I'd suggest you look up the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases. That was a classic case where United Shoe held a number of critical patents on shoemaking machinery, and they used to patents to effectively shut out competition. Apple's marketshare on "smart" cellphones has reached the point that suits like what they're trying to do against HTC could be construed as violating antitrust laws because Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones.
Except "critical patents on shoemaking machinery" doesn't sound much like "patents on specific implementations of specific smartphone techniques that can achieved by other means with no loss of fucntionality."
It's odd to think that the iPhone has so totally transformed the smartphone market that it's assumed that if you can't make a phone that looks and performs substantially like the iPhone you're somehow being constrained from participating in the smartphone market at all.
And last time I looked Apple had around a 20% global smartphone share, which I'm having a hard time seeing as the kind of dominance that would trigger antitrust investigations.
At any rate, to say that "Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones" based on what has been reported is simply scurrilous speculation; you could just as easily say "Apple wants to protect its intellectual property."
Anyone else noticed the attacks on Android that are springing up?
A week or so a go we had a pure FUD hatchet job attempted on the Nexus One, erroneously claiming it only had a 16 bit display. I wonder who paid for that bit of 'research'?
You mean the 'FUD' by a well respected company with a firm grounding and understanding in display calibration technology. Yeah, cos they don't know a damned thing when it comes to displays...oh wait!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
Now we have a full frontal attack on the manufacturer of the Nexus One who also are producing Android phones.
It's an attack on HTC, the manufacturer of Android AND Windows Mobile devices.
I'd suggest you look up the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases. That was a classic case where United Shoe held a number of critical patents on shoemaking machinery, and they used to patents to effectively shut out competition. Apple's marketshare on "smart" cellphones has reached the point that suits like what they're trying to do against HTC could be construed as violating antitrust laws because Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones.
Apple's market share of the smartphone industry is in the teens.
They just happen to be in the market segment that covers 70% of the profits.
Apple's market share of the smartphone industry is in the teens.
They just happen to be in the market segment that covers 70% of the profits.
Apple just three years ago had essentially ZERO presence in the cellphone market. The iPhone is one of the highest growth products for the company, and within a few years could reach over 30% of all new "smart" cellphones sold out there.
I do think the Feds and possibly EU antitrust authorities should start being concerned because Apple's lawsuit against HTC is essentially a lawsuit by proxy against the Google Android cellphone operating system, trying to not only intimidate HTC but also LG, NOKIA, Samsung and Sony Ericcson (the four biggest cellphone makers in the world) and by proxy Google, too. Given the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases I cited earlier, Apple is effectively trying to use patent laws to prevent competition, a big no-no according to the Sherman Antitrust Act.
It's only a matter of time. Just wait. If anybody thinks the Europeans are going to sit back and watch Nokia get decimated they are fooling themselves. The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.
The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.
There has to be some wrongdoing for there to be any antitrust action. If Apple has truly been victimized, they've simply defended their patents successfully. If a good chunk of the competition victimized Apple, their liability to suffer consequences is incidental.
Most customers can't upgrade for 18-24months, so you end up with a ton of stale hardware sat on shelves and wasted time and effort on R&D
I think there are two theories. One is that it reduces the "oldness" of the last model. I wouldn't buy an iPhone in April because 1) it is 9/10-months old technology and 2) the new one is coming. But if there were models in May and Nov, the max age of the old model is only 4/5-months, so I might be more willing to buy it even though the new one is coming.
The other theory is that you can get more marketing mileage out of "NEW", even if it isn't that much "newer" than the previous model.
Personally, I think Apple could work it its big software release in June, but follow it with another not-as-big-but-still-significant software release in Jan/Feb. This year and last, there's not been much in any of the .x point releases.
Apple just three years ago had essentially ZERO presence in the cellphone market. The iPhone is one of the highest growth products for the company, and within a few years could reach over 30% of all new "smart" cellphones sold out there.
I do think the Feds and possibly EU antitrust authorities should start being concerned because Apple's lawsuit against HTC is essentially a lawsuit by proxy against the Google Android cellphone operating system, trying to not only intimidate HTC but also LG, NOKIA, Samsung and Sony Ericcson (the four biggest cellphone makers in the world) and by proxy Google, too. Given the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases I cited earlier, Apple is effectively trying to use patent laws to prevent competition, a big no-no according to the Sherman Antitrust Act.
Well, Nokia is still about 40% of the smartphone market, so if Apple got to 30%, well, they'd still be less!
And Nokia has already filed a patent suit against other cellphone makers (uh, that would be Apple). So if what you say is valid, why haven't there been any rumblings abut the Feds and EU antitrust authorities going after them? Isn't Nokia using patent laws to prevent competition? Or is it because what you're saying is nonsense - as neither Nokia or Apple are anywhere near monopolies.
Or maybe, there are just special rules dreamed up for Apple.
It's only a matter of time. Just wait. If anybody thinks the Europeans are going to sit back and watch Nokia get decimated they are fooling themselves. The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.
And as I said above, then that should apply to Nokia too, shouldn't it?
Especially since Nokia's patents are even more basic to cellphones, including smartphones.
Exactly what is it that Apple is copying? If it's happening "like crazy", it should be easy to give lots of examples with info to back it up.
Nokia's lawsuit against Apple is a recent example. Apple blatantly ripped off Nokia's IP. And that's just a small part of it. The technologies needed to build a modern phone are patented, and Apple simply trampled all over other people's IP when entering the market.
So the only reason to protect one's IP is to make life difficult for competitors?
No, but in this case, that's exactly what it is about. The proof is in the pudding.
Quote:
And by going after HTC, Apple is really going after other manufacturers is some odd, circuitous fashion that has nothing to do with actually protecting one's property, selling products or HTC?
No, they want to attack Android because they see Android as a huge threat.
Quote:
By that logic then you could say the creation of the iPhone was because Apple wanted to make life difficult for manufacturers who want to sell phones.
Not at all.
And let's not forget Apple's shameful and disgusting behavior in the W3C, blocking the progress of open standards with frivolous patent claims! Apple is clearly feeling the heat, and are becoming desperate.
Nokia's lawsuit against Apple is a recent example. Apple blatantly ripped off Nokia's IP. And that's just a small part of it. The technologies needed to build a modern phone are patented, and Apple simply trampled all over other people's IP when entering the market.
Apple just three years ago had essentially ZERO presence in the cellphone market. The iPhone is one of the highest growth products for the company, and within a few years could reach over 30% of all new "smart" cellphones sold out there.
I do think the Feds and possibly EU antitrust authorities should start being concerned because Apple's lawsuit against HTC is essentially a lawsuit by proxy against the Google Android cellphone operating system, trying to not only intimidate HTC but also LG, NOKIA, Samsung and Sony Ericcson (the four biggest cellphone makers in the world) and by proxy Google, too. Given the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases I cited earlier, Apple is effectively trying to use patent laws to prevent competition, a big no-no according to the Sherman Antitrust Act.
Apple's certainly not trying to stifle competition, they're trying to protect their intellectual property. Apple spent 10 years and billions of dollars to develop the iPod/iPhone/iPad and to simply let others cherry pick what they want is ridiculous.
Sure, companies borrow and are influenced by others' designs, that's just the way everything works. BUT, when one sees blatant and direct copies of the iPhone, down to the the shape, color and surface finishes, even the home screen and icons and other interface elements... it's a wonder that Apple waited so long to go after the thieves.
insike - seriously do you even know what the Nokia suit and the Apple counter suit are about?? Any idea? At ALL?? Before running around like a witless numbnut - do just the smallest attempt at understanding the situation you reference - here let me help you:
Nokia has filed suit (and lodged a complaint with the International Trade Commission (ITC)) against Apple for what they claim is infringement by Apple of ten patents Nokia has applied to various mobile (under GSM/UMTS) and WiFi standards. Nokia has provided licensing of these patents under a standards pooling agreement the terms of which are fair and reasonable licensing terms to any company that wishes to use it and pay the established licensing fees, or in some cases, completely free and open.
Apple's countersuit and counter complaint with the ITC against Nokia claims infringement of 13 of Apple's patents and charges Nokia with not only demanding higher licensing fees for the ten standards-related patents from Apple but also demanding access to Apple's proprietary patents as a part of its own licensing terms with Apple.
The issues and allegations are plain - Nokia wants Apple to pay above and beyond the "fair, reasonable and non-discrimintory" fees required by being part of the patent pool for GSM technologies, up to and including proprietary patents that Apple holds that are of interest to Nokia.
It's only a matter of time. Just wait. If anybody thinks the Europeans are going to sit back and watch Nokia get decimated they are fooling themselves. The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.
Remember what I said: Apple's market growth for new cellphones has been spectacular, and they could approaching 1/3 of the entire world's market for "smart" cellphones within two years.
There's a famous quote from an early Spider-Man comic, "With great power comes great responsibility." Apple now wields tremendous influence in the cellphone market, but it needs to act as a responsible corporation with such a fast-growing market share. Apple in its suit against HTC is essentially a "shot across the bow" against Google and the four major cellphone manufacturers--LG, Nokia, Samsung and Sony Ericsson--in an attempt to stop the widespread distribution of "smart" touchscreen cellphones based on Google Android cellphone OS. That is approaching the point of potential patent abuse to eliminate a potential competitor, and I don't think Google, the four cellphone manufacturers I mentioned, or antitrust authorities in the USA and the EU will stand by idly!
Nokia's lawsuit against Apple is a recent example. Apple blatantly ripped off Nokia's IP. And that's just a small part of it. The technologies needed to build a modern phone are patented, and Apple simply trampled all over other people's IP when entering the market.
I guess you didn't bother to read any part of that suit, and is just mouthing some nonsense picked up from the Internet.
If you had read it, you'd know that Apple claims that Nokia is attempting to charge Apple (and only Apple) higher rates than it's charging others for use of its patented technology, AND that Nokia's not allowed to do this since they submitted this technology to a standards body to be included in the GSM Standards, which requires that they offer licensing on a Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory (FRAND) basis. Thus, Apple has refused to agree to pay the higher rates. And that's why Nokia sued.
Apple made it very clear that they are willing to pay FRAND rates - so that there is no intent to "rip off Nokia's IP."
Comments
I'd suggest you look up the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases. That was a classic case where United Shoe held a number of critical patents on shoemaking machinery, and they used to patents to effectively shut out competition. Apple's marketshare on "smart" cellphones has reached the point that suits like what they're trying to do against HTC could be construed as violating antitrust laws because Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones.
Except "critical patents on shoemaking machinery" doesn't sound much like "patents on specific implementations of specific smartphone techniques that can achieved by other means with no loss of fucntionality."
It's odd to think that the iPhone has so totally transformed the smartphone market that it's assumed that if you can't make a phone that looks and performs substantially like the iPhone you're somehow being constrained from participating in the smartphone market at all.
And last time I looked Apple had around a 20% global smartphone share, which I'm having a hard time seeing as the kind of dominance that would trigger antitrust investigations.
At any rate, to say that "Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones" based on what has been reported is simply scurrilous speculation; you could just as easily say "Apple wants to protect its intellectual property."
Anyone else noticed the attacks on Android that are springing up?
A week or so a go we had a pure FUD hatchet job attempted on the Nexus One, erroneously claiming it only had a 16 bit display. I wonder who paid for that bit of 'research'?
You mean the 'FUD' by a well respected company with a firm grounding and understanding in display calibration technology. Yeah, cos they don't know a damned thing when it comes to displays...oh wait!
Now we have a full frontal attack on the manufacturer of the Nexus One who also are producing Android phones.
It's an attack on HTC, the manufacturer of Android AND Windows Mobile devices.
If you include computers, software, ipods, peripherals, songs, etc. etc.
Not if you compare profit made on telephones vs. profits made my nokia or ericsson or motorola or HTC or etc. etc. on telephones.
That statement by Stevie was pretty loaded. But I guess you went for it....
But if you take it that "Apple is the largest company that sells cellphones", that statement is probably true.
I'd suggest you look up the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases. That was a classic case where United Shoe held a number of critical patents on shoemaking machinery, and they used to patents to effectively shut out competition. Apple's marketshare on "smart" cellphones has reached the point that suits like what they're trying to do against HTC could be construed as violating antitrust laws because Apple effectively wants to prevent competition from Android-based touchscreen cellphones.
Apple's market share of the smartphone industry is in the teens.
They just happen to be in the market segment that covers 70% of the profits.
If the problem is the refresh cycle, wouldn't it make more sense to increase the refresh cycle?
Yeah but why have a 3-6month refresh cycle?
Most customers can't upgrade for 18-24months, so you end up with a ton of stale hardware sat on shelves and wasted time and effort on R&D
Apple's market share of the smartphone industry is in the teens.
They just happen to be in the market segment that covers 70% of the profits.
Apple just three years ago had essentially ZERO presence in the cellphone market. The iPhone is one of the highest growth products for the company, and within a few years could reach over 30% of all new "smart" cellphones sold out there.
I do think the Feds and possibly EU antitrust authorities should start being concerned because Apple's lawsuit against HTC is essentially a lawsuit by proxy against the Google Android cellphone operating system, trying to not only intimidate HTC but also LG, NOKIA, Samsung and Sony Ericcson (the four biggest cellphone makers in the world) and by proxy Google, too. Given the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases I cited earlier, Apple is effectively trying to use patent laws to prevent competition, a big no-no according to the Sherman Antitrust Act.
The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.
There has to be some wrongdoing for there to be any antitrust action. If Apple has truly been victimized, they've simply defended their patents successfully. If a good chunk of the competition victimized Apple, their liability to suffer consequences is incidental.
Yeah but why have a 3-6month refresh cycle?
Most customers can't upgrade for 18-24months, so you end up with a ton of stale hardware sat on shelves and wasted time and effort on R&D
I think there are two theories. One is that it reduces the "oldness" of the last model. I wouldn't buy an iPhone in April because 1) it is 9/10-months old technology and 2) the new one is coming. But if there were models in May and Nov, the max age of the old model is only 4/5-months, so I might be more willing to buy it even though the new one is coming.
The other theory is that you can get more marketing mileage out of "NEW", even if it isn't that much "newer" than the previous model.
Personally, I think Apple could work it its big software release in June, but follow it with another not-as-big-but-still-significant software release in Jan/Feb. This year and last, there's not been much in any of the .x point releases.
Apple just three years ago had essentially ZERO presence in the cellphone market. The iPhone is one of the highest growth products for the company, and within a few years could reach over 30% of all new "smart" cellphones sold out there.
I do think the Feds and possibly EU antitrust authorities should start being concerned because Apple's lawsuit against HTC is essentially a lawsuit by proxy against the Google Android cellphone operating system, trying to not only intimidate HTC but also LG, NOKIA, Samsung and Sony Ericcson (the four biggest cellphone makers in the world) and by proxy Google, too. Given the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases I cited earlier, Apple is effectively trying to use patent laws to prevent competition, a big no-no according to the Sherman Antitrust Act.
Well, Nokia is still about 40% of the smartphone market, so if Apple got to 30%, well, they'd still be less!
And Nokia has already filed a patent suit against other cellphone makers (uh, that would be Apple). So if what you say is valid, why haven't there been any rumblings abut the Feds and EU antitrust authorities going after them? Isn't Nokia using patent laws to prevent competition? Or is it because what you're saying is nonsense - as neither Nokia or Apple are anywhere near monopolies.
Or maybe, there are just special rules dreamed up for Apple.
It's only a matter of time. Just wait. If anybody thinks the Europeans are going to sit back and watch Nokia get decimated they are fooling themselves. The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.
And as I said above, then that should apply to Nokia too, shouldn't it?
Especially since Nokia's patents are even more basic to cellphones, including smartphones.
Exactly what is it that Apple is copying? If it's happening "like crazy", it should be easy to give lots of examples with info to back it up.
Nokia's lawsuit against Apple is a recent example. Apple blatantly ripped off Nokia's IP. And that's just a small part of it. The technologies needed to build a modern phone are patented, and Apple simply trampled all over other people's IP when entering the market.
And when Apple has lost, they've paid up.
No way! Do you really think they have a choice?
So the only reason to protect one's IP is to make life difficult for competitors?
No, but in this case, that's exactly what it is about. The proof is in the pudding.
And by going after HTC, Apple is really going after other manufacturers is some odd, circuitous fashion that has nothing to do with actually protecting one's property, selling products or HTC?
No, they want to attack Android because they see Android as a huge threat.
By that logic then you could say the creation of the iPhone was because Apple wanted to make life difficult for manufacturers who want to sell phones.
Not at all.
And let's not forget Apple's shameful and disgusting behavior in the W3C, blocking the progress of open standards with frivolous patent claims! Apple is clearly feeling the heat, and are becoming desperate.
Nokia's lawsuit against Apple is a recent example. Apple blatantly ripped off Nokia's IP. And that's just a small part of it. The technologies needed to build a modern phone are patented, and Apple simply trampled all over other people's IP when entering the market.
Examples, please?
Apple just three years ago had essentially ZERO presence in the cellphone market. The iPhone is one of the highest growth products for the company, and within a few years could reach over 30% of all new "smart" cellphones sold out there.
I do think the Feds and possibly EU antitrust authorities should start being concerned because Apple's lawsuit against HTC is essentially a lawsuit by proxy against the Google Android cellphone operating system, trying to not only intimidate HTC but also LG, NOKIA, Samsung and Sony Ericcson (the four biggest cellphone makers in the world) and by proxy Google, too. Given the US v. United Shoe Machinery Company cases I cited earlier, Apple is effectively trying to use patent laws to prevent competition, a big no-no according to the Sherman Antitrust Act.
Apple's certainly not trying to stifle competition, they're trying to protect their intellectual property. Apple spent 10 years and billions of dollars to develop the iPod/iPhone/iPad and to simply let others cherry pick what they want is ridiculous.
Sure, companies borrow and are influenced by others' designs, that's just the way everything works. BUT, when one sees blatant and direct copies of the iPhone, down to the the shape, color and surface finishes, even the home screen and icons and other interface elements... it's a wonder that Apple waited so long to go after the thieves.
Nokia has filed suit (and lodged a complaint with the International Trade Commission (ITC)) against Apple for what they claim is infringement by Apple of ten patents Nokia has applied to various mobile (under GSM/UMTS) and WiFi standards. Nokia has provided licensing of these patents under a standards pooling agreement the terms of which are fair and reasonable licensing terms to any company that wishes to use it and pay the established licensing fees, or in some cases, completely free and open.
Apple's countersuit and counter complaint with the ITC against Nokia claims infringement of 13 of Apple's patents and charges Nokia with not only demanding higher licensing fees for the ten standards-related patents from Apple but also demanding access to Apple's proprietary patents as a part of its own licensing terms with Apple.
The issues and allegations are plain - Nokia wants Apple to pay above and beyond the "fair, reasonable and non-discrimintory" fees required by being part of the patent pool for GSM technologies, up to and including proprietary patents that Apple holds that are of interest to Nokia.
You can in fact look at Apple's countersuit here: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/19291155...s=ZTY0Yy00OWE4
Now stop being silly and deal with the actual facts
It's only a matter of time. Just wait. If anybody thinks the Europeans are going to sit back and watch Nokia get decimated they are fooling themselves. The way I see it, with every patent suit that Apple brings (particularly related to iPhone patents) and wins, the closer they bring themselves to the magical threshold for anti-trust action against themselves.
Remember what I said: Apple's market growth for new cellphones has been spectacular, and they could approaching 1/3 of the entire world's market for "smart" cellphones within two years.
There's a famous quote from an early Spider-Man comic, "With great power comes great responsibility." Apple now wields tremendous influence in the cellphone market, but it needs to act as a responsible corporation with such a fast-growing market share. Apple in its suit against HTC is essentially a "shot across the bow" against Google and the four major cellphone manufacturers--LG, Nokia, Samsung and Sony Ericsson--in an attempt to stop the widespread distribution of "smart" touchscreen cellphones based on Google Android cellphone OS. That is approaching the point of potential patent abuse to eliminate a potential competitor, and I don't think Google, the four cellphone manufacturers I mentioned, or antitrust authorities in the USA and the EU will stand by idly!
Nokia's lawsuit against Apple is a recent example. Apple blatantly ripped off Nokia's IP. And that's just a small part of it. The technologies needed to build a modern phone are patented, and Apple simply trampled all over other people's IP when entering the market.
I guess you didn't bother to read any part of that suit, and is just mouthing some nonsense picked up from the Internet.
If you had read it, you'd know that Apple claims that Nokia is attempting to charge Apple (and only Apple) higher rates than it's charging others for use of its patented technology, AND that Nokia's not allowed to do this since they submitted this technology to a standards body to be included in the GSM Standards, which requires that they offer licensing on a Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory (FRAND) basis. Thus, Apple has refused to agree to pay the higher rates. And that's why Nokia sued.
Apple made it very clear that they are willing to pay FRAND rates - so that there is no intent to "rip off Nokia's IP."