All I got from your above post was a good freakin laugh, then my Dad heard me laughing and thought I was looking at porn..he then came into my room and spanked me..with a wooden spoon! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Spanking as a ritual or common method of punishment can be problemmatic. I can count the number of times I got a swift sharp pat on the rear on one hand. But when they came (and they weren't big roundhouses by any means) -- boy did they get my attention! The larger problem is that punishment is somehow passé in parenting. Yes, true, positive feedback (rewards and less material means especially) are equally important for a child. But children do have to learn that when they do something that hurts themselves or tohers that they face the consequences of their actions. And some times they don't understand or care to listen/learn without a very fundamental form of punishment used sparingly and swiftly. The worst part of spanking is that some people don't just get it over with. Once they spank their kid, they stay angry, throw more disdain towards their child even after the "ultimate" consequence (and I would hope thatr spanking is the ultimate -- the last resort). Once you do that, it trivializes the act, and that's when kids get the idea that violence is trite as well.
I agree with a lot of what Jane said. I do think we have a self-esteem problem right now - it's too damned high. Too many losers think they're hot shite when they're really not.
I think spanking is not so great, but we've been told that everyone has to think they're wonderful, we have to raise their self-esteem, blah blah. I think we've gone too far to make people feel good. A little low self-esteem and even depression may be good for us every so often.
I agree with many of the things already posted. The old adage "spare the rod, spoil the child" holds water. I spanked my kids, but rarely. As for why is it ok, well, at an early age (I mean early) the kid understands that, and little else. (in terms of parental communication intended for training) If you wait until they can understand you verbally to begin training them in proper behavior, you lost. Cash it in, baby, it's over.
The kid loses too in the long run if he/she has not had appropriate behavioral training at an early age. How early? I say as soon as the infant (that's right, infant) is able to do something purposefully that is not appropriate. An example... my oldest, at I don't know, 8 or 9 months was getting around in a walker. (I could be off a little on that age, which is a big percentage, you understand.) He found a potted plant at eye level, and made a mess. Not appropriate. (I didn't let my mother-in law do that!) So, my wife placed aluminum foil around the base of the plant, on top of the dirt, as an "alarm". When he messed with it, he got his hand slapped, and a stern "no!" Eventually, he learned the meaning of no, and left it alone after a verbal warning. At first, he challenged us. One light slap generated a puzzled look, and he tried again. Another produced a pouty lip, and he tried again. A slightly harder slap produced crying, and he gave up, ...for awhile. His hand was fine, no welts, no busted veins, but we had made an impression.
By contrast, we had some friends who decided that their son, at age 14 months, was ready to learn the meaning of "no". Needless to say, they had a much harder time teaching that concept, because of the pattern already established.
I don't really remember the age that my kids were when spanking was no longer a punishment, but I'd guess around 9 or 10 years. I could probably count on my fingers how many spankings I gave each of them. It simply wasn't necessary for them. For some kids, it takes more. And yes, only use your hand, unless the kid is still defiant. That's the key; defiance cannot be tolerated.
i think the fear of spanking children comes from a lot of parent's desire to be their kid's friend, not their parent.
it's a lot harder to be a parent than a friend, and as much as it might make you feel better to be you child's friend, what they really need is a parent. they can find friends on their own.
and the spanking eventually did work with me, they just had to up the ante to the point where it wasn't worth challenging them anymore.
<strong>An example... my oldest, at I don't know, 8 or 9 months was getting around in a walker.</strong><hr></blockquote>I agree that age is a big factor. But 8-9 months seems too early to me. You can easily hurt a baby. The way I see it, at that age, it's OUR fault as parents if the baby gets into something they're not supposed to get into. You've got to put stuff away and baby-proof the house. Later they'll grow out of getting into stuff like that, and you can put it back.
I'm not flaming you, just giving my opinion on it.
Lots of babies are shaken and killed or very seriously injured because parents don't realize how easy it is to hurt a baby. I'd rather just draw the line at not physical punishment at all, than try to figure out how much is OK.
<strong>i think the fear of spanking children comes from a lot of parent's desire to be their kid's friend, not their parent.
it's a lot harder to be a parent than a friend, and as much as it might make you feel better to be you child's friend, what they really need is a parent. they can find friends on their own.
and the spanking eventually did work with me, they just had to up the ante to the point where it wasn't worth challenging them anymore.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with you soooo much here. The question is "is it better to loved...or feared?". Some people think I'm harsh when I say that I'm not really interested in being my childs friend...I also view being a Parent as being separated from being a friend(note- I have no children as of yet) if all goes well and there is mutual respect then a friendship comes easy but Parents do have responsibilites that supercede the need to be liked. It's a fine line but the best parents seem to keep to it pretty tight.
In order to have an opinion on that subject you must be a parent.
When you will have child perhaps your view about educations will change.
I have too young girls age 3 and 6. We are oblige to say the same thing twenty times a day , and the next day everything is forgetten. Whether ou believe it or not, that's the case (i have speak with many parents it's almost the same story with youngs kids).
Some times i spank my children (very few indeed) ; i ask them to obey quietly first, i repeat a second time, if nothing happens i threaten then to spank, and if it continue i practice (but generally the threat is sufficient). I am not a perfect father, but i want that my kids obey, because the most important time for education is the young age, when they become teenagers, it would be too late, and it will not be the time for spank anymore.
The fact that i have some authority does not prevent my child to love me. Sometimes my child complain that their grand-mother is too nice with her. It's important for childs that parents show the limits. However , you have to show either that you love them, and you appreciate the goods things they done.
<strong>In order to have an opinion on that subject you must be a parent.
<snip>.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Careful...not all children are the biological offspring of the parent. In my case I helped raise a young girl(3 months) and a 2 year old for a year. I believe it is VERY different to raise your own biological children but the responsibilites are the same. It's a tough job..but probably the most rewarding thing you do in your lifetime.
Careful...not all children are the biological offspring of the parent. In my case I helped raise a young girl(3 months) and a 2 year old for a year. I believe it is VERY different to raise your own biological children but the responsibilites are the same. It's a tough job..but probably the most rewarding thing you do in your lifetime.</strong><hr></blockquote>
in my opinion i consider that you are a parent. a parent who is just a biological parent is not a parent, a parent is the person who take care of a child : a tough job, really but one of the nicest.
<strong>I believe it is VERY different to raise your own biological children but the responsibilites are the same.</strong><hr></blockquote>Why is it very different?
<strong>Why is it very different?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think it will be different because you are looking at the culmination of two gene pools..one which is your own. I think too much emphasis is placed on biological Mothers/Fathers ...personally growing up I have had many great relations with Parental figures that weren't linked to me biologically.
not only do you advocate using violence but you lodge in their minds that if they are bad, they get pain. rather than spanking, a parent should have the capacity to understand _why_ their child did whatever it was that they shouldn't have done. it is a tough standpoint to take because children seem so sporadic and nonsenical. which is why I think being a parent involves ALOT of patience and effort in doing things that you normally might not do.
whenever I see a parent not permitting their child to walk somewhere or look at something, it just seems wrong....why punish the child for being curious? do you hit your cat or dog when they sniff around? why should you hit a child? sure there may be danger where the child is heading in which case intervention is necessary(unless you are a darwinist and believe that your child is to weak to see the oncoming truck and deserves to die <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
however punishment is not necessary. any form of punishment.
not only do you advocate using violence but you lodge in their minds that if they are bad, they get pain.</strong><hr></blockquote>
VIolence is not always the answer, but sometimes it is. My kids (when I have then in the very distant future) will be taught to avoid violence when possible, but that sometimes it's necessary.
[quote]<strong>rather than spanking, a parent should have the capacity to understand _why_ their child did whatever it was that they shouldn't have done. it is a tough standpoint to take because children seem so sporadic and nonsenical. which is why I think being a parent involves ALOT of patience and effort in doing things that you normally might not do.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And when they did it solely because they know that they're not supposed to, but that you're not going to spank them or really punish them at all because you're such an "understanding" parent? What then?
[quote]<strong>whenever I see a parent not permitting their child to walk somewhere or look at something, it just seems wrong....why punish the child for being curious? do you hit your cat or dog when they sniff around? why should you hit a child? sure there may be danger where the child is heading in which case intervention is necessary(unless you are a darwinist and believe that your child is to weak to see the oncoming truck and deserves to die <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
however punishment is not necessary. any form of punishment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with you here. Unless there's a danger involved that they couldn't possibly foresee or avoid they shouldn't be punished for being curious. However, they also need to learn that sometimes it's important to net let yourself get distracted. "My kid was curious and wanted to look at something" is not an excuse for being late or for not getting your job done.
And when they did it solely because they know that they're not supposed to, but that you're not going to spank them or really punish them at all because you're such an "understanding" parent? What then?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd try and find out WHY they want to do it, and see what I can build from that...there is still no reason to use phsyical punishment.
I wouldn't hit them. you tell someone not to do something, and they are bound to do it because you told them not to. you tell some WHY not to do something they are still bound to try because they believe it won't affect them. you tell someone not to do something and show them why they shouldn't and even then sometimes they will still do it.
<strong> do you hit your cat or dog when they sniff around
I have no ambition for my cat or my dog, but i have ambition for my kids.
Hit kids is not a good think, when i spank them (very rare indeed) the hit is just symbolic. I use to think like your before i was a parent, then i discover that only speak and understanding is not sufficent. I know that some child hit their parents and did not respect them, if my kids hurt me i spank him. In that way he will discover that violence leads to nothing good.
[quote]rather than spanking, a parent should have the capacity to understand _why_ their child did whatever it was that they shouldn't have done. it is a tough standpoint to take because children seem so sporadic and nonsenical. which is why I think being a parent involves ALOT of patience and effort in doing things that you normally might not do.<hr></blockquote>
and what do you plan on doing when your kid doesn't give a rat's fuzzy ass that you are trying to understand them? dude, i would walk all over you if you were my parent/guardian. i would play games with your head and always leave you wondering if maybe this time i understood what you meant.
i was hellish for almost every teacher i had because most would take this same approach. understanding is fine and good, but you better be able to show a child who is in charge, otherwise you'll have someone like me taking over.
once a teacher managed to get me to respect them, i was a model student. i think there were three all through k-12. college i just didn't go to classes for teachers i thought were idiots.
Kids need someone to lead them, to tell them what's what. They don't need a violent despot, but they sure as hell don't need some pseudo-psychologist following them around asking them their motivations every 5 minutes.
If you, as the parent, don't provide authority and stability, who will? A group of friends?
That may be good enough for you, but I might think a little Different (sic).
Comments
Thanks...I'm here all week!
<strong>Glad to see you all got my little remark
Thanks...I'm here all week!
All I got from your above post was a good freakin laugh, then my Dad heard me laughing and thought I was looking at porn..he then came into my room and spanked me..with a wooden spoon! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I think spanking is not so great, but we've been told that everyone has to think they're wonderful, we have to raise their self-esteem, blah blah. I think we've gone too far to make people feel good. A little low self-esteem and even depression may be good for us every so often.
The kid loses too in the long run if he/she has not had appropriate behavioral training at an early age. How early? I say as soon as the infant (that's right, infant) is able to do something purposefully that is not appropriate. An example... my oldest, at I don't know, 8 or 9 months was getting around in a walker. (I could be off a little on that age, which is a big percentage, you understand.) He found a potted plant at eye level, and made a mess. Not appropriate. (I didn't let my mother-in law do that!) So, my wife placed aluminum foil around the base of the plant, on top of the dirt, as an "alarm". When he messed with it, he got his hand slapped, and a stern "no!" Eventually, he learned the meaning of no, and left it alone after a verbal warning. At first, he challenged us. One light slap generated a puzzled look, and he tried again. Another produced a pouty lip, and he tried again. A slightly harder slap produced crying, and he gave up, ...for awhile. His hand was fine, no welts, no busted veins, but we had made an impression.
By contrast, we had some friends who decided that their son, at age 14 months, was ready to learn the meaning of "no". Needless to say, they had a much harder time teaching that concept, because of the pattern already established.
I don't really remember the age that my kids were when spanking was no longer a punishment, but I'd guess around 9 or 10 years. I could probably count on my fingers how many spankings I gave each of them. It simply wasn't necessary for them. For some kids, it takes more. And yes, only use your hand, unless the kid is still defiant. That's the key; defiance cannot be tolerated.
Gregg
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Gregg ]</p>
it's a lot harder to be a parent than a friend, and as much as it might make you feel better to be you child's friend, what they really need is a parent. they can find friends on their own.
and the spanking eventually did work with me, they just had to up the ante to the point where it wasn't worth challenging them anymore.
<strong>An example... my oldest, at I don't know, 8 or 9 months was getting around in a walker.</strong><hr></blockquote>I agree that age is a big factor. But 8-9 months seems too early to me. You can easily hurt a baby. The way I see it, at that age, it's OUR fault as parents if the baby gets into something they're not supposed to get into. You've got to put stuff away and baby-proof the house. Later they'll grow out of getting into stuff like that, and you can put it back.
I'm not flaming you, just giving my opinion on it.
Lots of babies are shaken and killed or very seriously injured because parents don't realize how easy it is to hurt a baby. I'd rather just draw the line at not physical punishment at all, than try to figure out how much is OK.
<strong>i think the fear of spanking children comes from a lot of parent's desire to be their kid's friend, not their parent.
it's a lot harder to be a parent than a friend, and as much as it might make you feel better to be you child's friend, what they really need is a parent. they can find friends on their own.
and the spanking eventually did work with me, they just had to up the ante to the point where it wasn't worth challenging them anymore.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with you soooo much here. The question is "is it better to loved...or feared?". Some people think I'm harsh when I say that I'm not really interested in being my childs friend...I also view being a Parent as being separated from being a friend(note- I have no children as of yet) if all goes well and there is mutual respect then a friendship comes easy but Parents do have responsibilites that supercede the need to be liked. It's a fine line but the best parents seem to keep to it pretty tight.
When you will have child perhaps your view about educations will change.
I have too young girls age 3 and 6. We are oblige to say the same thing twenty times a day , and the next day everything is forgetten. Whether ou believe it or not, that's the case (i have speak with many parents it's almost the same story with youngs kids).
Some times i spank my children (very few indeed) ; i ask them to obey quietly first, i repeat a second time, if nothing happens i threaten then to spank, and if it continue i practice (but generally the threat is sufficient). I am not a perfect father, but i want that my kids obey, because the most important time for education is the young age, when they become teenagers, it would be too late, and it will not be the time for spank anymore.
The fact that i have some authority does not prevent my child to love me. Sometimes my child complain that their grand-mother is too nice with her. It's important for childs that parents show the limits. However , you have to show either that you love them, and you appreciate the goods things they done.
<strong>In order to have an opinion on that subject you must be a parent.
<snip>.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Careful...not all children are the biological offspring of the parent. In my case I helped raise a young girl(3 months) and a 2 year old for a year. I believe it is VERY different to raise your own biological children but the responsibilites are the same. It's a tough job..but probably the most rewarding thing you do in your lifetime.
<strong>
Careful...not all children are the biological offspring of the parent. In my case I helped raise a young girl(3 months) and a 2 year old for a year. I believe it is VERY different to raise your own biological children but the responsibilites are the same. It's a tough job..but probably the most rewarding thing you do in your lifetime.</strong><hr></blockquote>
in my opinion i consider that you are a parent. a parent who is just a biological parent is not a parent, a parent is the person who take care of a child : a tough job, really but one of the nicest.
<strong>I believe it is VERY different to raise your own biological children but the responsibilites are the same.</strong><hr></blockquote>Why is it very different?
<strong>Why is it very different?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think it will be different because you are looking at the culmination of two gene pools..one which is your own. I think too much emphasis is placed on biological Mothers/Fathers ...personally growing up I have had many great relations with Parental figures that weren't linked to me biologically.
not only do you advocate using violence but you lodge in their minds that if they are bad, they get pain. rather than spanking, a parent should have the capacity to understand _why_ their child did whatever it was that they shouldn't have done. it is a tough standpoint to take because children seem so sporadic and nonsenical. which is why I think being a parent involves ALOT of patience and effort in doing things that you normally might not do.
whenever I see a parent not permitting their child to walk somewhere or look at something, it just seems wrong....why punish the child for being curious? do you hit your cat or dog when they sniff around? why should you hit a child? sure there may be danger where the child is heading in which case intervention is necessary(unless you are a darwinist and believe that your child is to weak to see the oncoming truck and deserves to die <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
however punishment is not necessary. any form of punishment.
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Wrong Robot ]</p>
<strong>I think its not okay to spank your kids.
not only do you advocate using violence but you lodge in their minds that if they are bad, they get pain.</strong><hr></blockquote>
VIolence is not always the answer, but sometimes it is. My kids (when I have then in the very distant future) will be taught to avoid violence when possible, but that sometimes it's necessary.
[quote]<strong>rather than spanking, a parent should have the capacity to understand _why_ their child did whatever it was that they shouldn't have done. it is a tough standpoint to take because children seem so sporadic and nonsenical. which is why I think being a parent involves ALOT of patience and effort in doing things that you normally might not do.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And when they did it solely because they know that they're not supposed to, but that you're not going to spank them or really punish them at all because you're such an "understanding" parent? What then?
[quote]<strong>whenever I see a parent not permitting their child to walk somewhere or look at something, it just seems wrong....why punish the child for being curious? do you hit your cat or dog when they sniff around? why should you hit a child? sure there may be danger where the child is heading in which case intervention is necessary(unless you are a darwinist and believe that your child is to weak to see the oncoming truck and deserves to die <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
however punishment is not necessary. any form of punishment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with you here. Unless there's a danger involved that they couldn't possibly foresee or avoid they shouldn't be punished for being curious. However, they also need to learn that sometimes it's important to net let yourself get distracted. "My kid was curious and wanted to look at something" is not an excuse for being late or for not getting your job done.
<strong>
And when they did it solely because they know that they're not supposed to, but that you're not going to spank them or really punish them at all because you're such an "understanding" parent? What then?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'd try and find out WHY they want to do it, and see what I can build from that...there is still no reason to use phsyical punishment.
I wouldn't hit them. you tell someone not to do something, and they are bound to do it because you told them not to. you tell some WHY not to do something they are still bound to try because they believe it won't affect them. you tell someone not to do something and show them why they shouldn't and even then sometimes they will still do it.
<strong> do you hit your cat or dog when they sniff around
I have no ambition for my cat or my dog, but i have ambition for my kids.
Hit kids is not a good think, when i spank them (very rare indeed) the hit is just symbolic. I use to think like your before i was a parent, then i discover that only speak and understanding is not sufficent. I know that some child hit their parents and did not respect them, if my kids hurt me i spank him. In that way he will discover that violence leads to nothing good.
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Wrong Robot ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>In that way he will discover that violence leads to nothing good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only for you.
and what do you plan on doing when your kid doesn't give a rat's fuzzy ass that you are trying to understand them? dude, i would walk all over you if you were my parent/guardian. i would play games with your head and always leave you wondering if maybe this time i understood what you meant.
i was hellish for almost every teacher i had because most would take this same approach. understanding is fine and good, but you better be able to show a child who is in charge, otherwise you'll have someone like me taking over.
once a teacher managed to get me to respect them, i was a model student. i think there were three all through k-12. college i just didn't go to classes for teachers i thought were idiots.
If you, as the parent, don't provide authority and stability, who will? A group of friends?
That may be good enough for you, but I might think a little Different (sic).