as a chemist who has regularly worked with hexanes and related chemicals, there are both many ways to avoid safety issues with this chemical (gloves and masks, for example), and many safer options (check out heptane, as a really obvious example)...
of course, the issue is that these measures cost money, and these companies have to play by the same else they get washed out by the competition. Accordingly, either China needs to set some standards (yeah right), or someone needs to pressure them into changing (yeah, right)...
It's more accurate to say that the United States has expensive labor and cheap natural resources, while most developing industrial nations suffer the reverse.
Hexane is widely used and relatively safe, but chronic exposure has known risks. Workplace safety requires a persistent and concerted effort, which clearly they are not prioritizing. For instance, at my current job, I can't even have a soldiering gun without goggles, a fire extinguisher, a ventilated hood, etc., and we're not even using lead anymore!
Note that the last domestic U.S. manufacturer of computers was NeXT, nearly 20 years ago, selling for $10,000. I worked at Dell 15 years ago, but all the electronics were custom-built elsewhere (i.e., overseas) and the U.S. plants were just doing the assembling. I cannot envision a competitive domestic electronics manufacturer.
Apple should just bring the manufacturing back to the US and set an example for the thousands of other US-based companies that produce in China, while we have to deal with a 10% unemployment rate.
What people don't seem to want to see is that one day we will have to pay the price, and the longer we wait, the more painful it's going to be.
You'll never close the cost gap between Chinese and domestic workers when the Chinese Gov't keeps the Yuan artificially low. This theory only works in the real world where currencies are allowed to find their actual values in the world economy. OBTW, this is why China has such a drastic trade surplus.
Well said. Keeping the yuan artificially low is effectively their employment policy. (for interest, current unemployment rate is 9.2% in China.)
The comparison of present-day China to early 19th century Britain is quite apt. A huge labor market being simultaneously pushed from the countryside into the cities by industrial development, where wages are poor and living and working conditions worse. Probably some know the story of Ned Lud -- two hundred years later it sounds eerily similar. The biggest difference of course is that this is the 21st century and China has a totalitarian form of government. I'm not sure that the world has ever seen that particular combination.
You'll never close the cost gap between Chinese and domestic workers when the Chinese Gov't keeps the Yuan artificially low. ..OBTW, this is why China has such a drastic trade surplus.
Well, that also has to do somewhat with the fact that we don't make anything in this country anymore. Even if the Yuan were to be adjusted, the dollar would never catch up. This country became a services-based economy in the 80s and didn't look back (and some would say the middle class).
EVERYTHING is made in China these days. Even the "American" and "Japanese" car companies use a lot of Chinese-made parts, from the plastic blinker lights to things like?Chinese steel and windshields.
One day, it's going to be a pretty big problem. "Hey can we buy some of your steel so we can make a battleship to destroy you? No? How about some computer chips so we can send you an email about this this peace accord thing?"
It's more accurate to say that the United States has expensive labor and cheap natural resources, while most developing industrial nations suffer the reverse.
Hexane is widely used and relatively safe, but chronic exposure has known risks. Workplace safety requires a persistent and concerted effort, which clearly they are not prioritizing. For instance, at my current job, I can't even have a soldiering gun without goggles, a fire extinguisher, a ventilated hood, etc., and we're not even using lead anymore!
Note that the last domestic U.S. manufacturer of computers was NeXT, nearly 20 years ago, selling for $10,000. I worked at Dell 15 years ago, but all the electronics were custom-built elsewhere (i.e., overseas) and the U.S. plants were just doing the assembling. I cannot envision a competitive domestic electronics manufacturer.
No one remembers the deliberately toxic milk, or lead infested toys?
It's good to see the Chinese workers trying to get some kind of safety standards ironed out, although it will raise prices somewhat. All in all, it isn't worth people dying to assemble electronics for goodness sake.
Envisioning a plant to assemble electronics in the US isn't that hard now, given the economic climate. People are tired of the overinflated Union cost of business (although most really only read or see about the bad ones, i.e., UAW, MTA.) The UAW and their respective managerial counterparts I think have learned their lesson, shown by Toyota and Hyundai. $1B US auto plants that have no unions, yet fair pay and a stake in the company for the workers. Tying together performance with wealth, much like should be done with the CEO's pay of those companies (kind of like Mr. Jobs does.)
These things can have their place here in the US, it just takes a long time for corporations to change. They have invested quite a bit of time and money into moving operations overseas. I think in a few years you will see things start to come back State-side. Apple is building a server farm here, don't forget. Given their tendency to be 5 years ahead on technological advances, maybe time will show they are 5 years ahead on corporate strategy as well.
After all, there is no place like home when it comes to controlling your IP, every one else in the world has far more lenient copyright/patent laws. Here's to hoping
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
Well, that also has to do somewhat with the fact that we don't make anything in this country anymore. Even if the Yuan were to be adjusted, the dollar would never catch up. This country became a services-based economy in the 80s and didn't look back (and some would say the middle class).
EVERYTHING is made in China these days. Even the "American" and "Japanese" car companies use a lot of Chinese-made parts, from the plastic blinker lights to things like?Chinese steel and windshields.
One day, it's going to be a pretty big problem. "Hey can we buy some of your steel so we can make a battleship to destroy you? No? How about some computer chips so we can send you an email about this this peace accord thing?"
I think you are confusing Chinese steel with American recycled steel. We send them our scraps, they smelt it and either use it or sell it back to us.
Well, that also has to do somewhat with the fact that we don't make anything in this country anymore. Even if the Yuan were to be adjusted, the dollar would never catch up. This country became a services-based economy in the 80s and didn't look back (and some would say the middle class).
EVERYTHING is made in China these days. Even the "American" and "Japanese" car companies use a lot of Chinese-made parts, from the plastic blinker lights to things like…Chinese steel and windshields.
True, we don't build much in this country anymore.
But if the yuan floated against the dollar, euro, yen, etc. this lopsided manufacturing imbalance (and trade imbalance, but I'm looking smaller here) would eventually strengthen the yuan to the point where it was no longer cost feasible for western companies to build their goods in China. So goods imported into China would become cheaper and goods exported from China would become more expensive. Note that this wouldn't benefit the Chinese worker much unless they already had the means to buy imported goods (which nationalism would say needed to be "protected", sound familiar?)
OBTW, this is why the 2010 Toyota Camry sold in the US today actually has more US content than so-called domestic cars that ostensibly come from Detroit.
Back on topic...
For goods from Apple, the initial change that would happen if the yuan were allowed to float against world currencies is that components would still come from China for a time while actual construction would move to Vietnam, etc. Eventually this would spark mini-Chinas anywhere labor was cheap and strife was low. Historically, before that was the Republic of China, it was Japan, Taiwan, Korea, etc. Rinse and repeat.
Note that China has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I'm just not sure why the US and EU allow it to happen as it's not in our collective best interests. Wall Street vs. Main Street, I guess. Usually this degenerates into a populist protectionist movement, which will temporarily cripple both Chinese and western economies until it can find a new equilibrium. Either way, it won't last.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skittlebrau79
One day, it's going to be a pretty big problem. "Hey can we buy some of your steel so we can make a battleship to destroy you? No? How about some computer chips so we can send you an email about this this peace accord thing?"
Exactly. Remember that access to resources was the original conflict that drove the Japanese to attack the US in WWII. Not that it was a "winnable" war, but that it reached a point where fighting it became inevitable.
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
Wow. And which orifice did you pull $10 out of?
You have no idea how international manufacturing works. You actually think the $10 cost (you know; the $10 you pulled out of your orifice) to assemble the iPhone, as it assembled today, is the same cost it would be if parts were all boxed and shipped to U.S., transported to factories assembled, packaged, loaded back on planes, and then sent back to China, Europe, etc?
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
if it's that easy and cheap why isn't apple making iphones here but instead paying the shipping costs from China along with all the other costs of doing business in China?
probably because in the 21st century you will never find a community in the USA that will let you build a factory that spits out all this hazardous waste. there are a lot of these wackos here in NYC and there are still parts of NYC that aren't being built up because of pollution clean up costs. Whole Foods abandoned a store here it was well into the process of building after the pollution clean up costs got out of control
For the labor pendulum to swing back to the US somewhat, US labor cost will need to stop rising or decline somewhat. Perhaps in the US there might be company provided housing and healthcare in exchange for low pay.
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
But every part will cost more if you'd like to move the manufactures back to the USA. Every chip, case, screen, even wires will be priced higher.
And you keep in your mind that it'll increase enviromental contamination
Comments
of course, the issue is that these measures cost money, and these companies have to play by the same else they get washed out by the competition. Accordingly, either China needs to set some standards (yeah right), or someone needs to pressure them into changing (yeah, right)...
nope, I don't got no solutions.
I can already tell this thread will have nothing to do with increasing my knowledge of tech.
Other than for the mention of the chemical name of the cleaning fluid, what about his story is 'tech?'
Hexane is widely used and relatively safe, but chronic exposure has known risks. Workplace safety requires a persistent and concerted effort, which clearly they are not prioritizing. For instance, at my current job, I can't even have a soldiering gun without goggles, a fire extinguisher, a ventilated hood, etc., and we're not even using lead anymore!
Note that the last domestic U.S. manufacturer of computers was NeXT, nearly 20 years ago, selling for $10,000. I worked at Dell 15 years ago, but all the electronics were custom-built elsewhere (i.e., overseas) and the U.S. plants were just doing the assembling. I cannot envision a competitive domestic electronics manufacturer.
Other than for the mention of the chemical name of the cleaning fluid, what about his story is 'tech?'
Other than the high-pitched squealing, what about your comment makes a contribution to this conversation?
Other than the high-pitched squealing, what about your comment makes a contribution to this conversation?
At least it was a comment on topic, which yours weren't.
Apple should just bring the manufacturing back to the US and set an example for the thousands of other US-based companies that produce in China, while we have to deal with a 10% unemployment rate.
What people don't seem to want to see is that one day we will have to pay the price, and the longer we wait, the more painful it's going to be.
Sure, iPhone will cost $1000 probably.
You'll never close the cost gap between Chinese and domestic workers when the Chinese Gov't keeps the Yuan artificially low. This theory only works in the real world where currencies are allowed to find their actual values in the world economy. OBTW, this is why China has such a drastic trade surplus.
Well said. Keeping the yuan artificially low is effectively their employment policy. (for interest, current unemployment rate is 9.2% in China.)
Somewhat getting off topic here I guess.
I appreciate the Chinese who sacrificed their health, environment and more to make my iPhone. Thank you
Note that the last domestic U.S. manufacturer of computers was NeXT, nearly 20 years ago, selling for $10,000.
Apple had a plant in Fountain, Colorado that they sold in 1996. All work was transferred to SCI at the same facility for three more years.
Apple plant in Elk Grove, California made G4s and G5s until April 2004.
You'll never close the cost gap between Chinese and domestic workers when the Chinese Gov't keeps the Yuan artificially low. ..OBTW, this is why China has such a drastic trade surplus.
Well, that also has to do somewhat with the fact that we don't make anything in this country anymore. Even if the Yuan were to be adjusted, the dollar would never catch up. This country became a services-based economy in the 80s and didn't look back (and some would say the middle class).
EVERYTHING is made in China these days. Even the "American" and "Japanese" car companies use a lot of Chinese-made parts, from the plastic blinker lights to things like?Chinese steel and windshields.
One day, it's going to be a pretty big problem. "Hey can we buy some of your steel so we can make a battleship to destroy you? No? How about some computer chips so we can send you an email about this this peace accord thing?"
It's more accurate to say that the United States has expensive labor and cheap natural resources, while most developing industrial nations suffer the reverse.
Hexane is widely used and relatively safe, but chronic exposure has known risks. Workplace safety requires a persistent and concerted effort, which clearly they are not prioritizing. For instance, at my current job, I can't even have a soldiering gun without goggles, a fire extinguisher, a ventilated hood, etc., and we're not even using lead anymore!
Note that the last domestic U.S. manufacturer of computers was NeXT, nearly 20 years ago, selling for $10,000. I worked at Dell 15 years ago, but all the electronics were custom-built elsewhere (i.e., overseas) and the U.S. plants were just doing the assembling. I cannot envision a competitive domestic electronics manufacturer.
No one remembers the deliberately toxic milk, or lead infested toys?
It's good to see the Chinese workers trying to get some kind of safety standards ironed out, although it will raise prices somewhat. All in all, it isn't worth people dying to assemble electronics for goodness sake.
Envisioning a plant to assemble electronics in the US isn't that hard now, given the economic climate. People are tired of the overinflated Union cost of business (although most really only read or see about the bad ones, i.e., UAW, MTA.) The UAW and their respective managerial counterparts I think have learned their lesson, shown by Toyota and Hyundai. $1B US auto plants that have no unions, yet fair pay and a stake in the company for the workers. Tying together performance with wealth, much like should be done with the CEO's pay of those companies (kind of like Mr. Jobs does.)
These things can have their place here in the US, it just takes a long time for corporations to change. They have invested quite a bit of time and money into moving operations overseas. I think in a few years you will see things start to come back State-side. Apple is building a server farm here, don't forget. Given their tendency to be 5 years ahead on technological advances, maybe time will show they are 5 years ahead on corporate strategy as well.
After all, there is no place like home when it comes to controlling your IP, every one else in the world has far more lenient copyright/patent laws. Here's to hoping
Sure, iPhone will cost $1000 probably.
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
Well, that also has to do somewhat with the fact that we don't make anything in this country anymore. Even if the Yuan were to be adjusted, the dollar would never catch up. This country became a services-based economy in the 80s and didn't look back (and some would say the middle class).
EVERYTHING is made in China these days. Even the "American" and "Japanese" car companies use a lot of Chinese-made parts, from the plastic blinker lights to things like?Chinese steel and windshields.
One day, it's going to be a pretty big problem. "Hey can we buy some of your steel so we can make a battleship to destroy you? No? How about some computer chips so we can send you an email about this this peace accord thing?"
I think you are confusing Chinese steel with American recycled steel. We send them our scraps, they smelt it and either use it or sell it back to us.
Well, that also has to do somewhat with the fact that we don't make anything in this country anymore. Even if the Yuan were to be adjusted, the dollar would never catch up. This country became a services-based economy in the 80s and didn't look back (and some would say the middle class).
EVERYTHING is made in China these days. Even the "American" and "Japanese" car companies use a lot of Chinese-made parts, from the plastic blinker lights to things like…Chinese steel and windshields.
True, we don't build much in this country anymore.
But if the yuan floated against the dollar, euro, yen, etc. this lopsided manufacturing imbalance (and trade imbalance, but I'm looking smaller here) would eventually strengthen the yuan to the point where it was no longer cost feasible for western companies to build their goods in China. So goods imported into China would become cheaper and goods exported from China would become more expensive. Note that this wouldn't benefit the Chinese worker much unless they already had the means to buy imported goods (which nationalism would say needed to be "protected", sound familiar?)
OBTW, this is why the 2010 Toyota Camry sold in the US today actually has more US content than so-called domestic cars that ostensibly come from Detroit.
Back on topic...
For goods from Apple, the initial change that would happen if the yuan were allowed to float against world currencies is that components would still come from China for a time while actual construction would move to Vietnam, etc. Eventually this would spark mini-Chinas anywhere labor was cheap and strife was low. Historically, before that was the Republic of China, it was Japan, Taiwan, Korea, etc. Rinse and repeat.
Note that China has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. I'm just not sure why the US and EU allow it to happen as it's not in our collective best interests. Wall Street vs. Main Street, I guess. Usually this degenerates into a populist protectionist movement, which will temporarily cripple both Chinese and western economies until it can find a new equilibrium. Either way, it won't last.
One day, it's going to be a pretty big problem. "Hey can we buy some of your steel so we can make a battleship to destroy you? No? How about some computer chips so we can send you an email about this this peace accord thing?"
Exactly. Remember that access to resources was the original conflict that drove the Japanese to attack the US in WWII. Not that it was a "winnable" war, but that it reached a point where fighting it became inevitable.
Other than the high-pitched squealing, what about your comment makes a contribution to this conversation?
You must be a tech guy, for sure: you can tell the pitch from text!
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
Wow. And which orifice did you pull $10 out of?
You have no idea how international manufacturing works. You actually think the $10 cost (you know; the $10 you pulled out of your orifice) to assemble the iPhone, as it assembled today, is the same cost it would be if parts were all boxed and shipped to U.S., transported to factories assembled, packaged, loaded back on planes, and then sent back to China, Europe, etc?
(yeah, $10) Brilliant.
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
if it's that easy and cheap why isn't apple making iphones here but instead paying the shipping costs from China along with all the other costs of doing business in China?
probably because in the 21st century you will never find a community in the USA that will let you build a factory that spits out all this hazardous waste. there are a lot of these wackos here in NYC and there are still parts of NYC that aren't being built up because of pollution clean up costs. Whole Foods abandoned a store here it was well into the process of building after the pollution clean up costs got out of control
For the labor pendulum to swing back to the US somewhat, US labor cost will need to stop rising or decline somewhat. Perhaps in the US there might be company provided housing and healthcare in exchange for low pay.
Do YOU want to work at such company?
Seems to me you pulled that number out of an orifice. It assumes (as did another poster) that somehow assembly costs are a very significant portion of the cost of each iPhone, something I would strongly refute. We all have seen the articles on how much the components of an iPhone cost, and that Apple marks everything up about 100%. I therefore propose that it only costs $10 or so to assemble an iPhone, as there's not a whole lot of $ left to play with. As such, if you were to clean up these factories of their hexane and give these workers the bonus they were promised, you'd only add $1-2 to the cost of each unit. If you're willing to deny these workers that small amount, then you're a jackass, pure and simple.
But every part will cost more if you'd like to move the manufactures back to the USA. Every chip, case, screen, even wires will be priced higher.
And you keep in your mind that it'll increase enviromental contamination