They aren't used as smartphones because they are really glorified high-end feature phones to begin with (which just happens to have an OS that would classified them as smartphones).
Why do so many people here argue about the meanings of words? Is it because they can't just admit an error, and so try to redefine it away? I've been in discussion forums for over a decade, and I've never seen anything like what goes on here.
Does it take into account the number of clueless parents who went out at Christmas and bought non-Apple phones on a budget as presents?
Why do you say choosing a non-Apple phone is clueless?
I suspect many evaluated the plethora of touch-screen, full-keyboard messaging phones being literally given away during the pre-Holiday period and realized there are some very good, very capable alternatives to iPhones - and ones that don't require a full data plan, at that.
We use and love many Apple products, but we selected Samsung Impressions and Flights for our family, and they have so far proven to be excellent, feature-rich and completely hassle-free ... and free through AT&T during December. With Unlimited Texting already in place, these phones were zero cost to upgrade. The internet option is there if we want it; the kids love them.
Paying for iPhones and adding data plans would have been the clueless option, IMO.
Why do so many people here argue about the meanings of words? Is it because they can't just admit an error, and so try to redefine it away? I've been in discussion forums for over a decade, and I've never seen anything like what goes on here.
No, that has nothing to do with it.
There is basically a fundamental difference in what Americans and the rest of the world regard as a smartphone. Americans view the smartphone as an corporate extension of pc-laptop-pda.
A blackberry without a full browser, without a color screen, without the app store, without a million other things... will still be regarded by Americans as a smartphone --- because they are used as a corporate enterprise tool.
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
It's like how courts look at the issue of obscenity --- they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it. The software industy is still dominated by Americans --- and when they look at a Symbian phone, they know it's not a smartphone.
There is basically a fundamental difference in what Americans and the rest of the world regard as a smartphone. Americans view the smartphone as an corporate extension of pc-laptop-pda.
A blackberry without a full browser, without a color screen, without the app store, without a million other things... will still be regarded by Americans as a smartphone --- because they are used as a corporate enterprise tool.
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
It's like how courts look at the issue of obscenity --- they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it. The software industy is still dominated by Americans --- and when they look at a Symbian phone, they know it's not a smartphone.
Well since the USA only makes up 5% of the worlds population, what makes you think that the American defination carries much weight? The cellphone industry isn't dominated by Americans, far from it.
Well since the USA only makes up 5% of the worlds population, what makes you think that the American defination carries much weight? The cellphone industry isn't dominated by Americans, far from it.
Americans carry the only weight that counts --- because the software industry is dominated by the US.
I specifically stated 3G penetration --- which the US (with a population of 300 million) has surpassed Europe's 5 largest countries (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 300 million) in 2008.
Then you look at SMS usage in the US --- which is publicly available information (the carriers will say in their quarterly filings that they carry x billion sms messages in the last 3 months). That's close to 12 sms every single day for every American --- a number that dwarfed European sms usage.
UK is the second largest texters in the world (behind the US) --- guess how many sms do Brits send every single day? Americans send 10 times more sms than the Brits.
So what if they have a couple of cities up in finland and sweden to have LTE. Verizon has LTE up in Boston and Seattle. None are commercialized yet because you can't buy LTE gears yet.
in the US both incoming and outgoing sms are counted. Rest of the world only counted outgoing.
UK has nothing on the Philippines. Maybe you should check your figures.
I know that many Americans would love a CDMA iPhone, but the rest of planet earth is happy with GSM, with multiple carriers in many countries the growth should explode in 2010!
No point making a CDMA phone really, not enough market for it.
LOL your kidding right? Bell has over 25 million customers, Verizon has over 89 million, and sprint has over 40 million. That is about 155 million potential customers in north America alone... not to mention telcel in Mexico is cdma... since when is 155 million people not enough market for a phone?
Hah, you do realise that all Nokia's smartphones use WebKit don't you?!
So does Blackberry, both before the iPhone ever existed, but that doesn't mean it was a good browser, just the underlying browser engine was used. Both are horrible.
So does Blackberry, both before the iPhone ever existed, but that doesn't mean it was a good browser, just the underlying browser engine was used. Both are horrible.
Why do so many people here argue about the meanings of words? Is it because they can't just admit an error, and so try to redefine it away? I've been in discussion forums for over a decade, and I've never seen anything like what goes on here.
Mainly because, once again, there's a lot of cherry picking going on instead of accepting the commonly used meters.
It doesn't change the facts, that the iPhone is high and increasing on the high-end of the market, but it is comical to see that when one day Apple gets a positive news, any critical views of the report are dismissed and downplayed, but when Apple gets a mildly negative piece of news, the critical view of the news and the meters used in it appears to be the only "valid" view.
Americans view the smartphone as an corporate extension of pc-laptop-pda.
A blackberry without a full browser, without a color screen, without the app store, without a million other things... will still be regarded by Americans as a smartphone --- because they are used as a corporate enterprise tool.
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
Now again you are having a very US-centric view where the corporate world uses RIMs almost exclusively. The Samsungs, Ericssons and Nokias are definitely used as an extension to the corporate office environment at least in Europe and Asia. Heck with the Communicator, E-mail was used way before Apple or RIM came to market.
When Orange UK launched the iPhone late last rear they sold 30,000 on the first day, when Vodafone UK launched the iPhone earlier this year they sold 50,000 the first day.
I don't think Apple should be too worried about £99 PAYG phone's.
If they want to grow beyond 15% they would have to be. If they are comfortable being BMW to Nokia's Toyota then that is fine.
But Nokia is flooding the market with smartphones and pushing them to lower and lower price categories. It doesn't matter what your definition of a smartphone is, they meet all the critera. And many of them are touch screens and nearly all are significantly cheaper than anything Apple produces (real prices, not subsidized/contract). You might think that Apple produces a lot of iPods and knows about production, but they have nothing on Nokia.
So if the alternative is a fixed 2 year contract at $60 a month with $200 up front or no contract and $100 for something that performs the same basic function you know what most people will choose. That is why most people drive Toyotas.
Oh, and Nokia just cut about 10% off the price across their entire range.
Now again you are having a very US-centric view where the corporate world uses RIMs almost exclusively. The Samsungs, Ericssons and Nokias are definitely used as an extension to the corporate office environment at least in Europe and Asia. Heck with the Communicator, E-mail was used way before Apple or RIM came to market.
Regs, Jarkko
His extremely US-centric view is why the iPhone was such a big deal in the US. There were no smartphones in the US that were comparable feature wise. The rest of the world were already busy doing more things on their Nokia phones since 2002 and couldn't figure out what all the hype was about in 2007. Of course it was shiny and pretty, but the current pinnacle of technology in the US was Palm and that had of course come from the PDA side.
PDA's were never big in Europe, and whatever ones that were had some from Psion, which was the direct ancestor of the Nokia Communicator (9200 onwards) and S60.
in the US both incoming and outgoing sms are counted. Rest of the world only counted outgoing.
UK has nothing on the Philippines. Maybe you should check your figures.
Even accounting the incoming/outgoing issue, the US figures still dwarf Europe in SMS usage. Philippines has about the same SMS usage as the US, but Philipphines also has vastly smaller voice usage --- something like 30 minutes a month (comparing close to 800 incoming/outgoing voice minutes per month in the US). Philipphine people can't afford voice minutes, so they are forced to use SMS. Americans can afford to talk all day long and still rack up those skyhigh SMS usage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
Some people might read that as being a little bit elitist
It's not about elitist or not. This is about software. No point of having a smartphone if there are no software to run it on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jahonen
Now again you are having a very US-centric view where the corporate world uses RIMs almost exclusively. The Samsungs, Ericssons and Nokias are definitely used as an extension to the corporate office environment at least in Europe and Asia. Heck with the Communicator, E-mail was used way before Apple or RIM came to market.
Regs, Jarkko
Not to the extent of corporate usage in the US where American companies would fire a bunch of their secretaries and backoffice staff and really rely on blackberries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning
His extremely US-centric view is why the iPhone was such a big deal in the US. There were no smartphones in the US that were comparable feature wise. The rest of the world were already busy doing more things on their Nokia phones since 2002 and couldn't figure out what all the hype was about in 2007. Of course it was shiny and pretty, but the current pinnacle of technology in the US was Palm and that had of course come from the PDA side.
PDA's were never big in Europe, and whatever ones that were had some from Psion, which was the direct ancestor of the Nokia Communicator (9200 onwards) and S60.
How is the iphone a big deal --- they are a distant second to the blackberry in north america, carriers are not fighting each other to get the iphone exclusivity...
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
It's like how courts look at the issue of obscenity --- they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it. The software industy is still dominated by Americans --- and when they look at a Symbian phone, they know it's not a smartphone.
Americans don't understand soccer. That doesn't stop it being the world's most popular sport.
Everyone in the industry agrees that Symbian is a smartphone OS. American ignorance does not change that fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
They are just as good as the iPhone browser.
I disagree that the S60 browser is as good as the iPhone browser. It renders pages more accurately but the usability isn't as good.
Even accounting the incoming/outgoing issue, the US figures still dwarf Europe in SMS usage. Philippines has about the same SMS usage as the US, but Philipphines also has vastly smaller voice usage --- something like 30 minutes a month (comparing close to 800 incoming/outgoing voice minutes per month in the US). Philipphine people can't afford voice minutes, so they are forced to use SMS. Americans can afford to talk all day long and still rack up those skyhigh SMS usage.
Philippines send about 3x as many messages per day as in the US. US figures do not "dwarf" Europe (or UK), they are just slightly ahead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samab
How is the iphone a big deal --- they are a distant second to the blackberry in north america, carriers are not fighting each other to get the iphone exclusivity...
The iPhone was a big deal in the US. Not from the corporate point of view, which was basically what RIM was at the time. But to consumers, who in the US didn't use smartphones at all. In Europe it was a "meh" moment. Since 2007 RIM has significantly expanded into the consumer market as well which shows in their significant market share increase.
Comments
They aren't used as smartphones because they are really glorified high-end feature phones to begin with (which just happens to have an OS that would classified them as smartphones).
Why do so many people here argue about the meanings of words? Is it because they can't just admit an error, and so try to redefine it away? I've been in discussion forums for over a decade, and I've never seen anything like what goes on here.
Seriously?
This article misses a possible huge factor.
Does it take into account the number of clueless parents who went out at Christmas and bought non-Apple phones on a budget as presents?
Why do you say choosing a non-Apple phone is clueless?
I suspect many evaluated the plethora of touch-screen, full-keyboard messaging phones being literally given away during the pre-Holiday period and realized there are some very good, very capable alternatives to iPhones - and ones that don't require a full data plan, at that.
We use and love many Apple products, but we selected Samsung Impressions and Flights for our family, and they have so far proven to be excellent, feature-rich and completely hassle-free ... and free through AT&T during December. With Unlimited Texting already in place, these phones were zero cost to upgrade. The internet option is there if we want it; the kids love them.
Paying for iPhones and adding data plans would have been the clueless option, IMO.
No, S40 is capable of installing Java applications which run in a JVM but not OS specific programs like an S60 device can.
Thus it is not classed as a smartphone.
Why don't you read things in context?
great thing about the web, you can get your facts straight.
But what is your point?
Why do so many people here argue about the meanings of words? Is it because they can't just admit an error, and so try to redefine it away? I've been in discussion forums for over a decade, and I've never seen anything like what goes on here.
No, that has nothing to do with it.
There is basically a fundamental difference in what Americans and the rest of the world regard as a smartphone. Americans view the smartphone as an corporate extension of pc-laptop-pda.
A blackberry without a full browser, without a color screen, without the app store, without a million other things... will still be regarded by Americans as a smartphone --- because they are used as a corporate enterprise tool.
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
It's like how courts look at the issue of obscenity --- they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it. The software industy is still dominated by Americans --- and when they look at a Symbian phone, they know it's not a smartphone.
No, that has nothing to do with it.
There is basically a fundamental difference in what Americans and the rest of the world regard as a smartphone. Americans view the smartphone as an corporate extension of pc-laptop-pda.
A blackberry without a full browser, without a color screen, without the app store, without a million other things... will still be regarded by Americans as a smartphone --- because they are used as a corporate enterprise tool.
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
It's like how courts look at the issue of obscenity --- they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it. The software industy is still dominated by Americans --- and when they look at a Symbian phone, they know it's not a smartphone.
Well since the USA only makes up 5% of the worlds population, what makes you think that the American defination carries much weight? The cellphone industry isn't dominated by Americans, far from it.
Well since the USA only makes up 5% of the worlds population, what makes you think that the American defination carries much weight? The cellphone industry isn't dominated by Americans, far from it.
Americans carry the only weight that counts --- because the software industry is dominated by the US.
so i added the definition - runs a full web browser. that knocks out nearly all Nokia phones, many Blackberries, and most WinMo's.
Hah, you do realise that all Nokia's smartphones use WebKit don't you?!
I specifically stated 3G penetration --- which the US (with a population of 300 million) has surpassed Europe's 5 largest countries (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 300 million) in 2008.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090400776.html
Then you look at SMS usage in the US --- which is publicly available information (the carriers will say in their quarterly filings that they carry x billion sms messages in the last 3 months). That's close to 12 sms every single day for every American --- a number that dwarfed European sms usage.
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/57781
UK is the second largest texters in the world (behind the US) --- guess how many sms do Brits send every single day? Americans send 10 times more sms than the Brits.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consumer/200...ommunications/
So what if they have a couple of cities up in finland and sweden to have LTE. Verizon has LTE up in Boston and Seattle. None are commercialized yet because you can't buy LTE gears yet.
in the US both incoming and outgoing sms are counted. Rest of the world only counted outgoing.
UK has nothing on the Philippines. Maybe you should check your figures.
I know that many Americans would love a CDMA iPhone, but the rest of planet earth is happy with GSM, with multiple carriers in many countries the growth should explode in 2010!
No point making a CDMA phone really, not enough market for it.
LOL your kidding right? Bell has over 25 million customers, Verizon has over 89 million, and sprint has over 40 million. That is about 155 million potential customers in north America alone... not to mention telcel in Mexico is cdma... since when is 155 million people not enough market for a phone?
Hah, you do realise that all Nokia's smartphones use WebKit don't you?!
So does Blackberry, both before the iPhone ever existed, but that doesn't mean it was a good browser, just the underlying browser engine was used. Both are horrible.
Americans carry the only weight that counts --- because the software industry is dominated by the US.
Some people might read that as being a little bit elitist
So does Blackberry, both before the iPhone ever existed, but that doesn't mean it was a good browser, just the underlying browser engine was used. Both are horrible.
They are just as good as the iPhone browser.
Why do so many people here argue about the meanings of words? Is it because they can't just admit an error, and so try to redefine it away? I've been in discussion forums for over a decade, and I've never seen anything like what goes on here.
Mainly because, once again, there's a lot of cherry picking going on instead of accepting the commonly used meters.
It doesn't change the facts, that the iPhone is high and increasing on the high-end of the market, but it is comical to see that when one day Apple gets a positive news, any critical views of the report are dismissed and downplayed, but when Apple gets a mildly negative piece of news, the critical view of the news and the meters used in it appears to be the only "valid" view.
Regs, Jarkko
Americans view the smartphone as an corporate extension of pc-laptop-pda.
A blackberry without a full browser, without a color screen, without the app store, without a million other things... will still be regarded by Americans as a smartphone --- because they are used as a corporate enterprise tool.
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
Now again you are having a very US-centric view where the corporate world uses RIMs almost exclusively. The Samsungs, Ericssons and Nokias are definitely used as an extension to the corporate office environment at least in Europe and Asia. Heck with the Communicator, E-mail was used way before Apple or RIM came to market.
Regs, Jarkko
When Orange UK launched the iPhone late last rear they sold 30,000 on the first day, when Vodafone UK launched the iPhone earlier this year they sold 50,000 the first day.
I don't think Apple should be too worried about £99 PAYG phone's.
If they want to grow beyond 15% they would have to be. If they are comfortable being BMW to Nokia's Toyota then that is fine.
But Nokia is flooding the market with smartphones and pushing them to lower and lower price categories. It doesn't matter what your definition of a smartphone is, they meet all the critera. And many of them are touch screens and nearly all are significantly cheaper than anything Apple produces (real prices, not subsidized/contract). You might think that Apple produces a lot of iPods and knows about production, but they have nothing on Nokia.
So if the alternative is a fixed 2 year contract at $60 a month with $200 up front or no contract and $100 for something that performs the same basic function you know what most people will choose. That is why most people drive Toyotas.
Oh, and Nokia just cut about 10% off the price across their entire range.
Now again you are having a very US-centric view where the corporate world uses RIMs almost exclusively. The Samsungs, Ericssons and Nokias are definitely used as an extension to the corporate office environment at least in Europe and Asia. Heck with the Communicator, E-mail was used way before Apple or RIM came to market.
Regs, Jarkko
His extremely US-centric view is why the iPhone was such a big deal in the US. There were no smartphones in the US that were comparable feature wise. The rest of the world were already busy doing more things on their Nokia phones since 2002 and couldn't figure out what all the hype was about in 2007. Of course it was shiny and pretty, but the current pinnacle of technology in the US was Palm and that had of course come from the PDA side.
PDA's were never big in Europe, and whatever ones that were had some from Psion, which was the direct ancestor of the Nokia Communicator (9200 onwards) and S60.
in the US both incoming and outgoing sms are counted. Rest of the world only counted outgoing.
UK has nothing on the Philippines. Maybe you should check your figures.
Even accounting the incoming/outgoing issue, the US figures still dwarf Europe in SMS usage. Philippines has about the same SMS usage as the US, but Philipphines also has vastly smaller voice usage --- something like 30 minutes a month (comparing close to 800 incoming/outgoing voice minutes per month in the US). Philipphine people can't afford voice minutes, so they are forced to use SMS. Americans can afford to talk all day long and still rack up those skyhigh SMS usage.
Some people might read that as being a little bit elitist
It's not about elitist or not. This is about software. No point of having a smartphone if there are no software to run it on.
Now again you are having a very US-centric view where the corporate world uses RIMs almost exclusively. The Samsungs, Ericssons and Nokias are definitely used as an extension to the corporate office environment at least in Europe and Asia. Heck with the Communicator, E-mail was used way before Apple or RIM came to market.
Regs, Jarkko
Not to the extent of corporate usage in the US where American companies would fire a bunch of their secretaries and backoffice staff and really rely on blackberries.
His extremely US-centric view is why the iPhone was such a big deal in the US. There were no smartphones in the US that were comparable feature wise. The rest of the world were already busy doing more things on their Nokia phones since 2002 and couldn't figure out what all the hype was about in 2007. Of course it was shiny and pretty, but the current pinnacle of technology in the US was Palm and that had of course come from the PDA side.
PDA's were never big in Europe, and whatever ones that were had some from Psion, which was the direct ancestor of the Nokia Communicator (9200 onwards) and S60.
How is the iphone a big deal --- they are a distant second to the blackberry in north america, carriers are not fighting each other to get the iphone exclusivity...
A top of the line Nokia smartphone, with a million features --- will still be regarded by Americans as a feature phone --- because big companies don't use them.
It's like how courts look at the issue of obscenity --- they can't describe it, but they know it when they see it. The software industy is still dominated by Americans --- and when they look at a Symbian phone, they know it's not a smartphone.
Americans don't understand soccer. That doesn't stop it being the world's most popular sport.
Everyone in the industry agrees that Symbian is a smartphone OS. American ignorance does not change that fact.
They are just as good as the iPhone browser.
I disagree that the S60 browser is as good as the iPhone browser. It renders pages more accurately but the usability isn't as good.
Even accounting the incoming/outgoing issue, the US figures still dwarf Europe in SMS usage. Philippines has about the same SMS usage as the US, but Philipphines also has vastly smaller voice usage --- something like 30 minutes a month (comparing close to 800 incoming/outgoing voice minutes per month in the US). Philipphine people can't afford voice minutes, so they are forced to use SMS. Americans can afford to talk all day long and still rack up those skyhigh SMS usage.
Maybe you should read this. http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives...comment-184697
Philippines send about 3x as many messages per day as in the US. US figures do not "dwarf" Europe (or UK), they are just slightly ahead.
How is the iphone a big deal --- they are a distant second to the blackberry in north america, carriers are not fighting each other to get the iphone exclusivity...
The iPhone was a big deal in the US. Not from the corporate point of view, which was basically what RIM was at the time. But to consumers, who in the US didn't use smartphones at all. In Europe it was a "meh" moment. Since 2007 RIM has significantly expanded into the consumer market as well which shows in their significant market share increase.