a bigger company overall. But is about the same revenue as Apple in all PCs and consumer electronics.
Internationally, Dell has a larger turnover than Apple - but like Asus their profitability is pathetic.
Even if you remove Apple's iPod and iPhone businesses. I reckon "niche" Mac is making more money than Dell.
That's a big niche!
C.
Interesting stuff. Thanks.
The suggestion that Macs can only be service by Apple and cannot be serviced in-house is ludicrous.
....All repairs covered under warranty must be performed by Apple-certified technicians."
Right, one has to be a Apple Cert Tech in order to simply remove a hard drive with sensitive company data from a $1000 iMac or a $600 Mac Mini. That's what is ludicrous!
On the other hand, a basic IT guy with general knowledge can replace a hard drive in just about any $600 PC tower and not violate the warranty.
Apple managed to allow hard drives to be removed from some MacBooks, but then not the MacBook Pro's.
Inconsistency will not drive business people to consider Apple's limited hardware selection when they have 1000's of choices on the PC side and the security of knowing they can change hardware vendors and not suffer a software and retraining penalty.
This why businesses have been putting up with Windows, they have even pushed Microsoft to fix their security and reliability issues, this is a less expensive solution than a complete switch to another platform. Especially one that would be a hardware AND a software monopoly like Apple is.
Don't get me wrong, I love Apple, I just don't see them addressing the needs of business very well.
Perhaps that's the route John Sculley took and failed, Apple hasn't been taken serious by business types since and Microsoft firmly established itself in the meanwhile.
So Apple is going off with being a consumer products company, nothing wrong with that of course. Very profitable niche, not much market share though.
I just gathered these figures. I think they are accurate....
HP Total Quarterly Revenue is $28bn but that includes lots of businesses. EDS and Server stuff.
The Apple-like part of HP is called PSG - and just does PCs and consumer stuff
HP PSG Quarterly Revenue - $8.8bn
Of which PSG profit is very small. Under a billion. Could not find a figure but the margins are about 5%
Dell's Quarterly Revenue is $13bn
Of which profits were 472M!
Wheras
Apple's is turning over $10 billion a quarter.
Of which 1.7bn is profit.
So HP is a bigger company overall. But is about the same revenue as Apple in all PCs and consumer electronics.
Internationally, Dell has a larger turnover than Apple - but like Asus their profitability is pathetic.
Even if you remove Apple's iPod and iPhone businesses. I reckon "niche" Mac is making more money than Dell.
That's a big niche!
C.
The comparisons are unfair.
Dell is certainly selling more computers than Apple, but Apple is selling other things in addition that is making more profit and cost less, like media for instance and the nice kickback from AT&T for the iPhones.
Also the profits Microsoft makes from each copy of Windows needs to be figured in Dells profits too, not a cost, in order to more closely match Apple's, because Apple makes their own OS.
I do welcome your posts. They have a tendancy to make the apparent intelligence of every other poster appear to be 20 IQ points or so greater than would otherwise be the case.
Define "tendancy"
The comparisons are unfair.
Dell is certainly selling more computers than Apple, but Apple is selling other things in addition that is making more profit and cost less, like media for instance and the nice kickback from AT&T for the iPhones.
Also the profits Microsoft makes from each copy of Windows needs to be figured in Dells profits too, not a cost, in order to more closely match Apple's, because Apple makes their own OS.
Ah... no. Dell has to buy the OS from Microsoft, so that is an expense. On the other side of the ledger, they don't have to spend dollars developing one.
Yes your points, I don't see any.
Perhaps we should just let it be then.
So then you won't read or are just stubborn?