You have decided that our debate is about me having the belief that Flash is always needed when its used.
No I haven't. I took issue with the fact you came out and said that you don't listen to site visitors as a developer.
I used Flash as an example of what developers do - forcing non-essential stuff on visitors simply because you can.
The fact of the matter is that by not listening to visitors you will lose visitors which defeats the purpose of the websites.
I visit the sites I like solely for content. If their website has a UI that I don't like I might overlook it because of the content. I don't care if it's a complex layout or a simple textual layout so long as the content is good. If not no matter how cool the site looks it's NOT going to get me coming back. For me it's aways Content over Design. If the site has both then cool but if the content lacks then bye bye. So NO, I don't like sites for their design.
" So this is just a personal rant about the AI users? May I ask why we should give a flyin' F*** what you think about us?
Good point, I don't actually care about you at all. As I already stated I like Apple and thats why I come to this site. I was just pointing out that this article was full of misinformation. Which it is. If you want to know why I think that find my first post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
To tell ya the truth, you can develop as many Flash sites as your heart desires
This is exactly my point. First, as I have already stated, I develop all sort of NON flash sites. But the idea that you would opposed to anything that uses Flash based solely on the idea that it uses Flash, or assume that all I develop are Flash sites because I am defending Flash, goes to show that you don't actually care about how effective it is or isn't at accomplishing a particular goal. You are just diametrically opposed regardless. You have decided in your mind that it's bad and as a result even if there were a good solution you wouldn't be able to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
I don't think this is the only website that has Apple users commenting about their "distaste" for Flash. Why the hate here for AI posters? Are you repeating this rant at 9to5, Macworld, MacNN, MacFixIt, et al?
While that is true to a degree. This site is in the worst that I visit. There seems to be a Flash is dying article here every week. I am not the only visitor who has commented about this, and I still believe the reason behind it has more to do with driving traffic than actual journalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
is that you have to create an experience for the user that takes the tech side out of the equation and makes tech transparent to the user….. Flash does not do that.
It is by using such finite statements that it becomes clear you believe Flash is inherently flawed and thus it is set up for failure in your mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
I've owned my own business for some 30 years. On a Mac since Summer of '84 and using version 1 of almost every design program every created, including all of Adobe's and Macromedia's (Altsys). Throw in a handful of years with WinNT, XP, and 2000... plus developing internet awareness and design since 1994 (the Mosaic and 14.4 modem years). At every step, I've been successful, as well have my clients, by being aware of what's coming next, and keeping up with advances in tech. Tech is admittedly my hobby... design and image consulting is my business.
Doh….sorry, out of cookies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
MS lost me as a fan completely some 5 years ago, after becoming seriously frustrated with my "tech-hobby" creating far too many lost days of frustration to cleaning registries, defragging, and "normal" Windows maintenance tasks.
Windows 7 is a great OS actually. But I believe this statement is again indicative of the real issue you have. Which is simply that once you have decided a technology is not good, than it can never be good and is always outdated. In reality. That isn't true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
Woah! Nice back-out there!
OK....so when ya get back from work, please (with a cherry on top?)...show us just 1 site then that needs Flash (other than a game or video). Just 1 (one). If ya can't do that much, I would say we here at AI are correct that Flash is not needed... and maybe I should reconsider my openess towards Flash for "some" things (at the present at least), and wish it to die as well.
I don't HATE Flash. I DO hate when any tech and code is not used efficiently, and/or for a specific feature that will add value to the experience. IF there's a way to make anything better, faster, and reach more people with less hassle... that's my path.
HTML5..? Who cares? If it's "Sheng Fui 13"* and it works across platforms and devices... use it! (*intentional misspelling)
I find it funny that you feel the necessity to ask me exclude anything if you really believe that Flash should never be used. There are actually people who love Flash games and that crappy JS example posted the other day doesn't really measure up. But I will humor you, and post no games, I am not sure if your distaste for flash games disqualifies sites like Blizzards wow-armory which is a fantastic use of integrating Flash and a data base, you can check that out here:
Could this be done with something else? Probably. Would it be even half as easy. I doubt it. Would it export to a desktop app as well. No.
For those of you who like to know why developers use Flash I will give you a couple of reasons. To begin with the ubiquity is great. If you actually know how to code, and take care of things like garbage collection, Flash can run great on Windows and OSX. I know many of you will not believe that. But it's true. The reason many of you do not believe that is because Adobe has made Flash so easy to use that many people who create web content don't even actually know what garbage collection is. And by many, I mean millions.
I see the only currently real viable alternative to Flash as JS. I have used JS many times, particularly JQuery which I love, and its a great technology, but the truth of it is, it is so much harder to achieve the same level of cross browser compliance and still get the same interactivity, as a result the cost/benefit often leans towards using Flash. Also, keep in mind that while I write code, there are a lot of people who DONT write code and still want to create content for the web. They CANT use JS. JS simply isn't that easy to do. Frame by frame animation is actually all these people have available. Its slow, its chunky, it's CPU intensive. But they want there stuff on the web (and who are we to say they cant) and no-one (I'm looking at you Adobe, wink wink) has made an IDE that makes it as easy to publish to the web for someone who has no idea what they are doing as Flash is.
In the end though, I think this whole debate is about a few different things simultaneously.
First, is the fanboy mentality. This is what leads people to definitive decisions and biases. The idea that something HAS to be bad NO MATTER WHAT FOREVER. It's just so childish. There is hardly anything in the world that would qualify as such. Most things are at times good and at times bad. Depending on how they are used. Flash is no different. Even the banner ads you hate are good to some.
The second problem here is gullibility. The reason I post here is because AI has recently become the Tabloid of Apple news, I have been following this site for years and never posted until recently, because it seems like there has been a proliferation of completely off-base crap journalism And yes, in my opinion it is worse than MacRumors, MacCNN etc…
The third issue, and I believe the real issue that ALL of us should be discussing is this:
What should the web look like?
Many of you believe that the web doesn't need Flash, not because you have a problem with it being proprietary. Although you may tell yourself that. I mean really, if you don't actually develop for the web or pay for the content than what difference does it make to you if its open source or proprietary. All you SHOULD care about in that regard is if the content is valuable or not.
Here is what I believe is really happening, many people, simply want the web to be source of information. Just information.
Other people, want the web to be a source of entertainment. Just entertainment. These are the people who spend 50+ hours a week playing Mafia Wars.
Others want a little of both.
But where is the web ACTUALLY going?
Here is something to think about. The mobile web, is NOT the final frontier of our generation. Actually, its Television. Yup, that old thing in the corner that you never look at anymore unless its the SupersBowl, your PS3 or a blu-ray DVD. The thing you think HULU has replaced. I don't know exactly when, but I do know that soon enough, EVERY SINGLE TV YOU BUY will have FULL UNBRIDLED internet access. And users will expect the internet to behave in the exact same glorious HD, animated interstitials, 3d identity tags, CNN situation room way.. that they see on TV today. Accomplishing content creation like this isn't going to be easy, in fact its going to take tools beyond what Flash, Java, JQuery or any other tool technology has to offer today, tools that make PaperVision look like Mario Bros.
Do me a favor, go watch Sports Center, look at the intro to the show. Then ask yourself how you would do that in PHP or Javascript. Hell, even in Flash it would be impossible. Right now all we have is video. But people don't just want fancy animations, they want fancy animations they can interact with.
What's that you say? You don't need those animations? NEWS FLASH: YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING ALL PEOPLE
And this is the basic crux of this debate at its core level. You either believe that people want this or you don't. You either see the web as a place where animations, games, flashing bright things aren't needed. Or you see the web as a ever growing medium that is becoming more and more interactive with every day, more and more CPU intensive, more and more animated and alive.
I believe the later, which is why I appreciate what Flash has done and can do. When I hear statements about how animated banner ads are terrible or flash games are pointless, or who cares about navigation that can animate or looks fancy, I just want it to give me content, then I know I am dealing with someone who doesn't understand that lots of people do care. Not only do they care but they want more of it. Maybe YOU don't care, but ALOT of other people do. Google "Why can't I get flash on my iPhone" sometime instead of "Flash sucks" and you will see what I'm talking about.
Developers are not concerned about how to develop for the iPhone, because we don't have to be. In fact it takes no new technology what-so-ever. It is a step backward for web development and mobile itself is only a step towards what people really want.
What people want is access. Access to information all the time everywhere. Access to entertainment all the time everywhere. They want it how they want it. They don't want you to say they cant have it because the device doesn't support it, or because it has been decided that it isn't really necessary. These are the same people who think that commercial you cant stand is funny.
Anyway, /endrant.
I know, that I will never really convince anyone. But hopefully, some of you (flamers aside) will visit this forum and actually get some REAL information. Because I stand by the statement that this article, and more often lately AI itself, is trite, trash, sensationalist journalism.
I don't get it. Apple is so determined to pull the rug out from Adobe on flash for open standards when Apple itself is a lover of its own closed proprietary systems... the irony.
Although, I have to admit, the removal of Flash is all good news to me.
I don't get it. Apple is so determined to pull the rug out from Adobe on flash for open standards when Apple itself is a lover of its own closed proprietary systems... the irony.
Although, I have to admit, the removal of Flash is all good news to me.
But Apple has never said they're rejecting Flash "for open standards." They've repeatedly said it's for performance issues.
...yes, Thank You Allkranz! Good job and I appreciate your effort in coming back and showing us some good reasons why Flash is a valid dev tool and technology. Really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkrantz
Good point, I don't actually care about you at all. As I already stated I like Apple and thats why I come to this site. I was just pointing out that this article was full of misinformation. Which it is. If you want to know why I think that find my first post.
Actually, I went back and read the original article, and I don't see the misinformation that you obviously do. HOWEVER... see below.
Quote:
While that is true to a degree. This site is in the worst that I visit. There seems to be a Flash is dying article here every week. I am not the only visitor who has commented about this, and I still believe the reason behind it has more to do with driving traffic than actual journalism.
I will agree with you here regarding sensationalist journalism and "click-whoring". I've accused Macworld of this over the last few months as well.
At one point I was going to do the same here, considering that a number of topics and replies to the forum, almost ALWAYS repeat what has already been said ad-nauseum in previous threads.
Hey AI: is there really no way to aggregate the topics and responses within the Forum? Or am I too old and dumb to figure it out from the CP panel?
Quote:
It is by using such finite statements that it becomes clear you believe Flash is inherently flawed and thus it is set up for failure in your mind.
By no means. I sincerely have been hoping for news from the Adobe camp, and from Apple, that they have worked out their differences, and most of all that Adobe has created/updated Flash to reconcile the concerns that many have with using it: CPU and power consumption being the largest complaint. Also, as with Adobe's Acrobat, closing the security weaknesses.... especially for the mobile versions of their plug-ins. All computer, mobile, and web users would benefit... dontcha think?
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Doh?.sorry, out of cookies.
...too bad, coulda used a sugar-shot about now
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Windows 7 is a great OS actually. But I believe this statement is again indicative of the real issue you have. Which is simply that once you have decided a technology is not good, than it can never be good and is always outdated. In reality. That isn't true.
Oh no. You've mistaken me completely(!). I'm a staunch believer that what was yesterday, does not mean that tomorrow will not bring pleasant surprises. Apple itself was down in the dumps once upon a time, and I moved on with Windows, hedging my bet and making sure that I could continue in my business, regardless of platform. Again... I want Adobe to improve Flash, and all of their programs. Dying is not my wish here at all.
Quote:
I find it funny that you feel the necessity to ask me exclude anything if you really believe that Flash should never be used. There are actually people who love Flash games and that crappy JS example posted the other day doesn't really measure up. But I will humor you, and post no games, I am not sure if your distaste for flash games disqualifies sites like Blizzards wow-armory which is a fantastic use of integrating Flash and a data base, you can check that out here:
Yes! Certainly OK to include this, considering it has such a huge following! Very nice and useful! And might I add, a reason why the iPad should have Flash so that it can be used as an auxillary device.
Quote:
Here is another example I came across just today actually.
Wow! Impressive. Not sure, but couldn't something like this be coded as an app though? Specifically now that the iPad has some screen real estate to work with?
Quote:
I have also seen some great examples on sites like the NYTImes
Could this be done with something else? Probably. Would it be even half as easy. I doubt it. Would it export to a desktop app as well. No.
This graph is a far better example of Flash being necessary... and I'm not sure if it could be accomplished with anything else. Good find! I agree with all of your points above.
Quote:
The reason many of you do not believe that is because Adobe has made Flash so easy to use that many people who create web content don't even actually know what garbage collection is. And by many, I mean millions.
Now THIS is the meat and potatoes of the problem!!!
Quote:
...But they want there stuff on the web (and who are we to say they cant) and no-one (I'm looking at you Adobe, wink wink) has made an IDE that makes it as easy to publish to the web for someone who has no idea what they are doing as Flash is....
Yes...yes! Rather than winking at Adobe, they really must do this! I've shot queries across the bow whether Apple might have an IDE or program in the wings to facilitate their Open Standard stance. Some where, some one, and some company has to come up with this. Adobe has the lead, with MS not a step behind. It appears that the tech advances have caught both those behemoths still in their winter hibernation. It's Spring... wake up and get coding!
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...First, is the fanboy mentality. ...
Oh please! Name calling and generalization is so childish! You should try to rise above that if you're an adult.
Quote:
The third issue, and I believe the real issue that ALL of us should be discussing is this:
What should the web look like?....
Any one interested in your rather knowledgeable and agreeable view can read above without completely quoting it again.
I'd just like to say, good job! You're absolute in line with my thoughts about the future and the web.
I would like to add once again though, that the ball is on Adobe's side of the court. It's not only Apple users that could benefit from a better Flash and creative tools from Adobe. I hope they realize this... and it appears they have from the sparse announcements they have made recently. We ALL need an IDE to get content onto these new devices, being iPads, netbooks, slates, smart phones... or TVs. Imagine the publishing industry and the advent of DTP without Postscript, Illustrator and PageMaker. It never would have happened. That's where we are now with Flash, open standard web tech, and a huge array of assorted tools, protocols, and dev platforms.
BTW: I just wanted to state that I wrote here on AI shortly after the iPad was announced, that I thought Flash would be on the iPad when it was finally released to the public. There were a few more knowledgeable techies here that replied it was never going to happen, due to the fact that Flash is a run-time and Apple's dev policy specifically prohibits 3rd-party run-times. I'm still hopeful, at least for the near future, not the first version though.
Apple is not dumb, and if they see the iPad getting relegated to niche status and not "making the numbers" because of the lack of Flash ("the best web experience" is SJ's words... he's going to find that hard to live up to without Flash), they will work with Adobe to get it on their devices.
However... I like the approach they are taking, by "kicking the sleeping bear in the nuts" before doing so. Maybe Adobe will be so far along at that time, that Flash will only need a little tweaking to be acceptable.
We will ALL, regardless of platform or computer choice, be better off for Apple taking "The Stand"... and for having a "swift foot"! ...
The problem with Flash isn't the language it's the user experience.
Adobe prides Flash on the fact the user gets the same experience on all platforms but that is pure crap.
Flash is very very bad on the Mac. It's a 32 bit application running on a 64 bit OS (I'm running Snow Leopard) and as such my machine has to do more work to play the same crappy game as Windows users.
HTML5 and CSS doe not have this problem because it uses the browser to do the work. Considering the best browser for HTML5 support is any browser supporting WebKit then you can see why HTML5 works so much better on Macs than does Flash.
Can be done just as easily in HTML5 and CSS using the Canvas tag and even SVG (ironically an open standard created by Adobe pre-Macromedia buyout as a competitor to Flash). Now if it can be done without plugins which means it will be supported on iPhone because HTML5 and CSS is scalable then what makes more sense? A language that needs to be interpreted by a plugin or one that doesn't?
THIS is the reason why the Mac forums are filled with Flash haters. It's not that we hate the language it's because we hate the thing required to play it because Adobe has shafted us Mac users by not releasing a Cocoa application (Flash Player still uses Carbon which Apple is slowly killing off) and it's not 64 bit capable. 10.1 is supposed to be but how far away is that? The longer the delay the more people are going to get annoyed with Flash and the more they want to see it die. The more Flash that goes up the more our web browsing experience gets bogged down the more we hate developers for developing Flash based sites and then people like developers like you come along and say "stiff titties I don't care, like it or lump it" and we all say screw you never going to visit your sites.
Developers don't think about their actions. They never have. It's only the ones who think about the end users that do well... in fact they do really well. So maybe you should listen to your visitors instead of treating them as lepers.
Comments
You have decided that our debate is about me having the belief that Flash is always needed when its used.
No I haven't. I took issue with the fact you came out and said that you don't listen to site visitors as a developer.
I used Flash as an example of what developers do - forcing non-essential stuff on visitors simply because you can.
The fact of the matter is that by not listening to visitors you will lose visitors which defeats the purpose of the websites.
I visit the sites I like solely for content. If their website has a UI that I don't like I might overlook it because of the content. I don't care if it's a complex layout or a simple textual layout so long as the content is good. If not no matter how cool the site looks it's NOT going to get me coming back. For me it's aways Content over Design. If the site has both then cool but if the content lacks then bye bye. So NO, I don't like sites for their design.
" So this is just a personal rant about the AI users? May I ask why we should give a flyin' F*** what you think about us?
Good point, I don't actually care about you at all. As I already stated I like Apple and thats why I come to this site. I was just pointing out that this article was full of misinformation. Which it is. If you want to know why I think that find my first post.
To tell ya the truth, you can develop as many Flash sites as your heart desires
This is exactly my point. First, as I have already stated, I develop all sort of NON flash sites. But the idea that you would opposed to anything that uses Flash based solely on the idea that it uses Flash, or assume that all I develop are Flash sites because I am defending Flash, goes to show that you don't actually care about how effective it is or isn't at accomplishing a particular goal. You are just diametrically opposed regardless. You have decided in your mind that it's bad and as a result even if there were a good solution you wouldn't be able to see it.
I don't think this is the only website that has Apple users commenting about their "distaste" for Flash. Why the hate here for AI posters? Are you repeating this rant at 9to5, Macworld, MacNN, MacFixIt, et al?
While that is true to a degree. This site is in the worst that I visit. There seems to be a Flash is dying article here every week. I am not the only visitor who has commented about this, and I still believe the reason behind it has more to do with driving traffic than actual journalism.
is that you have to create an experience for the user that takes the tech side out of the equation and makes tech transparent to the user….. Flash does not do that.
It is by using such finite statements that it becomes clear you believe Flash is inherently flawed and thus it is set up for failure in your mind.
I've owned my own business for some 30 years. On a Mac since Summer of '84 and using version 1 of almost every design program every created, including all of Adobe's and Macromedia's (Altsys). Throw in a handful of years with WinNT, XP, and 2000... plus developing internet awareness and design since 1994 (the Mosaic and 14.4 modem years). At every step, I've been successful, as well have my clients, by being aware of what's coming next, and keeping up with advances in tech. Tech is admittedly my hobby... design and image consulting is my business.
Doh….sorry, out of cookies.
MS lost me as a fan completely some 5 years ago, after becoming seriously frustrated with my "tech-hobby" creating far too many lost days of frustration to cleaning registries, defragging, and "normal" Windows maintenance tasks.
Windows 7 is a great OS actually. But I believe this statement is again indicative of the real issue you have. Which is simply that once you have decided a technology is not good, than it can never be good and is always outdated. In reality. That isn't true.
Woah! Nice back-out there!
OK....so when ya get back from work, please (with a cherry on top?)...show us just 1 site then that needs Flash (other than a game or video). Just 1 (one). If ya can't do that much, I would say we here at AI are correct that Flash is not needed... and maybe I should reconsider my openess towards Flash for "some" things (at the present at least), and wish it to die as well.
I don't HATE Flash. I DO hate when any tech and code is not used efficiently, and/or for a specific feature that will add value to the experience. IF there's a way to make anything better, faster, and reach more people with less hassle... that's my path.
HTML5..? Who cares? If it's "Sheng Fui 13"* and it works across platforms and devices... use it! (*intentional misspelling)
I find it funny that you feel the necessity to ask me exclude anything if you really believe that Flash should never be used. There are actually people who love Flash games and that crappy JS example posted the other day doesn't really measure up. But I will humor you, and post no games, I am not sure if your distaste for flash games disqualifies sites like Blizzards wow-armory which is a fantastic use of integrating Flash and a data base, you can check that out here:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...chewer&cn=Kruf
Here is another example I came across just today actually.
http://visunetdemos.demos.ibm.com/bl...actBookSE.html
I have also seen some great examples on sites like the NYTImes
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...budget.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...s-graphic.html
Could this be done with something else? Probably. Would it be even half as easy. I doubt it. Would it export to a desktop app as well. No.
For those of you who like to know why developers use Flash I will give you a couple of reasons. To begin with the ubiquity is great. If you actually know how to code, and take care of things like garbage collection, Flash can run great on Windows and OSX. I know many of you will not believe that. But it's true. The reason many of you do not believe that is because Adobe has made Flash so easy to use that many people who create web content don't even actually know what garbage collection is. And by many, I mean millions.
I see the only currently real viable alternative to Flash as JS. I have used JS many times, particularly JQuery which I love, and its a great technology, but the truth of it is, it is so much harder to achieve the same level of cross browser compliance and still get the same interactivity, as a result the cost/benefit often leans towards using Flash. Also, keep in mind that while I write code, there are a lot of people who DONT write code and still want to create content for the web. They CANT use JS. JS simply isn't that easy to do. Frame by frame animation is actually all these people have available. Its slow, its chunky, it's CPU intensive. But they want there stuff on the web (and who are we to say they cant) and no-one (I'm looking at you Adobe, wink wink) has made an IDE that makes it as easy to publish to the web for someone who has no idea what they are doing as Flash is.
In the end though, I think this whole debate is about a few different things simultaneously.
First, is the fanboy mentality. This is what leads people to definitive decisions and biases. The idea that something HAS to be bad NO MATTER WHAT FOREVER. It's just so childish. There is hardly anything in the world that would qualify as such. Most things are at times good and at times bad. Depending on how they are used. Flash is no different. Even the banner ads you hate are good to some.
The second problem here is gullibility. The reason I post here is because AI has recently become the Tabloid of Apple news, I have been following this site for years and never posted until recently, because it seems like there has been a proliferation of completely off-base crap journalism And yes, in my opinion it is worse than MacRumors, MacCNN etc…
The third issue, and I believe the real issue that ALL of us should be discussing is this:
What should the web look like?
Many of you believe that the web doesn't need Flash, not because you have a problem with it being proprietary. Although you may tell yourself that. I mean really, if you don't actually develop for the web or pay for the content than what difference does it make to you if its open source or proprietary. All you SHOULD care about in that regard is if the content is valuable or not.
Here is what I believe is really happening, many people, simply want the web to be source of information. Just information.
Other people, want the web to be a source of entertainment. Just entertainment. These are the people who spend 50+ hours a week playing Mafia Wars.
Others want a little of both.
But where is the web ACTUALLY going?
Here is something to think about. The mobile web, is NOT the final frontier of our generation. Actually, its Television. Yup, that old thing in the corner that you never look at anymore unless its the SupersBowl, your PS3 or a blu-ray DVD. The thing you think HULU has replaced. I don't know exactly when, but I do know that soon enough, EVERY SINGLE TV YOU BUY will have FULL UNBRIDLED internet access. And users will expect the internet to behave in the exact same glorious HD, animated interstitials, 3d identity tags, CNN situation room way.. that they see on TV today. Accomplishing content creation like this isn't going to be easy, in fact its going to take tools beyond what Flash, Java, JQuery or any other tool technology has to offer today, tools that make PaperVision look like Mario Bros.
Do me a favor, go watch Sports Center, look at the intro to the show. Then ask yourself how you would do that in PHP or Javascript. Hell, even in Flash it would be impossible. Right now all we have is video. But people don't just want fancy animations, they want fancy animations they can interact with.
What's that you say? You don't need those animations? NEWS FLASH: YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING ALL PEOPLE
And this is the basic crux of this debate at its core level. You either believe that people want this or you don't. You either see the web as a place where animations, games, flashing bright things aren't needed. Or you see the web as a ever growing medium that is becoming more and more interactive with every day, more and more CPU intensive, more and more animated and alive.
I believe the later, which is why I appreciate what Flash has done and can do. When I hear statements about how animated banner ads are terrible or flash games are pointless, or who cares about navigation that can animate or looks fancy, I just want it to give me content, then I know I am dealing with someone who doesn't understand that lots of people do care. Not only do they care but they want more of it. Maybe YOU don't care, but ALOT of other people do. Google "Why can't I get flash on my iPhone" sometime instead of "Flash sucks" and you will see what I'm talking about.
Developers are not concerned about how to develop for the iPhone, because we don't have to be. In fact it takes no new technology what-so-ever. It is a step backward for web development and mobile itself is only a step towards what people really want.
What people want is access. Access to information all the time everywhere. Access to entertainment all the time everywhere. They want it how they want it. They don't want you to say they cant have it because the device doesn't support it, or because it has been decided that it isn't really necessary. These are the same people who think that commercial you cant stand is funny.
Anyway, /endrant.
I know, that I will never really convince anyone. But hopefully, some of you (flamers aside) will visit this forum and actually get some REAL information. Because I stand by the statement that this article, and more often lately AI itself, is trite, trash, sensationalist journalism.
Although, I have to admit, the removal of Flash is all good news to me.
I don't get it. Apple is so determined to pull the rug out from Adobe on flash for open standards when Apple itself is a lover of its own closed proprietary systems... the irony.
Although, I have to admit, the removal of Flash is all good news to me.
But Apple has never said they're rejecting Flash "for open standards." They've repeatedly said it's for performance issues.
Good point, I don't actually care about you at all. As I already stated I like Apple and thats why I come to this site. I was just pointing out that this article was full of misinformation. Which it is. If you want to know why I think that find my first post.
Actually, I went back and read the original article, and I don't see the misinformation that you obviously do. HOWEVER... see below.
While that is true to a degree. This site is in the worst that I visit. There seems to be a Flash is dying article here every week. I am not the only visitor who has commented about this, and I still believe the reason behind it has more to do with driving traffic than actual journalism.
I will agree with you here regarding sensationalist journalism and "click-whoring". I've accused Macworld of this over the last few months as well.
At one point I was going to do the same here, considering that a number of topics and replies to the forum, almost ALWAYS repeat what has already been said ad-nauseum in previous threads.
Hey AI: is there really no way to aggregate the topics and responses within the Forum? Or am I too old and dumb to figure it out from the CP panel?
It is by using such finite statements that it becomes clear you believe Flash is inherently flawed and thus it is set up for failure in your mind.
By no means. I sincerely have been hoping for news from the Adobe camp, and from Apple, that they have worked out their differences, and most of all that Adobe has created/updated Flash to reconcile the concerns that many have with using it: CPU and power consumption being the largest complaint. Also, as with Adobe's Acrobat, closing the security weaknesses.... especially for the mobile versions of their plug-ins. All computer, mobile, and web users would benefit... dontcha think?
Doh?.sorry, out of cookies.
...too bad, coulda used a sugar-shot about now
Windows 7 is a great OS actually. But I believe this statement is again indicative of the real issue you have. Which is simply that once you have decided a technology is not good, than it can never be good and is always outdated. In reality. That isn't true.
Oh no. You've mistaken me completely(!). I'm a staunch believer that what was yesterday, does not mean that tomorrow will not bring pleasant surprises. Apple itself was down in the dumps once upon a time, and I moved on with Windows, hedging my bet and making sure that I could continue in my business, regardless of platform. Again... I want Adobe to improve Flash, and all of their programs. Dying is not my wish here at all.
I find it funny that you feel the necessity to ask me exclude anything if you really believe that Flash should never be used. There are actually people who love Flash games and that crappy JS example posted the other day doesn't really measure up. But I will humor you, and post no games, I am not sure if your distaste for flash games disqualifies sites like Blizzards wow-armory which is a fantastic use of integrating Flash and a data base, you can check that out here:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...chewer&cn=Kruf
Yes! Certainly OK to include this, considering it has such a huge following! Very nice and useful! And might I add, a reason why the iPad should have Flash so that it can be used as an auxillary device.
Here is another example I came across just today actually.
http://visunetdemos.demos.ibm.com/bl...actBookSE.html
Wow! Impressive. Not sure, but couldn't something like this be coded as an app though? Specifically now that the iPad has some screen real estate to work with?
I have also seen some great examples on sites like the NYTImes
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...budget.html?hp
Also, very good... but couldn't this be done with using a static picture with image mapping and JS roll-over (click) overlays?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...s-graphic.html
Could this be done with something else? Probably. Would it be even half as easy. I doubt it. Would it export to a desktop app as well. No.
This graph is a far better example of Flash being necessary... and I'm not sure if it could be accomplished with anything else. Good find! I agree with all of your points above.
The reason many of you do not believe that is because Adobe has made Flash so easy to use that many people who create web content don't even actually know what garbage collection is. And by many, I mean millions.
Now THIS is the meat and potatoes of the problem!!!
...But they want there stuff on the web (and who are we to say they cant) and no-one (I'm looking at you Adobe, wink wink) has made an IDE that makes it as easy to publish to the web for someone who has no idea what they are doing as Flash is....
Yes...yes! Rather than winking at Adobe, they really must do this! I've shot queries across the bow whether Apple might have an IDE or program in the wings to facilitate their Open Standard stance. Some where, some one, and some company has to come up with this. Adobe has the lead, with MS not a step behind. It appears that the tech advances have caught both those behemoths still in their winter hibernation. It's Spring... wake up and get coding!
...First, is the fanboy mentality. ...
Oh please! Name calling and generalization is so childish! You should try to rise above that if you're an adult.
The third issue, and I believe the real issue that ALL of us should be discussing is this:
What should the web look like?....
Any one interested in your rather knowledgeable and agreeable view can read above without completely quoting it again.
I'd just like to say, good job! You're absolute in line with my thoughts about the future and the web.
I would like to add once again though, that the ball is on Adobe's side of the court. It's not only Apple users that could benefit from a better Flash and creative tools from Adobe. I hope they realize this... and it appears they have from the sparse announcements they have made recently. We ALL need an IDE to get content onto these new devices, being iPads, netbooks, slates, smart phones... or TVs. Imagine the publishing industry and the advent of DTP without Postscript, Illustrator and PageMaker. It never would have happened. That's where we are now with Flash, open standard web tech, and a huge array of assorted tools, protocols, and dev platforms.
BTW: I just wanted to state that I wrote here on AI shortly after the iPad was announced, that I thought Flash would be on the iPad when it was finally released to the public. There were a few more knowledgeable techies here that replied it was never going to happen, due to the fact that Flash is a run-time and Apple's dev policy specifically prohibits 3rd-party run-times. I'm still hopeful, at least for the near future, not the first version though.
Apple is not dumb, and if they see the iPad getting relegated to niche status and not "making the numbers" because of the lack of Flash ("the best web experience" is SJ's words... he's going to find that hard to live up to without Flash), they will work with Adobe to get it on their devices.
However... I like the approach they are taking, by "kicking the sleeping bear in the nuts" before doing so. Maybe Adobe will be so far along at that time, that Flash will only need a little tweaking to be acceptable.
We will ALL, regardless of platform or computer choice, be better off for Apple taking "The Stand"... and for having a "swift foot"!
Adobe prides Flash on the fact the user gets the same experience on all platforms but that is pure crap.
Flash is very very bad on the Mac. It's a 32 bit application running on a 64 bit OS (I'm running Snow Leopard) and as such my machine has to do more work to play the same crappy game as Windows users.
HTML5 and CSS doe not have this problem because it uses the browser to do the work. Considering the best browser for HTML5 support is any browser supporting WebKit then you can see why HTML5 works so much better on Macs than does Flash.
Stuff like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...s-graphic.html
Can be done just as easily in HTML5 and CSS using the Canvas tag and even SVG (ironically an open standard created by Adobe pre-Macromedia buyout as a competitor to Flash). Now if it can be done without plugins which means it will be supported on iPhone because HTML5 and CSS is scalable then what makes more sense? A language that needs to be interpreted by a plugin or one that doesn't?
THIS is the reason why the Mac forums are filled with Flash haters. It's not that we hate the language it's because we hate the thing required to play it because Adobe has shafted us Mac users by not releasing a Cocoa application (Flash Player still uses Carbon which Apple is slowly killing off) and it's not 64 bit capable. 10.1 is supposed to be but how far away is that? The longer the delay the more people are going to get annoyed with Flash and the more they want to see it die. The more Flash that goes up the more our web browsing experience gets bogged down the more we hate developers for developing Flash based sites and then people like developers like you come along and say "stiff titties I don't care, like it or lump it" and we all say screw you never going to visit your sites.
Developers don't think about their actions. They never have. It's only the ones who think about the end users that do well... in fact they do really well. So maybe you should listen to your visitors instead of treating them as lepers.