That's because you refuse to even listen to anyone who says anything against Adobe. I'll spell it out for you AGAIN:
1. Adobe says that Flash is needed for the 'Full Internet'
2. Only Adobe can write Flash plugins or other Flash software.
3. There is no Flash for mobile devices, and even if 10.1 comes out and meets expectations, it will only serve a tiny fraction of mobile devices - so the vast majority of mobile devices won't have flash.
4. Because of #2, Adobe is the only one who can address #3.
Therefore, Adobe is keeping people from accessing the full internet - by their own definitions.
You left out:
4. Pseudo developers who really don't know how to code, but have learned how to do Flash animations while refusing to learn html 5, Objective C, etc. This seems to be the loudest group in the whole issue, particularly with regard to the App Store. These 'developers' are too lazy to learn to code properly and want to create a Flash program and sell it on all platforms with no work on their part.
Frankly, I don't think Apple cares if people stop using Flash because Jobs said so, or because it's an inherently bad technology, or because Jobs said it's an inherently bad technology. Apple simply wants people to migrate to open standards - regardless of their reason for doing so.
I have said things 'against adobe' myself. But you can't read, can you.
I'm for fair balanced discussion based on facts, not a bunch shrieking flash haters who can't get their story straight. If you don't like what is said, then you just call people adobe shills.
Intelligent.
I'm sorry I listen to people who have relevant facts on the issue. Not someone who just keeps repeating the same Bs over and over like any cares.
Yep, in a nutshell. That's pretty much it. You got it right
it is if you have head shoved up your backside for the last few months with the coverage on how adobe is close to releasing their first player for mobile I guess.
it is if you have head shoved up your backside for the last few months with the coverage on how adobe is close to releasing their first player for mobile I guess.
They've been "close" for years. Until it's released, and shown to work flawlessly, without sucking the life out of the battery, it's vaporware.
Android 2.1+ devices will be flash capable. Updates are slowly coming out, but they're coming out for those older android devices to bring them up on the new android releases. It's not a great system, but it's better than no flash ever which is the system apple's playing by.
until we have a public beta and people can see for themselves how it runs, we really got nuffin'.
One macro approach would be to isolate and immobilize (with a gray box) any server requests to a different server than the one where the current page resides. Most ad content is delivered from 3rd party servers. That's one reason that a page with lots of ads loads slowly:
What ever you do to try to block ads, there will be a workaround developed by the people who have a different agenda. Example: Gordon.js can run Flash ads even on an iPhone and is not detected by Click to Flash, not that many are using that method presently.
Once advertising income is being lost due to blocking, they will just come up with another even more insidious method of delivering them. Kind of makes you wonder how prevalent Flash blocking really is, since the advertisers don't seem to be showing any signs of moving away from Flash to HTML5.
it is if you have head shoved up your backside for the last few months with the coverage on how adobe is close to releasing their first player for mobile I guess.
adobe pushed back the release of flash for mobile from the beginning of 2009 to later in 2009, to early 2010 to later in 2010. they have claimed that they're getting there for quite some time.
If the shoe fits, you should wear it, Adobe shill.
++
The whole reason Adobe is telling all these lies, and dodging all these questions, is because the only reason they bought Macromedia was for Flash. How much did they pay? 3.4 Billion.
So on one side, you have Apple trying to protect the user experience, and on the other, you have Adobe trying to protect their investment, and their cash cow.
It will be interesting moving into 2011 when iPhone OS version 5 will be coming out, the 2nd generation iPad showing its full stride, and Adobe/Flash will be nowhere to be seen on the most popular mobile devices aka iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad.
The whole reason Adobe is telling all these lies, and dodging all these questions, is because the only reason they bought Macromedia was for Flash.
And Dreamweaver which is much more widely used than Flash. But you are right about Flash as well. I think the warning shot was Macromedia releasing FlashPaper which converted PDF to Flash.
Okay, I love the banter back and forth. People see a word and get stuck on it. Then the whole argument derails on both sides because people take it personally for some strange reason.
Anywhooo....
Adobe seems to have the position that they want a product that is easy to write for multiple platforms and not be "stuck" or "limited" based on your "choice" of what you bought.
All the arguments here seem to indicate that Flash does not in fact meet or reach this goal. Does it run on multiple platforms - yes. Does it run on all platforms - no. Does HTML5 run on multiple platforms - yes. Does it run on all platforms - seems to (I could be wrong).
People claim Flash works on platform X. So what. Many are proving that it doesn't, or has major issues. The point is that Adobe seems to be claiming that their clearly proprietary Flash is the "java" of the web. Write once and it just works on whatever you have.
The truth seems to be that it does not in fact do this and people in droves are trying, or moving to alternatives.
Am I totally off in this?
There are many nuances of this whole debate and I know you trolls like to try and focus on just one or two. I chose to focus on the overall in my statement here. Adobe claims to be multi-platform and device independent, but I am not seeing that.
As for Apple being proprietary, yes they are and no they are not. Apple has created a lot of closed environments for sure. And they maintain those as they see fit. 100% support from me on their choice to do this. I can choose not to buy it if I don't want to.
They have also turned over a multitude of technologies to Open Standards boards. In a few cases they have even released it back to Open Source (a totally different term for those that can not differentiate between the two). More than we know. Some of it has been adopted and some of it has been shunned. Regardless, they still released it from their "proprietary" control. Prove that statement wrong.
To me that clearly makes an attack on them being labelled "closed" a little childish. Be specific and I can agree with you. Otherwise you are just proving how obtuse you are.
The fanboi has no motive to fabricate his own version of truth after the entire webz laughed at him? Seriously?
that's not a valid argument at all. There's nothing that indicates this guy is a "fanboy" or that the prototype DIDN'T have button placement as he described.
What we CAN confirm is that Android gives dialogs when apps crash, and there wasn't one in the video. Why are you ignoring that fact?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
T
So by your definition, mobile users do not have the Full Internet - and it's Adobe's fault for not releasing a version that works on mobile devices.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Ugh. I know you think you've just made some awesome point here, but you didn't.
It's not by "my definition" that users don't have the full internet, it's just a reality that everyone lives with. If you're on an ipad and you're navigating the web, you simply won't see everything (even though Jobs said it's "the best browsing experience of any device" and that includes laptops.)
What I see now is the fruits of Adobe's labor. It's coming together, and no matter how many times people around here want to post the SAME SINGLE video as proof it "crashes" (when in fact, it did not) it seems to be running very well, which flies right in the face of what Steve Jobs told everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB
We get it... you love Flash and no doubt make a pretty penny 'developing' in it.
My point is that the only people who passionately 'need' Flash are those who
1) want their porn
2) want to bombard us with annoying jumping ads, and
3) want to play primitive games like Farmville.
And the constant meme from the pro-Flash crowd is that Apple forces you to use a 'crippled internet' (again the hubris) because it doesn't agree with the definition of "The Internet" as the 3 features above.
Do you see what you're doing right now? You're searching for my hidden motives for wanting flash on the iphone OS. You're ignoring the most obvious motive, which is simply to be able to view websites with flash on something like the ipad. Gosh I'm evil! My sinister motives!
As far as porn goes, who cares what someone does in their free time? You really want to use PORN as a reason not to have flash on an ipad? What's the matter with you?
And with games, a lot of them are quite fun time wasters. What's wrong with that?
I see a lot of arguing for the sake of arguing here. That doesn't make a very good discussion does it?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Actually they did give it a chance. Back when the iPhone first came out Jobs said that they tried to work with Adobe on getting Flash to work and it didn't work. Adobe has taken too long and Apple has moved on to bigger and better.
Well to Adobe's credit, they have admitted an 800mhz cpu is needed, so if they knew then what they know now, they might have told Jobs "some day" and their relationship would have been better for it.
Got a link to anything talking about this attempt at a collaboration?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvidal
The whole web isn't going to change to HTML5 because of Steve Jobs, it'll change because of Flash. Flash has been a bad choice since the start of it, just because the ease of use. But Flash is bad to the client, it works horrible with the machine resources and Adobe haven't done anything to optimize it, maybe because it is impossible to make it better just because of its core malfunction. I guess Flash will never work well in mobile devices. It worked horrible in Desktops from 800MHZ under, complete machines with video cards, more RAM and capabilities than those in the Smartphones of today. The Adobe Flash intentions are just an utopia, they can't make it work, and even if they release a full mobile version it will be buggy, crashy and a big drainer, a big bad experience for the end user. And above all that you have that Flash content isn't possible to be indexed, and the efforts to do it are very disappointing, on the other hand HTML5 content is almost full indexable, and that is a really big plus. If I was Adobe I better re-create Flash as the best HTML5 animation compiler, to create banners and export is as HTML5 with JavaScript, that's the job they must have to do RIGHT NOW. Any time they expend trying to justify Flash on the Web is a waste. What could happen is that Apple creates a HTML5 Banner Creator Suite or something like that. Then, Adobe will REALLY, REALLY CRY OUT. Or maybe Apple decides to buy Adobe to straighten things up, who knows, but I don't think so, Adobe represents too many distractions for Apple. Anyway, forget about Flash, the time to begin a switch has come to a start.
Assumptions. You assume it will be bad. I say lets wait and see how it runs before we dismiss it.
The fact remains, however, Jobs is speaking about something he can't possibly know about. If no mobile flash exists, how can Jobs say it will be a battery drain? If Flash works great in Windows, but not in OSX, how can Jobs automatically dismiss it as a resource hog when it's proven it can be far from it?
Think of it this way: Imagine if Jobs left Flash out of OSX because he said it will always be a resource hogging battery drain, but every Windows machine runs it just fine. What would YOU think? That was just coincidence? That Adobe really doesn't know what they're doing but they LUCKED OUT when it came to Windows?
I can't wait to see how it runs in Android so we can finally put this debate to rest. I've never once said it will be great, or horrible, only that it shouldn't be discarded with hopes that everyone on the web will migrate to HTML5. How can anyone not see the logic in that? If Steve Jobs said "Maybe some day" this entire discussion wouldn't be taking place lol
4. Pseudo developers who really don't know how to code, but have learned how to do Flash animations while refusing to learn html 5, Objective C, etc. This seems to be the loudest group in the whole issue, particularly with regard to the App Store. These 'developers' are too lazy to learn to code properly and want to create a Flash program and sell it on all platforms with no work on their part.
I'm sorry, but are you a software developer? How many programming languages are you comfortable in? How many different platforms could you write software for if that was your task at hand?
I look forward to your response and learning about you.
That's interesting. So they default to flash on desktop, and html5 for iphone OS. Why didn't they just get rid of Flash? I guess they figured they invested all that time and money, may as well make some use of it.
How does the site handle in OSX? Does it default to html5?
Grow up Adobe, next you will be signing you ads with happy faces and tear drop emotives. Apple has publicly challenged your company to put your coders to work and produce a product that runs on mobile devices. What have your done these past 3 years is ignored the future of technology and kept Flash performance on Windows PCs your priority. Apple has publicly called you out on this and you get all victim like telling the world how you really love Apple but you don't like be bullied. How lame!!!
Nicely said. Talk is cheap so naturally this is what Adobe is doing. Meanwhile there is work to be done that won't get done.
Comments
That's because you refuse to even listen to anyone who says anything against Adobe. I'll spell it out for you AGAIN:
1. Adobe says that Flash is needed for the 'Full Internet'
2. Only Adobe can write Flash plugins or other Flash software.
3. There is no Flash for mobile devices, and even if 10.1 comes out and meets expectations, it will only serve a tiny fraction of mobile devices - so the vast majority of mobile devices won't have flash.
4. Because of #2, Adobe is the only one who can address #3.
Therefore, Adobe is keeping people from accessing the full internet - by their own definitions.
You left out:
4. Pseudo developers who really don't know how to code, but have learned how to do Flash animations while refusing to learn html 5, Objective C, etc. This seems to be the loudest group in the whole issue, particularly with regard to the App Store. These 'developers' are too lazy to learn to code properly and want to create a Flash program and sell it on all platforms with no work on their part.
Frankly, I don't think Apple cares if people stop using Flash because Jobs said so, or because it's an inherently bad technology, or because Jobs said it's an inherently bad technology. Apple simply wants people to migrate to open standards - regardless of their reason for doing so.
I have said things 'against adobe' myself. But you can't read, can you.
I'm for fair balanced discussion based on facts, not a bunch shrieking flash haters who can't get their story straight. If you don't like what is said, then you just call people adobe shills.
Intelligent.
I'm sorry I listen to people who have relevant facts on the issue. Not someone who just keeps repeating the same Bs over and over like any cares.
yeah... My local store has them all bookmarked, so they can easily demonstrate the....
.
I, for one, am all about demonstrating.
Yep, in a nutshell. That's pretty much it. You got it right
it is if you have head shoved up your backside for the last few months with the coverage on how adobe is close to releasing their first player for mobile I guess.
it is if you have head shoved up your backside for the last few months with the coverage on how adobe is close to releasing their first player for mobile I guess.
They've been "close" for years. Until it's released, and shown to work flawlessly, without sucking the life out of the battery, it's vaporware.
They've been "close" for years. Until it's released, and shown to work flawlessly, without sucking the life out of the battery, it's vaporware.
no they haven't. That's a lie.
They've been lazy as hell and never started developing a good mobile player until much later. See you can't have it both ways.
Android 2.1+ devices will be flash capable. Updates are slowly coming out, but they're coming out for those older android devices to bring them up on the new android releases. It's not a great system, but it's better than no flash ever which is the system apple's playing by.
until we have a public beta and people can see for themselves how it runs, we really got nuffin'.
One macro approach would be to isolate and immobilize (with a gray box) any server requests to a different server than the one where the current page resides. Most ad content is delivered from 3rd party servers. That's one reason that a page with lots of ads loads slowly:
What ever you do to try to block ads, there will be a workaround developed by the people who have a different agenda. Example: Gordon.js can run Flash ads even on an iPhone and is not detected by Click to Flash, not that many are using that method presently.
Once advertising income is being lost due to blocking, they will just come up with another even more insidious method of delivering them. Kind of makes you wonder how prevalent Flash blocking really is, since the advertisers don't seem to be showing any signs of moving away from Flash to HTML5.
??? Meanwhile Steve Jobs' Disney website it chock full of FLASH.
just because you own stock in a company does not make you the RULER of it SHEESSSSSHHH!@!!
DUMAzz
They've been "close" for years. Until it's released, and shown to work flawlessly, without sucking the life out of the battery, it's vaporware.
By the time it's actually released, Apple will have already released Gianduia - burying flash for good.
it is if you have head shoved up your backside for the last few months with the coverage on how adobe is close to releasing their first player for mobile I guess.
adobe pushed back the release of flash for mobile from the beginning of 2009 to later in 2009, to early 2010 to later in 2010. they have claimed that they're getting there for quite some time.
If the shoe fits, you should wear it, Adobe shill.
++
The whole reason Adobe is telling all these lies, and dodging all these questions, is because the only reason they bought Macromedia was for Flash. How much did they pay? 3.4 Billion.
So on one side, you have Apple trying to protect the user experience, and on the other, you have Adobe trying to protect their investment, and their cash cow.
Simple as that.
no they haven't. That's a lie.
They've been lazy as hell and never started developing a good mobile player until much later. See you can't have it both ways.
Well, they say Apple's been keeping them off the iPhone since 2007. You can't have it both ways.
++
The whole reason Adobe is telling all these lies, and dodging all these questions, is because the only reason they bought Macromedia was for Flash.
And Dreamweaver which is much more widely used than Flash. But you are right about Flash as well. I think the warning shot was Macromedia releasing FlashPaper which converted PDF to Flash.
Okay, I love the banter back and forth. People see a word and get stuck on it. Then the whole argument derails on both sides because people take it personally for some strange reason.
Anywhooo....
Adobe seems to have the position that they want a product that is easy to write for multiple platforms and not be "stuck" or "limited" based on your "choice" of what you bought.
All the arguments here seem to indicate that Flash does not in fact meet or reach this goal. Does it run on multiple platforms - yes. Does it run on all platforms - no. Does HTML5 run on multiple platforms - yes. Does it run on all platforms - seems to (I could be wrong).
People claim Flash works on platform X. So what. Many are proving that it doesn't, or has major issues. The point is that Adobe seems to be claiming that their clearly proprietary Flash is the "java" of the web. Write once and it just works on whatever you have.
The truth seems to be that it does not in fact do this and people in droves are trying, or moving to alternatives.
Am I totally off in this?
There are many nuances of this whole debate and I know you trolls like to try and focus on just one or two. I chose to focus on the overall in my statement here. Adobe claims to be multi-platform and device independent, but I am not seeing that.
As for Apple being proprietary, yes they are and no they are not. Apple has created a lot of closed environments for sure. And they maintain those as they see fit. 100% support from me on their choice to do this. I can choose not to buy it if I don't want to.
They have also turned over a multitude of technologies to Open Standards boards. In a few cases they have even released it back to Open Source (a totally different term for those that can not differentiate between the two). More than we know. Some of it has been adopted and some of it has been shunned. Regardless, they still released it from their "proprietary" control. Prove that statement wrong.
To me that clearly makes an attack on them being labelled "closed" a little childish. Be specific and I can agree with you. Otherwise you are just proving how obtuse you are.
Nice 1st post... welcome to the snake pit!
.
The fanboi has no motive to fabricate his own version of truth after the entire webz laughed at him? Seriously?
that's not a valid argument at all. There's nothing that indicates this guy is a "fanboy" or that the prototype DIDN'T have button placement as he described.
What we CAN confirm is that Android gives dialogs when apps crash, and there wasn't one in the video. Why are you ignoring that fact?
T
So by your definition, mobile users do not have the Full Internet - and it's Adobe's fault for not releasing a version that works on mobile devices.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Ugh. I know you think you've just made some awesome point here, but you didn't.
It's not by "my definition" that users don't have the full internet, it's just a reality that everyone lives with. If you're on an ipad and you're navigating the web, you simply won't see everything (even though Jobs said it's "the best browsing experience of any device" and that includes laptops.)
What I see now is the fruits of Adobe's labor. It's coming together, and no matter how many times people around here want to post the SAME SINGLE video as proof it "crashes" (when in fact, it did not) it seems to be running very well, which flies right in the face of what Steve Jobs told everyone.
We get it... you love Flash and no doubt make a pretty penny 'developing' in it.
My point is that the only people who passionately 'need' Flash are those who
1) want their porn
2) want to bombard us with annoying jumping ads, and
3) want to play primitive games like Farmville.
And the constant meme from the pro-Flash crowd is that Apple forces you to use a 'crippled internet' (again the hubris) because it doesn't agree with the definition of "The Internet" as the 3 features above.
Do you see what you're doing right now? You're searching for my hidden motives for wanting flash on the iphone OS. You're ignoring the most obvious motive, which is simply to be able to view websites with flash on something like the ipad. Gosh I'm evil! My sinister motives!
As far as porn goes, who cares what someone does in their free time? You really want to use PORN as a reason not to have flash on an ipad? What's the matter with you?
And with games, a lot of them are quite fun time wasters. What's wrong with that?
I see a lot of arguing for the sake of arguing here. That doesn't make a very good discussion does it?.
Actually they did give it a chance. Back when the iPhone first came out Jobs said that they tried to work with Adobe on getting Flash to work and it didn't work. Adobe has taken too long and Apple has moved on to bigger and better.
Well to Adobe's credit, they have admitted an 800mhz cpu is needed, so if they knew then what they know now, they might have told Jobs "some day" and their relationship would have been better for it.
Got a link to anything talking about this attempt at a collaboration?
The whole web isn't going to change to HTML5 because of Steve Jobs, it'll change because of Flash. Flash has been a bad choice since the start of it, just because the ease of use. But Flash is bad to the client, it works horrible with the machine resources and Adobe haven't done anything to optimize it, maybe because it is impossible to make it better just because of its core malfunction. I guess Flash will never work well in mobile devices. It worked horrible in Desktops from 800MHZ under, complete machines with video cards, more RAM and capabilities than those in the Smartphones of today. The Adobe Flash intentions are just an utopia, they can't make it work, and even if they release a full mobile version it will be buggy, crashy and a big drainer, a big bad experience for the end user. And above all that you have that Flash content isn't possible to be indexed, and the efforts to do it are very disappointing, on the other hand HTML5 content is almost full indexable, and that is a really big plus. If I was Adobe I better re-create Flash as the best HTML5 animation compiler, to create banners and export is as HTML5 with JavaScript, that's the job they must have to do RIGHT NOW. Any time they expend trying to justify Flash on the Web is a waste. What could happen is that Apple creates a HTML5 Banner Creator Suite or something like that. Then, Adobe will REALLY, REALLY CRY OUT. Or maybe Apple decides to buy Adobe to straighten things up, who knows, but I don't think so, Adobe represents too many distractions for Apple. Anyway, forget about Flash, the time to begin a switch has come to a start.
Assumptions. You assume it will be bad. I say lets wait and see how it runs before we dismiss it.
The fact remains, however, Jobs is speaking about something he can't possibly know about. If no mobile flash exists, how can Jobs say it will be a battery drain? If Flash works great in Windows, but not in OSX, how can Jobs automatically dismiss it as a resource hog when it's proven it can be far from it?
Think of it this way: Imagine if Jobs left Flash out of OSX because he said it will always be a resource hogging battery drain, but every Windows machine runs it just fine. What would YOU think? That was just coincidence? That Adobe really doesn't know what they're doing but they LUCKED OUT when it came to Windows?
I can't wait to see how it runs in Android so we can finally put this debate to rest. I've never once said it will be great, or horrible, only that it shouldn't be discarded with hopes that everyone on the web will migrate to HTML5. How can anyone not see the logic in that? If Steve Jobs said "Maybe some day" this entire discussion wouldn't be taking place lol
You left out:
4. Pseudo developers who really don't know how to code, but have learned how to do Flash animations while refusing to learn html 5, Objective C, etc. This seems to be the loudest group in the whole issue, particularly with regard to the App Store. These 'developers' are too lazy to learn to code properly and want to create a Flash program and sell it on all platforms with no work on their part.
I'm sorry, but are you a software developer? How many programming languages are you comfortable in? How many different platforms could you write software for if that was your task at hand?
I look forward to your response and learning about you.
That said, let's talk about the present!
.
Seems to be working pretty well...
That's interesting. So they default to flash on desktop, and html5 for iphone OS. Why didn't they just get rid of Flash? I guess they figured they invested all that time and money, may as well make some use of it.
How does the site handle in OSX? Does it default to html5?
Grow up Adobe, next you will be signing you ads with happy faces and tear drop emotives. Apple has publicly challenged your company to put your coders to work and produce a product that runs on mobile devices. What have your done these past 3 years is ignored the future of technology and kept Flash performance on Windows PCs your priority. Apple has publicly called you out on this and you get all victim like telling the world how you really love Apple but you don't like be bullied. How lame!!!
Nicely said. Talk is cheap so naturally this is what Adobe is doing. Meanwhile there is work to be done that won't get done.