You have been assimilated agent302. There are absolutes in this world. It is immoral and wrong to have sex with a child. For example.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Have I? I wasn't aware of a Borg cube anywhere near here. And, while in our society it is considered immoral to have sex with someone younger, that's not necessarily the case in all societies. In Greek society, for example, one of the ideal relationships was a 30ish male and a teenage boy (both homosexual and pedophilic). I'm not saying that I agree with what I just suggested. I don't. But it's important to recognize that morality is merely a social construction to prevent absolute chaos. In general, morality is beneficial to people because, if we all went around killing each other, society wouldn't progress at all.
To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.
Have I? I wasn't aware of a Borg cube anywhere near here. And, while in our society it is considered immoral to have sex with someone younger, that's not necessarily the case in all societies. In Greek society, for example, one of the ideal relationships was a 30ish male and a teenage boy (both homosexual and pedophilic). I'm not saying that I agree with what I just suggested. I don't. But it's important to recognize that morality is merely a social construction to prevent absolute chaos. In general, morality is beneficial to people because, if we all went around killing each other, society wouldn't progress at all.
To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. It was wrong for those older men to rape those younger boys. It is wrong. Get it? Some things are wrong. It's true.
No. It was wrong for those older men to rape those younger boys. It is wrong. Get it? Some things are wrong. It's true.</strong><hr></blockquote>
By whose standards? Yours, not theirs. Get it out of your head that you set the standard for everyone's action. We are all autonomous beings, we all make our own decisions.
sounds lie it would be pretty wrong if it happened. Strange, though, that Plato and Socrates and their peers had sex with younger men almost boys and nobody gets all up in arms about it.
As for this class, sounds like the "orgy" was a bad idea, but the genital photos is just funny.
Sex is fine and good and many people have a very real dificult time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Classes like this can be a good thing when done right. Just sounds like there was a bad professor or two . . . . ad sounds like the source funnelling all the info has a very anti-sex, anti-body agenda.
as for the sex in terrorism class: her anti US stuff is probably the usual reactionary crap. But, it is clear that with the violent form of terrorism that we have seen recently, that there is some deep seated psycho-sexual stuff at the root: its not just a coincedence that the surrounding culture of the Taliban had women practically as slaves and were afraid to death of them, afraid of"dirty pergnant" women.
So a class that is open to sexuallity might actually release terroristic tendencies in us all
sounds lie it would be pretty wrong if it happened. Strange, though, that Plato and Socrates and their peers had sex with younger men almost boys and nobody gets all up in arms about it.
As for this class, sounds like the "orgy" was a bad idea, but the genital photos is just funny.
Sex is fine and good and many people have a very real dificult time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Classes like this can be a good thing when done right. Just sounds like there was a bad professor or two . . . . ad sounds like the source funnelling all the info has a very anti-sex, anti-body agenda.
as for the sex in terrorism class: her anti US stuff is probably the usual reactionary crap. But, it is clear that with the violent form of terrorism that we have seen recently, that there is some deep seated psycho-sexual stuff at the root: its not just a coincedence that the surrounding culture of the Taliban had women practically as slaves and were afraid to death of them, afraid of"dirty pergnant" women.
So a class that is open to sexuallity might actually release terroristic tendencies in us all </strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you! Finally, someone thinks before they post.
I might say the same for you. If accepting rape as being "okay for them" means I have to be "original" I'm happy to be unoriginal.
Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your blatant and callous use of the word rape misses the point of what I am saying. While our society (myself included) is horrified by child molestation, teenage-adult relationships were a norm in ancient Greece. That doesn't make them wrong to their society. Societies change, so do moral claims.
Remember. No things are absolute. Not even science.
Oh well see it's all relative. It may be okay for your to butt **** a 2 year old and that may be wrong for me. In China it's common to turn 13 year old girls into sex slaves. But that's their culture. So it's okay for them. In Russia kiddy porn is all the rage.
<strong>Oh well see it's all relative. It may be okay for your to butt **** a 2 year old and that may be wrong for me. In China it's common to turn 13 year old girls into sex slaves. But that's their culture. So it's okay for them. In Russia kiddy porn is all the rage.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How many times can you read something and not get the point?
<strong><What he edited out>Well, given your jargon, do you rape your wife at night?</what he edited out>
Your blatant and callous use of the word rape misses the point of what I am saying. While our society (myself included) is horrified by child molestation, teenage-adult relationships were a norm in ancient Greece. That doesn't make them wrong to their society. Societies change, so do moral claims.
Remember. No things are absolute. Not even science.
Agent302, what you seem to be missing here is that just because a society says that things are ok, does not make them OK. Was it OK for the Romans to throw the Christians to the Lions and then watch it like a sport? Was it ok for the south to own slaves? Was the Final Solution ok? Where is te line drawn? (I intentionally drew this closer to home to see where you draw the line) Your argument is total BS. All of these things were accepted as ok by those performing them. Some were not socially accepted, but in their society it was ok. Just because the Greeks are the NAMBLA poster child does not mean it is or even was ok.
Then to try to draw somebodys wife into it and take a consentual relationship between tow adults and try to turn it into rape is horrible. It seems that you have been assimilated. You sound just like the feminist agenda.
<strong>Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK Scott - can you prove this? Can you prove what is wrong and what isn't? Where do the morals come from? I have my own ideas about this, but I'm curious where you think they come from.
<strong>To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said no such thing. I said it should make you proud to have your children attending there if you beleive morals are relative, which you ost certainly do.
Berkeley is a wonderful place to learn if you don't get all caught up in the hippie culture that thrives there. And as for any good things that came out of that class, if I taught math and I was able to make anyone understand basic math priciples and learn how to do long multiplication in their heads but I taught that 2+2=5 and 2x2=6 but I was consistant about it. They would get the "right" answer consistantly. Does that make my class good? Doesn't stand up in the real worl. In my opinion any good that may have been done in the class on paper is destroyed by the teacher taking the class on a field trip to watch him have sex with a woman and to participate in an orgy. (Extra credit, anyone want to go? *entire class with raging hormines* YEAH!!!) Who is to say what they even really taught in this class. Just because the syllabus says that was what was taught does not mean it was. His entire course is suspect to me. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I said no such thing. I said it should make you proud to have your children attending there if you beleive morals are relative, which you ost certainly do.
Berkeley is a wonderful place to learn if you don't get all caught up in the hippie culture that thrives there. And as for any good things that came out of that class, if I taught math and I was able to make anyone understand basic math priciples and learn how to do long multiplication in their heads but I taught that 2+2=5 and 2x2=6 but I was consistant about it. They would get the "right" answer consistantly. Does that make my class good? Doesn't stand up in the real worl. In my opinion any good that may have been done in the class on paper is destroyed by the teacher taking the class on a field trip to watch him have sex with a woman and to participate in an orgy. (Extra credit, anyone want to go? *entire class with raging hormines* YEAH!!!) Who is to say what they even really taught in this class. Just because the syllabus says that was what was taught does not mean it was. His entire course is suspect to me. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
1. There is really no "hippy culture" in Berkeley. It's a grouping of college students, and is fairly liberal, as most colleges are.
2. I didn't quote the syllabus. I quoted the same anecdotal students comments that you did. The classroom part of the class has a lot of real world applicability.
3. Just because I say morals are relative doesn't mean I don't have any.
4. What have I been assimilated into?
5. I edited my earlier post because I realized the inappropriateness of what I said. I'm just annoyed by people who are afraid to question the underlying assumptions.
Comments
[quote] NoahJ, morals are all relative. <hr></blockquote>
So I can kill you?
<strong>NoahJ, morals are all relative. That's why we try to not let the government legislate morality.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have been assimilated agent302. There are absolutes in this world. It is immoral and wrong to have sex with a child. For example.
<strong>
You have been assimilated agent302. There are absolutes in this world. It is immoral and wrong to have sex with a child. For example.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Have I? I wasn't aware of a Borg cube anywhere near here. And, while in our society it is considered immoral to have sex with someone younger, that's not necessarily the case in all societies. In Greek society, for example, one of the ideal relationships was a 30ish male and a teenage boy (both homosexual and pedophilic). I'm not saying that I agree with what I just suggested. I don't. But it's important to recognize that morality is merely a social construction to prevent absolute chaos. In general, morality is beneficial to people because, if we all went around killing each other, society wouldn't progress at all.
To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.
<strong>
Have I? I wasn't aware of a Borg cube anywhere near here. And, while in our society it is considered immoral to have sex with someone younger, that's not necessarily the case in all societies. In Greek society, for example, one of the ideal relationships was a 30ish male and a teenage boy (both homosexual and pedophilic). I'm not saying that I agree with what I just suggested. I don't. But it's important to recognize that morality is merely a social construction to prevent absolute chaos. In general, morality is beneficial to people because, if we all went around killing each other, society wouldn't progress at all.
To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. It was wrong for those older men to rape those younger boys. It is wrong. Get it? Some things are wrong. It's true.
<strong>
No. It was wrong for those older men to rape those younger boys. It is wrong. Get it? Some things are wrong. It's true.</strong><hr></blockquote>
By whose standards? Yours, not theirs. Get it out of your head that you set the standard for everyone's action. We are all autonomous beings, we all make our own decisions.
huh?
sounds lie it would be pretty wrong if it happened. Strange, though, that Plato and Socrates and their peers had sex with younger men almost boys and nobody gets all up in arms about it.
As for this class, sounds like the "orgy" was a bad idea, but the genital photos is just funny.
Sex is fine and good and many people have a very real dificult time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Classes like this can be a good thing when done right. Just sounds like there was a bad professor or two . . . . ad sounds like the source funnelling all the info has a very anti-sex, anti-body agenda.
as for the sex in terrorism class: her anti US stuff is probably the usual reactionary crap. But, it is clear that with the violent form of terrorism that we have seen recently, that there is some deep seated psycho-sexual stuff at the root: its not just a coincedence that the surrounding culture of the Taliban had women practically as slaves and were afraid to death of them, afraid of"dirty pergnant" women.
So a class that is open to sexuallity might actually release terroristic tendencies in us all
<strong>Older men? younger boys? rape?
huh?
sounds lie it would be pretty wrong if it happened. Strange, though, that Plato and Socrates and their peers had sex with younger men almost boys and nobody gets all up in arms about it.
As for this class, sounds like the "orgy" was a bad idea, but the genital photos is just funny.
Sex is fine and good and many people have a very real dificult time coming to terms with their own sexuality. Classes like this can be a good thing when done right. Just sounds like there was a bad professor or two . . . . ad sounds like the source funnelling all the info has a very anti-sex, anti-body agenda.
as for the sex in terrorism class: her anti US stuff is probably the usual reactionary crap. But, it is clear that with the violent form of terrorism that we have seen recently, that there is some deep seated psycho-sexual stuff at the root: its not just a coincedence that the surrounding culture of the Taliban had women practically as slaves and were afraid to death of them, afraid of"dirty pergnant" women.
So a class that is open to sexuallity might actually release terroristic tendencies in us all </strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you! Finally, someone thinks before they post.
<strong>I see your point. The next time a see a boy being raped I'll tell him that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I give up. You're a ****ing idiot who apparently can't read or make an original thought.
[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</p>
<strong>
I give up. You're a ****ing idiot who apparently can't read or make an original thought.
[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I might say the same for you. If accepting rape as being "okay for them" means I have to be "original" I'm happy to be unoriginal.
Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.
<strong>
I might say the same for you. If accepting rape as being "okay for them" means I have to be "original" I'm happy to be unoriginal.
Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your blatant and callous use of the word rape misses the point of what I am saying. While our society (myself included) is horrified by child molestation, teenage-adult relationships were a norm in ancient Greece. That doesn't make them wrong to their society. Societies change, so do moral claims.
Remember. No things are absolute. Not even science.
[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</p>
<strong>No. Because 1) She's no under age and 2) she consents after much nagging.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And what is age but an arbitrary measure of time?
<strong>Oh well see it's all relative. It may be okay for your to butt **** a 2 year old and that may be wrong for me. In China it's common to turn 13 year old girls into sex slaves. But that's their culture. So it's okay for them. In Russia kiddy porn is all the rage.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How many times can you read something and not get the point?
<strong><What he edited out>Well, given your jargon, do you rape your wife at night?</what he edited out>
Your blatant and callous use of the word rape misses the point of what I am saying. While our society (myself included) is horrified by child molestation, teenage-adult relationships were a norm in ancient Greece. That doesn't make them wrong to their society. Societies change, so do moral claims.
Remember. No things are absolute. Not even science.
[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agent302, what you seem to be missing here is that just because a society says that things are ok, does not make them OK. Was it OK for the Romans to throw the Christians to the Lions and then watch it like a sport? Was it ok for the south to own slaves? Was the Final Solution ok? Where is te line drawn? (I intentionally drew this closer to home to see where you draw the line) Your argument is total BS. All of these things were accepted as ok by those performing them. Some were not socially accepted, but in their society it was ok. Just because the Greeks are the NAMBLA poster child does not mean it is or even was ok.
Then to try to draw somebodys wife into it and take a consentual relationship between tow adults and try to turn it into rape is horrible. It seems that you have been assimilated. You sound just like the feminist agenda.
<strong>
How many times can you read something and not get the point?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha ha ha you are too funny. You keep saying I don't get your point and I would say it's you that doesn't get mine. I think I'm correct though.
Some things are wrong agent302.
<strong>Remember. Some things are wrong. Not matter who or where or at what time. It's wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK Scott - can you prove this? Can you prove what is wrong and what isn't? Where do the morals come from? I have my own ideas about this, but I'm curious where you think they come from.
<strong>To repeat my original statement: NoahJ's claim that this article represents a reason to not attend Berkeley (or any college that offers a human sexuality class) is absurd. As I mentioned before, the in class activities mentioned seem very productive (read the quotations I listed above). The out-of-class activities go against my personal moral framework, but the class itself is not a completely immoral activity.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said no such thing. I said it should make you proud to have your children attending there if you beleive morals are relative, which you ost certainly do.
Berkeley is a wonderful place to learn if you don't get all caught up in the hippie culture that thrives there. And as for any good things that came out of that class, if I taught math and I was able to make anyone understand basic math priciples and learn how to do long multiplication in their heads but I taught that 2+2=5 and 2x2=6 but I was consistant about it. They would get the "right" answer consistantly. Does that make my class good? Doesn't stand up in the real worl. In my opinion any good that may have been done in the class on paper is destroyed by the teacher taking the class on a field trip to watch him have sex with a woman and to participate in an orgy. (Extra credit, anyone want to go? *entire class with raging hormines* YEAH!!!) Who is to say what they even really taught in this class. Just because the syllabus says that was what was taught does not mean it was. His entire course is suspect to me. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>
I said no such thing. I said it should make you proud to have your children attending there if you beleive morals are relative, which you ost certainly do.
Berkeley is a wonderful place to learn if you don't get all caught up in the hippie culture that thrives there. And as for any good things that came out of that class, if I taught math and I was able to make anyone understand basic math priciples and learn how to do long multiplication in their heads but I taught that 2+2=5 and 2x2=6 but I was consistant about it. They would get the "right" answer consistantly. Does that make my class good? Doesn't stand up in the real worl. In my opinion any good that may have been done in the class on paper is destroyed by the teacher taking the class on a field trip to watch him have sex with a woman and to participate in an orgy. (Extra credit, anyone want to go? *entire class with raging hormines* YEAH!!!) Who is to say what they even really taught in this class. Just because the syllabus says that was what was taught does not mean it was. His entire course is suspect to me. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
1. There is really no "hippy culture" in Berkeley. It's a grouping of college students, and is fairly liberal, as most colleges are.
2. I didn't quote the syllabus. I quoted the same anecdotal students comments that you did. The classroom part of the class has a lot of real world applicability.
3. Just because I say morals are relative doesn't mean I don't have any.
4. What have I been assimilated into?
5. I edited my earlier post because I realized the inappropriateness of what I said. I'm just annoyed by people who are afraid to question the underlying assumptions.