You are right, it is their choice, and if they choose to produce a second rate product for the Mac, why complain?... why should Adobe be forced to make a good Mac version if they do not want to.
I'm not saying they should create better products (at least not in the sense of a direct imperative from me to them) of course it's totally up to them. I was just implying they are being stupid and lazy not to do so.
The reason to complain is pretty obvious though. Are you actually suggesting that no one should complain about anything ever? I don't understand why you would say "why complain?" It's semantic nonsense unless you just meant it in the shrug-of-the-shoulders, colloquial kind of way.
I'm not saying they should create better products (at least not in the sense of a direct imperative from me to them) of course it's totally up to them. I was just implying they are being stupid and lazy not to do so.
But we do not know if they are being stupid and lazy. You may think they are, and I may think they are, but for all we know, they may have looked at what it would take to optimize the code for Mac, looked at the size of the market, and decided that it was not worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
The reason to complain is pretty obvious though. Are you actually suggesting that no one should complain about anything ever? I don't understand why you would say "why complain?" It's semantic nonsense unless you just meant it in the shrug-of-the-shoulders, colloquial kind of way.
Some of it was colloquial and no I am not saying that one should not complain. However, if you buy a product knowing that it wont do X (or do X well), then you do not have much of a grounds for complaint. My hunch is that most of the posters on the board bought a Mac knowing about Flash on a Mac, and they bought the Mac anyway.
Adobe just need to do the smartest thing and play along. They will come off better for it in the end.
They wont. Adobe wants OS layer control through flash eg: AIR future direction. having spent time with prior employees of Adobe related to flash dev I can tell you they think little of the mac and especially its users. Frankly were a bunch of fanatics to them, whist they would reason that they are trying to standardize the web. The WC3 standards are essentially free. Adobe is a closed corporation, and adobe is require to make a profit. Who do you trust. Adobe should have NEVER been allowed to buy Macromedia. Frankly I wish that Apple develops a nuclear option and kills Adobe, by getting Aperture to be a photoshop killer developing or licensing inkscape and buying CODA.
I've never seen a code generator that created halfway decent code. In order to create churn out multi-platform crap, you've got to work toward the lowest common denominator.
This IS NOT what Apple is about. If you want to write code to work efficiently in a constrained environment like a Smart Phone or iPod Touch, you've got to learn the tool set and conform to best practices.
Maybe it's harder, maybe it's a barrier to entry, but that's just the way it is.
I could not agree more. And, if you took the easy route, alot of the time you can meet 90% of a basic experience, but the additional 10%, or god forbid you want to do something that is not supported by the generator, will take longer than it would have taken you to code it for real. And hope your don't have a bug, most of the time you won't know where to look.
This guy is a moe-ron!! I work for a large company and our mobile team got an iPad for development and testing. My manager who is not a big fan of Apple weeks ago said HTML5 is "years away" from adoption and we should keep using Flash, his boss didn't agree. Now my manager is changing hs tune about H5, but unwillingly. Like it or hate it, but Flash's uses are going down. Flash will be around for many years, but not as the primary tool. Did everyone watch the iPhone OS 4 keynote? What they showed with iAd was impressive from an H5 point. At my job we will need to support Flash for a long time, but we are in talks t start using HTML5 in the future.
As the article says Adobe tried to kill Flash back in 2000 or so, so I don't want to hear them cry the poor victim role. Back then I went to a seminar Adobe hosted and they demoed their 'Flash-killer' software, but no one was impressed and obviously most kept using Flash. The only way they could compete with Macromdia and Flash then was to buy 'em out. So shut-up Adobe, you got bested by Apple. Now they can either adapt or move on to something else. Go Steve - continue to push the envelope.
For the Adobe Evangelist to insist that Apple has to allow Adobe's CS5 to create apps that use Flash for the iPhone (et al) is the same as if Microsoft demanded that Apple stop using OS X and switch to Windows 7.
I agree with the several bloggers who stated that Adobe seems very nervous.
I don't think we should automatically assume Apple has the upper-hand here. If Adobe's CS Suite wasn't available for the Mac platform, I bet a lot less people would be using the platform.
As I mentioned elsewhere, the last figures I've seen put the Photoshop installed base at something like 50% Mac. Of course, that's people who already own Adobe software, but how many platform agnostic people are buying brand new copies of CS?
Sure, they could gut it out by simply forcing anyone who wants to use their stuff to get a PC, but that would a) be a PR disaster the likes of which we have rarely seen in the software industry and b) represent a a near and mid term gutting of sales.
It's just not going to happen, no matter how pissed some people at Adobe might be at Apple's mobile strategies. All withdrawing CS from the Mac does is fuck up your desktop sales to go along with your mobile problems, because such a move certainly isn't going to force Apple to back down. Yes, it arguably hurts Apple more than Adobe in the long run, but that would be what is known as "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
Have you heard of Photoshop? It's quite popular, quite dominant, has about 100% share of the graphic design market.
As for Flash, I'm with Adobe on this. Apple should just give people the option of installing a flash plug-in. Freedom is a beautiful thing, unless you're Steve Jobs, in which case, it's the enemy.
Flash is a CPU HOG! Good ridden. Our batteries will thank us the quicker we move on to better standards.
It's not a CPU hog on Windows 7. Perhaps if Apple just worked with Adobe instead of attacking them then we could all have a well written flash plug-in for mobile Safari, or better still, for Fennec. (yes, I can dream)
It's not a CPU hog on Windows 7. Perhaps if Apple just worked with Adobe instead of attacking them then we could all have a well written flash plug-in for mobile Safari, or better still, for Fennec. (yes, I can dream)
No other developer seems to need special help to get their software to run well on OS X. Adobe is a large, rich developer. They have no excuse for their poor showing on platforms other than Windows (Specifically 7).
Adobe has had years to get its act together and produce top-notch software the way Apple, AVID, Microsoft and many other Adobe competitors have. Adobe dug their own grave by assuming they were invincible and consequently producing, for the most part, junk. And doing so in the laziest way they could muster.
Thank you AppleInsider for revealing the real battleground - which is HTML5's Canvas. Can we please talk more about that?
A very real concern is how long it will take for 2D animation (eg Canvas) in HTML5 to become a reality. If Microsoft blocks it by not putting it in their IE browser then that is the real blow - adobe is only a secondary problem with its efforts to block it in the HTML5 spec.
A solution i see is for Apple to enter some sort of agreement with Microsoft -> Microsoft you include Canvas in IE, back it in the HTML5 spec and you can make tools for it and we will give you default search for Bing or something like that.
Also i would like to know more on the state of HTML5's open video spec - mostly as it relates to MS.
It's not a CPU hog on Windows 7. Perhaps if Apple just worked with Adobe instead of attacking them then we could all have a well written flash plug-in for mobile Safari, or better still, for Fennec. (yes, I can dream)
Apple doesn't NEED to work with them. everything they need is in the API. Adobe's programmers just need to read the documentations in xCode.
Or you are saying that Apple should send a team of teachers over, and teach them how to program?
Actually Adobe can just send some of their programmers over to Standford to take the iPhone programming class, it's pretty comprehensive.
I literally laughed 'till I cried after reading this one! Bravo, AdamIiGS!
I am truly shocked that this "evangelist" made such a public display of himself while using his his company's blog to stage a tantrum! Unprofessional and embarrassing, this rant will no doubt come back to haunt him. He even turned comments off as if to say, "I'm taking my ball and going home"!
As for Adobe... I work in research and have used Mac and Linux frequently throughout the past decade and a half. Adobe, since buying flash, would always drag their feet in releasing updates for these "lesser" platforms. That is, until the iPhone came out.
Adobe could very well have set the standard with flash, but, as Jobs has said and many have echoed, they are "lazy" and innovation or setting standards were of no interest to them until they stood to lose something.
I've never seen a code generator that created halfway decent code. In order to create churn out multi-platform crap, you've got to work toward the lowest common denominator.
You know, all compilers are code generators. Apple's Objective-C compiler is ultimately just a code generator for C (it was even implemented that way for a long time), and a C compiler is just a code generator for assembly (most compilers are still implemented this way), and an assembler is just a code generator for binary executables. Apple should require all apps be written directly in ARM's Thumb instruction set for the best native iPhone experience!
Kidding aside, there is a difference between using different programming languages to write native apps, and using shoddy multi-platform compatibility layers to avoid writing native apps. I hate the latter as much as Apple, but prohibiting the former to try to stop the latter is unnecessary and harmful to Apple's platform--and to computer science progress towards more stable, efficient, maintainable programs in general.
Have you heard of Photoshop? It's quite popular, quite dominant, has about 100% share of the graphic design market.
I certainly wouldn't say 100% share. Don't forget people are still using CorelDraw, Paint Shop Pro, and Pixelmator is rapidly becoming one to watch in the design market.
Photoshop isn't the be all and end all paint app at all and when you look at what Pixelmator is doing using Apple's APIs then you realise that if it can match Photoshop in terms of features then Photoshop will become dead in the water. Who's going to buy Photoshop then when they can get an app that screams on the Mac, can read and write Photoshop files, and has the same feature set and yet costs $100(NZ) as opposed to $1,449.95(NZ)?
I love all things Apple. I use OSX all day and really love it. I promote Macs to all of my friends in an effort to get them off of the nightmare that is Windows. I own an iPhone. I will be buying an iPad. And I want Apple to go fsck them selves right now.
It is like Apple is the political party and the fanboys are all reading from the same talking points memo: Kill Flash! Kill Adobe! Before Apple took up the cause, did any of these guys spend more than 10 seconds arguing that flash should be dealt a death blow? Answer: no. They may have been annoyed at the cpu usage, but I assure you the vitriolic nature of their anti-flash crusade has all the earmarks of a political witch-hunt managed by the overlords and carried out by the unthinking sheep.
I have no love for flash and will be happy when it is gone... but I am also trying to develop an iPhone app using Appcelerator Titanium (something that will be banned by the a$$hats at Apple under this new clause). I am not a programmer by trade (and tried and failed to learn objective-C). Javascript makes iPhone development something that is accessible to the casual programmer and that is something that is democratizing. And before you all read from your next talking point and tell me that there is a minimum standard of quality that can only be attained by using pure objective-C, I refer you to iFart or any one of 10,000 other completely unremarkable apps that grace the app store.
I have a unique idea for an iPhone app and want the opportunity to try my hand at developing it. But Apple somehow has it in for Flash (and maybe Android with whom I could cross-compile my app) and so has taken me out as collateral damage.
And now all of you can pile on in defense of "every thing Apple does is perfect" but honestly... if Microsoft had done this in the 1990's (and they did plenty of this kind of crap back then) you would all be howling "unfair" - and did no doubt.
Pretty well everything you use (numbers, text, constants etc) has to be wrapped in a Cocoa object and that allows all sorts of magic to occur behind the scenes; now including multi-tasking, state saving etc. Cross compiled code breaks the object tracking and Apple are having none of it.
Cross compiled code has nothing to do with this. All Objective-C method invocations are compiled to C function calls to objc_msgSend(). Instantiating Objective-C classes is just translated to a call to class_createInstance(). Indeed, Objective-C itself was originally just a preprocessor, a "code generator" if you will, for C.
Any code, compiled from whatever source, that uses these interfaces is indistinguishable to the Objective-C runtime. This new rule targets so much more than just Flash and bloated middleware. They are forbidding developers from taking advantage of any computer science progress made in the last 30 years in developing their native, iPhone/iPad only apps. Reiterating what I posted in another thread, Apple is perfectly happy to kill lots of friendlies in order to take out a few more, irrelevant bad guys.
Comments
You are right, it is their choice, and if they choose to produce a second rate product for the Mac, why complain?... why should Adobe be forced to make a good Mac version if they do not want to.
I'm not saying they should create better products (at least not in the sense of a direct imperative from me to them) of course it's totally up to them. I was just implying they are being stupid and lazy not to do so.
The reason to complain is pretty obvious though. Are you actually suggesting that no one should complain about anything ever? I don't understand why you would say "why complain?" It's semantic nonsense unless you just meant it in the shrug-of-the-shoulders, colloquial kind of way.
suck it
Steve
Sent from my iPad
Very Funny!
I'm not saying they should create better products (at least not in the sense of a direct imperative from me to them) of course it's totally up to them. I was just implying they are being stupid and lazy not to do so.
But we do not know if they are being stupid and lazy. You may think they are, and I may think they are, but for all we know, they may have looked at what it would take to optimize the code for Mac, looked at the size of the market, and decided that it was not worth it.
The reason to complain is pretty obvious though. Are you actually suggesting that no one should complain about anything ever? I don't understand why you would say "why complain?" It's semantic nonsense unless you just meant it in the shrug-of-the-shoulders, colloquial kind of way.
Some of it was colloquial and no I am not saying that one should not complain. However, if you buy a product knowing that it wont do X (or do X well), then you do not have much of a grounds for complaint. My hunch is that most of the posters on the board bought a Mac knowing about Flash on a Mac, and they bought the Mac anyway.
Adobe just need to do the smartest thing and play along. They will come off better for it in the end.
They wont. Adobe wants OS layer control through flash eg: AIR future direction. having spent time with prior employees of Adobe related to flash dev I can tell you they think little of the mac and especially its users. Frankly were a bunch of fanatics to them, whist they would reason that they are trying to standardize the web. The WC3 standards are essentially free. Adobe is a closed corporation, and adobe is require to make a profit. Who do you trust. Adobe should have NEVER been allowed to buy Macromedia. Frankly I wish that Apple develops a nuclear option and kills Adobe, by getting Aperture to be a photoshop killer developing or licensing inkscape and buying CODA.
I've never seen a code generator that created halfway decent code. In order to create churn out multi-platform crap, you've got to work toward the lowest common denominator.
This IS NOT what Apple is about. If you want to write code to work efficiently in a constrained environment like a Smart Phone or iPod Touch, you've got to learn the tool set and conform to best practices.
Maybe it's harder, maybe it's a barrier to entry, but that's just the way it is.
I could not agree more. And, if you took the easy route, alot of the time you can meet 90% of a basic experience, but the additional 10%, or god forbid you want to do something that is not supported by the generator, will take longer than it would have taken you to code it for real. And hope your don't have a bug, most of the time you won't know where to look.
This guy is a moe-ron!! I work for a large company and our mobile team got an iPad for development and testing. My manager who is not a big fan of Apple weeks ago said HTML5 is "years away" from adoption and we should keep using Flash, his boss didn't agree. Now my manager is changing hs tune about H5, but unwillingly. Like it or hate it, but Flash's uses are going down. Flash will be around for many years, but not as the primary tool. Did everyone watch the iPhone OS 4 keynote? What they showed with iAd was impressive from an H5 point. At my job we will need to support Flash for a long time, but we are in talks t start using HTML5 in the future.
As the article says Adobe tried to kill Flash back in 2000 or so, so I don't want to hear them cry the poor victim role. Back then I went to a seminar Adobe hosted and they demoed their 'Flash-killer' software, but no one was impressed and obviously most kept using Flash. The only way they could compete with Macromdia and Flash then was to buy 'em out. So shut-up Adobe, you got bested by Apple. Now they can either adapt or move on to something else. Go Steve - continue to push the envelope.
I agree with the several bloggers who stated that Adobe seems very nervous.
I don't think we should automatically assume Apple has the upper-hand here. If Adobe's CS Suite wasn't available for the Mac platform, I bet a lot less people would be using the platform.
As I mentioned elsewhere, the last figures I've seen put the Photoshop installed base at something like 50% Mac. Of course, that's people who already own Adobe software, but how many platform agnostic people are buying brand new copies of CS?
Sure, they could gut it out by simply forcing anyone who wants to use their stuff to get a PC, but that would a) be a PR disaster the likes of which we have rarely seen in the software industry and b) represent a a near and mid term gutting of sales.
It's just not going to happen, no matter how pissed some people at Adobe might be at Apple's mobile strategies. All withdrawing CS from the Mac does is fuck up your desktop sales to go along with your mobile problems, because such a move certainly isn't going to force Apple to back down. Yes, it arguably hurts Apple more than Adobe in the long run, but that would be what is known as "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
Adobe is now in BIG trouble. They are going down.
Have you heard of Photoshop? It's quite popular, quite dominant, has about 100% share of the graphic design market.
As for Flash, I'm with Adobe on this. Apple should just give people the option of installing a flash plug-in. Freedom is a beautiful thing, unless you're Steve Jobs, in which case, it's the enemy.
Flash is a CPU HOG! Good ridden. Our batteries will thank us the quicker we move on to better standards.
It's not a CPU hog on Windows 7. Perhaps if Apple just worked with Adobe instead of attacking them then we could all have a well written flash plug-in for mobile Safari, or better still, for Fennec. (yes, I can dream)
It's not a CPU hog on Windows 7. Perhaps if Apple just worked with Adobe instead of attacking them then we could all have a well written flash plug-in for mobile Safari, or better still, for Fennec. (yes, I can dream)
No other developer seems to need special help to get their software to run well on OS X. Adobe is a large, rich developer. They have no excuse for their poor showing on platforms other than Windows (Specifically 7).
Adobe has had years to get its act together and produce top-notch software the way Apple, AVID, Microsoft and many other Adobe competitors have. Adobe dug their own grave by assuming they were invincible and consequently producing, for the most part, junk. And doing so in the laziest way they could muster.
..Adobe's position that "more than 96 percent of U.S. Web surfers have Flash installed on their computers, according to researcher StatOwl,"
And in another year or two, 96% of U.S. Web surfers will use HTML5.
Sounds like evolution, not a revolution. What's the problem now?
A very real concern is how long it will take for 2D animation (eg Canvas) in HTML5 to become a reality. If Microsoft blocks it by not putting it in their IE browser then that is the real blow - adobe is only a secondary problem with its efforts to block it in the HTML5 spec.
A solution i see is for Apple to enter some sort of agreement with Microsoft -> Microsoft you include Canvas in IE, back it in the HTML5 spec and you can make tools for it and we will give you default search for Bing or something like that.
Also i would like to know more on the state of HTML5's open video spec - mostly as it relates to MS.
It's not a CPU hog on Windows 7. Perhaps if Apple just worked with Adobe instead of attacking them then we could all have a well written flash plug-in for mobile Safari, or better still, for Fennec. (yes, I can dream)
Apple doesn't NEED to work with them. everything they need is in the API. Adobe's programmers just need to read the documentations in xCode.
Or you are saying that Apple should send a team of teachers over, and teach them how to program?
Actually Adobe can just send some of their programmers over to Standford to take the iPhone programming class, it's pretty comprehensive.
suck it
Steve
Sent from my iPad
I literally laughed 'till I cried after reading this one! Bravo, AdamIiGS!
I am truly shocked that this "evangelist" made such a public display of himself while using his his company's blog to stage a tantrum! Unprofessional and embarrassing, this rant will no doubt come back to haunt him. He even turned comments off as if to say, "I'm taking my ball and going home"!
As for Adobe... I work in research and have used Mac and Linux frequently throughout the past decade and a half. Adobe, since buying flash, would always drag their feet in releasing updates for these "lesser" platforms. That is, until the iPhone came out.
Adobe could very well have set the standard with flash, but, as Jobs has said and many have echoed, they are "lazy" and innovation or setting standards were of no interest to them until they stood to lose something.
Bring on H5.
I've never seen a code generator that created halfway decent code. In order to create churn out multi-platform crap, you've got to work toward the lowest common denominator.
You know, all compilers are code generators. Apple's Objective-C compiler is ultimately just a code generator for C (it was even implemented that way for a long time), and a C compiler is just a code generator for assembly (most compilers are still implemented this way), and an assembler is just a code generator for binary executables. Apple should require all apps be written directly in ARM's Thumb instruction set for the best native iPhone experience!
Kidding aside, there is a difference between using different programming languages to write native apps, and using shoddy multi-platform compatibility layers to avoid writing native apps. I hate the latter as much as Apple, but prohibiting the former to try to stop the latter is unnecessary and harmful to Apple's platform--and to computer science progress towards more stable, efficient, maintainable programs in general.
Have you heard of Photoshop? It's quite popular, quite dominant, has about 100% share of the graphic design market.
I certainly wouldn't say 100% share. Don't forget people are still using CorelDraw, Paint Shop Pro, and Pixelmator is rapidly becoming one to watch in the design market.
Photoshop isn't the be all and end all paint app at all and when you look at what Pixelmator is doing using Apple's APIs then you realise that if it can match Photoshop in terms of features then Photoshop will become dead in the water. Who's going to buy Photoshop then when they can get an app that screams on the Mac, can read and write Photoshop files, and has the same feature set and yet costs $100(NZ) as opposed to $1,449.95(NZ)?
It is like Apple is the political party and the fanboys are all reading from the same talking points memo: Kill Flash! Kill Adobe! Before Apple took up the cause, did any of these guys spend more than 10 seconds arguing that flash should be dealt a death blow? Answer: no. They may have been annoyed at the cpu usage, but I assure you the vitriolic nature of their anti-flash crusade has all the earmarks of a political witch-hunt managed by the overlords and carried out by the unthinking sheep.
I have no love for flash and will be happy when it is gone... but I am also trying to develop an iPhone app using Appcelerator Titanium (something that will be banned by the a$$hats at Apple under this new clause). I am not a programmer by trade (and tried and failed to learn objective-C). Javascript makes iPhone development something that is accessible to the casual programmer and that is something that is democratizing. And before you all read from your next talking point and tell me that there is a minimum standard of quality that can only be attained by using pure objective-C, I refer you to iFart or any one of 10,000 other completely unremarkable apps that grace the app store.
I have a unique idea for an iPhone app and want the opportunity to try my hand at developing it. But Apple somehow has it in for Flash (and maybe Android with whom I could cross-compile my app) and so has taken me out as collateral damage.
And now all of you can pile on in defense of "every thing Apple does is perfect" but honestly... if Microsoft had done this in the 1990's (and they did plenty of this kind of crap back then) you would all be howling "unfair" - and did no doubt.
Apple fan. And Apple hater right now.
Pretty well everything you use (numbers, text, constants etc) has to be wrapped in a Cocoa object and that allows all sorts of magic to occur behind the scenes; now including multi-tasking, state saving etc. Cross compiled code breaks the object tracking and Apple are having none of it.
Cross compiled code has nothing to do with this. All Objective-C method invocations are compiled to C function calls to objc_msgSend(). Instantiating Objective-C classes is just translated to a call to class_createInstance(). Indeed, Objective-C itself was originally just a preprocessor, a "code generator" if you will, for C.
Any code, compiled from whatever source, that uses these interfaces is indistinguishable to the Objective-C runtime. This new rule targets so much more than just Flash and bloated middleware. They are forbidding developers from taking advantage of any computer science progress made in the last 30 years in developing their native, iPhone/iPad only apps. Reiterating what I posted in another thread, Apple is perfectly happy to kill lots of friendlies in order to take out a few more, irrelevant bad guys.