Inside the multitouch FingerWorks tech in Apple's tablet

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  • Reply 101 of 161
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,649member
    " ...And boy, have we patented it.""



    Yet everyone and his dog seems able to copy Apple as per usual. So were the patents lame? Or are the copies very limited compared with Apple? I have never tried a phone from a copycat company yet so I simply don't know but their ads certainly imply they are as good as an iPhone.
  • Reply 102 of 161
    irelandireland Posts: 17,794member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by success View Post


    Is that the best you can do?







    That's a fiery haired deer, it's no unicorn.
  • Reply 103 of 161
    successsuccess Posts: 1,040member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    That's a fiery haired deer, it's no unicorn.



    It's a baby unicorn.....no corn yet.
  • Reply 104 of 161
    jon tjon t Posts: 131member
    I was a touch expectant of Mr Jobs in demanding 3 years, but this post on MDN was long before any iPhone announcement, let alone iSlate...



    Mar 20, 06 - 05:52 pm Comment from: Macaday



    I just read Stuarts post and a thought "ping" crossed my mind. I reckon Apple do need the phone technology because the genuine, ultimate, ALL-IN-ONE product will one day be here.



    So the parts of that gizmo they need will be the phone, HDTV output, GPS, WiFi and Bluetooth. Put all that together on an OSX operating system all working beautifully together and with a touchscreen and you have one very cool product that will shake the world. No other manufacturer could come close to making that work, but Apple definitely could.



    iSlate. I want one. Within 3 years please Mr Jobs.
  • Reply 105 of 161
    mr. memr. me Posts: 3,221member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post


    I don't understand why Apple hasn't yet introduced a multi-touch keyboard/mouse surface as FingerWorks has. For a company that prides itself on innovation, they're being surprisingly conservative. ...



    You make two contradictory statements. What is innovative about releasing a product that has already been released by another company? You also betray an astonishing misunderstanding of technology from Apple. Apple has never sold technology for technology's sake. It sells technology that "just works" for its customers. There are notable exceptions, but they are just that--exceptions. Apple is indeed an innovative company. However, its singular goal is to bring intuitive technology to the masses. If the technology exists, then Apple uses it. If it does not exist, then Apple invents it. Then there are those cases where Apple takes an available technology and makes it usable.
  • Reply 106 of 161
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacJello View Post


    A couple weeks ago AppleInsider reported that some who had seen the tablet were claiming that we would be surprised by the input method. Others have suggested that the tablet will make extraordinary use of multi-touch. A week ago an AI post suggested that iphones may come with touch sensitive panels on the back cover. This article quotes Steve Jobs emphasizing that one of Apple's keys to success is introducing intuitive new interfaces.



    Speculating and crossing fingers, I suggest that the key innovation in the iPad will be multi-touch back navigation, in particular "back-typing." The key problem with tablet computers up to this point is input method. You have to hold the tablet, and input data, at the same time. A stylus (while great for some purposes) is lousy for text input. Thumb typing is slow and awkward at best. Back-typing could solve the input problem, and completely change the character and usefulness of a tablet. If Apple can make it feel intuitive and easy, they will have a monumental success.



    Pick up a smallish, thin hardback book (whatever size you think the iPad will be). Hold it between your palms. Amazingly all of your fingers are free to tap on the back of the book, while your thumbs are free to tap on the front. This does not work with an iPhone because it's too small. All we need now is a typing method that makes use of these freely tapping fingers. It will need to be a new method, probably one that does not require tapping in 26 different spots to choose letters, but there is no principled reason this can't be done. The thumbs could operate space and shift and choose between sets of letters, the fingers would merely tap. I'm convinced this could be at least as fast, and as natural, as standard typing.



    I don't believe that Apple would introduce a device that didn't provide some truly unique hardware related property. This is the one I'm voting for.



    This is what I?ve been saying for a long time now. I?m glad someone else sees it.



    You can hold, while still resting on the ground, your notebook display panel. Surely this is larger than a tablet but you can get the idea of how your fingers are free to move on the back, the thumbs are free on the front, perhaps for typing on a separated arch keyboard, and yet you can still firmly grip the device.



    They have patents for it, Notion Ink is doing it, and frankly, it?s the only thing that makes sense..
  • Reply 107 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anilsudhakaran View Post


    Well you obviously don't know how to use it.



    No, Ireland has simply relied on "resting" his hand on his mouse for too long and is no longer able to hold his hand up like the rest of us can due to deterioration of his muscles. So the Magic Mouse doesn't work for him.



    Unfortunately, he doesn't qualify his blanket statements. What he says is, "The Magic Mouse sucks" when what he should be saying is, "The Magic Mouse sucks for me".
  • Reply 108 of 161
    str1f3str1f3 Posts: 573member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ArticulatedArm View Post


    What if the Tablet is used as a peripheral that works in conjunction with your primary PC though? This way it wouldn't matter if you use the iPhone OS because you are just using it as an input device. So it may not be an all in one solution like the Modbook but you get the same results with your primary PC. IMO it would be a waste of a tablet if you can't use it for dual duty like this -- media player and drawing pad -- especially for a 1000 bucks.



    It's not a bad idea but it's not very useful. The problem with using this device as some kind of mouse or alternative input device for a desktop is that it makes for a sort of screwy user experience. You will have two screens that are in two very different positions and you lose that sense of touch-based intuitivness that the iPhone OS gives you because the primary machine is the desktop. It's convoluted and that seems very un-Apple. This is not even considering that if it has the iphone's concave design, it can't even rest flat on a surface.



    This tablet may just be an e-reader of sorts or may eventually become a full-blown computer 5-10 years from now. Apple may have another product in the pipeline that is meant as a replacement for a laptop. However, just going by rumors, this is not meant to replace your computer.
  • Reply 109 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by EvilMole View Post


    There's a very good reason we stopped using fingers to paint with and invented brushes, pencils and pens...



    Although some cannot for physical reasons, we never "stopped using fingers to paint with. Brushes, pencils and pens...are just an extension of our fingers.
  • Reply 110 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post


    I don't understand why Apple hasn't yet introduced a multi-touch keyboard/mouse surface as FingerWorks has. For a company that prides itself on innovation, they're being surprisingly conservative. I was surprised that they came out with the Magic Mouse at all, instead of an external trackpad, which would have been more useful considering the usefulness of the MacBook (Pro) trackpad.



    As a geek, I find that the movement from keyboard to mouse/trackpad and back again wastes precious seconds from a day of heavy coding. That's why I've memorized as many keyboard shortcuts as possible, and why IDEs such as Eclipse have introduced so many of them, even for such mouse intensive tasks as switch from the editor to the project view. In my close to 10 year career as a developer, I've probably spent over a solid month switching from keyboard to mouse.



    I'm hoping Apple is working on this, and are just doing their do diligence in resolving the design, ergonomic, and QA issues inherent in such a device.





    I hope so too, I have my own grievances with the new highly reflective screens, but Apple has proven it places the design of it's hardware above ergonomics. Luckily there was a massive outpouring of hostility concerning that and Apple has offered a few of the older options.



    Isn't there a third party keyboard that makes your job a lot easier?
  • Reply 111 of 161
    leptonlepton Posts: 111member
    Apple has found a need for a stylus on the iPhone/iPod Touch. Note the point of sale touches used in their retail stores. They now use a stylus so customers can sign their name. There are two uses for a stylus, signatures and detailed drawing. For writing, not so much.



    Luckily all you need for a stylus on these devices is an electrically conductive stick with no electronics. I predict an updated OS for the tablet and phone will support this type of stylus by including the Ink technology that is already in the Mac OS. It supports drawing and handwriting.
  • Reply 112 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post


    It's not a bad idea but it's not very useful. The problem with using this device as some kind of mouse or alternative input device for a desktop is that it makes for a sort of screwy user experience. You will have two screens that are in two very different positions and you lose that sense of touch-based intuitivness that the iPhone OS gives you because the primary machine is the desktop. It's convoluted and that seems very un-Apple. This is not even considering that if it has the iphone's concave design, it can't even rest flat on a surface.



    This tablet may just be an e-reader of sorts or may eventually become a full-blown computer 5-10 years from now. Apple may have another product in the pipeline that is meant as a replacement for a laptop. However, just going by rumors, this is not meant to replace your computer.



    I see things the opposite. I actually think the way we have been doing things is what is convoluted. We have just been conditioned to not see that. Think about it.. what I am really describing is really like a modern version of the paper and book. Your tablet is the paper and your primary PC is the book.. only they can both interact with each other. And the paper can even function as a keyboard.



    I believe the hurdle is understanding how to use these things to be most efficient. The way I think of it is your tablet is used for manipulating things hands-on and the primary PC is used for reference images or a wider view etc etc It's really just like dual monitors but on top of each other rather than side by side.



    Also, keep in mind.. Apple has patents for a laptop that has 2 screens so it would be like taking a Apple laptop and putting another screen where the keyboard is.. and you would use this screen as a input device/keyboard. This is the same idea really.
  • Reply 113 of 161
    irelandireland Posts: 17,794member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lepton View Post


    Apple has found a need for a stylus on the iPhone/iPod Touch. Note the point of sale touches used in their retail stores. They now use a stylus so customers can sign their name.



    Why do people insisting on jumping to these sorts of conclusions. People sign with their fingers, and Apple doesn't have all the answers.
  • Reply 114 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Just look at the magic mouse, it's terrible.



    I think it's brilliant!!
  • Reply 115 of 161
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    That's a fiery haired deer, it's no unicorn.



    How about this?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    Although some cannot for physical reasons, we never "stopped using fingers to paint with. Brushes, pencils and pens...are just an extension of our fingers.



    True, but the point was that we incorporat tools to facilitate more accuracy and options. We don't call eating with utensils finer food despite our fingers being a key part of the procedure.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JavaCowboy View Post


    I don't understand why Apple hasn't yet introduced a multi-touch keyboard/mouse surface as FingerWorks has. For a company that prides itself on innovation, they're being surprisingly conservative. I was surprised that they came out with the Magic Mouse at all, instead of an external trackpad, which would have been more useful considering the usefulness of the MacBook (Pro) trackpad.



    As a geek, I find that the movement from keyboard to mouse/trackpad and back again wastes precious seconds from a day of heavy coding. That's why I've memorized as many keyboard shortcuts as possible, and why IDEs such as Eclipse have introduced so many of them, even for such mouse intensive tasks as switch from the editor to the project view. In my close to 10 year career as a developer, I've probably spent over a solid month switching from keyboard to mouse.



    I'm hoping Apple is working on this, and are just doing their do diligence in resolving the design, ergonomic, and QA issues inherent in such a device.



    As you are aware, real innovation involves making it more useful than before, not simply making it cool. SciFi movies are full of visually appealing concepts that are ultimatly dumb. Most recently Avatar with see-through displays. And people think MBP glare is bad.



    I think a flat touchpad keyboard is a horrible idea with today's tech. I want something my digits can register against when pressed. I want to be able to feel where the keys are when pressed. One day this will likely be resolved but it won't be anytime soon.



    I think Jobs hates having to ship different keyboards for different countries and probably hates that they can't for everyone's needs in one design. We all remember the failed Optimus keyboard. A great idea using OLED keys, but being "ahead of your time" often isn't profitable. You have to strike when the moment is right; in this case that means when the tech is viable. Historically, Apple hasn't been the first of the major HW vendors to market but they're usuly first to make the change across the line.



    I think we're no more than 5 years off from having OLED keys that change as needed. You hold down option and you see all rest of the character pallette. But that isnt the whole palette and that doesn't show you all the various Unicode commands, not to mention user and programming mapping for a wide variety of uses, so I predict when this change comes it will be accompanied by a shift in te keyboard layout. Meaning, for instance, the Option key may be a stickly toggle key that can instantly change the entire keyboardayout each time you press it, instead of just changing to alternate charactes while holding it down.



    (Typed from iPhone, please excuse errors)
  • Reply 116 of 161
    irelandireland Posts: 17,794member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr Underhill View Post


    I think it's brilliant!!



    It's not. Not my opinion. I'll explain way it's terrible. Tracking: Lame ass terrible tracking compared to decent mice. Though to be fair that's more of an OS X problem, but it further demonstrates Apple do not understand the mouse, even if they introduced it to the masses.



    You should not have to explain right click to anyone, ever. And I don't mean explaining why it exists or what it does, but how to click it. Apple call this mouse: "the world's first multi touch mouse". If it has MT then they should have allowed the user to right click without the need to lift their index finger. Another fundamental flaw.



    The Magic Mouse is a simple demonstration of how clueless Apple can actually be sometimes. They think the mouse is "clever", but it's actually stupid. They make the mouse this way because 1: they are over-thinking the mouse, over engineering, and 2: for "looks".



    Apple understands software--for the most part--and they make the best keyboards in the industry. But Apple simply do not get what a mouse should be, and the fact that it should be designed for the human hand. Not some tiny-baby-flat-index-lifting-over-explaining-lame-ass-tracking-alien-hand.
  • Reply 117 of 161
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    True, but the point was that we incorporat tools to facilitate more accuracy and options. We don't call eating with utensils finer food despite our fingers being a key part of the procedure.



    We eat with our mouths. Everything else just helps us get it there.
  • Reply 118 of 161
    str1f3str1f3 Posts: 573member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ArticulatedArm View Post


    I see things the opposite. I actually think the way we have been doing things is what is convoluted. We have just been conditioned to not see that. Think about it.. what I am really describing is really like a modern version of the paper and book. Your tablet is the paper and your primary PC is the book.. only they can both interact with each other. And the paper can even function as a keyboard.



    I believe the hurdle is understanding how to use these things to be most efficient. The way I think of it is your tablet is used for manipulating things hands-on and the primary PC is used for reference images or a wider view etc etc It's really just like dual monitors but on top of each other rather than side by side.



    Also, keep in mind.. Apple has patents for a laptop that has 2 screens so it would be like taking a Apple laptop and putting another screen where the keyboard is.. and you would use this screen as a input device/keyboard. This is the same idea really.



    Good points you made. Now that you mention it, I can see it being beneficial to a headless machine like a Mac Mini or Mac Pro but I wonder how useful it would be on an iMac or the Macbook line.



    The only problem I have is that I would rather have it be an actual computer instead of being reliant on a more powerful machine. My Macbook is my prime machine. I really don't need two devices and I'm sure most feel that way. I'm sure Apple realizes this is the future but they may not view the technology as being "there" yet or maybe they are taking baby steps with the platform.
  • Reply 119 of 161
    Thanks str1f3. I know what you mean about wanting a more powerful machine. I would like that too. But I think this may be just stage 2 of the touch revolution. The next stage is to put touch interfaces on everything including high power laptops and montiors.



    My hope is that even though the tablet won't be the most powerful thing. they can make it so versatile that it makes it worthwhile. I see it as a keyboard from the future.. drawing pad.. media player.. second monitor.. remote control.. custom keyboard for any application... cheap laptop for people that don't really need a high power laptop.



    If you already have a laptop and a desktop and a iPhone I could see how this would seem redundant though even with all the capabilities. There are a lot of people that just have a desktop though. This would be perfect for them.
  • Reply 120 of 161
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    We eat with our mouths. Everything else just helps us get it there.



    And what helps us be pedantic?



    Since you?ve opened up this can of beans the OAD2 defines the verb ?eat' as ?put (food) into the mouth and chew and swallow it." Since that action also refers to the placing of the food into the mouth you can?t say that we only use our mouths to eat.
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