'We have never, ever abandoned Apple,' Adobe co-founder says

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  • Reply 121 of 189
    tofinotofino Posts: 697member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by err View Post


    snip



    You blindly bash at adobe, but they do lots of things right, and their dominance in those fields kind of proves my point.



    snip



    you're making assumptions. i've been using Illustrator and Photoshop since version 1.0 (well, version 88 in illustrator's case).

    my living depends on adobe and having seen what they've done over the last ten years to my favourite tools allows me to bash them with my eyes wide open, thank you very much.



    adobe's dominance in the market has more to do with them being allowed to acquire macromedia and scuttling their competition.



    corel had their chance on the mac, but failed to release a version for so long that by the time they got around to it, nobody cared any more.



    the competiton between freehand and illustrator was so productive that many graphic artists used both, myself included.



    i've never used indesign since i've also been using quark xpress since 1.0, when the alternative was aldus pagemaker, widely regarded as second grade in the professional world. framemaker was one of the best tools for technical publishing and for long documents that xpress didn't handle well at the time.



    the first version of indesign was not suitable for a production environment, since it had severe output problems (to postscript devices of all things! that's kind of a big deal when you're done with a project and need to deliver film).



    live picture was a great tool and both a competitor and a complementary tool to photoshop. bought by adobe.



    pagemaker is dead. freehand is dead. framemaker is dead.

    all died at adobe's hands.
  • Reply 122 of 189
    tofinotofino Posts: 697member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by freeny View Post


    With that logic all i need to do is disable all my plug-ins and my browsing experience magnificent



    heck, if i dont use my browser at all it will never crash



    lynx would be great too if enough sites actually offered text-only versions!
  • Reply 123 of 189
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,505member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post


    I personally don't know very much on the subject of openGL ES, as none of my projects currently would ever use it, but if you google it, you'll find out that player 10.1 will support it. So if a project needs it now, don't consider flash.



    But somehow, Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect you wouldn't consider flash player for a project anyway.



    Fair enough. Below is a link to an app in development. Normally, I avoid animation, but sometimes it is the best way to get the job done. I started with a table drilldown, but this works and shows better.



    This is an app for a friend who will [soon] publish her debut album.



    The animation approximates Apple's CoverFlow (a private API). Instead, it is [mostly] OpenGL ES code with an Objective-C package.



    Can Flash do this kind of application?



    [http://web.me.com/dicklacara/Misc/SS...emo-iPhone.m4v



    .
  • Reply 124 of 189
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chewbacca-What-A-Wookie View Post


    I wouldn't say that it's simply because HTML 5, CSS 3 and JavaScript are so new (and you probably didn?t mean it that way). As a developer, it is very appealing to use a technology like Flash or Silverlight since they will render content and behave exactly the same across the multitude of browsers. Although it would be nice to just use HTML, CSS, JavaScript for building web applications, the idea of making the pages compatible across browsers is appalling. There are even rendering differences between the major web browsers for the new versions (HTML 5 and CSS 3).



    This problem will likely be around for quite some time -- until the major web browsers render HTML, apply CSS and execute JavaScript exactly the same. Some of the standards the companies building browsers are trying to support are so complex that it is incredibly hard to have the exact same implementation.





    Good post. The design of Flash is very Apple-like in one respect. Flash controls the entire experience inside of its stage. Just like Apple tries to control everything about the iPhone. It is the best way to manage the user experience, without potential undesired side effects from third party interactions. HTML5, JS and CSS are not self contained, they rely on a browser to render the desired result. And all browsers do that rendering slightly different, hence loss of control.



    Eventually things will be sorted out with HTML5 but because it is designed by committee it will take a long time before a developer can really rely on it to render exactly the way they intended.
  • Reply 125 of 189
    john.bjohn.b Posts: 2,717member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    In Adobe's defense, Apple is still using plenty of Arbon in their pro suites, iLife and iTunes.



    I had assumed that iTunes 9.1 was converted to Cocoa when the list selection method went from unanchored to anchored (pretty sure this happened in 9.1 but I don't have older versions around to verify). Possibly this was just a change made specifically starting with the 9.1.x UI for consistency's sake (and it's still Carbon)?
  • Reply 126 of 189
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by John.B View Post


    I had assumed that iTunes 9.1 was converted to Cocoa when the list selection method went from unanchored to anchored (pretty sure this happened in 9.1 but I don't have older versions around to verify). Possibly this was just a change made specifically starting with the 9.1.x UI for consistency's sake (and it's still Carbon)?



    I'm guessing that Apple plans on releasing many new apps this year under the 'X' designation. it is two-thousand-ten, but it also seems to be a way to easily market Apps that have been converted to both Cocoa and 64-bit.



    iTunes just happens to be coming up to version 10 this year, so I full expect a full Cocoa/64-bit iTunes X to be showcased at the next iTunes/iPod Special Event around September. My only concern about that is the amount of work that is needed for this. It's just a recompile. Look at QT7 over QTX for an example. They will need to have iTunes X ready to play ball with relatively few issues and be very much the same as the current iTunes which is oft described as being too busy and excessive. They can rethink the whole concept but just like with the iPad UI over the iPhone UI, keeping the same familiar elements and functions are important. I think this is a much bigger challenge in many respects than the work they have to do with the iLife and Pro apps. I hope they release a developer Beta but Apple's desire for secrecy tells me that they won't unless they demo it at WWDC.
  • Reply 127 of 189
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Fair enough. Below is a link to an app in development. Normally, I avoid animation, but sometimes it is the best way to get the job done. I started with a table drilldown, but this works and shows better.



    This is an app for a friend who will [soon] publish her debut album.



    The animation approximates Apple's CoverFlow (a private API). Instead, it is [mostly] OpenGL ES code with an Objective-C package.



    Can Flash do this kind of application?



    [http://web.me.com/dicklacara/Misc/SS...emo-iPhone.m4v



    .



    Nice stuff. I think I could write that in Flash but it would be difficult because there are no built in touch functions. Without that you have to write all your own behaviors dragging invisible objects and what not. Flash is definitely not an optimal platform for touch interfaces at this point.
  • Reply 128 of 189
    groovetubegroovetube Posts: 557member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Fair enough. Below is a link to an app in development. Normally, I avoid animation, but sometimes it is the best way to get the job done. I started with a table drilldown, but this works and shows better.



    This is an app for a friend who will [soon] publish her debut album.



    The animation approximates Apple's CoverFlow (a private API). Instead, it is [mostly] OpenGL ES code with an Objective-C package.



    Can Flash do this kind of application?



    [http://web.me.com/dicklacara/Misc/SS...emo-iPhone.m4v



    .



    from what I saw, yes. I've used coverflow effects in flash when a client requested it. In fact you can find source complete with the shadow effect on the web. I to hack one up to get tied to a drupal backend and spit dynamic text into each "album", instead of an image.



    As far as openGL ES, and other features needed for a touchscreen, I can't comment, I have little to no experience in that.



    But if you're targeting iphone, flash is a bit of a non starter no?
  • Reply 129 of 189
    tofinotofino Posts: 697member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    Good post. The design of Flash is very Apple-like in one respect. Flash controls the entire experience inside of its stage. Just like Apple tries to control everything about the iPhone. It is the best way to manage the user experience, without potential undesired side effects from third party interactions.



    snip



    in theory that sounds great! in practice it never quite made it there, when 'undesired side effects' include serious problems on all platform but windows. \



    i just don't think that adobe is up to the task to fulfill the promise that was flash. implementation on all platforms is too big a job.
  • Reply 130 of 189
    errerr Posts: 10member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post


    If the company doesn't have their head in the sand and sees how the % of people still limited to IE 6 and 7 is eroding monthly, then why would they restrict themselves to those?



    Like IE6's has been eroding for how many years now?



    Any normal company will develop in the way it gets more of their client base, that's common sense. Even if the difference was 90% to 98%, they'd still develop to the 98%. Especially since flash is not a cancer like IE6 is. Lots of things can be done well in flash, even if you don't want to believe that.
  • Reply 131 of 189
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tofino View Post


    in theory that sounds great! in practice it never quite made it there, when 'undesired side effects' include serious problems on all platform but windows. \



    i just don't think that adobe is up to the task to fulfill the promise that was flash. implementation on all platforms is too big a job.



    What I meant was undesired things like missing fonts, object not found, media incompatible, wrong format, wrong encoding, wrong color, etc. Things that are in the stage. There was no reference to controlling anything outside of the stage. Flash is a resource hog no argument there, even on underpowered Windows machines you do see dropped frames, slowness and delayed reactions.



    I think of Flash as being capable of doing just about anything, not saying there aren't trade offs. It is just a matter of whether you accept the trade offs or not. It has its place and in instances where something else can do the job cheaper or better then in that case you should use the best tool for the job.
  • Reply 132 of 189
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Every comment err makes is laughable. It gets pretty pointless to respond to a poster when you have to correct every word they write. Good luck!
  • Reply 133 of 189
    extremeskaterextremeskater Posts: 2,248member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tofino View Post


    do you really think apple put a lot of energy into bashing adobe? i see adobe's staff blog a lot lately, certainly bashinging apple (brimelow?), and flash developers post on forums (understandable, we're talking about their living after all). all i've seen from apple is one open letter by mr. jobs and a couple of remarks by some pr person. did i miss something?



    The reality is one letter from Steve Jobs is what set all of this off. Then changing the Dev Agreement in regards to Flash was a major move by Apple. So yes I see them as both putting way too much time into making this issue worse rather than trying to make the browsing experience better for the end user.
  • Reply 134 of 189
    errerr Posts: 10member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Every comment err makes is laughable. It gets pretty pointless to respond to a poster when you have to correct every word they write. Good luck!



    errr...



    wait, what?



    you mean, "correct" with made up numbers and truisms that make no sense to anyone but those that close their eyes and say "yes it is, yes it is, yes it is"?



    So, you in your opinion someone should cater to what you consider best even if they are missing 20-40% of their potential costumers because "they'll erode in a few years"?



    Allow me to laugh
  • Reply 135 of 189
    stevehsteveh Posts: 480member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by err View Post


    I wonder, do you know that if someone has 35%, another 30, another 20%, the one with 35% is still a majority?



    It's not a majority, being less than 50% +1. It would be a plurality, which is just the largest entity of a group of entities.
  • Reply 136 of 189
    groovetubegroovetube Posts: 557member
    IE is no longer, a majority. Even if you combine 6,7 -and- 8.



    Firefox and chrome is far ahead of them.
  • Reply 137 of 189
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,505member
    2hout that you have to write all your own behaviors dragging invisible objects and what not. Flash is definitely not an optimal platform for touch interfaces at this point.[/QUOTE]

    Jed's Other Poem (Beautiful Ground)



    Thanks for the info! That's important to know.



    Based on another post I googled Flash CoverFlow! I found several that appear to do the job, except:



    1) they don't say if they are (or will be) supported on Mobile Flash.



    2) To get around the lack of touch, they use a slider at the bottom that you can drag with a mouse (or a finger if/when touch is implemented).



    It is interesting that Apple uses the same technique, a slider, in some versions of their iPod app.



    I believe the implementation I show is much more intuitive (touch the object rather than a slider} and a better UX the images on the screen are bigger and more readable.



    .
  • Reply 138 of 189
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,505member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post


    from what I saw, yes. I've used coverflow effects in flash when a client requested it. In fact you can find source complete with the shadow effect on the web. I to hack one up to get tied to a drupal backend and spit dynamic text into each "album", instead of an image.



    As far as openGL ES, and other features needed for a touchscreen, I can't comment, I have little to no experience in that.



    But if you're targeting iphone, flash is a bit of a non starter no?



    1) are any of these CoverFlow packages supported or planned on Mobile Flash.



    2) Obviously there is no text on the album covers... there are no album covers



    Your suggestion 'spit dynamic text onto each ""album"' is precisely what I try to avoid... while it may be cool for the first few minutes, it is distracting and gets old, while adding nothing.



    At some point, the client may want to reach other than iPhones... I am just testing the water,



    However, if we use Flash for Android, it appears we will need to dumb-down the touch interface to use a slider.



    .
  • Reply 139 of 189
    Flash sucks. Slow, crash prone and would be dead a long time ago if it wasn't for YouTube.
  • Reply 140 of 189
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    However, if we use Flash for Android, it appears we will need to dumb-down the touch interface to use a slider.



    Yeah that is the beauty of having a real touch API verses rolling your own. For example there is no good way I know to do things like pinch in Flash. Overlapping controls can get tricky when one object is used to drag and another needs to receive a click and release event. But anything is doable if you try hard enough.
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