Apple's patent 'warning shots' prove disruptive for handset makers

13567

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 121
    jahonenjahonen Posts: 364member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NormM View Post


    Your numbers for cash are out of date -- they had over $24 billion in 2008. From the most recent quarterly report, Apple has $39.8 billion in cash and short and long term securities.



    It's not the exact figures (the forbes ones seemed to be more recent) that is of interest, it's the ballpark of the figures. The "cash" is also about what you count into it (albeit I'm no expert on it). But if you count the cash + marketable securities from here: http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/js...apl&period=qtr, you get 24,8B for 2009 (Nok being 13B). If you do the total current assets, Nok and Apple are 33B companies with Nok being marginally (0.5B) larger. Google is a 30B "asset" company and MSFT is a 52,5B company. Just replace aapl with nok, goog or msft in the URL to see comparable numbers for each.



    My 3 minute search was to prove sukaram's false claim: "companies that are so small that Apple's cash is bigger than their market cap" means that "gargantuan" Apple has "gargantuan" adversaries in the Patent battles if this keeps building up the way it has for the last couple of months (big boys suing one another directly or indirectly).



    HTC is smaller (around 3B), but that is not the only player in this.



    Regs, Jarkko
  • Reply 42 of 121
    nagrommenagromme Posts: 2,834member
    I can see the arguments against (at least some) software patents, as well as the arguments for why Apple shouldn’t let their unique user experience savvy and development work be copied and turned to cheap crap THIS time.



    However, I can imagine at least one potential benefit to consumers here: if Apple’s bullying works, we may get more VARIETY in our smartphone options. Ideally they’ll be less like a bunch of knock-off iPhone clones and more like things designed to be great (I know, it’s hard) in their own way. That’s already happened to an extent, but not as much as it could. (Let’s face it, the iPhone clones like Pre and Android would never have existed without the iPhone to copy. What if they came up with something more new and different instead? Sounds pretty cool to me. I think Palm could do it. And if even just ONE Android vendor pulls it off, that too could be great.)



    Some very cool UIs (and intuitive and productive) could emerge. And some bad ones. So be it!



    We could end up with MORE choice, not less. (Imagine what Windows might be if they hadn’t copied the Mac so much but instead taken the mouse in a different direction. Hard to imagine what might have been, but assuming MS had some great human interface designers, it could have been a compelling system.)
  • Reply 43 of 121
    finetunesfinetunes Posts: 2,065member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by delreyjones View Post


    Seems to me that Apple learned lessons from the Mac GUI back in the 1980s and therefore they are not doomed to see history repeat itself. They've once again re-invented the UI of a major electronic device, but this time Apple will be the ones to fully monetize this valuable innovation. So you got it right: Go Apple!



    You aren't referring to this case--are you?



    http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c....93-16867.html
  • Reply 44 of 121
    jahonenjahonen Posts: 364member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post


    And just where did you come up with 24 billion in cash? All financial reports, and at Apple's own shareholder meeting, the amount was more like 40 billion.



    The exact figure doesn't matter. I looked at Yahoo Financial and later Forbes to get a quick comparison. I trust analyst companies comparative figures more than my own analysis of the financial reports of individual companies. I guess Forbes is good enough?



    http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/js...apl&period=qtr. Cash+Securities 24,8B, total current assets 33B as of 12/2009. And as I said, absolute numbers are of no concern in my original response, the general size is. In practice the "war chest" of each of these big players is quite similar.



    Regs, Jarkko
  • Reply 45 of 121
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


    You still don't have to be lazy and quote the entire post of an obvious troll.



    It's not my problem that you have itchy keyboard fingers.
  • Reply 46 of 121
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,614member
    I wonder what's going on at HP Slateville right now.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MSjwUrxT0



    Maybe Apple went for HTC in order to cement their patent. Once the little guy is beaten and a judgement has been passed that judgement stands as a precedent and further obstacle for the big guys. I'm no lawyer so really, I have no idea. Just speculating blindly.
  • Reply 47 of 121
    finetunesfinetunes Posts: 2,065member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tawilson View Post


    No worries, again from the way I understand it...



    I'll use an example for sorting. There are numerous ways in which you can go about sorting things.



    If I had a patent on Bubble-sorting, then nobody would be allowed to sort data that way without licensing it from me.



    How ever they would be free to implement there own completely different method of sorting.





    Searching is another example, forever people would search strings of text from the beginning which would involve checking every character.



    However, some bright spark figured out that it would be more efficient and a hell of a lot faster to search backwards, as you can then skip "upto" the length of the search term each time. If they'd patented that reverse search method, then nobody else could search that way without licensing.



    The exact code and end result are irrelevant, it's what the code does that is the important bit.



    To make sure that I understand this, it would be like having a dictionary. The words are there and how you put the words together you can have something unique--like a best selling novel? However if you take someones novel and change some names then there would be problems. I would not want to be on the jury in this case. I think that the technology has progressed faster than the law. When you break the touch and feel aspect down to codes and how they are put together--there are very few judges, jurors and even lawyers that will comprehend the differences.
  • Reply 48 of 121
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post


    apple really doesn't want to get into a 'multitouch' legal nightmare. they will have their patent invalidated.



    Since you are so well versed in patent law, perhaps you could provide us with some examples of similar situations. Just to put things in perspective.
  • Reply 49 of 121
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jahonen View Post


    The exact figure doesn't matter. I looked at Yahoo Financial and later Forbes to get a quick comparison. I trust analyst companies comparative figures more than my own analysis of the financial reports of individual companies. I guess Forbes is good enough?



    http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/js...apl&period=qtr. Cash+Securities 24,8B, total current assets 33B as of 12/2009. And as I said, absolute numbers are of no concern in my original response, the general size is. In practice the "war chest" of each of these big players is quite similar.



    Regs, Jarkko



    This is why these type of lawsuits settle almost always. Sharp and Samsung both sued each other over LCD panels, including an ITC lawsuit. The ITC banned both companies LCDs from being imported. They both settled last month.



    People will still be able to buy iPhones, Nokia phones, and Android phones this year and the coming years.
  • Reply 50 of 121
    mh01mh01 Posts: 41member
    Does apple not have a patent for multitasking??? the Irony eh...
  • Reply 51 of 121
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tawilson View Post


    That would be a copyright issue, not patent.



    A patent would be on the method of doing something, and therefore enforceable should it be done the same way, but with different code to Apple's.





    actually you've got two different things going on and both are potentially enforceable even with different code.



    1 is straight up code stealing.

    2 is what is called 'look and feel'. even with different code, you can get dinged on this. in regards to the whole iphone etc realm, it would be the sum of all the gestures, the screens etc. and not just one single thing like 'move your finger up and down to scroll'.
  • Reply 52 of 121
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post


    You aren't referring to this case--are you?



    http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c....93-16867.html



    Uh, I don't know; looks like maybe I am. I'm not going into low-level details, but from the big picture I think two things are true and very important:



    1. Apple re-invents user interfaces and the whole world follows.

    2. Apple is more savvy about IP law than they used to be



    And the conclusion I draw from the above two premises are:



    APPL shareholders will make a boatload of $
  • Reply 53 of 121
    chanochano Posts: 51member
    @ jahonen

    If you check AAPL's financials, you will find that, by now 1Q10, it's cash and near-cash position should be over $42 billion. It was $39.8 billion (+/-) at 31/12/09.

    Near-cash is short-term and other easily liquidated investments. Highly saleable and easily converted into cash when necessary.

    A gargantuan liquid reserve sufficient to buy or beat up any thieving gargantuan copyists.

    OK?

    Chandra
  • Reply 54 of 121
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post


    apple really doesn't want to get into a 'multitouch' legal nightmare. they will have their patent invalidated. this is just scare tactics. if they proceed this could really back fire.



    Apple has hired the firm of Kirkland and Ellis to handle their IP suit against HTC. Robert Krupka is the Kirkland and Ellis partner who handles IP for Kirkland and Ellis. Krupka is one of the planet's top legal experts in IP with many big wins in hallmark cases to his credit. I don't think these are scare tactics.



    There are 2 cases filed. The first is a patent infringement case filed in the US District Court in the district of Delaware for 10 patent infringments including the so called multi-touch patents. Cases like this can take years for a decision though that's not hard and fast.



    The second infringement case has been filed with the US International Trade Commission for 10 patent infringements but these patents are more fundamental OS patents. The ITC usually rules within a matter of months.



    Given the costs of hiring Krupka and his team for a multi-year challenge, my feeling is that Apple is plenty serious about this and further that they (and Krupka) think they have a case. There is big money at stake.
  • Reply 55 of 121
    chanochano Posts: 51member
    Oh and btw, market cap is 204B+ right now and rising. Price is $223.74.

    Gargantuan!

    Like that word.

    Chandra
  • Reply 56 of 121
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by screamingfist View Post


    no, but the 2 guys who apple hired and did 'multitouch' developed the technology at university and it looks like the university may actually hold the patents.



    'it looks like'



    Yeah that's a strong and informed statement.



    If this were true, the university would have sued ages ago.



    And by 'at university' are you talking as students or employees. Did the university fund their research? As there any paperwork that said university claims overship of all work by students or even employees. And where is the patent filing by this university.



    Heck why not, since you know so much, actually state the names of the gentlemen and the university in question and stop being so vague.
  • Reply 57 of 121
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    Apple are doing their best to hold back Android handsets. It reminds me of the tale of King Canute trying to hold back the sea.



    Samsung are featuring some new handsets with a feature they refer to as multi-touch.
    Quote:

    multi-touch input and pinch-zooming gestures



    .



    Considering the proportion of Samsung components in Apple devices, anyone care to place bets that they don't take on Samsung over patent infringement?
  • Reply 58 of 121
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    This is why these type of lawsuits settle almost always. Snip They both settled last month.



    It's true that the sheer cost of a multi-year patent case is so expensive that companies frequently wind up settling on some sort of cross licencing agreement to end the case.



    However, Robert Krupka, the chief atorney from Kirkland and Ellis who is handling Apple's case for them is known in the industry as an attorney who brings cases to judgement rather than settling.
  • Reply 59 of 121
    daveswdavesw Posts: 406member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chano View Post


    Oh and btw, market cap is 204B+ right now and rising. Price is $223.74.

    Gargantuan!

    Like that word.

    Chandra



    holy crap $223.87!!! Go Apple!
  • Reply 60 of 121
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


    'it looks like'



    Yeah that's a strong and informed statement.



    If this were true, the university would have sued ages ago.



    And by 'at university' are you talking as students or employees. Did the university fund their research? As there any paperwork that said university claims overship of all work by students or even employees. And where is the patent filing by this university.



    Heck why not, since you know so much, actually state the names of the gentlemen and the university in question and stop being so vague.



    you really have issues. here is one article. read this. i am sure this will give you more to complain and act like an a$$ about.



    http://www.rcrwireless.com/article/2...S/902029978/-1
Sign In or Register to comment.