Is total sensationalist crap written by someone who CLEARLY doesn't do web development.
Hey alkrantz, what was soooo sensationalistic in the original article? The article only states a few real problems with using Flash (like scalable readability!). I doubt the author was trying to write a dissertation.
Here's what I would like you to do for the "idiots" (me included) here on AI.
Post 5 links to websites that MUST use Flash, and where it is needed and better than ANY HTML/CSS, PHP, Java equivalent or alternative.
Caveat: Those 5 links may not be a Flash game, nor may Flash be considered "needed" because of embedded video.
It's mostly in regards to HTML5 replacing Flash for video that is of most people's concerns... well at least here on AI. The other peeve is with the ads. However, regardless of platform or coding language, ads are here with us to stay.
Interactive learning sites for children is also of my concern, but Adobe has already stated that Flash CS5 will more than likely be able to write stand-alone apps for those developers wishing to port their sites/games to Apple mobile devices.
My personal argument against Flash, is when sites use it for (what could be) simple navigation using HTML/CSS. If effects are absolutely needed, a number of Java Frameworks can do that. Also if you need dynamic database content, Java and PHP are well suited to the task.
Hell... just show me 1 (one) site that needs Flash navigation at all!
Here's some links to new coding frameworks and interactive sites that don't use Flash, that you may find interesting:
280 Slides ... Give this a try! Pretty cool stuff.
BTW: can someone try the 280slides site on an iPhone? I don't have one, but can only "soft-proof" by changing the User Agent in Safari to iPhone 3.1.2 on my Mac. Just curious.
I'm not a big fan of flash (I have to sign on with a Guest account to watch some websites! can someone help me?), but couldn't Virgin just check what browser the visitor is using? If it's a computer, use Flash. If it's a mobile device, don't use flash?
I'm probably missing something.
Problem with this is they'll have to maintain 2 versions of their sites. And that's never an easy task.
Also by switching to Javascript/HTML they saves A LOT of bandwidth in the process. yay!
my company switched to Jquery, and you can't believe how much we save on bandwidth.
I'm not against Flash for providing advanced multimedia. It's a powerful package. But for presenting normal information such as flights, news, information of any kind I think it makes sense to use html standards.
Most web sites would do totally fine without Flash.
I love Flash ads! With Click-to-Flash I can disable all the ads.
If they give up Flash I will have to view them again.
I totally agree with your worries about this, and I'm surprised it's not brought up more often.
Flash is unnecessary in most cases, CPU intensive, battery-sucking, and more often than not the ads are frustratingly distracting. So Click-to-Flash is a savior. I couldn't live without it.
So you can count me in the "I Hate Flash Fanclub". But I'm scared of the alternative, which may very well be even worse: flashing, scrolling, annoying HTML5 ads that we can no longer easily selectively block/unblock! And don't put it past ad devs to build crappy HTML5 ads that chews up CPU as well.
Hey alkrantz, what was soooo sensationalistic in the original article? The article only states a few real problems with using Flash (like scalable readability!). I doubt the author was trying to write a dissertation.
Here's what I would like you to do for the "idiots" (me included) here on AI.
Post 5 links to websites that MUST use Flash, and where it is needed and better than ANY HTML/CSS, PHP, Java equivalent or alternative.
Caveat: Those 5 links may not be a Flash game, nor may Flash be considered "needed" because of embedded video.
It's mostly in regards to HTML5 replacing Flash for video that is of most people's concerns... well at least here on AI. The other peeve is with the ads. However, regardless of platform or coding language, ads are here with us to stay.
Interactive learning sites for children is also of my concern, but Adobe has already stated that Flash CS5 will more than likely be able to write stand-alone apps for those developers wishing to port their sites/games to Apple mobile devices.
My personal argument against Flash, is when sites use it for (what could be) simple navigation using HTML/CSS. If effects are absolutely needed, a number of Java Frameworks can do that. Also if you need dynamic database content, Java and PHP are well suited to the task.
Hell... just show me 1 (one) site that needs Flash navigation at all!
Here's some links to new coding frameworks and interactive sites that don't use Flash, that you may find interesting:
280 Slides ... Give this a try! Pretty cool stuff.
BTW: can someone try the 280slides site on an iPhone? I don't have one, but can only "soft-proof" by changing the User Agent in Safari to iPhone 3.1.2 on my Mac. Just curious.
I will absolutely respond to this! Can't wait in fact. However I'm in a training session all day today so it will probably have to be later tonight but maybe I can find some time over lunch.
It's been around for nearly 2 years now, I think. I was hooked on it last summer, and quit cold turkey, leaving my guild members totally lost, I suppose. Works fine on the iPhone OS, though interface elements are certainly small, almost too small to be utilized properly at times. But it's a good example of how AJAX can be used to create simpler games like Farmville optimized for small devices.
Okay flash haters, how do you make flash style games in HTML5/CSS? Show me a demo, impress me.
There are plenty of games made with HTML/CSS/JS. But that isn't the issue, it's not about hating Flash, it's about Adobe being too lazy to innovate that they now have a bloated plugin that doesn't operate well on capacitance touchscreens.
How are you going to use a game that was designed for a mouse and keyboard on a 15"+ display with only your finger on a 3.5" display?
This is why we're into the 3rd month in 2010 and Adobe still has no shipping solution of Flash for modern mobiles. They've had years before and during the iPhone's reign to ready this for other platforms, yet there is nothing but a handful of demos.
Once it comes out all those Flash games will have to be rewritten to work on a small display with fingers on a touchscreen. I doubt they can resolve all game issues in code so you'll likely see Flash devs making games specifically designed for the small screen and input type.
I think Virgin is making the a good decision for two reasons. First, they really don't require any of the more complex features of Flash and second by the very nature of their business, they obviously have a need to cater to the mobile crowd in as light-wieght a way as possible. I suspect we will see a lot of similar circumstances moving towards using the HTML5 video tag.
All that being said most of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Unlike Flash or Silverlight, which are presentational and therefore deliver a fixed view for users to experience, the Web's native HTML only describes content semantically, so users and their browser can interpret how they want to experience that information.
.....
Is total sensationalist crap written by someone who CLEARLY doesn't do web development.
Finally a voice of reason. Thanks for that well written, level-headed response.
The real reason Apple doesn't want Flash on the iPhone is it would let developers circumvent the App Store. Adobe's CEO said this same thing last week.
A lot of people really fail to understand that "Flash != Video" and Flash provides developers with a lot of capabilities like VOIP, Chat, 2D vector graphics, print-quality fonts, dynamic digital rights that are out of scope for HTML5 and oh-yeah: it provides cross-platform, cross-device, cross-OS reach which is getting more and more important instead of less. Flash 10.1 optimized for mobile, will be on 19 of 20 smartphones by the end of the year.
So - you could interpret all of this as Apple is trying, Microsoft-style, to lock developers inside a walled-garden so they can extract revenue from their activities.
Ie., it is not a technical issue and it really isn't about Flash being a CPU hog on Mac. (prediction: Flash player 10.1 will run as well on Mac as it does on the PC.)
Take a look at "The Open Screen Project" -- Consortium of TV, mobile devices and hardware providers are building and optimizing their systems for Flash. E.g., Intel announcing SoC platforms that are optimized for Flash and targeting mobile devices and TVs. One of the videos on the site shows Flash-based rich internet applications running on multiple mobile devices.
Adobe actually puts a lot of effort into international standards (PDF is now ISO 32000, ActionScript and ECMA javascript are on a convergence path...) and they have a lot of open source projects underway. Sure companies do exist to make money, but they also get started by developers who are passionate about what they do and the value they provide to their customers. There's a tradeoff between developing a standard by a committee process vs building an innovative proprietary system that you control and can adjust as needed to react to a changing landscape. When a technology is still undergoing rapid change/evolution it makes more sense to keep it proprietary. Once it has matured it makes sense to offer it up to the standardization process.
So, yes it's a war, but no it's not anywhere near a conclusion. It's really just the opening sprint of what's likely to be a marathon. The mobile web is in its infancy and networked TVs are still incubuating. Flash isn't going away anytime soon.
Seriously? The extent of interactivity on Virgin America homepage was a couple of images that slid left and right, and somehow this is some huge blow to Flash? Really? I think we're grasping at straws here people. What's worse, the article is just plain wrong. As far as I can tell, Flash has been removed from the homepage... not the entire site. Visit the route maps link here: http://www.virginamerica.com/va/trav...emap_right_bar ... Flash. Even do it on a iPhone... nice little link prompting you to download the flash plugin.
Seriously? You went scrounging around on every page on their site to find one - ONE - page with Flash on it?! One out of probably 30-50+ pages? Yes, that page has Flash, but it's a buried secondary page that is not critical to using their site or services. As the CTO said, in the future they will explore HTML5 in the future to create and re-create Flash on the site.
Did you even read the article, this VERY MUCH conected to Apple, Virgin is doing this to make their site more iPhone accessible. Oh wait, you're one of those 'troll' things people always mention... congrats for pulling me off-sides, I guess.
Crazy! You are from India and you are okay with my unabashed beef eating but take issue with me extolling the elegance of Flash. What sacrilege! Holy Cow.
Maybe if my religion was Hinduism, then I would take offense, but not every Indian is. Some are Muslims, Christians and Buddhism.
Stereotyping people is very bad even if it is joke, know your cultures, I know yours, get to know mine.
Seriously? You went scrounging around on every page on their site to find one - ONE - page with Flash on it?! One out of probably 30-50+ pages? Yes, that page has Flash, but it's a buried secondary page that is not critical to using their site or services. As the CTO said, in the future they will explore HTML5 in the future to create and re-create Flash on the site.
Did you even read the article, this VERY MUCH conected to Apple, Virgin is doing this to make their site more iPhone accessible. Oh wait, you're one of those 'troll' things people always mention... congrats for pulling me off-sides, I guess.
lol it wasn't some obscure page though. VirginAmerica.com > Flying With Us > Route Map
3 clicks :P
Actually, I'm really interested to see them convert that page to html5 so we can all use it as an example in the future. If the functionality can't be fully copied, or they are forced to re-do it in a different way, it's something to take note of.
Comments
It's a work-in-progress. That's why it's called Beta.
According to http://www.youtube.com/html5 full screen support was added on 1/27/2010.
I've tried the most recent browser releases plus latest nightlies but can't get any of them to go fullscreen.
The only successful HTML5/JS fullscreen video test is from the Sublime video, but with recent WebKit nightlies.
Is total sensationalist crap written by someone who CLEARLY doesn't do web development.
Hey alkrantz, what was soooo sensationalistic in the original article? The article only states a few real problems with using Flash (like scalable readability!). I doubt the author was trying to write a dissertation.
Here's what I would like you to do for the "idiots" (me included) here on AI.
Post 5 links to websites that MUST use Flash, and where it is needed and better than ANY HTML/CSS, PHP, Java equivalent or alternative.
Caveat: Those 5 links may not be a Flash game, nor may Flash be considered "needed" because of embedded video.
It's mostly in regards to HTML5 replacing Flash for video that is of most people's concerns... well at least here on AI. The other peeve is with the ads. However, regardless of platform or coding language, ads are here with us to stay.
Interactive learning sites for children is also of my concern, but Adobe has already stated that Flash CS5 will more than likely be able to write stand-alone apps for those developers wishing to port their sites/games to Apple mobile devices.
My personal argument against Flash, is when sites use it for (what could be) simple navigation using HTML/CSS. If effects are absolutely needed, a number of Java Frameworks can do that. Also if you need dynamic database content, Java and PHP are well suited to the task.
Hell... just show me 1 (one) site that needs Flash navigation at all!
Here's some links to new coding frameworks and interactive sites that don't use Flash, that you may find interesting:
Cappucino
Mockingbird Wire frame Web development Tool
...and the best of all...
280 Slides ... Give this a try! Pretty cool stuff.
BTW: can someone try the 280slides site on an iPhone? I don't have one, but can only "soft-proof" by changing the User Agent in Safari to iPhone 3.1.2 on my Mac. Just curious.
I'm not a big fan of flash (I have to sign on with a Guest account to watch some websites! can someone help me?), but couldn't Virgin just check what browser the visitor is using? If it's a computer, use Flash. If it's a mobile device, don't use flash?
I'm probably missing something.
Problem with this is they'll have to maintain 2 versions of their sites. And that's never an easy task.
Also by switching to Javascript/HTML they saves A LOT of bandwidth in the process. yay!
my company switched to Jquery, and you can't believe how much we save on bandwidth.
Most web sites would do totally fine without Flash.
I love Flash ads! With Click-to-Flash I can disable all the ads.
If they give up Flash I will have to view them again.
I totally agree with your worries about this, and I'm surprised it's not brought up more often.
Flash is unnecessary in most cases, CPU intensive, battery-sucking, and more often than not the ads are frustratingly distracting. So Click-to-Flash is a savior. I couldn't live without it.
So you can count me in the "I Hate Flash Fanclub". But I'm scared of the alternative, which may very well be even worse: flashing, scrolling, annoying HTML5 ads that we can no longer easily selectively block/unblock! And don't put it past ad devs to build crappy HTML5 ads that chews up CPU as well.
Are most people just not looking this far ahead?
How is this possible? I thought all 'real' web content was flash-based, or is that just for 13 year olds and porn addicts?
If every flash content was QUALITY like Machinarium...
Hey alkrantz, what was soooo sensationalistic in the original article? The article only states a few real problems with using Flash (like scalable readability!). I doubt the author was trying to write a dissertation.
Here's what I would like you to do for the "idiots" (me included) here on AI.
Post 5 links to websites that MUST use Flash, and where it is needed and better than ANY HTML/CSS, PHP, Java equivalent or alternative.
Caveat: Those 5 links may not be a Flash game, nor may Flash be considered "needed" because of embedded video.
It's mostly in regards to HTML5 replacing Flash for video that is of most people's concerns... well at least here on AI. The other peeve is with the ads. However, regardless of platform or coding language, ads are here with us to stay.
Interactive learning sites for children is also of my concern, but Adobe has already stated that Flash CS5 will more than likely be able to write stand-alone apps for those developers wishing to port their sites/games to Apple mobile devices.
My personal argument against Flash, is when sites use it for (what could be) simple navigation using HTML/CSS. If effects are absolutely needed, a number of Java Frameworks can do that. Also if you need dynamic database content, Java and PHP are well suited to the task.
Hell... just show me 1 (one) site that needs Flash navigation at all!
Here's some links to new coding frameworks and interactive sites that don't use Flash, that you may find interesting:
Cappucino
Mockingbird Wire frame Web development Tool
...and the best of all...
280 Slides ... Give this a try! Pretty cool stuff.
BTW: can someone try the 280slides site on an iPhone? I don't have one, but can only "soft-proof" by changing the User Agent in Safari to iPhone 3.1.2 on my Mac. Just curious.
I will absolutely respond to this! Can't wait in fact. However I'm in a training session all day today so it will probably have to be later tonight
HTML5 is not open source and you still have to license it to legally use it.
Huh?!
Okay flash haters, how do you make flash style games in HTML5/CSS? Show me a demo, impress me.
www.travians.com
It's been around for nearly 2 years now, I think. I was hooked on it last summer, and quit cold turkey, leaving my guild members totally lost, I suppose. Works fine on the iPhone OS, though interface elements are certainly small, almost too small to be utilized properly at times. But it's a good example of how AJAX can be used to create simpler games like Farmville optimized for small devices.
Huh?!
Don't you know, you can't build a website using HTML5 unless you license it. I think you can get on at your local courthouse.
Okay flash haters, how do you make flash style games in HTML5/CSS? Show me a demo, impress me.
There are plenty of games made with HTML/CSS/JS. But that isn't the issue, it's not about hating Flash, it's about Adobe being too lazy to innovate that they now have a bloated plugin that doesn't operate well on capacitance touchscreens.
How are you going to use a game that was designed for a mouse and keyboard on a 15"+ display with only your finger on a 3.5" display?
This is why we're into the 3rd month in 2010 and Adobe still has no shipping solution of Flash for modern mobiles. They've had years before and during the iPhone's reign to ready this for other platforms, yet there is nothing but a handful of demos.
Once it comes out all those Flash games will have to be rewritten to work on a small display with fingers on a touchscreen. I doubt they can resolve all game issues in code so you'll likely see Flash devs making games specifically designed for the small screen and input type.
I think Virgin is making the a good decision for two reasons. First, they really don't require any of the more complex features of Flash and second by the very nature of their business, they obviously have a need to cater to the mobile crowd in as light-wieght a way as possible. I suspect we will see a lot of similar circumstances moving towards using the HTML5 video tag.
All that being said most of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
Unlike Flash or Silverlight, which are presentational and therefore deliver a fixed view for users to experience, the Web's native HTML only describes content semantically, so users and their browser can interpret how they want to experience that information.
.....
Is total sensationalist crap written by someone who CLEARLY doesn't do web development.
Finally a voice of reason. Thanks for that well written, level-headed response.
The real reason Apple doesn't want Flash on the iPhone is it would let developers circumvent the App Store. Adobe's CEO said this same thing last week.
A lot of people really fail to understand that "Flash != Video" and Flash provides developers with a lot of capabilities like VOIP, Chat, 2D vector graphics, print-quality fonts, dynamic digital rights that are out of scope for HTML5 and oh-yeah: it provides cross-platform, cross-device, cross-OS reach which is getting more and more important instead of less. Flash 10.1 optimized for mobile, will be on 19 of 20 smartphones by the end of the year.
So - you could interpret all of this as Apple is trying, Microsoft-style, to lock developers inside a walled-garden so they can extract revenue from their activities.
Ie., it is not a technical issue and it really isn't about Flash being a CPU hog on Mac. (prediction: Flash player 10.1 will run as well on Mac as it does on the PC.)
Take a look at "The Open Screen Project" -- Consortium of TV, mobile devices and hardware providers are building and optimizing their systems for Flash. E.g., Intel announcing SoC platforms that are optimized for Flash and targeting mobile devices and TVs. One of the videos on the site shows Flash-based rich internet applications running on multiple mobile devices.
Adobe actually puts a lot of effort into international standards (PDF is now ISO 32000, ActionScript and ECMA javascript are on a convergence path...) and they have a lot of open source projects underway. Sure companies do exist to make money, but they also get started by developers who are passionate about what they do and the value they provide to their customers. There's a tradeoff between developing a standard by a committee process vs building an innovative proprietary system that you control and can adjust as needed to react to a changing landscape. When a technology is still undergoing rapid change/evolution it makes more sense to keep it proprietary. Once it has matured it makes sense to offer it up to the standardization process.
So, yes it's a war, but no it's not anywhere near a conclusion. It's really just the opening sprint of what's likely to be a marathon. The mobile web is in its infancy and networked TVs are still incubuating. Flash isn't going away anytime soon.
In fact, anytime there's critical information on a website, it should always be presented in the most commonly handled format available.
The difference between WM and iphone OS: If Virgin didn't drop flash, WM phones could still get to the info.
Seriously? The extent of interactivity on Virgin America homepage was a couple of images that slid left and right, and somehow this is some huge blow to Flash? Really? I think we're grasping at straws here people. What's worse, the article is just plain wrong. As far as I can tell, Flash has been removed from the homepage... not the entire site. Visit the route maps link here: http://www.virginamerica.com/va/trav...emap_right_bar ... Flash. Even do it on a iPhone... nice little link prompting you to download the flash plugin.
Seriously? You went scrounging around on every page on their site to find one - ONE - page with Flash on it?! One out of probably 30-50+ pages? Yes, that page has Flash, but it's a buried secondary page that is not critical to using their site or services. As the CTO said, in the future they will explore HTML5 in the future to create and re-create Flash on the site.
Did you even read the article, this VERY MUCH conected to Apple, Virgin is doing this to make their site more iPhone accessible. Oh wait, you're one of those 'troll' things people always mention... congrats for pulling me off-sides, I guess.
Crazy! You are from India and you are okay with my unabashed beef eating but take issue with me extolling the elegance of Flash. What sacrilege! Holy Cow.
Maybe if my religion was Hinduism, then I would take offense, but not every Indian is. Some are Muslims, Christians and Buddhism.
Stereotyping people is very bad even if it is joke, know your cultures, I know yours, get to know mine.
Seriously? You went scrounging around on every page on their site to find one - ONE - page with Flash on it?! One out of probably 30-50+ pages? Yes, that page has Flash, but it's a buried secondary page that is not critical to using their site or services. As the CTO said, in the future they will explore HTML5 in the future to create and re-create Flash on the site.
Did you even read the article, this VERY MUCH conected to Apple, Virgin is doing this to make their site more iPhone accessible. Oh wait, you're one of those 'troll' things people always mention... congrats for pulling me off-sides, I guess.
lol it wasn't some obscure page though. VirginAmerica.com > Flying With Us > Route Map
3 clicks :P
Actually, I'm really interested to see them convert that page to html5 so we can all use it as an example in the future. If the functionality can't be fully copied, or they are forced to re-do it in a different way, it's something to take note of.