Nokia makes great HW (as in quality, and pricing). Their biggest problem is they don't have good SW to go with their HW.
And yes, those disgusting designs did make it to market. But those were probably a few of the many 100s of phones they created. That is kinda important when you are in pretty much every country in the world, and are catering to local markets with different demands. Which is why Nokia is still so huge all over the world (except US, where they never became big because the carriers never allowed them in).
But exactly what were all these giant mobile phone companies that had massive tech groups, and R&D budgets doing, other than counting money??? They did next to nothing to develop a useful design that married the various technologies.
Hmm. They just developed the whole mobile industry with that R&D to the point that you can now create a phone + computer + camera + iPod + Navigator + PDA from essentially a single chip + some memory. That's no small feat to accomplish.
It's much easier to come in when the palyground already exists and you can buy most of the components from the shop. Also you don't have any existing user base of your own that you risk to alianate and you can learn from existing deficiencies. Don't forget that as a phone (not talking about the other functions let alone UI), the iPhone is not that good (reception issues, power save issues, boatloads of signalling issues, 10second voice codec pauses etc.) especially compared to the established players.
It's also quite difficult to judge at what point is it worth it to alienate many of your existing user's by making a big drastic change in your user's use environment (for example OS9 ->OS X or G5 ->Intel or Nokia S60 -> Meego or Symbian^4). If you break backwards compatibility and change the UI, it becomes harder the larger your user base is (bigger user base to lose). Apple just made it mandatory for the existing players to act now (a good thing that is). It's interesting to see how they will react.
Many of the vendors have gone the reactionary route of copying the Apple UI and business model (Win 7 and Samsung Bada), some have done their own (Ovi was announced before Apple Store). 2 years is product development cycle after all is a short time. Especially if your aim is to compete, innovate and start over and not just quicly copy (as many of the asian manufacturers have done). Nokia isn't doing hot at the moment, but it does have potential. It remains to be seen if they can use that potential.
Don't forget that as a phone (not talking about the other functions let alone UI), the iPhone is not that good (reception issues, power save issues, boatloads of signalling issues, 10second voice codec pauses etc.) especially compared to the established players.
I can't confirm that at all. We had N95s and SE P910is (plus a few 8800s for the execs) in the company before moving to the iPhone in late 2007 and the iPhone is not exposing any of these behaviors anywhere in Europe or Asia. The phone functionality is at least as good as in the N95 and tons better and more reliable than the SE P910i; I do not comment on the 8800 (costing roughly $1k at that time) - it sounded like a tin can. I did not have a single dropped call in three years with the iPhone, voice quality is great. The only real problem was the abysmal speaker in the original iPhone, but that has improved quite a bit in the 3G and 3GS models, hopefully the next one will again be a bit better.
A 40% jump in profits isn't exactly the end of the world. Apple's figures are spectacular but Nokia is outperforming the industry average.
I'm also confused as to why so it's fashionable, especially in the US, to hate on Nokia. I agree that they've got a lot of problems but I don't understand the hatred and vitriol. Did they sleep with your mother? It's Iceland, not Finland, that's the naughty Nordic country at the moment.
From what I've seen of Symbian^3, the UI is behind the iPhone but catching up. It's certainly a big improvement over S60 5th edition. The most important change is the development tools though. No longer will application developers have to learn the quirks of Symbian C++ as Symbian^3 uses the thoroughly modern (and multi-platform) Qt framework. I can't wait to try it, personally.
EDIT: Looking at Nokia's smartphone sales, they increased to 21.5mil from 20.1mil Q4 2009 (+3%) and 13.7mil Q1 2009 (+57%). I know the price dropped but doing better in Q1 than Q4 is impressive.
I can tell you why I despise them. I bought a Nokia flip phone, about 4 months before the iPhone came out. Ease of use? Nope, sucked like no other phone I have ever used. To change the ringtone you had to drive down 5 levels in the software. Changing the wallpaper was 7 levels and was not under a category that you would think it would be. I thought maybe it was just me so I gave it to two of my younger, geekier, phone obsessed coworkers and had them give it a try. After a half hour they gave up.
The hardware was decent and the screen was brilliant for its time but since I had the over whelming urge to throw it on the ground and stomp it to bits I returned it and got a samsung instead. I still use the Sammy on occasion for bluetooth 3g tethering. *Shhsh* don't tell the people at the Deathstar network.
I forgot to add that the last time I looked at a non smartphone Nokia, it looks like they still haven't learned their lesson when it comes to ease of use and logical menus.
I feel badly for the company -- it was such a world-beater at one point.
Nokia is increasingly living in a bubble.
They just don't seem to get it, or if they do, have no clue as to what to do.
I think some of Nokia management does get what has happened to them. It did take some time for them to understand (read their conference call transcripts and you'll see the changing tone), but they are now like a big aircraft carrier; it's taking an even longer time to turn it around and fix it.
They understand that Apple changed the game on them at the top-end with an easy-to-use touch-screen, web-connected, native-app-running smartphone. And that this top-end is rapidly become the middle.
They understand that they need to build an ecosystem and a solid OS and easy-to-use UI to get back into the top-end. And they are working it. In the meantime, they are trying to buy time by selling lots of mid-range sort-of-1st-gen smartphones, by which I mean they are focused on texting and email, not apps and touch. Note that their smartphone ASP dropped again, and that they don't even bother to break out N-series units.
I think given their current circumstances due to their slowness to react, that they are hanging in well. They're taking advantage of their economies of scale through top-notch production and global distribution (everywhere but US) to keep pace. Thus, if they can build the OS/UI/ecosystem, Nokia is, to me, the greatest threat to Apple (along with Google). It's a big IF, for sure, but if they build it, they have pricing and scale to put pressure and block Apple in many ways. As for today, the delay in Symbian^3 triggered the selloff. So maybe they really can't build it.
It's interesting to contrast Nokia with Palm. Product-wise, Palm has built a chunk (but not all) of what is needed to compete with Apple, but they have no production or distribution advantage and are dying because of it. They don't have the cash or continuing "old product" sales to give them the time they need to finish the job.
i love the design, but i'll hold onto my 3gs until the 4g network has been rolled out.
[and hopefully i'll be getting my next iPhone with a verizon contract, too]
Oflife: i bet you think these designs are inspired...
wow, talk about horrible mess, those are the most disgusting looking pieces of hardware/software i have ever seen. No wonder Nokia is shaking in their boots, they don't have a single creative bone in their entire body.
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.
I'm also confused as to why so it's fashionable, especially in the US, to hate on Nokia. I agree that they've got a lot of problems but I don't understand the hatred and vitriol. Did they sleep with your mother? It's Iceland, not Finland, that's the naughty Nordic country at the moment.
1. When iPhone first came out, Nokia management made clueless remarks, just like Ballmer.
2. Nokia sued Apple, which is of course, a big no-no.
3. Too many Nokia fanboys who still don't get it, making stupid comments, even after Nokia management seems to have finally grasped the battle that they're in. (I'm not saying that you're one of them, but we've had a couple here at AI.)
See my previous comment for a response to the rest of your comment.
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.
Sounds like you're just aping Tomi Ahonen... Might as well be nice and just provide the link already.
A 40% jump in profits isn't exactly the end of the world. Apple's figures are spectacular but Nokia is outperforming the industry average.
I'm also confused as to why so it's fashionable, especially in the US, to hate on Nokia. I agree that they've got a lot of problems but I don't understand the hatred and vitriol. Did they sleep with your mother? It's Iceland, not Finland, that's the naughty Nordic country at the moment.
From what I've seen of Symbian^3, the UI is behind the iPhone but catching up. It's certainly a big improvement over S60 5th edition. The most important change is the development tools though. No longer will application developers have to learn the quirks of Symbian C++ as Symbian^3 uses the thoroughly modern (and multi-platform) Qt framework. I can't wait to try it, personally.
EDIT: Looking at Nokia's smartphone sales, they increased to 21.5mil from 20.1mil Q4 2009 (+3%) and 13.7mil Q1 2009 (+57%). I know the price dropped but doing better in Q1 than Q4 is impressive.
There is generally no Nokia hate here in the US. Their lower end phones are very popular here. I think some Apple fans are upset at the stunt they tried to pull when suing Apple. They will only let Apple license the patents if Apple gives them their entire patent portfolio. So they want a significant amount of money for every iPhone sold and Apple's patents. Not to mention that the patents cover things at the chipset level which Apple doesn't make. It feels like a dead end strategy though. Nobody cares about developing apps for it. Unless Nokia changes that, they need to move on.
The Qt framework was inspired by Apple's Cocoa by the way. It still has a lot of bugs and performance isn't that great. It is possible they have fixed some of the problems when running on top of Symbian though because they control the platform. I think it could replace Java as a multi-platform toolkit if it improves though. It's strategy is actually the same as Cocoa when it was called Yellow Box. Apple decided to cancel the project when they realized that multi-platform apps suck because they don't look right on more then one platform. They made an exception for iTunes and Safari, but they do look out of place on Windows. Windows users are more used to that though because non-standard toolkits are pretty common on Windows. Apple's current stance is that multi-platform should be done over the web.
Hmm. They just developed the whole mobile industry with that R&D to the point that you can now create a phone + computer + camera + iPod + Navigator + PDA from essentially a single chip + some memory. That's no small feat to accomplish.
...
Many of the vendors have gone the reactionary route of copying the Apple UI and business model (Win 7 and Samsung Bada), some have done their own (Ovi was announced before Apple Store). 2 years is product development cycle after all is a short time. Especially if your aim is to compete, innovate and start over and not just quicly copy (as many of the asian manufacturers have done). Nokia isn't doing hot at the moment, but it does have potential. It remains to be seen if they can use that potential.
Regs, Jarkko
Here's the difference. It's not about features, most of which Nokia thought of first and implemented first. It's about usability. By a mainstream user, a mom.
Here's what I mean. Go to www.apple.com/iphone/gallery/ads Watch them. Now think about the ads from other vendors or carriers about handsets. What's the difference?
Apple tells you what real-life things you or any joe schmo can do with this thing. You can imagine it. You can see it happening. You decide you need to have one soon.
Man you have to warn us when you are going to post a picture like that! I just threw up in my mouth...
Hey, you're the one who quoted the thing back. In the Ugliest Products of All Time derby, the AMC Gremlin wins by a length (sorry Nokia!). Not only was it completely utt bugly both inside and out, it drove poorly and was miserably constructed. So what's not to love?
They certainly do. Between Android's feature dominance and Apple's loyal fans, Nokia is not in a good spot right now.
They have great products. And in most of the world, they own the markets. But the markets are changing, and they need to step up efforts to rebuild their lead.
And Apple Fans are loyal due to feature dominance over both Android and Nokia.
Comments
Oflife: i bet you think these designs are inspired...
[/IMG]
OMG, are those real ... as in reached market?
They should spend last reserves of their cash on buying Palm. That could keep them afloat for few more years.
what good would it do for them to acquire palm?
They should spend last reserves of their cash on buying Palm. That could keep them afloat for few more years.
I hear Bono would certainly be EXTREMELY grateful..
what good would it do for them to acquire palm?
Nokia makes great HW (as in quality, and pricing). Their biggest problem is they don't have good SW to go with their HW.
And yes, those disgusting designs did make it to market. But those were probably a few of the many 100s of phones they created. That is kinda important when you are in pretty much every country in the world, and are catering to local markets with different demands. Which is why Nokia is still so huge all over the world (except US, where they never became big because the carriers never allowed them in).
But exactly what were all these giant mobile phone companies that had massive tech groups, and R&D budgets doing, other than counting money??? They did next to nothing to develop a useful design that married the various technologies.
Hmm. They just developed the whole mobile industry with that R&D to the point that you can now create a phone + computer + camera + iPod + Navigator + PDA from essentially a single chip + some memory. That's no small feat to accomplish.
It's much easier to come in when the palyground already exists and you can buy most of the components from the shop. Also you don't have any existing user base of your own that you risk to alianate and you can learn from existing deficiencies. Don't forget that as a phone (not talking about the other functions let alone UI), the iPhone is not that good (reception issues, power save issues, boatloads of signalling issues, 10second voice codec pauses etc.) especially compared to the established players.
It's also quite difficult to judge at what point is it worth it to alienate many of your existing user's by making a big drastic change in your user's use environment (for example OS9 ->OS X or G5 ->Intel or Nokia S60 -> Meego or Symbian^4). If you break backwards compatibility and change the UI, it becomes harder the larger your user base is (bigger user base to lose). Apple just made it mandatory for the existing players to act now (a good thing that is). It's interesting to see how they will react.
Many of the vendors have gone the reactionary route of copying the Apple UI and business model (Win 7 and Samsung Bada), some have done their own (Ovi was announced before Apple Store). 2 years is product development cycle after all is a short time. Especially if your aim is to compete, innovate and start over and not just quicly copy (as many of the asian manufacturers have done). Nokia isn't doing hot at the moment, but it does have potential. It remains to be seen if they can use that potential.
Regs, Jarkko
Don't forget that as a phone (not talking about the other functions let alone UI), the iPhone is not that good (reception issues, power save issues, boatloads of signalling issues, 10second voice codec pauses etc.) especially compared to the established players.
I can't confirm that at all. We had N95s and SE P910is (plus a few 8800s for the execs) in the company before moving to the iPhone in late 2007 and the iPhone is not exposing any of these behaviors anywhere in Europe or Asia. The phone functionality is at least as good as in the N95 and tons better and more reliable than the SE P910i; I do not comment on the 8800 (costing roughly $1k at that time) - it sounded like a tin can. I did not have a single dropped call in three years with the iPhone, voice quality is great. The only real problem was the abysmal speaker in the original iPhone, but that has improved quite a bit in the 3G and 3GS models, hopefully the next one will again be a bit better.
My brother had a blackberry, and I thought it was the ugliest industrial design since The Gremlin.
Ouch, ouch, ouch. For those who don't get the reference:
A 40% jump in profits isn't exactly the end of the world. Apple's figures are spectacular but Nokia is outperforming the industry average.
I'm also confused as to why so it's fashionable, especially in the US, to hate on Nokia. I agree that they've got a lot of problems but I don't understand the hatred and vitriol. Did they sleep with your mother? It's Iceland, not Finland, that's the naughty Nordic country at the moment.
From what I've seen of Symbian^3, the UI is behind the iPhone but catching up. It's certainly a big improvement over S60 5th edition. The most important change is the development tools though. No longer will application developers have to learn the quirks of Symbian C++ as Symbian^3 uses the thoroughly modern (and multi-platform) Qt framework. I can't wait to try it, personally.
EDIT: Looking at Nokia's smartphone sales, they increased to 21.5mil from 20.1mil Q4 2009 (+3%) and 13.7mil Q1 2009 (+57%). I know the price dropped but doing better in Q1 than Q4 is impressive.
I can tell you why I despise them. I bought a Nokia flip phone, about 4 months before the iPhone came out. Ease of use? Nope, sucked like no other phone I have ever used. To change the ringtone you had to drive down 5 levels in the software. Changing the wallpaper was 7 levels and was not under a category that you would think it would be. I thought maybe it was just me so I gave it to two of my younger, geekier, phone obsessed coworkers and had them give it a try. After a half hour they gave up.
The hardware was decent and the screen was brilliant for its time but since I had the over whelming urge to throw it on the ground and stomp it to bits I returned it and got a samsung instead. I still use the Sammy on occasion for bluetooth 3g tethering.
I forgot to add that the last time I looked at a non smartphone Nokia, it looks like they still haven't learned their lesson when it comes to ease of use and logical menus.
Ouch, ouch, ouch. For those who don't get the reference:
Man you have to warn us when you are going to post a picture like that! I just threw up in my mouth...
I feel badly for the company -- it was such a world-beater at one point.
Nokia is increasingly living in a bubble.
They just don't seem to get it, or if they do, have no clue as to what to do.
I think some of Nokia management does get what has happened to them. It did take some time for them to understand (read their conference call transcripts and you'll see the changing tone), but they are now like a big aircraft carrier; it's taking an even longer time to turn it around and fix it.
They understand that Apple changed the game on them at the top-end with an easy-to-use touch-screen, web-connected, native-app-running smartphone. And that this top-end is rapidly become the middle.
They understand that they need to build an ecosystem and a solid OS and easy-to-use UI to get back into the top-end. And they are working it. In the meantime, they are trying to buy time by selling lots of mid-range sort-of-1st-gen smartphones, by which I mean they are focused on texting and email, not apps and touch. Note that their smartphone ASP dropped again, and that they don't even bother to break out N-series units.
I think given their current circumstances due to their slowness to react, that they are hanging in well. They're taking advantage of their economies of scale through top-notch production and global distribution (everywhere but US) to keep pace. Thus, if they can build the OS/UI/ecosystem, Nokia is, to me, the greatest threat to Apple (along with Google). It's a big IF, for sure, but if they build it, they have pricing and scale to put pressure and block Apple in many ways. As for today, the delay in Symbian^3 triggered the selloff. So maybe they really can't build it.
It's interesting to contrast Nokia with Palm. Product-wise, Palm has built a chunk (but not all) of what is needed to compete with Apple, but they have no production or distribution advantage and are dying because of it. They don't have the cash or continuing "old product" sales to give them the time they need to finish the job.
i love the design, but i'll hold onto my 3gs until the 4g network has been rolled out.
[and hopefully i'll be getting my next iPhone with a verizon contract, too]
Oflife: i bet you think these designs are inspired...
wow, talk about horrible mess, those are the most disgusting looking pieces of hardware/software i have ever seen. No wonder Nokia is shaking in their boots, they don't have a single creative bone in their entire body.
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.
I'm also confused as to why so it's fashionable, especially in the US, to hate on Nokia. I agree that they've got a lot of problems but I don't understand the hatred and vitriol. Did they sleep with your mother? It's Iceland, not Finland, that's the naughty Nordic country at the moment.
1. When iPhone first came out, Nokia management made clueless remarks, just like Ballmer.
2. Nokia sued Apple, which is of course, a big no-no.
3. Too many Nokia fanboys who still don't get it, making stupid comments, even after Nokia management seems to have finally grasped the battle that they're in. (I'm not saying that you're one of them, but we've had a couple here at AI.)
See my previous comment for a response to the rest of your comment.
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.
Sounds like you're just aping Tomi Ahonen... Might as well be nice and just provide the link already.
I hear Bono would certainly be EXTREMELY grateful..
You think he could get his friends (U2) to do a few free concerts over there in exchange for saving his butt ...
A 40% jump in profits isn't exactly the end of the world. Apple's figures are spectacular but Nokia is outperforming the industry average.
I'm also confused as to why so it's fashionable, especially in the US, to hate on Nokia. I agree that they've got a lot of problems but I don't understand the hatred and vitriol. Did they sleep with your mother? It's Iceland, not Finland, that's the naughty Nordic country at the moment.
From what I've seen of Symbian^3, the UI is behind the iPhone but catching up. It's certainly a big improvement over S60 5th edition. The most important change is the development tools though. No longer will application developers have to learn the quirks of Symbian C++ as Symbian^3 uses the thoroughly modern (and multi-platform) Qt framework. I can't wait to try it, personally.
EDIT: Looking at Nokia's smartphone sales, they increased to 21.5mil from 20.1mil Q4 2009 (+3%) and 13.7mil Q1 2009 (+57%). I know the price dropped but doing better in Q1 than Q4 is impressive.
There is generally no Nokia hate here in the US. Their lower end phones are very popular here. I think some Apple fans are upset at the stunt they tried to pull when suing Apple. They will only let Apple license the patents if Apple gives them their entire patent portfolio. So they want a significant amount of money for every iPhone sold and Apple's patents. Not to mention that the patents cover things at the chipset level which Apple doesn't make. It feels like a dead end strategy though. Nobody cares about developing apps for it. Unless Nokia changes that, they need to move on.
The Qt framework was inspired by Apple's Cocoa by the way. It still has a lot of bugs and performance isn't that great. It is possible they have fixed some of the problems when running on top of Symbian though because they control the platform. I think it could replace Java as a multi-platform toolkit if it improves though. It's strategy is actually the same as Cocoa when it was called Yellow Box. Apple decided to cancel the project when they realized that multi-platform apps suck because they don't look right on more then one platform. They made an exception for iTunes and Safari, but they do look out of place on Windows. Windows users are more used to that though because non-standard toolkits are pretty common on Windows. Apple's current stance is that multi-platform should be done over the web.
They certainly do. Between Android's feature dominance and Apple's loyal fans, Nokia is not in a good spot right now.
Hmm. They just developed the whole mobile industry with that R&D to the point that you can now create a phone + computer + camera + iPod + Navigator + PDA from essentially a single chip + some memory. That's no small feat to accomplish.
...
Many of the vendors have gone the reactionary route of copying the Apple UI and business model (Win 7 and Samsung Bada), some have done their own (Ovi was announced before Apple Store). 2 years is product development cycle after all is a short time. Especially if your aim is to compete, innovate and start over and not just quicly copy (as many of the asian manufacturers have done). Nokia isn't doing hot at the moment, but it does have potential. It remains to be seen if they can use that potential.
Regs, Jarkko
Here's the difference. It's not about features, most of which Nokia thought of first and implemented first. It's about usability. By a mainstream user, a mom.
Here's what I mean. Go to www.apple.com/iphone/gallery/ads Watch them. Now think about the ads from other vendors or carriers about handsets. What's the difference?
Apple tells you what real-life things you or any joe schmo can do with this thing. You can imagine it. You can see it happening. You decide you need to have one soon.
Man you have to warn us when you are going to post a picture like that! I just threw up in my mouth...
Hey, you're the one who quoted the thing back. In the Ugliest Products of All Time derby, the AMC Gremlin wins by a length (sorry Nokia!). Not only was it completely utt bugly both inside and out, it drove poorly and was miserably constructed. So what's not to love?
They certainly do. Between Android's feature dominance and Apple's loyal fans, Nokia is not in a good spot right now.
They have great products. And in most of the world, they own the markets. But the markets are changing, and they need to step up efforts to rebuild their lead.
And Apple Fans are loyal due to feature dominance over both Android and Nokia.