<strong>Spline Model, the fact that you're physically fit and even athletic, while eating an extremely meat-heavy diet, does not constitute any kind of proof that a meat-heavy diet is the most healthy. There are far more world-class distance runners who eat a diet with very little meat, and who find that a too-heavy diet bogs them down.
Does that mean I think you're lying, and that you're not really a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet? No, I believe you. I was once a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet too!
But there are also lots of examples of the opposite.... Dave Scott, Edwin Moses, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
there will ALWAYS be exceptions. I personally stopped eating meat for no particular reason, I never liked the texture and feel of beef much to begin with, I did like the taste but I didn't like how it felt and I didn't like that it came from(or usually came from) animals who have been chemically treated and ****ed with so much. I still really like chicken....though I don't eat to much of it, Like I offically don't eat chicken, but Don't be too surprised if I have a chicken sandwich every once in a while(not likely since I got morning star chicken sandwhiches
I never really liked the taste of pork or the greasiness of bacon and sausage so that was easy to put down.
but I've always liked the texture and flavor of fish, so much so that I still eat it regardless.
there are always bound to be exceptions and people that are super healthy and onl yeat meat, or people that are unhealthy and have a super balanced diet and excerise alot....so individual examples definatly don't PROOVE any general things.
Well, I've been a vegetarian (and now vegan) for all 20 years of my existence and I am quite healthy. Yes, I am a little thin, but my entire family is thin (and no, they're not vegetarians). So I, personally, believe that you can be vegetarian AND/or vegan and still be healthy. But I'm not a PHd and I'm not a registered dietician, so what do I know?
Thinking about what Spline Model said reminded me of something funny.
I remember reading stories about Bill Rogers (many-time Boston Marathon champion, long America's best or 2nd best marathoner when the "running boom" started) living on nothing but huge quantities of beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it. This is something I read about probably 20 years ago, when I was running cross-country and track in high school (and eating a diet only slightly more nutritious than the one Rogers described). Lots of Coke, Doritos, cold pizza, hot dogs, BBQ ribs, fast food.
Of course most of the competitive runners I know (including my best friend, who ended up running on a Nike sponsored Hood-to-Coast Relay team with Alberto Salazar that won in a record-setting time one year) eat pretty light foods, lots of fruit and pasta, but in really huge quantities. Sort of unofficial near-vegetarians.
I'm an ex-vegetarian. I usually eat veg when I can. It was an interesting life, but people would look down at me for not eating meat, which I think was whack.
Anyway, if you choose correctly, you can eat plenty. It's not bad at all. I don't know how vegans survive though. There are by-products of cow in notebooks.
<strong>I'm an ex-vegetarian. I usually eat veg when I can. It was an interesting life, but people would look down at me for not eating meat, which I think was whack.
Anyway, if you choose correctly, you can eat plenty. It's not bad at all. I don't know how vegans survive though. There are by-products of cow in notebooks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Then it must be terrible to don't be aloud to eat their notebooks
A Story: This is my first year in college and I am currently living in the dorms. Our male RA is a vegetarian; he's thin, pale, and never has any energy. When we all first moved in, one person thought he had cancer, another thought he was anemic or something. We have since gotten him start eating chicken and now's his skin has color again and we can tell he's more energetic.
Lesson: While the common idea is that vegetarianism is healthy, it can also be very unhealthy. A lot of people seem to become vegetarians so that they can live healthier, but it's not that simple. Living healthily takes work, no matter what kind of lifestyle you live.
----------
The problem with being vegetarian (or vegan), is that humans are omnivores. We are made to eat meats as well as fruits, vegetables, and the like. However, too much of the wrong kinds of meat can be a bad thing.
A common misconception among vegetarians is that meat is meat. But there are different kinds of meat. Red meats?beef and pork?are needed because they provide us with the b-vitamins that we need. White meats?fish and poultry?provide us with the protein that we need. And when I say fish, I mean white fish. Certain fish have that "fishy" taste which means lots of oils which is not good. White fish don't have that "fishy" taste... trout comes to mind.
Many people think eating meat is unhealthy because they don't undestand what I stated above. Red meat is good in small portions, SMALL portions. Too much can be bad for you heart, cholesterol, can cause colon cancer, etc. "Fishy" fish are not good for you. White meats are good for you and can (and should) be eaten more than red meats.
If someone chooses to be vegetarian, they need to make sure that they are getting the necessary b-vitamins and proteins through other food sources. If not, then they are being an unhealthy vegetarian. If someone chooses to eat meat, they need to understand the different types and uses and eat them accordingly.
Either way, vegetarian or not, it is possible to be healthy or unhealthy.
Seriously though, the b vitamins are essential. Thats why I drink soy and rice milk that is fortified (sp?) with b vitamins, especially B-12.
While I agree that you can be a very healthy meat eater, as well as being a very healthy vegetarian, there is a big debate about our bodies being "made to digest meat".
However, I'm not sure about that. If you have any facts that you can show me to prove that the human body was made to digest meat I'd like to see those too.
I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
This link is pure fantasy and is pseudoscientific. Men are omnivorous from milleniums, baboons don't have claws either and they eat meat. Rodent have claws and do not eat meat generally.
Thousands years ago, before men learn to cultivate (perhaps the biggest evolution in the human history, even bigger than the discovering of fire), men where hunting and picking.
Our teeth and our intestinal systems are very different from a cow.
And this is the last and more essential point : there is twenty species of amin's acid. At the exception of Colza , the vegetals does not contain all the amin's acid we need. Plant eater have a metabolism that he is able to synthetise all this amin's acid they need. Humans has not this ability.
Well as a society we certainly weren't meant biologically to be eating the diet that we are eating today. Unless they find cave paintings of early man taking down a paleolithic ring-ding.
I have no problems with vegetarianism or vegans. I believe that with work they can get as much of the necessary vitamins and proteins as omnivores. I am more concerned with the people in the world who consider Funyuns a vegetable. Obesity is by all accounts an epidemic. It's far too easy to drop into McDonalds for fuel (I refuse to call that food, and I have eaten fast food -In'n'out- in the past month) than it is to plan ahead for something nutritious. It's easier to tell youself that you'll have something healthy the next meal and grab the snickers and a coke.
And I don't think that meat is bad (I love meat, good meat that I can savor, not a pre-pressed piece of ground shoe leather dripping "secret sauce" on my shoes)- it's the things that they pump into it that are. 90% of us don't watch what we eat. I applaud vegans and vegetarians for at least paying attention, as well as the carnivore with the 6% body fat and the 4 minute mile. The only way I co do that is in my car.
Seriously though, the b vitamins are essential. Thats why I drink soy and rice milk that is fortified (sp?) with b vitamins, especially B-12.
While I agree that you can be a very healthy meat eater, as well as being a very healthy vegetarian, there is a big debate about our bodies being "made to digest meat".
However, I'm not sure about that. If you have any facts that you can show me to prove that the human body was made to digest meat I'd like to see those too.
I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
the canine teeth are designed with meat in mind....however....the fact that we onle have 2...is peculiar. it makes me wonder that perhaps humans have through evolution, lost previous sets of canine teeth to bring about a more herbavore-vegetarian diet.
I read a big article abou it, and it said that though humans ARE omnivores....just barely.
the current homo-sapien sapien phsyical construction is more biased towards eating things that are non-meat(according to the article)but we are still CAPABLE of eating meat, and we are still supposed to have a _little_ meat here and there.
I eat fish....and I have a little chicken here and there...I'm not sure about my B-vitamins but I have protein covered....I eat _alot_ of ice cream if thats worth anything
Your body can digest cardboard too, but that doesn't mean you should eat it.
I guess its not black or white on the issue of our digestive system. I mean I can't even digest lactose! Yes, I'm lactose intolerant, but that happened before I ever even considered being vegetarian. I suffered a lot as a little kid from simple things like pizza and ice cream.
<strong>Your body can digest cardboard too, but that doesn't mean you should eat it.
I guess its not black or white on the issue of our digestive system. I mean I can't even digest lactose! Yes, I'm lactose intolerant, but that happened before I ever even considered being vegetarian. I suffered a lot as a little kid from simple things like pizza and ice cream.
Took awhile till we figured out it was dairy </strong><hr></blockquote>
my sister used to LOVE mangos, she ate a mango a day at least....now she's allergic to them and gets a nasty rash around her mouth if she eats them(though I think mango flavored products don't affect her)
I hope nothing like that happens to me...
I never drink milk straight(mostly just with cereal) I've never really liked the taste or feel of milk....but I've also never really like soy milk(though I am going to give it another shot)
I would hate to be lactose-intolerant...I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.
I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
One word: "Tofutti"
I don't know anyone who can tell the difference between it and real ice cream. There's also a lot of other fake ice cream products. Not that you even want to switch, but you should give them a try at least once just to see if you'd enjoy them.
I don't know anyone who can tell the difference between it and real ice cream. There's also a lot of other fake ice cream products. Not that you even want to switch, but you should give them a try at least once just to see if you'd enjoy them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i've had it before...its great...toffuti cuties are great too. I love it as a subsitiute to the real thing.
Ok, I read the first page (not post- page), and all that aside I have one question to all meat eaters. Could you eat man (or woman) meat, and I don't mean in a sexual way. I'm talkin' like a big muscle let's say fore arm lopped off and thrown on your grill. Yummy
<strong>Ok, I read the first page (not post- page), and all that aside I have one question to all meat eaters. Could you eat man (or woman) meat, and I don't mean in a sexual way. I'm talkin' like a big muscle let's say fore arm lopped off and thrown on your grill. Yummy </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think it's a general law of nature not to eat one's own kind unless desperate. I think I fall into the same category. I'd eat man if worse came to worse. Like if I were stranded on an island and my companion fell out of a tree an died. I'd rather eat him than starve to death.
[quote]long America's best or 2nd best marathoner when the "running boom" started) living on nothing but huge quantities of beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it.<hr></blockquote>
I love beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it! Bring out the Helmanns. . . The trouble is that the mayonnaise doesn't add that much to it to justify the effort unless you have a squeeze bottle. Give me a six pack of Becks, a greasy achovy pizza, and an hour of BattleBots and you've got a happy Splinemodel.
In order to eat healthily in general, I've found that I have to have fun from time to time.
[quote]I would hate to be lactose-intolerant...I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.<hr></blockquote>
I took a drug several years ago (8 years) called vantin that somehow shrivled up my lactase producing glands (it was later taken off the market because of this and similar side-effects). So I stopped drinking milk, but continued to eat ice cream and suffer afterwards because I like it so much.
After a 10 mile run or any sort of heavy endurance workout, there's nothing more gratifying that polishing off a half gallon of your favorite flavor (aside from the pizza and beer thing above). . . Yes, I'm a glutton. It's a lot easier to do this now, too, because I think my glands have healed.
-------
Also, having looked at that table, I found some interesting similarities between me and the meat eater.
- I don't produce much saliva. I actually have a condition known as dry-mouth.
- My intestinal tract is really short comparatively. I guess it's hard to explain this one, but this was noticed qualitatively and from an X-ray.
- I produce a lot of stomach acid. See the Maalox bottles in the trash for verification. (oddly, I only get trouble from eating Italian food)
[quote]Certain fish have that "fishy" taste which means lots of oils which is not good.<hr></blockquote>
While white fish are indeed low in fat, the fat in oily fish, specifically Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, is believed to be beneficial to human health. I don't know much about proper diets, so maybe someone who does can look it up and see if the claims for it make sense.
Comments
<strong>Spline Model, the fact that you're physically fit and even athletic, while eating an extremely meat-heavy diet, does not constitute any kind of proof that a meat-heavy diet is the most healthy. There are far more world-class distance runners who eat a diet with very little meat, and who find that a too-heavy diet bogs them down.
Does that mean I think you're lying, and that you're not really a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet? No, I believe you. I was once a physically fit person with a meat-heavy diet too!
But there are also lots of examples of the opposite.... Dave Scott, Edwin Moses, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
there will ALWAYS be exceptions. I personally stopped eating meat for no particular reason, I never liked the texture and feel of beef much to begin with, I did like the taste but I didn't like how it felt and I didn't like that it came from(or usually came from) animals who have been chemically treated and ****ed with so much. I still really like chicken....though I don't eat to much of it, Like I offically don't eat chicken, but Don't be too surprised if I have a chicken sandwich every once in a while(not likely since I got morning star chicken sandwhiches
I never really liked the taste of pork or the greasiness of bacon and sausage so that was easy to put down.
but I've always liked the texture and flavor of fish, so much so that I still eat it regardless.
there are always bound to be exceptions and people that are super healthy and onl yeat meat, or people that are unhealthy and have a super balanced diet and excerise alot....so individual examples definatly don't PROOVE any general things.
-Y
[ 02-25-2002: Message edited by: Ybot ]</p>
I remember reading stories about Bill Rogers (many-time Boston Marathon champion, long America's best or 2nd best marathoner when the "running boom" started) living on nothing but huge quantities of beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it. This is something I read about probably 20 years ago, when I was running cross-country and track in high school (and eating a diet only slightly more nutritious than the one Rogers described). Lots of Coke, Doritos, cold pizza, hot dogs, BBQ ribs, fast food.
Of course most of the competitive runners I know (including my best friend, who ended up running on a Nike sponsored Hood-to-Coast Relay team with Alberto Salazar that won in a record-setting time one year) eat pretty light foods, lots of fruit and pasta, but in really huge quantities. Sort of unofficial near-vegetarians.
Anyway, if you choose correctly, you can eat plenty. It's not bad at all. I don't know how vegans survive though. There are by-products of cow in notebooks.
<strong>It's not bad at all. I don't know how vegans survive though. There are by-products of cow in notebooks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You think thats bad, try finding sneakers that don't have animal by-products in them! :eek:
At least I feel comfortable using my Mac because the CEO is vegan
<strong>I'm an ex-vegetarian. I usually eat veg when I can. It was an interesting life, but people would look down at me for not eating meat, which I think was whack.
Anyway, if you choose correctly, you can eat plenty. It's not bad at all. I don't know how vegans survive though. There are by-products of cow in notebooks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Then it must be terrible to don't be aloud to eat their notebooks
Lesson: While the common idea is that vegetarianism is healthy, it can also be very unhealthy. A lot of people seem to become vegetarians so that they can live healthier, but it's not that simple. Living healthily takes work, no matter what kind of lifestyle you live.
----------
The problem with being vegetarian (or vegan), is that humans are omnivores. We are made to eat meats as well as fruits, vegetables, and the like. However, too much of the wrong kinds of meat can be a bad thing.
A common misconception among vegetarians is that meat is meat. But there are different kinds of meat. Red meats?beef and pork?are needed because they provide us with the b-vitamins that we need. White meats?fish and poultry?provide us with the protein that we need. And when I say fish, I mean white fish. Certain fish have that "fishy" taste which means lots of oils which is not good. White fish don't have that "fishy" taste... trout comes to mind.
Many people think eating meat is unhealthy because they don't undestand what I stated above. Red meat is good in small portions, SMALL portions. Too much can be bad for you heart, cholesterol, can cause colon cancer, etc. "Fishy" fish are not good for you. White meats are good for you and can (and should) be eaten more than red meats.
If someone chooses to be vegetarian, they need to make sure that they are getting the necessary b-vitamins and proteins through other food sources. If not, then they are being an unhealthy vegetarian. If someone chooses to eat meat, they need to understand the different types and uses and eat them accordingly.
Either way, vegetarian or not, it is possible to be healthy or unhealthy.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Seriously though, the b vitamins are essential. Thats why I drink soy and rice milk that is fortified (sp?) with b vitamins, especially B-12.
While I agree that you can be a very healthy meat eater, as well as being a very healthy vegetarian, there is a big debate about our bodies being "made to digest meat".
Here's an example contrary to your opinion.
<a href="http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html"; target="_blank">http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html</a>;
However, I'm not sure about that. If you have any facts that you can show me to prove that the human body was made to digest meat I'd like to see those too.
I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>[b
Here's an example contrary to your opinion.
<a href="http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html"; target="_blank">http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html</a>;
I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
This link is pure fantasy and is pseudoscientific. Men are omnivorous from milleniums, baboons don't have claws either and they eat meat. Rodent have claws and do not eat meat generally.
Thousands years ago, before men learn to cultivate (perhaps the biggest evolution in the human history, even bigger than the discovering of fire), men where hunting and picking.
Our teeth and our intestinal systems are very different from a cow.
And this is the last and more essential point : there is twenty species of amin's acid. At the exception of Colza , the vegetals does not contain all the amin's acid we need. Plant eater have a metabolism that he is able to synthetise all this amin's acid they need. Humans has not this ability.
We are definitively omnivorous like bear.
I have no problems with vegetarianism or vegans. I believe that with work they can get as much of the necessary vitamins and proteins as omnivores. I am more concerned with the people in the world who consider Funyuns a vegetable. Obesity is by all accounts an epidemic. It's far too easy to drop into McDonalds for fuel (I refuse to call that food, and I have eaten fast food -In'n'out- in the past month) than it is to plan ahead for something nutritious. It's easier to tell youself that you'll have something healthy the next meal and grab the snickers and a coke.
And I don't think that meat is bad (I love meat, good meat that I can savor, not a pre-pressed piece of ground shoe leather dripping "secret sauce" on my shoes)- it's the things that they pump into it that are. 90% of us don't watch what we eat. I applaud vegans and vegetarians for at least paying attention, as well as the carnivore with the 6% body fat and the 4 minute mile. The only way I co do that is in my car.
<strong>crawlingparanoia I agree with you 100% except isn't pork "The other white meat"?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Seriously though, the b vitamins are essential. Thats why I drink soy and rice milk that is fortified (sp?) with b vitamins, especially B-12.
While I agree that you can be a very healthy meat eater, as well as being a very healthy vegetarian, there is a big debate about our bodies being "made to digest meat".
Here's an example contrary to your opinion.
<a href="http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html"; target="_blank">http://www.michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html</a>;
However, I'm not sure about that. If you have any facts that you can show me to prove that the human body was made to digest meat I'd like to see those too.
I'm really not sure what I believe about that. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
the canine teeth are designed with meat in mind....however....the fact that we onle have 2...is peculiar. it makes me wonder that perhaps humans have through evolution, lost previous sets of canine teeth to bring about a more herbavore-vegetarian diet.
I read a big article abou it, and it said that though humans ARE omnivores....just barely.
the current homo-sapien sapien phsyical construction is more biased towards eating things that are non-meat(according to the article)but we are still CAPABLE of eating meat, and we are still supposed to have a _little_ meat here and there.
I eat fish....and I have a little chicken here and there...I'm not sure about my B-vitamins but I have protein covered....I eat _alot_ of ice cream if thats worth anything
I guess its not black or white on the issue of our digestive system. I mean I can't even digest lactose! Yes, I'm lactose intolerant, but that happened before I ever even considered being vegetarian. I suffered a lot as a little kid from simple things like pizza and ice cream.
Took awhile till we figured out it was dairy
<strong>Your body can digest cardboard too, but that doesn't mean you should eat it.
I guess its not black or white on the issue of our digestive system. I mean I can't even digest lactose! Yes, I'm lactose intolerant, but that happened before I ever even considered being vegetarian. I suffered a lot as a little kid from simple things like pizza and ice cream.
Took awhile till we figured out it was dairy
my sister used to LOVE mangos, she ate a mango a day at least....now she's allergic to them and gets a nasty rash around her mouth if she eats them(though I think mango flavored products don't affect her)
I hope nothing like that happens to me...
I never drink milk straight(mostly just with cereal) I've never really liked the taste or feel of milk....but I've also never really like soy milk(though I am going to give it another shot)
I would hate to be lactose-intolerant...I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.
<strong>
I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
One word: "Tofutti"
I don't know anyone who can tell the difference between it and real ice cream. There's also a lot of other fake ice cream products. Not that you even want to switch, but you should give them a try at least once just to see if you'd enjoy them.
<strong>
One word: "Tofutti"
I don't know anyone who can tell the difference between it and real ice cream. There's also a lot of other fake ice cream products. Not that you even want to switch, but you should give them a try at least once just to see if you'd enjoy them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i've had it before...its great...toffuti cuties are great too. I love it as a subsitiute to the real thing.
<strong>Ok, I read the first page (not post- page), and all that aside I have one question to all meat eaters. Could you eat man (or woman) meat, and I don't mean in a sexual way. I'm talkin' like a big muscle let's say fore arm lopped off and thrown on your grill. Yummy
I think it's a general law of nature not to eat one's own kind unless desperate. I think I fall into the same category. I'd eat man if worse came to worse. Like if I were stranded on an island and my companion fell out of a tree an died. I'd rather eat him than starve to death.
I love beer and cold pizza with mayonnaise on it! Bring out the Helmanns. . . The trouble is that the mayonnaise doesn't add that much to it to justify the effort unless you have a squeeze bottle. Give me a six pack of Becks, a greasy achovy pizza, and an hour of BattleBots and you've got a happy Splinemodel.
In order to eat healthily in general, I've found that I have to have fun from time to time.
[quote]I would hate to be lactose-intolerant...I _LOVE_ ice cream, I don't know what I'd do without it.<hr></blockquote>
I took a drug several years ago (8 years) called vantin that somehow shrivled up my lactase producing glands (it was later taken off the market because of this and similar side-effects). So I stopped drinking milk, but continued to eat ice cream and suffer afterwards because I like it so much.
After a 10 mile run or any sort of heavy endurance workout, there's nothing more gratifying that polishing off a half gallon of your favorite flavor (aside from the pizza and beer thing above). . . Yes, I'm a glutton. It's a lot easier to do this now, too, because I think my glands have healed.
-------
Also, having looked at that table, I found some interesting similarities between me and the meat eater.
- I don't produce much saliva. I actually have a condition known as dry-mouth.
- My intestinal tract is really short comparatively. I guess it's hard to explain this one, but this was noticed qualitatively and from an X-ray.
- I produce a lot of stomach acid. See the Maalox bottles in the trash for verification. (oddly, I only get trouble from eating Italian food)
[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>
While white fish are indeed low in fat, the fat in oily fish, specifically Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, is believed to be beneficial to human health. I don't know much about proper diets, so maybe someone who does can look it up and see if the claims for it make sense.