MacBook Pros in tight supply, new models could broaden gap with MacBooks

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  • Reply 61 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    So the lower end 13" can have slower processors and no discrete GPU, while the higher end 13" can have faster processors and discrete GPU.



    Now we're back to space as engineering issues in the 13" over the 15".



    You can't see why a machine with a slower processor might also get the slower GPU option?
  • Reply 62 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by psylence2k View Post


    Anyone have any idea when apple might decide to refresh the macbook air ?



    I'd wager it'll be refreshed with the pro Macs, if not sooner. The CULV Core-i7s have likely been ready since January for that machine type.
  • Reply 63 of 115
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    So the lower end 13" can have slower processors and no discrete GPU, while the higher end 13" can have faster processors and discrete GPU. Basically, have the 13" cover the same range in terms of price and performance as the 15", but shifted downward a bit due to the limitations of the formfactor. Right now the 13"'s price/performance range is not just shifted downward, but the top of the range is chopped off because Apple doesn't think people looking for portable machines want that much performance. This I would like to see changed with the refresh.



    I don't think Apple wants to position it that way. It's a psychological barrier. When people see how far it can be upgraded, they look at the lessor one they were going to buy, and change their minds, and don't buy anything. People often don't want to buy a low end model if theres a big difference between that one and the "best" one. Hence, the positioning.
  • Reply 64 of 115
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by psylence2k View Post


    Anyone have any idea when apple might decide to refresh the macbook air ?



    Don't know but if you are just waiting for a good deal, you can get one marked down $350 from regular price from a fantastic reseller, SmallDog: http://www.smalldog.com/wag19883/at_dealmac It has an SSD too. I'd wager a current computer with an SSD would feel faster than a new MacBook Air or Pro without one, at least on many things. I'm going with an MPB for other reasons, but if I thought this might interest you psylence...



    Well I guess we'll all meet back here next Tuesday to either commiserate or trade high fives.
  • Reply 65 of 115
    Various posters are arguing the merits of optical drives, or removing optical drives... I think Apple has tested the waters with the MacBook Air just to decide that particular point.



    You may see a MacBook Air Pro with the refresh--or, the MacBook Air may go away entirely, since the mainline MacBooks may accomplish the same thing.



    (I say lose the optical drive; put in another SSD or battery or make the case smaller. An external drive need not be all that large. When I last traveled with my '06 MacBook Pro, I copied ripped DVDs to it rather than fool with bringing the physical DVDs. If I really needed an optical drive I would not mind lugging a small external. Besides, the last time I used the optical drive on the laptop was to install Snow Leopard. In fact, I think the only time I've used the optical drive was when there was an OS disk involved.)
  • Reply 66 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Isomorphic View Post


    Various posters are arguing the merits of optical drives, or removing optical drives... I think Apple has tested the waters with the MacBook Air just to decide that particular point.



    You may see a MacBook Air Pro with the refresh--or, the MacBook Air may go away entirely, since the mainline MacBooks may accomplish the same thing.



    (I say lose the optical drive; put in another SSD or battery or make the case smaller. An external drive need not be all that large. When I last traveled with my '06 MacBook Pro, I copied ripped DVDs to it rather than fool with bringing the physical DVDs. If I really needed an optical drive I would not mind lugging a small external. Besides, the last time I used the optical drive on the laptop was to install Snow Leopard. In fact, I think the only time I've used the optical drive was when there was an OS disk involved.)



    I can see a market for the ultra=light notebooks, like the MBA, but the need does diminish quite a bit with the removal of the ODD and the eventual thinning by 2.5mm once they can go to an SSD (or loss a platter in the HDD).



    Plus, the MBA's battery is pretty bad compared to the current notebook lineup. Hopefully the next revision resolves some of that but I am not sure how much they can improve it. Ideally that type of machine would have more longevity than other notebooks.



    The inclusion of the SD card slot on Macs was odd since it was so longer after they were standard in cameras and in most PCs. It did come after the SDXC was ratified which I think played a major role, but I think that Apple intends to eventually put their OS restore disc on SD card. You can already copy SL to an SD Card, Flash drive, or an internal or external disk and boot from it. it's easy as pie with Disk Utility and means you'll never need Target Disk Mode to do a fix or remove files.
  • Reply 67 of 115
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Now we're back to space as engineering issues in the 13" over the 15".



    So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.
  • Reply 68 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post


    So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.



    Which model is this? Sony has great engineers, too, but you can't bend the laws of physics.



    BTW, the Core-i7 means nothing as the TDP for mobiles runs from 18W for the CULV version up to the 45W for the quad-core version. The next MBA will get a Core-i7 even though the C2D in the MB is faster.
  • Reply 69 of 115
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Which model is this? Sony has great engineers, too, but you can't bend the laws of physics.



    BTW, the Core-i7 means nothing as the TDP for mobiles runs from 18W for the CULV version up to the 45W for the quad-core version. The next MBA will get a Core-i7 even though the C2D in the MB is faster.



    The new Sony Vaio Z series: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...tegoryId=16154



    When I first saw those specs I also thought it was not physically possible. But alas! they had done it. It's the model singly responsible for giving me hope for great things to come with a new 13" MBP.



    The Core i7 in the Vaio Z is the 35W one, the same one as the MBPs would probably use.
  • Reply 70 of 115
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Which model is this? Sony has great engineers, too, but you can't bend the laws of physics.



    BTW, the Core-i7 means nothing as the TDP for mobiles runs from 18W for the CULV version up to the 45W for the quad-core version. The next MBA will get a Core-i7 even though the C2D in the MB is faster.



    The Vaio Z series has these features. Sony has had similar high powered but tiny 13" models out since before the first Macbook Pro came out in 2006. Size clearly can't be an excuse if Sony can do it over and over again. My point is that if Apple's designs are so constricting that they don't allow for this level of expansion and power, when it can clearly be done, they need to be rethought.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    It's the model singly responsible for giving me hope for great things to come with a new 13" MBP.



    Don't get too happy. Sony has had powerful machines this size out for years. Apple still claims that no one wants a high powered 13" machine though (or, for that matter, a low power 17" notebook).
  • Reply 71 of 115
    rokkenrokken Posts: 236member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post


    So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.



    Note that Sony states on its site that $1,900 is starting price and excludes a couple of features you said. It costs $3,550 after you add i7, 512G twin SSD and a BD burner to the list so I don't see how you can get all those for the price of a mid-range 15" MBP.
  • Reply 72 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post


    So then why can Sony fit Core i7 processors with discrete and integrated graphics, a BD burner, Verizon wireless access, an SD slot, expresscard slot, and twin SSDs into a 3lb package smaller than a Macbook with a 13.1" full HD screen for the price of a midrange 15" Macbook? I find it very hard to believe that if Sony can do it that Apple can't.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    The new Sony Vaio Z series: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...tegoryId=16154



    When I first saw those specs I also thought it was not physically possible. But alas! they had done it. It's the model singly responsible for giving me hope for great things to come with a new 13" MBP.



    The Core i7 in the Vaio Z is the 35W one, the same one as the MBPs would probably use.



    You still can't deny the laws of physics. Having a 13" display in each doesn't mean they are the same size machines, only that they are the same size displays. You can get much more powerful systems the thicker you make the chassis.



    What's the 13" MBP line? 0.95" the entire way but the Sony Viao Z gets goes up to 1.30" and has feet for more airflow? That isn't to say that the Viao is too thick or that the feet are silly but there are reasons for what we are seeing.



    They are also only using SSDs for the dual drives. Since the typical HDD is 9.5mm and the typical SSD is 7mm, but the chassis is considerably thicker toward the back, they can easily stack two of them on each other, so they are still taking up the same footprint space as 1 HDD or SSD.



    The uses of the Core-i7 can't be considered because the Macs have yet to be updated to the Core-ix line. I have doubts there will be any Core-i7s in the 13" line. keep it i3 with i5 are the higher-end with i5 and i7 in he 15" and 17" models.



    Then there is price. Going smaller does cost more. The Viao Z does start at $600 more than the 13" MBP.



    PS: I only perused the specs for a second last night because going to bed so that i based on fatigued research with sleep immediately afterwards so some of my specifics could be very off. That doesn't change the fact that cost and physics play major roles and should not be overlooked. The Viao Z looks like a great machine but for the cost I would expect quite a bit more than a 13" MBP, I'd also not be surprised to see a discrete GPU in the 13" MB or MBP, like they had in the 12" PB now that they can't use the 9400M as the IGP.
  • Reply 73 of 115
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Isomorphic View Post


    Various posters are arguing the merits of optical drives, or removing optical drives... I think Apple has tested the waters with the MacBook Air just to decide that particular point.



    You may see a MacBook Air Pro with the refresh--or, the MacBook Air may go away entirely, since the mainline MacBooks may accomplish the same thing.



    (I say lose the optical drive; put in another SSD or battery or make the case smaller. An external drive need not be all that large. When I last traveled with my '06 MacBook Pro, I copied ripped DVDs to it rather than fool with bringing the physical DVDs. If I really needed an optical drive I would not mind lugging a small external. Besides, the last time I used the optical drive on the laptop was to install Snow Leopard. In fact, I think the only time I've used the optical drive was when there was an OS disk involved.)



    You know, I'm starting to agree...I was arguing for ODD since many files from another era are still bound to discs. But like ya'll I haven't used my optical since...installing OS X! And 10.5 at that! I really had to think. Wait, I watched one DVD a few months ago. How about this...best case scenario...in the 13" and 15" we get a bay where we pick whether we want an ODD, HDD, SSD, or other device. I don't know whether it would get too complicated but allowing an extra battery would be SO COOL. And 3rd party companies could come up with other add-ons, like adding a card to do USB 3 or some other fancy interface or device. And perhaps the 17" could have two bays, or an ODD and an expansion bay. I mean that's a big machine, it's like a lunch tray.



    And to differentiate..the regular MacBook wouldn't have either. No ODD but no bay. I'd hope they could thus chop $100 off. This would help institutional and education buyers, students, folks at home that don't want an ODD, etc. I guess the MacBook would become the MacBook Air. Perhaps not quite as thin or something. Thus the MacBook Air to justify higher cost would have to be faster or have more RAM/HD etc. or maybe just go away.



    Well anyway here's to next Tuesday. Hey solip aren't you supposed to be on vacation? Take vacation, come back, enjoy new Apple updates.
  • Reply 74 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post


    You know, I'm starting to agree...I was arguing for ODD since many files from another era are still bound to discs. But like ya'll I haven't used my optical since...installing OS X! And 10.5 at that! I really had to think. Wait, I watched one DVD a few months ago. How about this...best case scenario...in the 13" and 15" we get a bay where we pick whether we want an ODD, HDD, SSD, or other device. I don't know whether it would get too complicated but allowing an extra battery would be SO COOL. And 3rd party companies could come up with other add-ons, like adding a card to do USB 3 or some other fancy interface or device. And perhaps the 17" could have two bays, or an ODD and an expansion bay. I mean that's a big machine, it's like a lunch tray.



    And to differentiate..the regular MacBook wouldn't have either. No ODD but no bay. I'd hope they could thus chop $100 off. This would help institutional and education buyers, students, folks at home that don't want an ODD, etc. I guess the MacBook would become the MacBook Air. Perhaps not quite as thin or something. Thus the MacBook Air to justify higher cost would have to be faster or have more RAM/HD etc. or maybe just go away.



    Well anyway here's to next Tuesday. Hey solip aren't you supposed to be on vacation? Take vacation, come back, enjoy new Apple updates.



    I think that is most people's initial response to the ODD. They think it's as important as the CPU or RAM but when they think about the last time it was utilized they realize they haven't.



    I'm so keen on the space being multi-function. It would still mean 5" of port-side real estate gone and it could never be as efficient as simply moving the ODD externally for the few that need it. There would be lots of complaints and they would likely sell quite a few external ODDs, hopefully dropping the current MBA ODD price from $99 to $49-79.



    I wish I could. I got delayed the day of my vacation. It was a month long cruise to Australia. No biggie, I'd have missed this forum too much anyway.





    PS: I "hope" that the delay in pro Mac updates is due to a Mac special event coming shortly. One where they want to showcase the new Macs on stage because it's radical changes, not just a speed bump. They need less than a week for the media, but I don't think they even need that these days. Just film it in house, post the video and let it go viral. I'm sure even MSNBC would spend plenty of time on it.
  • Reply 75 of 115
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    You still can't deny the laws of physics. Having a 13" display in each doesn't mean they are the same size machines, only that they are the same size displays. You can get much more powerful systems the thicker you make the chassis.



    What's the 13" MBP line? 0.95" the entire way but the Sony Viao Z gets goes up to 1.30" and has feet for more airflow? That isn't to say that the Viao is too thick or that the feet are silly but there are reasons for what we are seeing.



    They are also only using SSDs for the dual drives. Since the typical HDD is 9.5mm and the typical SSD is 7mm, but the chassis is considerably thicker toward the back, they can easily stack two of them on each other, so they are still taking up the same footprint space as 1 HDD or SSD.



    The uses of the Core-i7 can't be considered because the Macs have yet to be updated to the Core-ix line. I have doubts there will be any Core-i7s in the 13" line. keep it i3 with i5 are the higher-end with i5 and i7 in he 15" and 17" models.



    Then there is price. Going smaller does cost more. The Viao Z does start at $600 more than the 13" MBP.



    PS: I only perused the specs for a second last night because going to bed so that i based on fatigued research with sleep immediately afterwards so some of my specifics could be very off. That doesn't change the fact that cost and physics play major roles and should not be overlooked. The Viao Z looks like a great machine but for the cost I would expect quite a bit more than a 13" MBP, I'd also not be surprised to see a discrete GPU in the 13" MB or MBP, like they had in the 12" PB now that they can't use the 9400M as the IGP.



    The chassis of the new Vaio Z is actually about 1" thick throughout, it's measured as 1.3" at the back because the battery has protruding feet that raise the machine up a bit, for the airflow reason as you said. It's still a bit thicker than the MBP, but not much. If I had to choose between not needing 0.3" of raised airflow space and powerful performance, I would choose the latter. But unfortunately I'm not optimistic that Apple would feel the same way. But at some point this form-over-function thing really needs to stop, especially on the Pro line that is supposed to be more about performance.
  • Reply 76 of 115
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    ...this form-over-function thing really needs to stop, especially on the Pro line that is supposed to be more about performance.



    Definitely. Sacrificing 20% performance just so the laptop doesn't have to stand up mere fractions of a inch off a table is the classic "new" Steve Jobs Apple. I agree it sucks. Same thing for it having to be paper-thin. To a point, it's good to have a solid case, minimalist design, good UI, keep things compact, etc. But yeah I agree they take things a bit far in several areas on the laptops. There is definitely room between the current design ethic and becoming a fugly 3" think luggable Dell. I particularly think the 15" and 17" don't need to be quite so thin. What good does thin do you when it's so large planimetrically?
  • Reply 77 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    The chassis of the new Vaio Z is actually about 1" thick throughout, it's measured as 1.3" at the back because the battery has protruding feet that raise the machine up a bit, for the airflow reason as you said. It's still a bit thicker than the MBP, but not much. If I had to choose between not needing 0.3" of raised airflow space and powerful performance, I would choose the latter. But unfortunately I'm not optimistic that Apple would feel the same way. But at some point this form-over-function thing really needs to stop, especially on the Pro line that is supposed to be more about performance.



    Those are valid points but I wouldn't say it's necessarily form over function and simply being "Faster" doesn't mean that the Vaio Z is more function over form as that isn't the only measure we need to consider.



    The Pro line is more about performance over the non-Pro line of Macs, but not only about processing performance and not usually trying to be the fastest PC in that display size for that machine type.



    I answer the rest under Aquatic's post...





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post


    Definitely. Sacrificing 20% performance just so the laptop doesn't have to stand up mere fractions of a inch off a table is the classic "new" Steve Jobs Apple. I agree it sucks. Same thing for it having to be paper-thin. To a point, it's good to have a solid case, minimalist design, good UI, keep things compact, etc. But yeah I agree they take things a bit far in several areas on the laptops. There is definitely room between the current design ethic and becoming a fugly 3" think luggable Dell. I particularly think the 15" and 17" don't need to be quite so thin. What good does thin do you when it's so large planimetrically?



    There are some things to consider with Sony's design. How rigid/durable is it compared to the 13" MBP? How big is the battery and how much of the battery sticks out to make that 1.3" height?



    solarein states that the average thickness of the Vaio Z is 1" but the MBP is 0.95" inches. How much of that 5% over the footprint of the machine helps with cooling and making components that can be built higher?



    What purpose are the feet on the Vaio Z? Presumably for cooling, but most laptops are often used on the lap where the feet become pointless and the bottom is firmly resting on an object nearing 100° F. Is the machine tested well to operate under those conditions? If so, then why have the feet at all.



    If there is an issue with Apple's machine it's likely not form over function so much as marketing over "spec listing". In other words, Apple choose not to make a 13" notebook that starts at $1,800 to compete with Sony but instead to offer a quality machine that starts at $1500, which they latter dropped to $1200. Apple's goal is to make money, as is any other PC company but it seems the only way for others is to go below or above the performance Apple is willing to offer for a machine class.
  • Reply 78 of 115
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Those are valid points but I wouldn't say it's necessarily form over function and simply being "Faster" doesn't mean that the Vaio Z is more function over form as that isn't the only measure we need to consider.



    The Pro line is more about performance over the non-Pro line of Macs, but not only about processing performance and not usually trying to be the fastest PC in that display size for that machine type.



    I answer the rest under Aquatic's post...







    There are some things to consider with Sony's design. How rigid/durable is it compared to the 13" MBP? How big is the battery and how much of the battery sticks out to make that 1.3" height?



    solarein states that the average thickness of the Vaio Z is 1" but the MBP is 0.95" inches. How much of that 5% over the footprint of the machine helps with cooling and making components that can be built higher?



    What purpose are the feet on the Vaio Z? Presumably for cooling, but most laptops are often used on the lap where the feet become pointless and the bottom is firmly resting on an object nearing 100° F. Is the machine tested well to operate under those conditions? If so, then why have the feet at all.



    If there is an issue with Apple's machine it's likely not form over function so much as marketing over "spec listing". In other words, Apple choose not to make a 13" notebook that starts at $1,800 to compete with Sony but instead to offer a quality machine that starts at $1500, which they latter dropped to $1200. Apple's goal is to make money, as is any other PC company but it seems the only way for others is to go below or above the performance Apple is willing to offer for a machine class.



    Having used the last generation Z extensively (the new one isn't that different case wise), the case isn't as rigid. It's mostly made of carbon fiber impregnated plastic, but I've never seen a plastic case as rigid as the aluminum unibody cases. To be fair though, it is lighter than a Macbook Air, so something had to be compromised.



    That said, I think you're getting away from the point of this. The point is that a thin and light 13" notebook with loads of expansion and power can be built despite your earlier assertions that there was simply no room. Obviously I'm not suggesting that Apple make an identical computer to Sony. It doesn't have to have a 1680x1050 screen or weigh 3lbs.



    However, there's no technical reason why they can't make a more powerful, more expandable 13" Macbook Pro. It doesn't have to start at $1900. It could start at $1100 and allow people to configure it as they please (like virtually every other computer maker in the world does). The inverse is that there's no reason that anyone should have to spend $2500 to get a 17" MBP either.



    If their designs don't allow for it, the designs need to change. As Aquatic said, making the designs more flexible doesn't mean that they will instantly turn into 9lb Thinkpads.
  • Reply 79 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post


    Having used the last generation Z extensively (the new one isn't that different case wise), the case isn't as rigid. It's mostly made of carbon fiber impregnated plastic, but I've never seen a plastic case as rigid as the aluminum unibody cases. To be fair though, it is lighter than a Macbook Air, so something had to be compromised.



    That said, I think you're getting away from the point of this. The point is that a thin and light 13" notebook with loads of expansion and power can be built despite your earlier assertions that there was simply no room. Obviously I'm not suggesting that Apple make an identical computer to Sony. It doesn't have to have a 1680x1050 screen or weigh 3lbs.



    However, there's no technical reason why they can't make a more powerful, more expandable 13" Macbook Pro. It doesn't have to start at $1900. It could start at $1100 and allow people to configure it as they please (like virtually every other computer maker in the world does). The inverse is that there's no reason that anyone should have to spend $2500 to get a 17" MBP either.



    If their designs don't allow for it, the designs need to change. As Aquatic said, making the designs more flexible doesn't mean that they will instantly turn into 9lb Thinkpads.



    So what is the solution? Arguing for Core-i7 is out since we know we're waiting for a new version. We also can't argue on the merits of the Nvidia 9400M because it's a good chip has has plenty of pros and we just don't know how Apple will handle this change, though moving to the Intel IGP+mobile disdcrete GPU seems liekly.



    So to make it more like the sony, they make it less flexible, make it thicker at the thinnest part by 5% and up to 1/3" thicker to accommodate a decent battery, use plastic instead of the aluminum (carbon fiber is an additional fee), use a tray loading optical drive, get ride of the cheaper HDD in favour of only using SSDs even though they are still quite expensive?



    All those things can be done. No one that Apple could do it, but I stated earlier Apple isn't making the 13" MBP to compete with Sony that starts just under $2k before you start adding the performance and options that you stated. It starts at $1,200.



    The first thing we need to do is figure out what is key to Apple, and price point is one of those things.
  • Reply 80 of 115
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    So what is the solution? ...

    The first thing we need to do is figure out what is key to Apple, and price point is one of those things.



    I think you're missing my point. I am not asking for something as extreme as the Vaio. I am simply saying that there is a middleground between where the Macbook is now and where the Vaio is. I am also saying that it doesn't have to start at $1900 like the Vaio. It can still start at $1200 for all I care. I just want the option to get a fully loaded machine for $2500 if I choose it.
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