A lot of that was difficult to watch. Hearing those bodies hit was almost too much for me.
It's a horrible thing.
It's all very abstract until the people jump from windows and crash violently and loudly below. It's difficult to not feel extreme anger when you hear people crashing down loudly all around knowing that it's the work of cowards and madmen.
I couldn't help but think "there is no god" as the firemen tried to find a way out where they weren't in danger of being crushed by the people who were throwing themselves out of windows over a thousand feet up to escape overwhelming flame and destruction.
<strong>Explain what you mean, I'm not following.</strong><hr></blockquote>
saying that God "does not exist" is very prideful. how arrogant to say that u "know" for fact. if u say that u dont believe there is a God, thats one thing. but dont say that there is no God, cause that makes u sound just as ignorant as saying that evolution is impossible.
It's only prideful if you believe in a god that actually gives a shit about what goes on.
There might be some god that created us, but if there is he's gone. Or maybe he was just warming the hearts of those that fell a thousand feet to their death because other people thought they should die for him.
"It is in my plan that you should splatter on a sidewalk 300 yards below you, be comforted."
The EXACT same mentality that these fruitcake cowards used to fly planes into buildings full of innocents. "It is in my plan that you should murder thousands whose loss will be tragic, be comforted."
---
Hedging your bets is not what your God wants, alliance.
<strong>It's only prideful if you believe in a god that actually gives a shit about what goes on.
There might be some god that created us, but if there is he's gone. Or maybe he was just warming the hearts of those that fell a thousand feet to their death because other people thought they should die for him.
"It is in my plan that you should splatter on a sidewalk 300 yards below you, be comforted."
The EXACT same mentality that these fruitcake cowards used to fly planes into buildings full of innocents. "It is in my plan that you should murder thousands whose loss will be tragic, be comforted."
---
Hedging your bets is not what your God wants, alliance.
Rev. 3:15-16</strong><hr></blockquote>
hmm...a true pessimist...
sounds like me
these are not actions made by God, grover. these are actions made by men. blame the men, not God. the men were obviously influenced by evil, even though they hid behind the shrouds of "faith," which of course is bullsh*t. claiming to do something to serve God is one thing. but doing this by killing thousands of innocents is quite another. so u think that cause a few thousand people were murdered that there is no God? unfortunately, i can think of worse opportunities to turn away from potential faith--the World Wars are much worse...
however, yet again i must stress that these are man-made pains. dont blame God on something that we did to ourselves. u claim indifference, but i see it more as free-will. what do u expect? for Him to suddenly come down and stop the planes from destroying the building??? no. its not that easy. he gave us our own lives to live as we see fit. and that includes all the pains of death, along w/ the joys of love. life isnt easy no matter what. we must take the bad w/ the good...
i dont know what yer beliefs are, so i wont try to judge u. i simply believe that these acts on this country were inspired by evil. through it all, however, i can still hold a strong faith. it is the strong in perserverence(sp?) who survive. dont let the bad times lead u away, for there will always be hope...even when evil comes close to home...
could a god 'exist' as something in the world: to exist would mean to be a thing to be limited to have measure... god does not 'exist'
for the most part 'god' is a term that allows people to cope with a world that would turn us all into quivering idiots if we didn't have easy stories through which we explain it, and that would be just the reaction to the full onslought of the wonder at life, then, ontop of that there is the fact of Death and also unavoidable suffering of millions and millions and then throw in malicious cruelty by arrogant god-driven fools and yu want something like a all seeing bearded one in the sky?!?!?!
As for pride: how is saying that god does not exist pridefull: I agree with groverat, doesn't hoping that there is a God that cares for little ole me just a little self centered, selfish even.... and if you say there is then isn't that a little pridefull?!?!?
As for pride: how is saying that god does not exist pridefull: I agree with groverat, doesn't hoping that there is a God that cares for little ole me just a little self centered, selfish even.... and if you say there is then isn't that a little pridefull?!?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>
is it not prideful to think that we know that there is no God? to just declare it as fact? to think we know so much is indeed related to pride...
I am watching the show right now. we just got to Sept 11th in the morning. Powerful stuff. I Started recording it after I thought about it. (kicking myself for not recording at teh beginning).
<strong>doesn't hoping that there is a God that cares for little ole me just a little self centered, selfish even.... and if you say there is then isn't that a little pridefull?!?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>
ON THE CONTRARY, pfflam! By *believing* in God, you are saying to yourself "I don't need to handle this life on my own. I'm going to rely on a higher being for love, support, and compassion when I get none from the world." You give up your selfish ways and realize that you don't have to be all big and bad, dealing with all your problems yourself. It's called humility.
That's what I love so much about God. He doesn't expect us to deal with this life on our own. He KNOWS that we have to go through excruciating events in our lives. He did not create them or cause them to be, but He can certainly be there with us to weather the storm...
...if we CHOOSE to. God gave us free will, and therefore he will never MAKE us believe in Him. We must choose to believe.
I love the long-standing philisophical question: Can God make a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it? My answer is yes. He has, and it's called Free Will (a.k.a. agency). In a way, I feel it's a test for Himself. It's the perfect scenario.
Think about this: You're God. You've existed forever, you're getting kind of bored, and you want to know how good you really are at being God. How about you create humanity and then give them free will? Then, you have companions in your existance, but the test is yet to come. Can you, as God, give humanity free will, and then promote yourself well enough to have them CHOOSE you? In a way, that's a rock that God cannot lift, and a test to see how good God is at being (cue big echoey voice) Supreme Ruler of the Universe.
Now, my argument is that we have nothing to lose from accepting, loving, and believing in God. He gets what He wants, and we get an easier life. Oh, yeah, well, you have try to give up stuff like sin and such -- but you didn't really need that anyway.
My life is so much more enjoyable now that I have God in it. I don't have to deal with stress on my own, and even when everybody else has "forsaken" me, God never will. He just wants praise and glory (He's very egocentric that way, but hey, He's God).
So back to where I started: Am I self-centered in believing in God? I don't possibly see how I could be.
EDIT FOLLOWS:
To bring all this back to 9/11, I had a very difficult time with God for about two days. I even got to a very brief point where I doubted His existance. I asked myself the same questions many people did: "How could God allow this to happen?" "Where was God when the planes hit the buildings and both towers collapsed?"
He was with those who were dying. He held the hand of the woman who jumped to save herself from burning to death. He saved the life of the Pentagon worker who left to go get coffee just long enough to be spared. He was with all those on Flight 93, who helped force the plane into the ground to save countless others. He was with each and every person all over the world who sat terrified in front of a TV screen as the events of 9/11 unfolded.
I believe in a God who can give us inner peace when there seems to be none. He showed me that peace when I asked him to the day after 9/11. No one else could but Him.
I can't make you believe. You have to choose. I just pray that at some point, you'll realize that apart from all the scientific study that's been commissioned to explain away God, He's still there. He still wants you to know Him. Why not give it a shot. You have nothing to lose but your OWN ego.
If you believe that God made men, then it is his fault.
If I create a killer robot, am I not to blame when the robot kills?
[quote]the men were obviously influenced by evil, even though they hid behind the shrouds of "faith," which of course is bullsh*t.<hr></blockquote>
They were influenced by their god, not by evil. You don't know what's bullshit and what's not, you're being (what you would call) "prideful".
[quote]so u think that cause a few thousand people were murdered that there is no God?<hr></blockquote>
No, I don't think the god that most people believe in exists. When I said, "all this death for a God that doesn't exist" I meant the people who were motivated to kill thousands. Their god doesn't exist.
Me thinking "there is no God" is just an expression of desparation, not necessarily an expression of my belief or non-belief.
[quote]u claim indifference, but i see it more as free-will.<hr></blockquote>
There is no such thing as free-will. In a world where you believe in god all things are pre-destined. Free-will is an illusion.
[quote]through it all, however, i can still hold a strong faith.<hr></blockquote>
A strong faith that might, say, lead you to fly a plane into a building filled with thousands of those you would call "evil"?
CosmoNut:
[quote]That's what I love so much about God. He doesn't expect us to deal with this life on our own.<hr></blockquote>
I respect your deep faith. Quite frankly, I admire you for it. I am not of the school of those that say ignorant things like "people need religion as a crutch". To me, people who say that are using their own belief systems as a crutch.
[quote] If you believe that God made men, then it is his fault.
If I create a killer robot, am I not to blame when the robot kills?
<hr></blockquote>
oh, so i suppose uv never heard of Satan then, eh?
[quote] They were influenced by their god, not by evil. You don't know what's bullshit and what's not, you're being (what you would call) "prideful".
<hr></blockquote>
no. their religion says NOTHING about killing innocent people. they were fanatics influenced by an evil MAN.
[quote] Me thinking "there is no God" is just an expression of desparation, not necessarily an expression of my belief or non-belief.
<hr></blockquote>
granted.
[quote] There is no such thing as free-will. In a world where you believe in god all things are pre-destined. Free-will is an illusion.
<hr></blockquote>
no. u got it all wrong. God gave us free will. we either choose to accept him, or we choose the world. the choice that he gave us is what determines our outcome. we choose our own path. dont say that things are pre-destined just cause we believe in God. the whole basis of the Christian faith is that we choose to follow right or wrong.
[quote] A strong faith that might, say, lead you to fly a plane into a building filled with thousands of those you would call "evil"?
<hr></blockquote>
the stupidity of that comment should get no response...but i will still give one. yet again, it was the corruption of the faith, not the faith itself that led those men to murder. no where in the muslim faith does it say that murder is EVER justified. but yes, if u are a follower of satan, then sure, a strong faith would lead to those evil actions.
I just watched it. Battalion Chief Pfeiffer was something else...he didn't make a single flawed decision and got all of his men out.
I had my doubts about the documentary, but definitely not after watching it. It's spooky how dramatic it was. The entire thing could have been out of a Hollywood script, but it was real.
It's incredible how everything fell into place, the innocent documentary, the gas leak that sent them out just a few blocks from the WTC just before they caught the first crash on camera. The second crash, the two collapses...the trickling in of all the guys from Engine 7, Ladder 1 back at the station, amazed they all made it out.
People should consider that the media has only up to now given us a fairly sugar coated version of the goings on at ground zero. I remember reading about a victums bodies being recovered that have the skin around their fingernails missing (trying to dig out). I also read about one that apparantly had partial digested food in his stomach and the rest of his snack found in his hand (might have lived long enough to get hungry and eat part of a snack). Real sad and morbid stuff. Millions of tales of sadness surround this event.
I see a few things in this thread that strike me odd.
First, why does everyone call these terrorists cowards? A coward would never go on a suicide mission! They made the ultimate sacrifice for their cause! As stupid and evil as their cause is.
The whole existance/nonexistance of God argument is only hot wind at best. Their is no measurable evidence to prove or disprove his/her/its existance. Only anecdotal and subjective experience. Everything else is speculative. So usually these types of arguments goes to the best arguer. Really religion (or lack of religion) is a matter of personal choice. It is understandable that everyone wants to share their beleifs, but to push it as fact is not defendable.
Comments
It's a horrible thing.
It's all very abstract until the people jump from windows and crash violently and loudly below. It's difficult to not feel extreme anger when you hear people crashing down loudly all around knowing that it's the work of cowards and madmen.
I couldn't help but think "there is no god" as the firemen tried to find a way out where they weren't in danger of being crushed by the people who were throwing themselves out of windows over a thousand feet up to escape overwhelming flame and destruction.
All this death over a god that doesn't exist.
<strong>
All this death over a god that doesn't exist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
easy there grover. there is no hope in pride.
<strong>Explain what you mean, I'm not following.</strong><hr></blockquote>
saying that God "does not exist" is very prideful. how arrogant to say that u "know" for fact. if u say that u dont believe there is a God, thats one thing. but dont say that there is no God, cause that makes u sound just as ignorant as saying that evolution is impossible.
There might be some god that created us, but if there is he's gone. Or maybe he was just warming the hearts of those that fell a thousand feet to their death because other people thought they should die for him.
"It is in my plan that you should splatter on a sidewalk 300 yards below you, be comforted."
The EXACT same mentality that these fruitcake cowards used to fly planes into buildings full of innocents. "It is in my plan that you should murder thousands whose loss will be tragic, be comforted."
---
Hedging your bets is not what your God wants, alliance.
Rev. 3:15-16
<strong>It's only prideful if you believe in a god that actually gives a shit about what goes on.
There might be some god that created us, but if there is he's gone. Or maybe he was just warming the hearts of those that fell a thousand feet to their death because other people thought they should die for him.
"It is in my plan that you should splatter on a sidewalk 300 yards below you, be comforted."
The EXACT same mentality that these fruitcake cowards used to fly planes into buildings full of innocents. "It is in my plan that you should murder thousands whose loss will be tragic, be comforted."
---
Hedging your bets is not what your God wants, alliance.
Rev. 3:15-16</strong><hr></blockquote>
hmm...a true pessimist...
sounds like me
these are not actions made by God, grover. these are actions made by men. blame the men, not God. the men were obviously influenced by evil, even though they hid behind the shrouds of "faith," which of course is bullsh*t. claiming to do something to serve God is one thing. but doing this by killing thousands of innocents is quite another. so u think that cause a few thousand people were murdered that there is no God? unfortunately, i can think of worse opportunities to turn away from potential faith--the World Wars are much worse...
however, yet again i must stress that these are man-made pains. dont blame God on something that we did to ourselves. u claim indifference, but i see it more as free-will. what do u expect? for Him to suddenly come down and stop the planes from destroying the building??? no. its not that easy. he gave us our own lives to live as we see fit. and that includes all the pains of death, along w/ the joys of love. life isnt easy no matter what. we must take the bad w/ the good...
i dont know what yer beliefs are, so i wont try to judge u. i simply believe that these acts on this country were inspired by evil. through it all, however, i can still hold a strong faith. it is the strong in perserverence(sp?) who survive. dont let the bad times lead u away, for there will always be hope...even when evil comes close to home...
As for the existence of God!!
could a god 'exist' as something in the world: to exist would mean to be a thing to be limited to have measure... god does not 'exist'
for the most part 'god' is a term that allows people to cope with a world that would turn us all into quivering idiots if we didn't have easy stories through which we explain it, and that would be just the reaction to the full onslought of the wonder at life, then, ontop of that there is the fact of Death and also unavoidable suffering of millions and millions and then throw in malicious cruelty by arrogant god-driven fools and yu want something like a all seeing bearded one in the sky?!?!?!
As for pride: how is saying that god does not exist pridefull: I agree with groverat, doesn't hoping that there is a God that cares for little ole me just a little self centered, selfish even.... and if you say there is then isn't that a little pridefull?!?!?
<strong>
As for pride: how is saying that god does not exist pridefull: I agree with groverat, doesn't hoping that there is a God that cares for little ole me just a little self centered, selfish even.... and if you say there is then isn't that a little pridefull?!?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>
is it not prideful to think that we know that there is no God? to just declare it as fact? to think we know so much is indeed related to pride...
bah! oh well...
<strong>doesn't hoping that there is a God that cares for little ole me just a little self centered, selfish even.... and if you say there is then isn't that a little pridefull?!?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>
ON THE CONTRARY, pfflam! By *believing* in God, you are saying to yourself "I don't need to handle this life on my own. I'm going to rely on a higher being for love, support, and compassion when I get none from the world." You give up your selfish ways and realize that you don't have to be all big and bad, dealing with all your problems yourself. It's called humility.
That's what I love so much about God. He doesn't expect us to deal with this life on our own. He KNOWS that we have to go through excruciating events in our lives. He did not create them or cause them to be, but He can certainly be there with us to weather the storm...
...if we CHOOSE to. God gave us free will, and therefore he will never MAKE us believe in Him. We must choose to believe.
I love the long-standing philisophical question: Can God make a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it? My answer is yes. He has, and it's called Free Will (a.k.a. agency). In a way, I feel it's a test for Himself. It's the perfect scenario.
Think about this: You're God. You've existed forever, you're getting kind of bored, and you want to know how good you really are at being God. How about you create humanity and then give them free will? Then, you have companions in your existance, but the test is yet to come. Can you, as God, give humanity free will, and then promote yourself well enough to have them CHOOSE you? In a way, that's a rock that God cannot lift, and a test to see how good God is at being (cue big echoey voice) Supreme Ruler of the Universe.
Now, my argument is that we have nothing to lose from accepting, loving, and believing in God. He gets what He wants, and we get an easier life. Oh, yeah, well, you have try to give up stuff like sin and such -- but you didn't really need that anyway.
My life is so much more enjoyable now that I have God in it. I don't have to deal with stress on my own, and even when everybody else has "forsaken" me, God never will. He just wants praise and glory (He's very egocentric that way, but hey, He's God).
So back to where I started: Am I self-centered in believing in God? I don't possibly see how I could be.
EDIT FOLLOWS:
To bring all this back to 9/11, I had a very difficult time with God for about two days. I even got to a very brief point where I doubted His existance. I asked myself the same questions many people did: "How could God allow this to happen?" "Where was God when the planes hit the buildings and both towers collapsed?"
He was with those who were dying. He held the hand of the woman who jumped to save herself from burning to death. He saved the life of the Pentagon worker who left to go get coffee just long enough to be spared. He was with all those on Flight 93, who helped force the plane into the ground to save countless others. He was with each and every person all over the world who sat terrified in front of a TV screen as the events of 9/11 unfolded.
I believe in a God who can give us inner peace when there seems to be none. He showed me that peace when I asked him to the day after 9/11. No one else could but Him.
I can't make you believe. You have to choose. I just pray that at some point, you'll realize that apart from all the scientific study that's been commissioned to explain away God, He's still there. He still wants you to know Him. Why not give it a shot. You have nothing to lose but your OWN ego.
[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
If you believe that God made men, then it is his fault.
If I create a killer robot, am I not to blame when the robot kills?
[quote]the men were obviously influenced by evil, even though they hid behind the shrouds of "faith," which of course is bullsh*t.<hr></blockquote>
They were influenced by their god, not by evil. You don't know what's bullshit and what's not, you're being (what you would call) "prideful".
[quote]so u think that cause a few thousand people were murdered that there is no God?<hr></blockquote>
No, I don't think the god that most people believe in exists. When I said, "all this death for a God that doesn't exist" I meant the people who were motivated to kill thousands. Their god doesn't exist.
Me thinking "there is no God" is just an expression of desparation, not necessarily an expression of my belief or non-belief.
[quote]u claim indifference, but i see it more as free-will.<hr></blockquote>
There is no such thing as free-will. In a world where you believe in god all things are pre-destined. Free-will is an illusion.
[quote]through it all, however, i can still hold a strong faith.<hr></blockquote>
A strong faith that might, say, lead you to fly a plane into a building filled with thousands of those you would call "evil"?
CosmoNut:
[quote]That's what I love so much about God. He doesn't expect us to deal with this life on our own.<hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Except for when we **** up, it's all our fault!
"All glory be to god! All shit be to man!"
I respect your deep faith. Quite frankly, I admire you for it. I am not of the school of those that say ignorant things like "people need religion as a crutch". To me, people who say that are using their own belief systems as a crutch.
If I'm wrong and there really ISN'T a God, then I...spent a lot of time believing.
If I'm RIGHT and there really IS a God, you all will have a lot of 'splaining to do.
[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
If I create a killer robot, am I not to blame when the robot kills?
<hr></blockquote>
oh, so i suppose uv never heard of Satan then, eh?
[quote] They were influenced by their god, not by evil. You don't know what's bullshit and what's not, you're being (what you would call) "prideful".
<hr></blockquote>
no. their religion says NOTHING about killing innocent people. they were fanatics influenced by an evil MAN.
[quote] Me thinking "there is no God" is just an expression of desparation, not necessarily an expression of my belief or non-belief.
<hr></blockquote>
granted.
[quote] There is no such thing as free-will. In a world where you believe in god all things are pre-destined. Free-will is an illusion.
<hr></blockquote>
no. u got it all wrong. God gave us free will. we either choose to accept him, or we choose the world. the choice that he gave us is what determines our outcome. we choose our own path. dont say that things are pre-destined just cause we believe in God. the whole basis of the Christian faith is that we choose to follow right or wrong.
[quote] A strong faith that might, say, lead you to fly a plane into a building filled with thousands of those you would call "evil"?
<hr></blockquote>
the stupidity of that comment should get no response...but i will still give one. yet again, it was the corruption of the faith, not the faith itself that led those men to murder. no where in the muslim faith does it say that murder is EVER justified. but yes, if u are a follower of satan, then sure, a strong faith would lead to those evil actions.
<strong>For all those of you who'd like to explain away God, think of it this way: You'd better hope you're right.
If I'm wrong and there really ISN'T a God, then I...spent a lot of time believing.
If I'm RIGHT and there really IS a God, you all will have a lot of 'splaining to do.
[ 03-11-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
exactly.
living a good life in the Christian way is a win-win situation. if yer right, u go to heaven. if yer wrong, u still led a good life.
however, if u live however the hell u want to live, and yer wrong about yer beliefs...well...have fun w/ hades...
I just watched it. Battalion Chief Pfeiffer was something else...he didn't make a single flawed decision and got all of his men out.
I had my doubts about the documentary, but definitely not after watching it. It's spooky how dramatic it was. The entire thing could have been out of a Hollywood script, but it was real.
It's incredible how everything fell into place, the innocent documentary, the gas leak that sent them out just a few blocks from the WTC just before they caught the first crash on camera. The second crash, the two collapses...the trickling in of all the guys from Engine 7, Ladder 1 back at the station, amazed they all made it out.
I'm in disbelief.
I see a few things in this thread that strike me odd.
First, why does everyone call these terrorists cowards? A coward would never go on a suicide mission! They made the ultimate sacrifice for their cause! As stupid and evil as their cause is.
The whole existance/nonexistance of God argument is only hot wind at best. Their is no measurable evidence to prove or disprove his/her/its existance. Only anecdotal and subjective experience. Everything else is speculative. So usually these types of arguments goes to the best arguer. Really religion (or lack of religion) is a matter of personal choice. It is understandable that everyone wants to share their beleifs, but to push it as fact is not defendable.