The first comment sums it up "This video is based on the first version of the firmware". I'm sure there are issues with the first gen firmware on that model, just like there was on the first gen firmware of the iPhone.
The difference is, there was nothing else out there to compete/compare against the 1st gen iPhone. It was competing against itself, and against people's expectation of a radically new concept.
The difference is, there was nothing else out there to compete/compare against the 1st gen iPhone. It was competing against itself, and against people's expectation of a radically new concept.
Your analogy is not even in the same league.
What analogy? I questioned the presentation of a seven year old phone as an example of current design, and you still haven't come up with something.
What is that meant to mean? Nothing to add so you thought you would start with the insults early?
Interesting. Why do you take that as an insult? We know your presence simply enlivens any discussion of Nokia.
By the way, I've already said my piece earlier about Nokia. Since it seems like you haven't read it, I said Nokia is one of the two biggest threats to Apple IF Nokia can execute, as their management already seems to recognize the breadth and depth of what they need to do..
But exactly what were all these giant mobile phone companies that had massive tech groups, and R&D budgets doing, other than counting money??? They did next to nothing to develop a useful design that married the various technologies.
Good, user oriented design is hard. The first thing you have to do is ignore the criticisms of the technirati and keep your focus.
So far Apple seems to be the only company able to do that consistently. And for all the negativity and crap they get from "experts", they are wildly successful. Other companies can see this, but they just can't help themselves. They really can't break from the past.
The best example of this is Android. Just having multiple hardware makers was so successful for Windows Mobile. Just like open source was a guarantee of success for Linux.
Quote:
I hope Android improves and the handsets improve, but given the state of the manufacturers Google better just make their own phones from top to bottom if they want to match the quality of an iPhone.
They can't do it. It's simply not in their DNA. The proof is in the products that are shipping. The application fragmentation mess for Android is going to be a complete nightmare. People complain that Apple charges for OS upgrades for the iPod Touch - but at least they offer them! Many of the first generation Android phones have yet to offer any OS updates.
Apple has little to worry about from anyone in the market today, and they are well on track for keeping their lead. OS, hardware, app store, iTunes - they are firing on all cylinders. No one else comes close to their performance.
People complain that Apple charges for OS upgrades for the iPod Touch - but at least they offer them! Many of the first generation Android phones have yet to offer any OS updates.
After the recent announcements from Apple is this still a good thing to bring up?
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
[..]
So who won? what's more important long term?
Profit wins, and Apple is ruling the roost right now. We'll see how it plays out going forward. I think Nokia has their work cut out for them, but that's just my opinion.
Two photos provided were from 2003, seven years ago, can you please provide a list of these unusable designs from a more modern era?
The whole user experience of the N95 would certainly count. It was horrific. I had to help a friend navigate the awful menus and I hadn't used it before. It was about first principles and luck to find out how to do pretty basic things. He'd had it for months and was tech savvy but was infuriated with it.
Here's the difference. It's not about features, most of which Nokia thought of first and implemented first. It's about usability. By a mainstream user, a mom.
I do know that and have acknowledged that. What I was trying to do was to give an answer to where much of the R&D money had gone in the yesteryears. Apple for sure has done a huge number of ground braking work on the usability and end user experience side. The others were stuck in the tech-cycle for too long and fortunately Apple broke that cycle.
But what I was also trying to point out was, that unless someone had brought the features and optimised the designs (Nokia, Qualcomm etc.), Apple couldn't have made the iPhone either. Also no user base on the phone side allowed them to be much more revolutionary in the UI department than anyone else who cares about an existing user base. That does not mean that Apple didn't do a great job. Just trying to give some plausible reasons for why Samsung, Nokia, Motorola etc. didn't change the OS and UIs so much. Similar story with RIM. The one's who's marketshare is down (low user base to alienate) did a lot of different trials with OSs and UIs (look at Motorola and Samsung a few years back for example).
The way I see it is that a UI revolution would have happened eventually (2, 5 or 10 years later who knows) since the tech cycle was nearing it's end CPU and feature wise (memory, GPS, RFID, BT, Cameras etc). The vendors already were toying with touchscreens (Nokia 770-> for example). Apple just forced the next cycle with touchscreens to begin earlier (good thing) with their UI and usability which could be created from the ground up without any carryon baggage. And they hit a home run with it.
I did say Ovi (the services concept), not Ovi store. Ovi was announced Aug 29, 2007. The main point was about cloud services (like Apple's App Store in March 2008 and .Mac/Mobile Me before that). Yes Ovi store was released later but was on the roadmaps before Apple's Store announcement. So at least the idea was not a copy. The end result may well be.
I do know that and have acknowledged that. What I was trying to do was to give an answer to where much of the R&D money had gone in the yesteryears. Apple for sure has done a huge number of ground braking work on the usability and end user experience side. The others were stuck in the tech-cycle for too long and fortunately Apple broke that cycle.
...
Thanks for your measured analysis. All of it.
(Your quoting mechanism needs a little work, however )
The application fragmentation mess for Android is going to be a complete nightmare. People complain that Apple charges for OS upgrades for the iPod Touch - but at least they offer them! Many of the first generation Android phones have yet to offer any OS updates.
Which first generation Android phones haven't had at least one OS update?
The first Android phone was the HTC Dream. It was released with Android 1.0 and now runs 1.6. The second Android phone was the HTC Magic and also got an upgrade to 1.6. In fact, there's not a single Android phone on the market still running Android 1.0 or 1.1.
(Your quoting mechanism needs a little work, however )
Don't I Know it. The darn skype tags are inserted after you press "Submit Reply". Now Skype extensions are disabled so hopefully that was the last time that happens.
Take a look at what has happened since the middle of 2007.
That's numbers talking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lav1daloca
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term?
I'd ease back from those market-share numbers a tad. Because they are a little bit misleading.
Nokia sell a huge number of handsets. Most of them are pretty basic. But nowadays even the low-end handsets are getting web and email functionality.
That functionality means almost everything they make is now classed as Smartphones.
The result of this transition means the number of smartphones is growing hugely - and the market-share of smartphone sold by Nokia is increasing.
But what Apple is selling isn't the same type of product at all. The iPhone a device that sells unsubsidised for $600 and nets about $300 pure profit on every handset sold. That's unusual. One Apple iPhone makes more profit than about 20 netbook sales for Dell.
Nokia also makes some high-end handsets, which in terms of market positioning are comparable to the iPhone. These top-end handsets get the N-Series label. This is where the big profits are in the handset market. Low-end phones have a lower retail value and much much slimmer profits.
So if you dig into Nokia's sales numbers, these highly profitable N-Series devices are not selling. Nokia are selling less N-series devices every quarter, and about a half the number back in the pre-iPhone heyday.
This is why the market is taking a dim view of Nokia. After three years of the iPhone, Nokia's response has been to talk in a dismissive way about this new upstart - but their competing products have not arrived.
Instead we are getting this bizarrely confusing message about Symbian 3, Maemo, Meego. Nokia's answer to the iPhone is always something in the future. The market is getting tired of waiting. And in a market where people upgrade every 24 months. 3 years of waiting can do a lot of damage.
Like Apple, Nokia control every aspect of hardware, software in an integrated way. Unlike Apple, Nokia are not using this control to make outstanding products.
The whole user experience of the N95 would certainly count. It was horrific. I had to help a friend navigate the awful menus and I hadn't used it before. It was about first principles and luck to find out how to do pretty basic things. He'd had it for months and was tech savvy but was infuriated with it.
Again, although the N95 was an extremely popular phone, it is still a very old phone, it was released over three years ago.
I've used N97's and that is how they work, very frustrating and annoying most of the time I give up on the fingers and look for something pointy, like a stick.
I was trying out a SonyEricsson X10 today, while trying to scroll to select the language in the set up wizard it went straight into Indonesian, it took ages to get it back again, the book was useless it suggested the inbuilt help files which were also in Indonesian.
I don't want to be annoyed by phones, I just want to use them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
The difference is, there was nothing else out there to compete/compare against the 1st gen iPhone. It was competing against itself, and against people's expectation of a radically new concept.
Comments
The first comment sums it up "This video is based on the first version of the firmware". I'm sure there are issues with the first gen firmware on that model, just like there was on the first gen firmware of the iPhone.
The difference is, there was nothing else out there to compete/compare against the 1st gen iPhone. It was competing against itself, and against people's expectation of a radically new concept.
Your analogy is not even in the same league.
The difference is, there was nothing else out there to compete/compare against the 1st gen iPhone. It was competing against itself, and against people's expectation of a radically new concept.
Your analogy is not even in the same league.
What analogy? I questioned the presentation of a seven year old phone as an example of current design, and you still haven't come up with something.
It was in reply to my post, and I know what he meant. So, no need for you to worry about it.
The fact that he mentioned my name means it has everything to do with me, so again I ask, what is that meant to mean?
Gee how could so many nerds be wrong?
------
(and snakes on a plane was supposed to be a blockbuster!)
What is that meant to mean? Nothing to add so you thought you would start with the insults early?
Interesting. Why do you take that as an insult? We know your presence simply enlivens any discussion of Nokia.
By the way, I've already said my piece earlier about Nokia. Since it seems like you haven't read it, I said Nokia is one of the two biggest threats to Apple IF Nokia can execute, as their management already seems to recognize the breadth and depth of what they need to do..
But exactly what were all these giant mobile phone companies that had massive tech groups, and R&D budgets doing, other than counting money??? They did next to nothing to develop a useful design that married the various technologies.
Good, user oriented design is hard. The first thing you have to do is ignore the criticisms of the technirati and keep your focus.
So far Apple seems to be the only company able to do that consistently. And for all the negativity and crap they get from "experts", they are wildly successful. Other companies can see this, but they just can't help themselves. They really can't break from the past.
The best example of this is Android. Just having multiple hardware makers was so successful for Windows Mobile. Just like open source was a guarantee of success for Linux.
I hope Android improves and the handsets improve, but given the state of the manufacturers Google better just make their own phones from top to bottom if they want to match the quality of an iPhone.
They can't do it. It's simply not in their DNA. The proof is in the products that are shipping. The application fragmentation mess for Android is going to be a complete nightmare. People complain that Apple charges for OS upgrades for the iPod Touch - but at least they offer them! Many of the first generation Android phones have yet to offer any OS updates.
Apple has little to worry about from anyone in the market today, and they are well on track for keeping their lead. OS, hardware, app store, iTunes - they are firing on all cylinders. No one else comes close to their performance.
People complain that Apple charges for OS upgrades for the iPod Touch - but at least they offer them! Many of the first generation Android phones have yet to offer any OS updates.
After the recent announcements from Apple is this still a good thing to bring up?
And Apple Fans are loyal due to feature dominance over both Android and Nokia.
It's not feature dominance, but experience dominance. Not so subtle, and a very important distinction.
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
[..]
So who won? what's more important long term?
Profit wins, and Apple is ruling the roost right now. We'll see how it plays out going forward. I think Nokia has their work cut out for them, but that's just my opinion.
Cube!? Wow, that hurts. I happen to think it is one of the great industrial designs of all time. I still adore mine. (Perhaps I should duck).
I love mine too but it was perceived as strange lookIng at launch. We say beautiful, others said goofy. Long live the cube!
Two photos provided were from 2003, seven years ago, can you please provide a list of these unusable designs from a more modern era?
The whole user experience of the N95 would certainly count. It was horrific. I had to help a friend navigate the awful menus and I hadn't used it before. It was about first principles and luck to find out how to do pretty basic things. He'd had it for months and was tech savvy but was infuriated with it.
Here's the difference. It's not about features, most of which Nokia thought of first and implemented first. It's about usability. By a mainstream user, a mom.
I do know that and have acknowledged that. What I was trying to do was to give an answer to where much of the R&D money had gone in the yesteryears. Apple for sure has done a huge number of ground braking work on the usability and end user experience side. The others were stuck in the tech-cycle for too long and fortunately Apple broke that cycle.
But what I was also trying to point out was, that unless someone had brought the features and optimised the designs (Nokia, Qualcomm etc.), Apple couldn't have made the iPhone either. Also no user base on the phone side allowed them to be much more revolutionary in the UI department than anyone else who cares about an existing user base. That does not mean that Apple didn't do a great job. Just trying to give some plausible reasons for why Samsung, Nokia, Motorola etc. didn't change the OS and UIs so much. Similar story with RIM. The one's who's marketshare is down (low user base to alienate) did a lot of different trials with OSs and UIs (look at Motorola and Samsung a few years back for example).
The way I see it is that a UI revolution would have happened eventually (2, 5 or 10 years later who knows) since the tech cycle was nearing it's end CPU and feature wise (memory, GPS, RFID, BT, Cameras etc). The vendors already were toying with touchscreens (Nokia 770-> for example). Apple just forced the next cycle with touchscreens to begin earlier (good thing) with their UI and usability which could be created from the ground up without any carryon baggage. And they hit a home run with it.
Regs, Jarkko
Ovi store was announced Feb 2009 - way after the App store was released and had 50,000 apps. http://www.i4u.com/article23241.html
I did say Ovi (the services concept), not Ovi store. Ovi was announced Aug 29, 2007. The main point was about cloud services (like Apple's App Store in March 2008 and .Mac/Mobile Me before that). Yes Ovi store was released later but was on the roadmaps before Apple's Store announcement. So at least the idea was not a copy. The end result may well be.
Regs, Jarkko
I do know that and have acknowledged that. What I was trying to do was to give an answer to where much of the R&D money had gone in the yesteryears. Apple for sure has done a huge number of ground braking work on the usability and end user experience side. The others were stuck in the tech-cycle for too long and fortunately Apple broke that cycle.
...
Thanks for your measured analysis. All of it.
(Your quoting mechanism needs a little work, however
The application fragmentation mess for Android is going to be a complete nightmare. People complain that Apple charges for OS upgrades for the iPod Touch - but at least they offer them! Many of the first generation Android phones have yet to offer any OS updates.
Which first generation Android phones haven't had at least one OS update?
The first Android phone was the HTC Dream. It was released with Android 1.0 and now runs 1.6. The second Android phone was the HTC Magic and also got an upgrade to 1.6. In fact, there's not a single Android phone on the market still running Android 1.0 or 1.1.
Thanks for your measured analysis. All of it.
(Your quoting mechanism needs a little work, however
Don't I Know it. The darn skype tags are inserted after you press "Submit Reply". Now Skype extensions are disabled so hopefully that was the last time that happens.
Regs, Jarkko
Take a look at what has happened since the middle of 2007.
That's numbers talking.
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term? I don't know but I know one thing which is a no brainer, Apple will not grow out of that 17-18% with only one phone and at that price. Nokia may not be there yet software wise but they're catching up so if I were Apple I'd be scared right now and schedule my engineers into double shifts to bring out a couple more phones, one with a sliding qwerty keyboard and a mini version, that could easily double their sales in no time.
Ok guys let's take a chill pill and take a look.. and i'm not defending Nokia but let numbers talk..
Apple remained flat in market share at 17% and flat in sales (apple is flat at 17% for 3 quarters straight)
RIM increased market share to 21% and grew sales
NOKIA increased market share to 41% and grew sales (Nokia sold more smartphones than RIM, Apple and HTC combined)
So who won? what's more important long term?
I'd ease back from those market-share numbers a tad. Because they are a little bit misleading.
Nokia sell a huge number of handsets. Most of them are pretty basic. But nowadays even the low-end handsets are getting web and email functionality.
That functionality means almost everything they make is now classed as Smartphones.
The result of this transition means the number of smartphones is growing hugely - and the market-share of smartphone sold by Nokia is increasing.
But what Apple is selling isn't the same type of product at all. The iPhone a device that sells unsubsidised for $600 and nets about $300 pure profit on every handset sold. That's unusual. One Apple iPhone makes more profit than about 20 netbook sales for Dell.
Nokia also makes some high-end handsets, which in terms of market positioning are comparable to the iPhone. These top-end handsets get the N-Series label. This is where the big profits are in the handset market. Low-end phones have a lower retail value and much much slimmer profits.
So if you dig into Nokia's sales numbers, these highly profitable N-Series devices are not selling. Nokia are selling less N-series devices every quarter, and about a half the number back in the pre-iPhone heyday.
This is why the market is taking a dim view of Nokia. After three years of the iPhone, Nokia's response has been to talk in a dismissive way about this new upstart - but their competing products have not arrived.
Instead we are getting this bizarrely confusing message about Symbian 3, Maemo, Meego. Nokia's answer to the iPhone is always something in the future. The market is getting tired of waiting. And in a market where people upgrade every 24 months. 3 years of waiting can do a lot of damage.
Like Apple, Nokia control every aspect of hardware, software in an integrated way. Unlike Apple, Nokia are not using this control to make outstanding products.
C.
The whole user experience of the N95 would certainly count. It was horrific. I had to help a friend navigate the awful menus and I hadn't used it before. It was about first principles and luck to find out how to do pretty basic things. He'd had it for months and was tech savvy but was infuriated with it.
Again, although the N95 was an extremely popular phone, it is still a very old phone, it was released over three years ago.
I was trying out a SonyEricsson X10 today, while trying to scroll to select the language in the set up wizard it went straight into Indonesian, it took ages to get it back again, the book was useless it suggested the inbuilt help files which were also in Indonesian.
I don't want to be annoyed by phones, I just want to use them.
The difference is, there was nothing else out there to compete/compare against the 1st gen iPhone. It was competing against itself, and against people's expectation of a radically new concept.
Your analogy is not even in the same league.