And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
[CENTER]"Soneira said eyeballing the screens isn't enough."
Hmmm? For those who actually used their device/smartphone displays... Viewing the most pleasant looking display of Information/Media is certainly the most important criteria.[/CENTER]
And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
That's a pretty big thing that affects the user experience. Are you claiming that all the images you view are at their native resolution!?
You an say what you want, but the banding is extremely ugly. It is one example of either poor planning or poor implementation by Google/HTC. Apple is known for attention to detail.
Even if the iPhone screen is better it would be due to software, not hardware. Therefore "iPhone LCD trumps Nexus One OLED is an inaccurate statement, the test was limited by software, not hardware.
Exactly the point I was trying to get across. Some people are quick to dismiss OLED as inferior, but it seems that its the current display software thats inferior, not the screens themselves.
That's a pretty big thing that affects the user experience. Are you claiming that all the images you view are at their native resolution!?
You an say what you want, but the banding is extremely ugly. It is one example of either poor planning or poor implementation by Google/HTC. Apple is known for attention to detail.
No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.
And yes, Apples is know for attention to detail, but are you saying that since firmware 1.0 they have been flawless and without a bug? I don't think so.
No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.
...
Who is the "they" who said that "it is a hardware fault and flaw in OLED technology"? It wasn't the tester, Dr. Soneira. He clearly stated due to the Nexus PenTile pixel arrangement, "... in practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images." And then following in red text,
Quote:
Note that we are testing and evaluating the display on the Nexus One with whatever hardware, firmware, OS and software are provided by Google and HTC. On-screen image and picture quality issues can arise in any one or more of these component layers.
Who is the "they" who said that "it is a hardware fault and flaw in OLED technology"? It wasn't the tester, Dr. Soneira. He clearly (and in red text) stated,
This text wasn't there yesterday
Here is blaming the technology and, he is wrong, the technology doesn't make any artifacts
"Another unusual aspect of the Nexus One display is that it uses a PenTile pixel arrangement, where there are only two sub-pixels per pixel instead of the usual three, Red, Green and Blue, that are used in most display technologies. Every PenTile pixel includes a Green sub-pixel, but the Red and Blue sub-pixels appear in alternating pixels. In principle, that is only a minor issue because if Red or Blue isn?t available in a particular pixel, then the display driver can just use one from an adjacent pixel. But In practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images."
It seems very common nowadays that people must confess that they own apple products so they deserve the rights to complain apple.
Come on, if you think iPhone pales to N1, don't have to say you own 4 iPhones.
Actually, it's valid to point out that I have four iPhones when comparing the Nexus One to iPhones. It shows at least a couple things that add credibility to my opinion:
1) I am a long time owner of iPhones, and therefore a "fan" of the product over the years, and
2) I actually have iPhones in my possession to sit side-by-side with the Nexus One to make real time comparisons of the two products.
Contrast this to those fanboys who have never even seen an N1, or those who have only played with one for a few minutes that a friend owns. With the story in question here, I pulled up the test pictures on both devices and saw the result for myself. How many others slamming the N1 in this thread have done that?
Additionally, in may of these Apple-oriented forums, it's not uncommon for trolls to come along and "diss" the Apple product just to be a jerk. Pointing out your fondness/ownership of the Apple products generally wards off accusations of being one of those trolls.
Here is blaming the technology and, he is wrong, the technology doesn't make any artifacts
"Another unusual aspect of the Nexus One display is that it uses a PenTile pixel arrangement, where there are only two sub-pixels per pixel instead of the usual three, Red, Green and Blue, that are used in most display technologies. Every PenTile pixel includes a Green sub-pixel, but the Red and Blue sub-pixels appear in alternating pixels. In principle, that is only a minor issue because if Red or Blue isn?t available in a particular pixel, then the display driver can just use one from an adjacent pixel. But In practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images."
Yes, I believe you're correct about the addition and highlighting of the text. I think he expanded on his original text, "... some of this is undoubtedly due to poor integration of the display hardware with the Android OS and software. Much of it, however, is simply due to very poor factory calibration and quality control."
In your second paragraph you quote, Dr. Soneira uses the words "minor issue" and "makes things a lot harder ..." Is this what you interpret as him asserting technology "blame" and "fault"?
I'm unfamiliar with the technology being discussed and am not trying to be contrary, but after reading and re-reading, the descriptions/criticisms come across more as hyperbole to further personal agendas and points-of-view that may put words in others' mouths. I believe words have both literal and implied meaning and I'm just attempting to calibrate.
I think this whole article is ridiculous even if it were all true.
I own an iphone but also had an old Trekstor mp3 player with an oled screen, which could only display blue, orange and black in a low pixel density. Still if I could choose between an iphone with only black and white OLED and the current one I'd take the OLED. OLED is simply outstanding in contrast ratios and looks simply awesome compared to a standard washed out LCD. Especially in total darkness and also outside.
I personally think that the iphone LCD still sucks as a picture viewer and could be a lot better with a little more pixels and contrast. It is okay but only in the sense as there is nothing better, which means it is still far from good. If I want a picture viewer I need something to hook the thing easily up to a TV or display and need neither an iphone nor a Nexus nor any other such smartphone.
Yes he is incompentent, he is saying that Nexus One only uses 16 bit color so it has banding and a poor pictures quality. If he had opened the same images on the browser or on other pitcure viewers he had noticed that there is no banding and a superb quality picture.
All the results about picture quality, lower display technology are totally wrong.
And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
Response from Dr. Soneira, author of the article:
Quote:
On Feb 23, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Raymond Soneira wrote:
Thanks for your two Emails... I normally don't participate in forum discussions because they often seem to be dominated by baseless and obnoxious flaming remarks. Please post this one-time reply for me...
1. The test pattern tests were done with test patterns generated at the exact native 800x480 resolution of the Nexus One and the exact native 480x320 resolution of the iPhone so that scaling was not an issue for them. The RGBW intensity ramps in Figure 1 are 24-bit bmp 800x480 for the Nexus One and 480x320 for the iPhone. This is clearly stated in a couple of places in the article, so the remarks you sent are from someone who either didn't read or understand the article.
2. The quality of the image scaling is very relevant and very important because 99% of the images displayed by the Nexus One and iPhone have to be rescaled to fit the native resolution of the display. The Nexus One does a very poor job of it. That's a major issue and a major problem. Since scaling is done in software it can be fixed, but it still needs fixing! That level of crudeness doesn't belong in a shipping product.
3. The native resolution test patterns in Figure 1 clearly and definitely show that the Nexus One is using a 16-bit display interface. It shouldn't have one, it shouldn't be there. The browser is a complex multi-layered piece of software and for that reason is a bad place to test and analyze the display, which is what I am doing in the article. I am reviewing the display system, not the browser. There are many possible reasons why false contouring doesn't show up in the browser - it's most likely doing its own rescaling and dithering. Once again, I am not testing the browser, I am testing the display system, and the display system has a 16-bit interface and that is shocking!
4. All of the above issues can presumably be fixed in software. The factory calibration issues that are discussed in Part Ib on Wednesday most likely cannot...
I wonder how the Samsung Wave would fare, compared next to an iPhone?
The top one is a Samsung Wave and the bottom one is a Nexus One.
I think Samsung make the colours a bit too punchy and should include user adjustable settings for contrast and saturation. But that said, I will bet 99 people out of 100 would prefer the Wave display over the iPhone.
I apologize for not have reading the part about resolution but Dr. Soneira is still wrong about the 16bit output, the image just above my post can prove that it outputs 24bits.
And the part about the browser having different scaling is shocking, if you have a 16bit display, you can make different scalings and different ditherings, you still have a 16bit output and is no way you can show the RGB example without banding.
And in Camera application, 3rd party pictures viewers and Browser you can view the examples used like the iPhones ones, without banding and showing that its output it's 24bit.
I don't know why Dr. Soneira can agree with that and say what he is saying.
No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.
And yes, Apples is know for attention to detail, but are you saying that since firmware 1.0 they have been flawless and without a bug? I don't think so.
please read the following from the article "As for the current standard-bearer in mobile phone displays, Soneira said he would guess that title goes to the Motorola Droid. While he hasn't done any thorough tests, he said in his educated opinion Motorola's Android-powered handset, which has a 3.7-inch screen, is the leader."
hence an alternative title would also be valid: "Motorola Droid LCD trumps iPhone LCD"
Comments
I hope you don't mind; I sent your response to Dr. Soneira requesting his response for clarification.
Better send this link: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=637063
And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
Hmmm? For those who actually used their device/smartphone displays... Viewing the most pleasant looking display of Information/Media is certainly the most important criteria.[/CENTER]
Better send this link: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=637063
And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
I have.
the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
That's a pretty big thing that affects the user experience. Are you claiming that all the images you view are at their native resolution!?
You an say what you want, but the banding is extremely ugly. It is one example of either poor planning or poor implementation by Google/HTC. Apple is known for attention to detail.
Even if the iPhone screen is better it would be due to software, not hardware. Therefore "iPhone LCD trumps Nexus One OLED is an inaccurate statement, the test was limited by software, not hardware.
Exactly the point I was trying to get across. Some people are quick to dismiss OLED as inferior, but it seems that its the current display software thats inferior, not the screens themselves.
That's a pretty big thing that affects the user experience. Are you claiming that all the images you view are at their native resolution!?
You an say what you want, but the banding is extremely ugly. It is one example of either poor planning or poor implementation by Google/HTC. Apple is known for attention to detail.
No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.
And yes, Apples is know for attention to detail, but are you saying that since firmware 1.0 they have been flawless and without a bug? I don't think so.
No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.
...
Who is the "they" who said that "it is a hardware fault and flaw in OLED technology"? It wasn't the tester, Dr. Soneira. He clearly stated due to the Nexus PenTile pixel arrangement, "... in practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images." And then following in red text,
Note that we are testing and evaluating the display on the Nexus One with whatever hardware, firmware, OS and software are provided by Google and HTC. On-screen image and picture quality issues can arise in any one or more of these component layers.
Who is the "they" who said that "it is a hardware fault and flaw in OLED technology"? It wasn't the tester, Dr. Soneira. He clearly (and in red text) stated,
This text wasn't there yesterday
Here is blaming the technology and, he is wrong, the technology doesn't make any artifacts
"Another unusual aspect of the Nexus One display is that it uses a PenTile pixel arrangement, where there are only two sub-pixels per pixel instead of the usual three, Red, Green and Blue, that are used in most display technologies. Every PenTile pixel includes a Green sub-pixel, but the Red and Blue sub-pixels appear in alternating pixels. In principle, that is only a minor issue because if Red or Blue isn?t available in a particular pixel, then the display driver can just use one from an adjacent pixel. But In practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images."
It seems very common nowadays that people must confess that they own apple products so they deserve the rights to complain apple.
Come on, if you think iPhone pales to N1, don't have to say you own 4 iPhones.
Actually, it's valid to point out that I have four iPhones when comparing the Nexus One to iPhones. It shows at least a couple things that add credibility to my opinion:
1) I am a long time owner of iPhones, and therefore a "fan" of the product over the years, and
2) I actually have iPhones in my possession to sit side-by-side with the Nexus One to make real time comparisons of the two products.
Contrast this to those fanboys who have never even seen an N1, or those who have only played with one for a few minutes that a friend owns. With the story in question here, I pulled up the test pictures on both devices and saw the result for myself. How many others slamming the N1 in this thread have done that?
Additionally, in may of these Apple-oriented forums, it's not uncommon for trolls to come along and "diss" the Apple product just to be a jerk. Pointing out your fondness/ownership of the Apple products generally wards off accusations of being one of those trolls.
This text wasn't there yesterday
Here is blaming the technology and, he is wrong, the technology doesn't make any artifacts
"Another unusual aspect of the Nexus One display is that it uses a PenTile pixel arrangement, where there are only two sub-pixels per pixel instead of the usual three, Red, Green and Blue, that are used in most display technologies. Every PenTile pixel includes a Green sub-pixel, but the Red and Blue sub-pixels appear in alternating pixels. In principle, that is only a minor issue because if Red or Blue isn?t available in a particular pixel, then the display driver can just use one from an adjacent pixel. But In practice, it makes things a lot harder for the software and makes it very likely that artifacts will creep into the on-screen images."
Yes, I believe you're correct about the addition and highlighting of the text. I think he expanded on his original text, "... some of this is undoubtedly due to poor integration of the display hardware with the Android OS and software. Much of it, however, is simply due to very poor factory calibration and quality control."
In your second paragraph you quote, Dr. Soneira uses the words "minor issue" and "makes things a lot harder ..." Is this what you interpret as him asserting technology "blame" and "fault"?
I'm unfamiliar with the technology being discussed and am not trying to be contrary, but after reading and re-reading, the descriptions/criticisms come across more as hyperbole to further personal agendas and points-of-view that may put words in others' mouths. I believe words have both literal and implied meaning and I'm just attempting to calibrate.
I own an iphone but also had an old Trekstor mp3 player with an oled screen, which could only display blue, orange and black in a low pixel density. Still if I could choose between an iphone with only black and white OLED and the current one I'd take the OLED. OLED is simply outstanding in contrast ratios and looks simply awesome compared to a standard washed out LCD. Especially in total darkness and also outside.
I personally think that the iphone LCD still sucks as a picture viewer and could be a lot better with a little more pixels and contrast. It is okay but only in the sense as there is nothing better, which means it is still far from good. If I want a picture viewer I need something to hook the thing easily up to a TV or display and need neither an iphone nor a Nexus nor any other such smartphone.
Yes he is incompentent, he is saying that Nexus One only uses 16 bit color so it has banding and a poor pictures quality. If he had opened the same images on the browser or on other pitcure viewers he had noticed that there is no banding and a superb quality picture.
All the results about picture quality, lower display technology are totally wrong.
Scientific? I don't whink so
...
Better send this link: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=637063
And if I have to testbanding in a device I will use an image with the native resolution to avoid any resizing artifact, he is not using native resolutions nor for the iPhone nor for the Nexus and the only thing that he has proved is that Nexus has bugs in image scaling
Response from Dr. Soneira, author of the article:
On Feb 23, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Raymond Soneira wrote:
Thanks for your two Emails... I normally don't participate in forum discussions because they often seem to be dominated by baseless and obnoxious flaming remarks. Please post this one-time reply for me...
1. The test pattern tests were done with test patterns generated at the exact native 800x480 resolution of the Nexus One and the exact native 480x320 resolution of the iPhone so that scaling was not an issue for them. The RGBW intensity ramps in Figure 1 are 24-bit bmp 800x480 for the Nexus One and 480x320 for the iPhone. This is clearly stated in a couple of places in the article, so the remarks you sent are from someone who either didn't read or understand the article.
2. The quality of the image scaling is very relevant and very important because 99% of the images displayed by the Nexus One and iPhone have to be rescaled to fit the native resolution of the display. The Nexus One does a very poor job of it. That's a major issue and a major problem. Since scaling is done in software it can be fixed, but it still needs fixing! That level of crudeness doesn't belong in a shipping product.
3. The native resolution test patterns in Figure 1 clearly and definitely show that the Nexus One is using a 16-bit display interface. It shouldn't have one, it shouldn't be there. The browser is a complex multi-layered piece of software and for that reason is a bad place to test and analyze the display, which is what I am doing in the article. I am reviewing the display system, not the browser. There are many possible reasons why false contouring doesn't show up in the browser - it's most likely doing its own rescaling and dithering. Once again, I am not testing the browser, I am testing the display system, and the display system has a 16-bit interface and that is shocking!
4. All of the above issues can presumably be fixed in software. The factory calibration issues that are discussed in Part Ib on Wednesday most likely cannot...
Ray Soneira
Thanks for the post, CurtisEMayle.
You're quite welcome.
The top one is a Samsung Wave and the bottom one is a Nexus One.
I think Samsung make the colours a bit too punchy and should include user adjustable settings for contrast and saturation. But that said, I will bet 99 people out of 100 would prefer the Wave display over the iPhone.
Response from Dr. Soneira, author of the article:
I apologize for not have reading the part about resolution but Dr. Soneira is still wrong about the 16bit output, the image just above my post can prove that it outputs 24bits.
And the part about the browser having different scaling is shocking, if you have a 16bit display, you can make different scalings and different ditherings, you still have a 16bit output and is no way you can show the RGB example without banding.
And in Camera application, 3rd party pictures viewers and Browser you can view the examples used like the iPhones ones, without banding and showing that its output it's 24bit.
I don't know why Dr. Soneira can agree with that and say what he is saying.
P.S. I don't have any agenda
I wonder how the Samsung Wave would fare, compared next to an iPhone?
.
I played with a Samsung Super Amoled terminal at MWC in barcelona and it's gorgeous
No, I'm saying that they were wrong saying that it's a hardware fault and that it's a flaw in OLED technology.
And yes, Apples is know for attention to detail, but are you saying that since firmware 1.0 they have been flawless and without a bug? I don't think so.
Oh? Is this Android 1.0?
Oh? Is this Android 1.0?
Oh? Is iPhone OS 3.x or Mac OS X 10.6.x or any other os bug free?
hence an alternative title would also be valid: "Motorola Droid LCD trumps iPhone LCD"