<strong>The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to put some of this in perspective, morticians get paid from people dying too. Some judges get paid to give people the death penalty. Our U.S. military is getting paid to kill people all over the world. That's not my argument either way on your...discussion, just an observation.
As a broadcaster, I can't get upset that someone got paid for the CBS show. In this world, you get paid for services you render. If that means creating a documentary on September 11th, so be it. It was a meaningful experience for nearly all who viewed it, so let it be.
What the hell do they care about the $ from this? I mean with this on their resume, they can get any job they want--do any project they want... they are made for the rest of their lives... they dont need $ from this documentary, they will make it somewhere else!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
1.) True, but you could put a gun to my head and I still wouldn't care how much money they got.
2.) They've probably already done their best work. They'll never again do anything as important as this.
3.) I hope my friend (the one whose cousin died at the WTC) and the rest of his family didn't watch it.
WARNING: I haven´t seen the documentary yet and write this only on the basis of what I have read about it.
I don´t think they are heroes or anything like that. They were cameramen doing their biggest scoop. As I see it they either.
1. Just reacted per reflects and just started filming. Many of those who did heroic acts like helping people down the stairs at the risk of their own lifes aso and later died have probably done the same to shut out the terrible happening around them.
2. Was very aware and calculated their scoop up against the risk to their lifes.
Neither of these possibilities makes them heroes but nowhere the opposite either despite what they got from it.
But what I am much more concerned about is what is going on in war zones. Remember Sniper Street? Among journalists who were there its well known that some of them paid locals to cross areas where they risked to get shot to get good pictures (not of people dying but an area where people run for their lifes instead of an empty field). And in other conflicts (also in Afghanistan) locals are paid to film in high risk areas where western journalist don´t dare to go. This is awful behavour.
2) I expect that they will never do anything as important at this, the contrary will be very sad
3)I think that your friend and his family have watch it or will watch it. In this case the family want to know, how was the last moments of his life. I said that because, on all the reports of process of murderer, the family want to know how the member of the family has died even if the truth is horrible.
<strong>WARNING: I haven´t seen the documentary yet and write this only on the basis of what I have read about it.
I don´t think they are heroes or anything like that. They were cameramen doing their biggest scoop. As I see it they either.
1. Just reacted per reflects and just started filming. Many of those who did heroic acts like helping people down the stairs at the risk of their own lifes aso and later died have probably done the same to shut out the terrible happening around them.
2. Was very aware and calculated their scoop up against the risk to their lifes.
Neither of these possibilities makes them heroes but nowhere the opposite either despite what they got from it.
But what I am much more concerned about is what is going on in war zones. Remember Sniper Street? Among journalists who were there its well known that some of them paid locals to cross areas where they risked to get shot to get good pictures (not of people dying but an area where people run for their lifes instead of an empty field). And in other conflicts (also in Afghanistan) locals are paid to film in high risk areas where western journalist don´t dare to go. This is awful behavour. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, indeed during the interview they where very humble, just confirming that they reacted by reflex. As you said they never, pretended to be heroe, just the rights guys at the rights place. Anyway their testimony are very important both for beeing the whitness of the drama, and for analysis about the fantastic job commited byÂ*the firemen.
I do not see this testimony, but i have ear that we do not see dead guy in this report, just ear horrible noise coming from falling corpse outside the building.
I will be more upset, if a producer will make many money with a moovie reconstitution of the drama.
<strong>The firemen get paid to help people live. The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying. Get the difference? I'm sure you don't or you wouldn't have brought it up in teh first place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The brother who went into the WTC Tower 1 lobby was not a professional. When he first entered the lobby he heard then saw victims burning from the jet fuel right next to him. He decided not to film their suffering...in some ways the worst decision a professional could do. But he felt for them and didn't record their suffering.
Most professionals damn the torpedos and just shoot...with him that came later. It became so overwhelming he had no choice. Uh, I don't know where I am going with this but Scott H...it is a job...that's what they get paid to do. To record events as they happen. When they happen. Impartially.
"Someone had to be the messenger and I guess we were chosen for this..." the other brother said in the beginning of the documentary.
Regarding the 9/11 on CBS, I think that this was well done and in very good taste. The filmers clearly stated that they were doing a documentary on the firemen. It was really good to see that first and get a bit of a background on the men in that firehouse.
For all the footage they had, it was impressive that only the initial plane's impact was shown on TV. I kinda wonder how that happened.
They had plently of chances to film horrible stuff (dead people, body parts..) the one filmer was someone on fire, he said "I refused to film them because nobody should have to see that". That is class.
Overall this was an amazing experience at seeing what it was like being right at "ground zero".
my moms birthday is on the now offical 9-11 memorial day...I am annoyed with that but..whatever.
as for god existing or not...you really think that god doesn't exist because thousands of people died in _america_
so does god exist when millions of people die all over the world in even more tragic circumstances? it is very selfish thinking that god is betraying america, or doesn't exist or "how could this happen...where was god?", when millions all over the world who believe in a god or multiple gods or whatever..die all the time of starvation and neglect, sometimes indirectly caused by America.
its like when something is working for you, love it, but when it works against you, you hate it.
or vice-versa...don't get me wrong, I think that it was tragedy, no one deserves the fate bestowed upon them by imbeciles and hypocritical fanatics that have forgotten what their TRUE purpose is, I grieve for the lives lost on 9-11, Its a terrible shame, but I also grieve for lives lost all over the world, to situatins just as dire or more so. america has become such a superpower that its like...we can destroy whoever whenever but when they hit us all of a sudden its "where's our god?"
and that mentality annoys me.
I personally don't really beieve in god, although I have no basis for disbelieving or for believing so I remain relativly unaffiliated(I was born unaffiliated...i was baptized episcipalian when i was like 13, and I skipped my confirmation when I was 14, so technically I don't belong to the church anymore)
I think that what happened on sept. 11th, was totally ****ed up, alot of innocent people who I'm sure had NOTHING against muslims, were killed by crazy fanatics that THINK they are supposed to kill people just because....when in reality, no one should ever kill anyone just because...and islam tells us that all are equal, christians, jews, muslims alike, all followers of the same god, only they are following different paths, but we are not suposed to hate or kill others because we will all meet the same destination anyway.
[quote]God creates us and the world. Life is predetermined. In God's eyes, you are already in heaven or hell. Tell me, what is free will when your fate is sealed? It's "free will" to us because we don't know, that's all. It's an illusion to us because we don't know.<hr></blockquote>
Wow!!! A grand pronouncement by the almighty spiritual sage Groverat! What piece of trendy pop-theology have you been digesting?
To (roughly) quote Carl Sagan (RIP): "Extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence. Lets see the evidence".
Can't we all just admit that to date we just don't know (yet) about the hows whats and whys this universe and (human) consciousness came into being? I really doubt that that analysing some writings from 2000-3500 years back from some arbitrary group of humans in the middle east is going to provide us with concrete and rational answers.
All those weird happenings in Exodus (and others), such as what Moses witnessed on Sinai, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the 'burning bush', the pillar of cloud/fire, and Ezekiel's visions of "metal shields" in the sky etc. etc. etc. were events attributed to "God". I'm no fan of von Daniken etc, but 'technological' and 'human' (or alien??) explanations for these events sound more rational than some "God-of-the-entire-Universe" suddenly paying close attention to some band of displaced people wandering the desert in search of a home.
We love to explain (or attempt to) by attributing human catastrophes to mythical forces outside of ourselves, such as Satan in the case of 9-11 (or gay men, the counterculture and liberals if you subscribe to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's wacky point of view). It's all part of human reluctance to take responsibility for humanity's grossest actions. 9-11 was the result of peoples' actions only, by desperate men, brainwashed, bound and gagged by the total inhuman, authoritarian and unrealistic nature of religion gone mad (yet again, yet again, yet again).
But I'm not here going to say that there is no Devil, and no God, because I have no satisfactory proof or evidence back up that claim. Similarly, when people go bandying on about God, or angels, or Satan or whatever, can you all give us something convincing, evidence, exhibits A, B and C to support your wild claims...the type of that would stand up in a court of law?
Perhaps the reluctance to drop the "God" thing is because we are as a species, individually and collectively scared witless that we may after all be merely a collection of cells and electrical charges, and we need some justification for our existence, and once we have spent our 77 odd years on this little ball of spinning rock, that may just be the end of it all, and life after death may be just a result of mass-wishful thinking, (or a suspension of rational thought perhaps, considering the overwhelming lack of evidence for life after death?) Is our individual consciousness an illusion of brain chemistry? I don't know, and neither does anyone else.
Can't we just for now, until science comes to our rescue, drop our arrogance and admit that we just have no clue?
Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
But I'm not here going to say that there is no Devil, and no God, because I have no satisfactory proof or evidence back up that claim. Similarly, when people go bandying on about God, or angels, or Satan or whatever, can you all give us something convincing, evidence, exhibits A, B and C to support your wild claims...the type of that would stand up in a court of law? </strong><hr></blockquote>
To those of you who require this "evidence," you're not going to get it. That's kind of the whole idea of choosing to BELIEVE. I will probably never be able to give you an Exhibit A, B, or C that God absolutely exists. Honestly, there is none.
I choose to believe for my own peace of mind, and what beliefs I have had have been backed up by my own experiences and the testimonies of others.
On the flip side of your wanting proof of God's existance, I'd love for someone to come up with evidence that unequivvicably proves that God DOES NOT exist. I doubt anyone can do that, either.
Again, it's all about what you choose to believe in.
<strong>Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................</strong><hr></blockquote>
most atheists don't care to preach their views, whereas die-hard religous nuts...thats all they do.
I think its sad when people just say " h that was god's work" or "god is smiling on me today" and"god this..."" god that"
god milk?
I guess its in my nature to be open and try and see things from many angles...it seems that if you fervidly believe in god, your ability to see all the perspectives becomes very narrow.
To those of you who require this "evidence," you're not going to get it. That's kind of the whole idea of choosing to BELIEVE. I will probably never be able to give you an Exhibit A, B, or C that God absolutely exists. Honestly, there is none.
I choose to believe for my own peace of mind, and what beliefs I have had have been backed up by my own experiences and the testimonies of others.
On the flip side of your wanting proof of God's existance, I'd love for someone to come up with evidence that unequivvicably proves that God DOES NOT exist. I doubt anyone can do that, either.
Again, it's all about what you choose to believe in.
<strong>Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't know many Christians, huh?
[quote]<strong>No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are no alcoholic atheists? No atheists who use drugs? Or committ crime? You can't really believe this so why the bullshit? What are you hiding?
[quote]To those of you who require this "evidence," you're not going to get it. That's kind of the whole idea of choosing to BELIEVE. I will probably never be able to give you an Exhibit A, B, or C that God absolutely exists. Honestly, there is none.<hr></blockquote>
I was raised Christian by my family, but it made less and less sense to me as I went thru my teens, and by the time I started in college I abandoned it...the whole big business/corporate/manipulative and controlling nature of "big religion" seemed so far removed from the teaching of Jesus Christ himself.
Also I now find it really tough to base my life and outlook on myth, legend, old wrtings and suppositions; it seems so much of a flimsy tighrope to walk upon. So I am skeptical about "deity"...I think I would gladly accept it if I had solid *proof* which was enough to pass my personal tests, but mere *belief* will never cut it for me. I kow many people who have had what they describe as *proof*. Maybe they are the lucky ones!
Comments
Thanks for proving my point.
<strong>The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to put some of this in perspective, morticians get paid from people dying too. Some judges get paid to give people the death penalty. Our U.S. military is getting paid to kill people all over the world. That's not my argument either way on your...discussion, just an observation.
As a broadcaster, I can't get upset that someone got paid for the CBS show. In this world, you get paid for services you render. If that means creating a documentary on September 11th, so be it. It was a meaningful experience for nearly all who viewed it, so let it be.
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
<strong>
What the hell do they care about the $ from this? I mean with this on their resume, they can get any job they want--do any project they want... they are made for the rest of their lives... they dont need $ from this documentary, they will make it somewhere else!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
1.) True, but you could put a gun to my head and I still wouldn't care how much money they got.
2.) They've probably already done their best work. They'll never again do anything as important as this.
3.) I hope my friend (the one whose cousin died at the WTC) and the rest of his family didn't watch it.
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
I don´t think they are heroes or anything like that. They were cameramen doing their biggest scoop. As I see it they either.
1. Just reacted per reflects and just started filming. Many of those who did heroic acts like helping people down the stairs at the risk of their own lifes aso and later died have probably done the same to shut out the terrible happening around them.
2. Was very aware and calculated their scoop up against the risk to their lifes.
Neither of these possibilities makes them heroes but nowhere the opposite either despite what they got from it.
But what I am much more concerned about is what is going on in war zones. Remember Sniper Street? Among journalists who were there its well known that some of them paid locals to cross areas where they risked to get shot to get good pictures (not of people dying but an area where people run for their lifes instead of an empty field). And in other conflicts (also in Afghanistan) locals are paid to film in high risk areas where western journalist don´t dare to go. This is awful behavour.
<strong>
1.) True, but you could put a gun to my head and I still wouldn't care how much money they got.
2.) They've probably already done their best work. They'll never again do anything as important as this.
3.) I hope my friend (the one whose cousin died at the WTC) and the rest of his family didn't watch it.
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
2) I expect that they will never do anything as important at this, the contrary will be very sad
3)I think that your friend and his family have watch it or will watch it. In this case the family want to know, how was the last moments of his life. I said that because, on all the reports of process of murderer, the family want to know how the member of the family has died even if the truth is horrible.
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
<strong>WARNING: I haven´t seen the documentary yet and write this only on the basis of what I have read about it.
I don´t think they are heroes or anything like that. They were cameramen doing their biggest scoop. As I see it they either.
1. Just reacted per reflects and just started filming. Many of those who did heroic acts like helping people down the stairs at the risk of their own lifes aso and later died have probably done the same to shut out the terrible happening around them.
2. Was very aware and calculated their scoop up against the risk to their lifes.
Neither of these possibilities makes them heroes but nowhere the opposite either despite what they got from it.
But what I am much more concerned about is what is going on in war zones. Remember Sniper Street? Among journalists who were there its well known that some of them paid locals to cross areas where they risked to get shot to get good pictures (not of people dying but an area where people run for their lifes instead of an empty field). And in other conflicts (also in Afghanistan) locals are paid to film in high risk areas where western journalist don´t dare to go. This is awful behavour.
Yes, indeed during the interview they where very humble, just confirming that they reacted by reflex. As you said they never, pretended to be heroe, just the rights guys at the rights place. Anyway their testimony are very important both for beeing the whitness of the drama, and for analysis about the fantastic job commited byÂ*the firemen.
I do not see this testimony, but i have ear that we do not see dead guy in this report, just ear horrible noise coming from falling corpse outside the building.
I will be more upset, if a producer will make many money with a moovie reconstitution of the drama.
<strong>The firemen get paid to help people live. The people who shot the video are making money by video taping people dying. Get the difference? I'm sure you don't or you wouldn't have brought it up in teh first place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The brother who went into the WTC Tower 1 lobby was not a professional. When he first entered the lobby he heard then saw victims burning from the jet fuel right next to him. He decided not to film their suffering...in some ways the worst decision a professional could do. But he felt for them and didn't record their suffering.
Most professionals damn the torpedos and just shoot...with him that came later. It became so overwhelming he had no choice. Uh, I don't know where I am going with this but Scott H...it is a job...that's what they get paid to do. To record events as they happen. When they happen. Impartially.
"Someone had to be the messenger and I guess we were chosen for this..." the other brother said in the beginning of the documentary.
For all the footage they had, it was impressive that only the initial plane's impact was shown on TV. I kinda wonder how that happened.
They had plently of chances to film horrible stuff (dead people, body parts..) the one filmer was someone on fire, he said "I refused to film them because nobody should have to see that". That is class.
Overall this was an amazing experience at seeing what it was like being right at "ground zero".
as for god existing or not...you really think that god doesn't exist because thousands of people died in _america_
so does god exist when millions of people die all over the world in even more tragic circumstances? it is very selfish thinking that god is betraying america, or doesn't exist or "how could this happen...where was god?", when millions all over the world who believe in a god or multiple gods or whatever..die all the time of starvation and neglect, sometimes indirectly caused by America.
its like when something is working for you, love it, but when it works against you, you hate it.
or vice-versa...don't get me wrong, I think that it was tragedy, no one deserves the fate bestowed upon them by imbeciles and hypocritical fanatics that have forgotten what their TRUE purpose is, I grieve for the lives lost on 9-11, Its a terrible shame, but I also grieve for lives lost all over the world, to situatins just as dire or more so. america has become such a superpower that its like...we can destroy whoever whenever but when they hit us all of a sudden its "where's our god?"
and that mentality annoys me.
I personally don't really beieve in god, although I have no basis for disbelieving or for believing so I remain relativly unaffiliated(I was born unaffiliated...i was baptized episcipalian when i was like 13, and I skipped my confirmation when I was 14, so technically I don't belong to the church anymore)
I think that what happened on sept. 11th, was totally ****ed up, alot of innocent people who I'm sure had NOTHING against muslims, were killed by crazy fanatics that THINK they are supposed to kill people just because....when in reality, no one should ever kill anyone just because...and islam tells us that all are equal, christians, jews, muslims alike, all followers of the same god, only they are following different paths, but we are not suposed to hate or kill others because we will all meet the same destination anyway.
Generally I don't give a shit because it's not my country. If I spent every moment that someone died in despair I would live my life in despair.
Take your moral lesson and shove it up your ass. Thanks.
(Of course, I also don't celebrate in the streets with Palestinians die...)
Can we please keep the personal abuse to a minimum? Or at least e-mail each other the nasty insults so everyone else doesn't have to share? Thank you.
[Edit: And this goes for the Israelis and Palestinians, too.]
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
<strong>You! Yes, you! You know who you are!
Can we please keep the personal abuse to a minimum? Or at least e-mail each other the nasty insults so everyone else doesn't have to share? Thank you.
[Edit: And this goes for the Israelis and Palestinians, too.]
</strong><hr></blockquote>
In that case, Belle check your e-mail.
J <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
PS Just kidding, love ya really!
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Jamie ]</p>
Wow!!! A grand pronouncement by the almighty spiritual sage Groverat!
To (roughly) quote Carl Sagan (RIP): "Extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence. Lets see the evidence".
Can't we all just admit that to date we just don't know (yet) about the hows whats and whys this universe and (human) consciousness came into being? I really doubt that that analysing some writings from 2000-3500 years back from some arbitrary group of humans in the middle east is going to provide us with concrete and rational answers.
All those weird happenings in Exodus (and others), such as what Moses witnessed on Sinai, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the 'burning bush', the pillar of cloud/fire, and Ezekiel's visions of "metal shields" in the sky etc. etc. etc. were events attributed to "God". I'm no fan of von Daniken etc, but 'technological' and 'human' (or alien??) explanations for these events sound more rational than some "God-of-the-entire-Universe" suddenly paying close attention to some band of displaced people wandering the desert in search of a home.
We love to explain (or attempt to) by attributing human catastrophes to mythical forces outside of ourselves, such as Satan in the case of 9-11 (or gay men, the counterculture and liberals if you subscribe to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell's wacky point of view). It's all part of human reluctance to take responsibility for humanity's grossest actions. 9-11 was the result of peoples' actions only, by desperate men, brainwashed, bound and gagged by the total inhuman, authoritarian and unrealistic nature of religion gone mad (yet again, yet again, yet again).
But I'm not here going to say that there is no Devil, and no God, because I have no satisfactory proof or evidence back up that claim. Similarly, when people go bandying on about God, or angels, or Satan or whatever, can you all give us something convincing, evidence, exhibits A, B and C to support your wild claims...the type of that would stand up in a court of law?
Perhaps the reluctance to drop the "God" thing is because we are as a species, individually and collectively scared witless that we may after all be merely a collection of cells and electrical charges, and we need some justification for our existence, and once we have spent our 77 odd years on this little ball of spinning rock, that may just be the end of it all, and life after death may be just a result of mass-wishful thinking, (or a suspension of rational thought perhaps, considering the overwhelming lack of evidence for life after death?) Is our individual consciousness an illusion of brain chemistry? I don't know, and neither does anyone else.
Can't we just for now, until science comes to our rescue, drop our arrogance and admit that we just have no clue?
<strong>
But I'm not here going to say that there is no Devil, and no God, because I have no satisfactory proof or evidence back up that claim. Similarly, when people go bandying on about God, or angels, or Satan or whatever, can you all give us something convincing, evidence, exhibits A, B and C to support your wild claims...the type of that would stand up in a court of law? </strong><hr></blockquote>
To those of you who require this "evidence," you're not going to get it. That's kind of the whole idea of choosing to BELIEVE. I will probably never be able to give you an Exhibit A, B, or C that God absolutely exists. Honestly, there is none.
I choose to believe for my own peace of mind, and what beliefs I have had have been backed up by my own experiences and the testimonies of others.
On the flip side of your wanting proof of God's existance, I'd love for someone to come up with evidence that unequivvicably proves that God DOES NOT exist. I doubt anyone can do that, either.
Again, it's all about what you choose to believe in.
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
<strong>Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................</strong><hr></blockquote>
most atheists don't care to preach their views, whereas die-hard religous nuts...thats all they do.
I think its sad when people just say "
god milk?
I guess its in my nature to be open and try and see things from many angles...it seems that if you fervidly believe in god, your ability to see all the perspectives becomes very narrow.
<strong>
To those of you who require this "evidence," you're not going to get it. That's kind of the whole idea of choosing to BELIEVE. I will probably never be able to give you an Exhibit A, B, or C that God absolutely exists. Honestly, there is none.
I choose to believe for my own peace of mind, and what beliefs I have had have been backed up by my own experiences and the testimonies of others.
On the flip side of your wanting proof of God's existance, I'd love for someone to come up with evidence that unequivvicably proves that God DOES NOT exist. I doubt anyone can do that, either.
Again, it's all about what you choose to believe in.
[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I remember hearing about someone who mathmatically disproved the existence of god
then mathmatically proved it
<strong>Is it just me, or do Born Again Christians and all ultra religious people in general sound like mind controlled psychos? </strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]<strong>No offense but every born again I've ever known has been either a drunk, criminal, or druggie in his/her past and turned ultra religious (so they say) to atone for their past. I would personally trust an atheist more than an ultra religious person. No bullshit, nothing to hide, and no preaching......................</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are no alcoholic atheists? No atheists who use drugs? Or committ crime? You can't really believe this so why the bullshit? What are you hiding?
I was raised Christian by my family, but it made less and less sense to me as I went thru my teens, and by the time I started in college I abandoned it...the whole big business/corporate/manipulative and controlling nature of "big religion" seemed so far removed from the teaching of Jesus Christ himself.
Also I now find it really tough to base my life and outlook on myth, legend, old wrtings and suppositions; it seems so much of a flimsy tighrope to walk upon. So I am skeptical about "deity"...I think I would gladly accept it if I had solid *proof* which was enough to pass my personal tests, but mere *belief* will never cut it for me. I kow many people who have had what they describe as *proof*. Maybe they are the lucky ones!