First of all pull you head out of your Ass, America, as lolo put it, is not the center of the world!</strong><hr></blockquote>
When did I say that? Pull your head out of you own ass and realize that France is useless. We DO NOT need them for anything at all. And they don't like it.
[quote]Originally posted by skip_112:
<strong>Second, have a little respect for the French, after all with out them America could have lost the war of indepenence and the US would still be under British rule.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We paid them back for that several times over alreay.
France's real embarrassment is that they are cozy with the numb nuts that run Iran. France has not lifted one finger to make life better for the people of Iran. That's why they are so huffy. Their foreign policy is a total failure and Bush called them on it.
Now go sit in the corner France. We'll call you when we need you or you get a spine. Don't wait by the phone though.
<strong>And Powerdoc: What do you think about this? (Vedrine's reaction)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unlike Vedrine i a m not socialist, but i think this man know his job, and in general i share his opinions about foreign policy (in general french people are ok with foreign politic and are divided about internal politic : just the contrary of Israel according to 2 of my friend (who where jew and therefore not ennemies of Israel))
Strange the way that Some AI reacts where there is a different opinion on the outsider Forum : is it an official US president site ? or is it an Apple insider site ?
Many people here complain a lot about Apple products and about Steve Jobs , and i never seen anyone said shut up ! you are all apple's troller a bunch of coward antisemit asshole.
So they should be less overreacting, a forum of discussion where anybody share the same opinion is just ... boring
A couple more thoughts re: "why isn't the French foreign minister's criticisms of the US widely reported in the US?"
1. It is well known that the Bush administration is pursuing a policy of minimal engagement with constrictive foreign treaties and obligations. The rejection of Kyoto and the retreat from the ABM treaty are part of a strategy of maximum flexibility for foreign policy.
2. It is also well known that France has, since the 50s, been interested in being a counter-weight to Anglo-American power and interests. Hence the common market which morphed into the E.U.: a way for France to stay tightly bound to Germany and to dominate the policy issues on the Continent.
Put 1 and 2 together. Bush's policies of "damn the torpedos / full speed ahead" reflect the maximum maneuverability he thinks he needs to accomplish his goals on the world stage. France knows this. Therefore, criticism of this policy publically is probably not meant to "influence" Bush or the US as much as it is meant to be politics for the home audience. Or the European audience. And therefore, such criticism serves to bolster France's own foreign policy objectives: namely, to represent something different than Anglo-American culture.
It's a case where the "foreign" minister is actually preaching to the home choir.
[quote]An article in today's New York Times runs under the headline "French Minister Call U.S. Policy Simplistic." The article begins, "PARIS, Feb. 6 -- Frustration with President Bush's worldview burst into the open here today, as Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine openly criticized Washington's approach to terrorism as 'simplistic.'" It's impossible for anyone other than Mr. Vedrine himself to know for sure why he is frustrated, but the betting here is that it has less to do with President Bush's worldview than with the fact that Mr. Vedrine is the foreign minister of a country that has long since passed into America's shadow. Here is Mr. Vedrine talking about France's relationship with America: "No one is easy to get on with in international relations. I don't think we are either. In any event, we don't have that reputation in the United States. . . . There remain serious disagreements which we talk about frankly, amicably." That comment is from an interview Mr. Vedrine gave in 1998 -- during the Clinton administration. The Times article manages to avoid mentioning the fact that Mr. Vedrine was frustrated back then, too. <hr></blockquote>
<strong>A couple more thoughts re: "why isn't the French foreign minister's criticisms of the US widely reported in the US?"
1. It is well known that the Bush administration is pursuing a policy of minimal engagement with constrictive foreign treaties and obligations. The rejection of Kyoto and the retreat from the ABM treaty are part of a strategy of maximum flexibility for foreign policy.
2. It is also well known that France has, since the 50s, been interested in being a counter-weight to Anglo-American power and interests. Hence the common market which morphed into the E.U.: a way for France to stay tightly bound to Germany and to dominate the policy issues on the Continent.
Put 1 and 2 together. Bush's policies of "damn the torpedos / full speed ahead" reflect the maximum maneuverability he thinks he needs to accomplish his goals on the world stage. France knows this. Therefore, criticism of this policy publically is probably not meant to "influence" Bush or the US as much as it is meant to be politics for the home audience. Or the European audience. And therefore, such criticism serves to bolster France's own foreign policy objectives: namely, to represent something different than Anglo-American culture.
It's a case where the "foreign" minister is actually preaching to the home choir.</strong><hr></blockquote>
interesting quote, but the foreign minister does not only speach for home (europe) even if it's true in a certain way. However , France is not the foreign politic leader of Europe, he is only one of them, As the dear M. Scott says France represant nothing, but Europe is represanting something, but Europe is not the Puppet of France. Are you trying to divide us, Timo ?
... but Europe is not the Puppet of France. Are you trying to divide us, Timo ?<hr></blockquote>
Europe is certainly not the puppet of France. My point only is that France is trying to influence EU-wide feelings on American unilateralism, and that is consistent with what France has been doing since the war.
And I'm not trying to divide...I personally don't much care for American unilateralism. But I also don't much care for the political maneuverings of other countries. I see the foriegn minister's statements as something for internal politcal consumption -- self-serving maneuvering not all that different from Bush, really.
Europe is certainly not the puppet of France. My point only is that France is trying to influence EU-wide feelings on American unilateralism, and that is consistent with what France has been doing since the war.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
France is more involved in the Middle orient than US : we have many islamic people here, and peace is important for our contry own safe, we have also an important and dynamic jew community . France want that both this community leave in peace, that's not exactly the case : they are some violence against jewish people coming from non educated muslim of poor city aera. So France is concerned by the problem , but France does not think that the only answer is the war against terrorism, the war is important but we must add something else.
So in a way you are right, this declaration is home politic, but it's also outside politic, France wish sincerely that the middle east become a land of peace.
U.S. foreigh policy is simplistic? The War on Tearror is anything but. This guy's a foriegn minister. Diplomatic types aren't all that fond of bright lines like the one Bush has drawn when he speaks of the "Axis of Evil". I think that's a large part of what's going on here. And I guess it does have to be admitted that our foriegn policy is a lot simpler than it would be if we felt the need to clear everything with the French. I also agree with Timo about Verdine's comments being for internal consumption. There is a massive number of Algerians living in France now. Everything France does or says about the Near East is complicated by that fact.
Sitting in a country next to France, I never felt more European. The terrible thing with American people like you is that they are even unaware of how stupid and ignorant they come across. I assume you've never even been to France. Imagine me bashing all Americans just because I read you're posts or because of American foreign policies during the last 30 years. Where would we end?
[quote]Imagine me bashing all Americans just because I read you're posts or because of American foreign policies during the last 30 years.<hr></blockquote>
It happens all the time. I've had "you ignorant American" thrown at me for as little as saying that I think the EU might be inherently flawed.
It's a common sentiment from a highly xenophobic region. It's kind of like having John Goodman run up to me and start calling me "fatty", somehow I just don't take it seriously.
It's a common sentiment from a highly xenophobic region. It's kind of like having John Goodman run up to me and start calling me "fatty", somehow I just don't take it seriously.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>U.S. foreigh policy is simplistic? The War on Tearror is anything but.
. I also agree with Timo about Verdine's comments being for internal consumption. There is a massive number of Algerians living in France now. Everything France does or says about the Near East is complicated by that fact.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think US foreign policy is simplistic, but the declarations of Georges W.Bush are in a way simplistic when he speak about the axe of evil ,. There is certainly Bad leaders in the case of Iracq and north korea (unfortunately there is a lot of dictator around the world), the case of Iran is more complicated, progressive president (who want to deal with the US) but with low power and agressive and intolerant religious leaders with lot of power.
When G. Bush speak of axe of evil, people can think he said that everypeople here is evil, , and thus must be neutralized. I don't think it's the case, but why does he have to speak in that way, why don't he say the governement of this states are a threat to US nation : it will make more sense and nobody will say that US foreign policy is simplistic.
I don't think that G Bush is stupid, i think he said that sort of declaration for internal consumption either, the problem is that everyone listen what the US president say. And for foreign people that sort of declaration sound strange.I think G Bush consider that the opinions of Americans are more important than the opinions of others people (you can not worry him for that , but you must understand that your president can hardly be appreciated for that outside US)
I don't think you should criticize a country until you've lived there for a little while, but hey, that's just me.
I said earlier that America wasn't the center of the world. I was wrong. It is indeed the center of the world, at least from an American perspective. The bottom line is that the center of the world is where you live, wherever that might be.
Americans don't care about what goes on in France and in Europe. I can't blame them. The same is true for the French: they couldn't care less about American news, politics, or sports. Most people in France (and in the world in general) don't have a clue who John Goodman is, nor do they know what baseball and american football are. And they're probably better off that way
<strong>I don't think you should criticize a country until you've lived there for a little while, but hey, that's just me.
I said earlier that America wasn't the center of the world. I was wrong. It is indeed the center of the world, at least from an American perspective. The bottom line is that the center of the world is where you live, wherever that might be.
Americans don't care about what goes on in France and in Europe. I can't blame them. The same is true for the French: they couldn't care less about American news, politics, or sports. Most people in France (and in the world in general) don't have a clue who John Goodman is, nor do they know what baseball and american football are. And they're probably better off that way
Comments
And Scott is right, France is irrelevant, hasn't been relevant to the world stage in over 50 years.
I'm not saying they shouldn't speak as they see fit, I just don't see why anyone should care.
And furthermore,
America IS the center of the world, haven't you been paying attention?
[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
<strong>
First of all pull you head out of your Ass, America, as lolo put it, is not the center of the world!</strong><hr></blockquote>
When did I say that?
[quote]Originally posted by skip_112:
<strong>Second, have a little respect for the French, after all with out them America could have lost the war of indepenence and the US would still be under British rule.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We paid them back for that several times over alreay.
Now go sit in the corner France. We'll call you when we need you or you get a spine. Don't wait by the phone though.
<strong>And Powerdoc: What do you think about this? (Vedrine's reaction)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unlike Vedrine i a m not socialist, but i think this man know his job, and in general i share his opinions about foreign policy (in general french people are ok with foreign politic and are divided about internal politic : just the contrary of Israel according to 2 of my friend (who where jew and therefore not ennemies of Israel))
Strange the way that Some AI reacts where there is a different opinion on the outsider Forum : is it an official US president site ? or is it an Apple insider site ?
Many people here complain a lot about Apple products and about Steve Jobs , and i never seen anyone said shut up ! you are all apple's troller a bunch of coward antisemit asshole.
So they should be less overreacting, a forum of discussion where anybody share the same opinion is just ... boring
1. It is well known that the Bush administration is pursuing a policy of minimal engagement with constrictive foreign treaties and obligations. The rejection of Kyoto and the retreat from the ABM treaty are part of a strategy of maximum flexibility for foreign policy.
2. It is also well known that France has, since the 50s, been interested in being a counter-weight to Anglo-American power and interests. Hence the common market which morphed into the E.U.: a way for France to stay tightly bound to Germany and to dominate the policy issues on the Continent.
Put 1 and 2 together. Bush's policies of "damn the torpedos / full speed ahead" reflect the maximum maneuverability he thinks he needs to accomplish his goals on the world stage. France knows this. Therefore, criticism of this policy publically is probably not meant to "influence" Bush or the US as much as it is meant to be politics for the home audience. Or the European audience. And therefore, such criticism serves to bolster France's own foreign policy objectives: namely, to represent something different than Anglo-American culture.
It's a case where the "foreign" minister is actually preaching to the home choir.
Found it
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/07/international/europe/07ALLI.html"; target="_blank">French Minister Calls U.S. Policy 'Simplistic'</a>
Anyone who reads NYT has to read SmaterTimes too to see what the NYT left out.
<a href="http://www.smartertimes.com"; target="_blank">Smartertimes</a>
[quote]An article in today's New York Times runs under the headline "French Minister Call U.S. Policy Simplistic." The article begins, "PARIS, Feb. 6 -- Frustration with President Bush's worldview burst into the open here today, as Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine openly criticized Washington's approach to terrorism as 'simplistic.'" It's impossible for anyone other than Mr. Vedrine himself to know for sure why he is frustrated, but the betting here is that it has less to do with President Bush's worldview than with the fact that Mr. Vedrine is the foreign minister of a country that has long since passed into America's shadow. Here is Mr. Vedrine talking about France's relationship with America: "No one is easy to get on with in international relations. I don't think we are either. In any event, we don't have that reputation in the United States. . . . There remain serious disagreements which we talk about frankly, amicably." That comment is from an interview Mr. Vedrine gave in 1998 -- during the Clinton administration. The Times article manages to avoid mentioning the fact that Mr. Vedrine was frustrated back then, too. <hr></blockquote>
[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
<strong>A couple more thoughts re: "why isn't the French foreign minister's criticisms of the US widely reported in the US?"
1. It is well known that the Bush administration is pursuing a policy of minimal engagement with constrictive foreign treaties and obligations. The rejection of Kyoto and the retreat from the ABM treaty are part of a strategy of maximum flexibility for foreign policy.
2. It is also well known that France has, since the 50s, been interested in being a counter-weight to Anglo-American power and interests. Hence the common market which morphed into the E.U.: a way for France to stay tightly bound to Germany and to dominate the policy issues on the Continent.
Put 1 and 2 together. Bush's policies of "damn the torpedos / full speed ahead" reflect the maximum maneuverability he thinks he needs to accomplish his goals on the world stage. France knows this. Therefore, criticism of this policy publically is probably not meant to "influence" Bush or the US as much as it is meant to be politics for the home audience. Or the European audience. And therefore, such criticism serves to bolster France's own foreign policy objectives: namely, to represent something different than Anglo-American culture.
It's a case where the "foreign" minister is actually preaching to the home choir.</strong><hr></blockquote>
interesting quote, but the foreign minister does not only speach for home (europe) even if it's true in a certain way. However , France is not the foreign politic leader of Europe, he is only one of them, As the dear M. Scott says France represant nothing, but Europe is represanting something, but Europe is not the Puppet of France. Are you trying to divide us, Timo
PARIS, France -- A senior French government minister has attacked the U.S. approach to fighting terrorism as "simplistic ...
The article can be found at:
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/02/07/france.bush/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/02/07/france.bush/index.html</a>;
... but Europe is not the Puppet of France. Are you trying to divide us, Timo
Europe is certainly not the puppet of France. My point only is that France is trying to influence EU-wide feelings on American unilateralism, and that is consistent with what France has been doing since the war.
And I'm not trying to divide...I personally don't much care for American unilateralism. But I also don't much care for the political maneuverings of other countries. I see the foriegn minister's statements as something for internal politcal consumption -- self-serving maneuvering not all that different from Bush, really.
<strong>
Europe is certainly not the puppet of France. My point only is that France is trying to influence EU-wide feelings on American unilateralism, and that is consistent with what France has been doing since the war.
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
France is more involved in the Middle orient than US : we have many islamic people here, and peace is important for our contry own safe, we have also an important and dynamic jew community . France want that both this community leave in peace, that's not exactly the case : they are some violence against jewish people coming from non educated muslim of poor city aera. So France is concerned by the problem , but France does not think that the only answer is the war against terrorism, the war is important but we must add something else.
So in a way you are right, this declaration is home politic, but it's also outside politic, France wish sincerely that the middle east become a land of peace.
Sitting in a country next to France, I never felt more European. The terrible thing with American people like you is that they are even unaware of how stupid and ignorant they come across. I assume you've never even been to France. Imagine me bashing all Americans just because I read you're posts or because of American foreign policies during the last 30 years. Where would we end?
It happens all the time. I've had "you ignorant American" thrown at me for as little as saying that I think the EU might be inherently flawed.
It's a common sentiment from a highly xenophobic region. It's kind of like having John Goodman run up to me and start calling me "fatty", somehow I just don't take it seriously.
<strong>
It's a common sentiment from a highly xenophobic region. It's kind of like having John Goodman run up to me and start calling me "fatty", somehow I just don't take it seriously.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So we should all relax, then
<strong>U.S. foreigh policy is simplistic? The War on Tearror is anything but.
. I also agree with Timo about Verdine's comments being for internal consumption. There is a massive number of Algerians living in France now. Everything France does or says about the Near East is complicated by that fact.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think US foreign policy is simplistic, but the declarations of Georges W.Bush are in a way simplistic when he speak about the axe of evil ,. There is certainly Bad leaders in the case of Iracq and north korea (unfortunately there is a lot of dictator around the world), the case of Iran is more complicated, progressive president (who want to deal with the US) but with low power and agressive and intolerant religious leaders with lot of power.
When G. Bush speak of axe of evil, people can think he said that everypeople here is evil, , and thus must be neutralized. I don't think it's the case, but why does he have to speak in that way, why don't he say the governement of this states are a threat to US nation : it will make more sense and nobody will say that US foreign policy is simplistic.
I don't think that G Bush is stupid, i think he said that sort of declaration for internal consumption either, the problem is that everyone listen what the US president say. And for foreign people that sort of declaration sound strange.I think G Bush consider that the opinions of Americans are more important than the opinions of others people (you can not worry him for that , but you must understand that your president can hardly be appreciated for that outside US)
I said earlier that America wasn't the center of the world. I was wrong. It is indeed the center of the world, at least from an American perspective. The bottom line is that the center of the world is where you live, wherever that might be.
Americans don't care about what goes on in France and in Europe. I can't blame them. The same is true for the French: they couldn't care less about American news, politics, or sports. Most people in France (and in the world in general) don't have a clue who John Goodman is, nor do they know what baseball and american football are. And they're probably better off that way
Just my 2 cents...
<strong>I don't think you should criticize a country until you've lived there for a little while, but hey, that's just me.
I said earlier that America wasn't the center of the world. I was wrong. It is indeed the center of the world, at least from an American perspective. The bottom line is that the center of the world is where you live, wherever that might be.
Americans don't care about what goes on in France and in Europe. I can't blame them. The same is true for the French: they couldn't care less about American news, politics, or sports. Most people in France (and in the world in general) don't have a clue who John Goodman is, nor do they know what baseball and american football are. And they're probably better off that way
Just my 2 cents...</strong><hr></blockquote>
who is John Goodman ? is it a comic ?
He's an actor. He was on the hit TV show Roseanne:
<a href="http://www.eonline.com/Facts/People/Bio/0,128,6205,00.html"; target="_blank">http://www.eonline.com/Facts/People/Bio/0,128,6205,00.html</a>;