As noble a thought as that is, the smart people at Apple would have done that if it were feasible. What you morons fail to notice is that while almost all of the other consumer electronics engineering has moved outside of the states, Apple develops these products in Cupertino. Stop vilifying this company, holding it to a ghost standard. Hold other companies to Apple's standard, let's start there.
What you fail to notice is that us morons are perfectly aware that Apple still maintains engineering and design staffs in the US. This is why we are willing to pay a premium for Apple products.
Duh...
With that out of the way, let's look at China. Let's accept, for the sake of argument, that Apple has to manufacture in China no matter what (and boy is it arguable).
So then, just what is stopping Apple from setting up their own plant in China rather than use outsourced low-bid manufacturing? They could pay better and offer better working conditions. They could avoid using toxic chemicals when there are non-toxic options (alcohol rather than n-hexane, for example). They could set an example for Chinese electronics manufacturing.
Given their high gross margins, cost impact would be minimal. Happier workers would do wonders for quality control. It would also be a huge, huge marketing move for Apple in the Chinese market.
I pay more because I expect more. And I also expect different, and I am getting sick of supporting a slave labor model in the 21st century. That's not different; that's a practice from the 1850's.
Although I feel extremely sorry for both the people & their families that are affected by suicide.
I don't think we should just target foxcon because with foxcon employing almost 800 000 workers worldwide (mostly in china) & the average suicide rate there being about 13.9 per 100 000, then they have either very robust workers or happy ones
The other thing that we need to take into consideration is that people suicide for many reasons. not just a heavy workload. They maybe affected by addictions, have separated from a partner, gambling problems etc etc. Just because they work for a company doesnt mean the company is always responsible.
If I worked for mcdonalds then went on a shooting spree, would mcdonalds be responsible?
Although I feel extremely sorry for both the people & their families that are affected by suicide.
I don't think we should just target foxcon because with foxcon employing almost 800 000 workers worldwide (mostly in china) & the average suicide rate there being about 13.9 per 100 000, then they have either very robust workers or happy ones
The other thing that we need to take into consideration is that people suicide for many reasons. not just a heavy workload. They maybe affected by addictions, have separated from a partner, gambling problems etc etc. Just because they work for a company doesnt mean the company is always responsible.
If I worked for mcdonalds then went on a shooting spree, would mcdonalds be responsible?
Just got an image of you blowing some dude away and shouting 'do you want fries with that'
This really represents a failure of the Chinese government to pass and enforce labor protection laws.
Ahem. Though they've greatly liberalized since the days of Mao they're a communist dictatorship still. Nominally, they pass laws. Really, the big man decides what to do. It's more of a consensus now, but it's not an elected parliament, you know?
The best way to enforce worker safety and health is by having a union and a shop foreman. The bosses just want to continue productivity. Communist, capitalist, it's the same. 29 die in West Virginia coal mines for production. 11 die on the BP oil rig for production. The Chinese will not allow free labor unions, and neither would Reagan. Tells you something.
The original undercover report says that workers complain that, without overtime, they don't make enough money to live. Have you ever worked in a factory? Factory workers here often say the same thing, because it's true.
"In February, U.S. Sen Dick Durbin, D-Ill., questioned the Mac maker, along with 29 other technology companies..."
This is the key. There are 30 companies who need to answer questions. But the story comes out talking about Apple. Why?
I think part of the problem here is that the Chinese rates of suicide generally are off the hook. Undoubtedly, this is embarrassing to Foxconn and Apple, but it's certainly within the statistical mean. According to Wolfram Alpha, the rate of suicide in China is 1 in 34 deaths, or 274,000 a year. The world average is 1 in 65 deaths.
So, the alternative to black is white? There are other colours you know.
What's required is government intervention - nothing else will do the job. In the face of an endless drive by companies to maximise profits and purchasers whose primary motivator for purchase is the price tag then, without legislation companies will do exactly what you'd expect unless they're motivated by other values, which is a rare thing. The outcome of this approach, as I'm hardly the first to point out, is the BP nightmare unfolding in the GOM, the Athabasca tar sands in Canada, mountaintop removal for coal in the USA, refinery explosions in Texas and in the UK, Bhopal in India and on and on.
So, off the top of my head, you enforce legislation which ensures that companies do the right thing, so you could make it a requirement that for the company directors to live in a country, then that company has to make the majority of its manufacturing profits in that country. So, if Steve Jobs, as an example, wants to live in California then Apple must make the products producing over 50% of its profits in the USA. As was suggested many years ago, if you have a factory which takes fresh water from a river, uses it for manufacture and then discharges its toxic waste downstream, the way you make them clean up their act is by legislation that requires them to discharge their waste upstream from their own fresh water inlet. Self interest wins out.
With more manufacture in, say the USA, then unemployment drops, the nation's psychological health would improve, national pride improves. Trying to find any product manufactured in a Western country these days is hard work for the reasons mentioned above. This never used to be the case until about 20 years ago when the 'outsourcing' race took off. There were good reasons why, for most of history, we've made things in our own countries and when those reasons reassert themselves (as they will with the coming end of abundant cheap energy) then local manufacture will need to return. The problem is that in the intervening years the indigenous manufacturing machinery and skills are often lost. Half of the UK's garment manufacturing has gone in the last 20 years - woollens made in the UK have been replaced by cheaper, synthetic garments made in China. However, nobody over here is going to manufacture mass market woollens unless the ground rules are changed by government legislation. Unless that happens then the inevitable result is that all manufacturing in the world will take place in China, India and Asia and the only thing not happening there will be banking and finance (and look where that's going!), tourism (which can't be outsourced!) and sales of all those foreign manufactured goods.
The drive to maximise profits above all else is creating a real mess for us and the planet.
If given the choice between buying an iPhone (etc) made in a Chinese sweatshop for, say, £100, or an iPhone made in a developed country for, say, £200, which would you choose?
I'd buy the latter, every time. I'd like to be given the choice.
Apple is a premium label - maybe not Bottega Veneta, but Lacoste at least - yet their products are manufactured in worse conditions than walmart or old navy.
i've said before that i would pay a 20% premium for apple products manufactured in the united states.
That's not the same situation. I don't think there's been 10 people who went postal this year in the US. These people live to work and nothing else. They don't even have the opportunity for a social life. The work all day long for what is less than minimum wage in this country.
I don't know if it's the tech giants fault, our fault or the Chinese gov'ts fault. Probably all three. There has to be some kind of change. NOBODY should have to live like this. This has only very little to do with Apple but rather the industry as a whole who only care about maximizing profits at anyone's expense. This is also a major problem in the US as well.
Do you actually know what the alternative is for these people? It's not pretty. There are far more people than jobs in China and most don't live very well.
I just saw TV program in China reporting on Foxconn this evening. They are being investigated and the sister of the guy that died stated that he had 4 big scars on his head and a couple holes in his body like someone stabbed him with a metal object.
Someone inside Foxconn management in China told me that the guy that lost the iPhone prototype actually was beaten to death by security guards and thrown off the building to make it look like a suicide. The security guards were fired for the incident.
Management at Foxconn works 6 full days a week (avg 12 hour days) and on 3 day long weekends, they only get 2 out of the 3. It looks like it is Foxconn's culture is to work their employees including their management to death. If you don't work those type of hours, the rest of your team would chastise you. Some staff will have their salary deducted if they are a few minutes late to work.
From the looks of this new case (and most of the other cases), this poor soul that "committed suicide" was probably just beaten to death because he did something wrong.
so if they worked less hours and got paid more they would all be happy and no suicides, right? but I thought money cannot buy happiness - so where is the link?
Although having money sure makes being sad more affordable.
if the latest guy was there only 42 days I would be looking into things like life insurance or some sort of fraud - maybe he go the job with the intent to kill himself and just had to wait 40 days before his family would get paid a death benefit or something along those lines.
{change subjects]
And what about the way we try to teach our kids that violence is never the answer - any casual reading of any random page in most history books begs to differ.
No union is allowed in China because a faked one exists.
No internet access is allowed to public community out of China.
No tax is directly spent on young workers's benifit.
No true Psychiatrist but communist mantor.
No hope for youth from rural area because their farm was taken by communist at penny price which is by law.
No house for youth because government boosted its price high for the sake GDP.
Enjoy your iPhone...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
A Chinese employee of Foxconn, the overseas manufacturer of numerous Apple products, jumped from a building to his death Tuesday, marking the 10th apparent suicide for the company in the last year.
According to the Associated Press, Li Hai, a 19-year-old worker who had been with the company for just 42 days, committed suicide on Tuesday. The death was the ninth at Foxconn's plant in the southern city of Shenzhen, a massive facility that houses more than 300,000 workers, while a tenth suicide occurred in January at a smaller plant in the norther Hebei providence. Two others at Shenzhen also attempted suicide, but survived.
Foxcon Chairman Terry Gou spoke with reporters on Monday, before the latest death, and said his company is "not running a sweatshop. We are confident we'll be able to stabilize the situation soon."
Last Friday, a 21-year-old worker at the factory jumped from a four-story building. That incident came only days after Southern Weekend issued an undercover report, revealing that employees sign "voluntary overtime affidavits" to take home more than the $132 equivalent local minimum wage that can be earned through a regular 36-hour workweek. Workers at the plant reportedly said, "without overtime, you can hardly make a living."
The most high-profile Foxconn-related suicide occurred in July of 2009, when a worker jumped from a 12-story building after one of 16 prototype iPhones he was responsible for went missing. Reports claimed that the man told friends before his death that security guards with Foxconn had aggressively questioned him regarding the missing prototype. Company officials alleged that the employee had a suspicious history.
Foxconn is believed to be the manufacturer of Apple's next-generation iPhone, expected to be unveiled at the start of the annual Worldwide Developers Conference, with a keynote from Chief Executive Steve Jobs set for June 7. The partnership with Foxconn has remained, but Apple now conducts an annual audit of its overseas partners. Last year's review found that more than half weren't paying their workers valid overtime rates.
Another Apple partner, Wintek, also recently came under fire in China when a number of employees were reportedly exposed to a poisonous chemical, n-hexane, which was used to clean the displays of some iPhones. Wintek said it treated workers for the exposure, but some have planned a lawsuit against the company. At least 62 workers have allegedly been hospitalized from exposure to n-hexane since August of 2009.
Despite its disclosures through the annual audits, first begun in 2006, Apple's partnerships with businesses in China have not gone without scrutiny. In February, U.S. Sen Dick Durbin, D-Ill., questioned the Mac maker, along with 29 other technology companies, for information on its human rights practices as they relate to Apple's presence in China.
Comments
As noble a thought as that is, the smart people at Apple would have done that if it were feasible. What you morons fail to notice is that while almost all of the other consumer electronics engineering has moved outside of the states, Apple develops these products in Cupertino. Stop vilifying this company, holding it to a ghost standard. Hold other companies to Apple's standard, let's start there.
What you fail to notice is that us morons are perfectly aware that Apple still maintains engineering and design staffs in the US. This is why we are willing to pay a premium for Apple products.
Duh...
With that out of the way, let's look at China. Let's accept, for the sake of argument, that Apple has to manufacture in China no matter what (and boy is it arguable).
So then, just what is stopping Apple from setting up their own plant in China rather than use outsourced low-bid manufacturing? They could pay better and offer better working conditions. They could avoid using toxic chemicals when there are non-toxic options (alcohol rather than n-hexane, for example). They could set an example for Chinese electronics manufacturing.
Given their high gross margins, cost impact would be minimal. Happier workers would do wonders for quality control. It would also be a huge, huge marketing move for Apple in the Chinese market.
I pay more because I expect more. And I also expect different, and I am getting sick of supporting a slave labor model in the 21st century. That's not different; that's a practice from the 1850's.
I don't think we should just target foxcon because with foxcon employing almost 800 000 workers worldwide (mostly in china) & the average suicide rate there being about 13.9 per 100 000, then they have either very robust workers or happy ones
The other thing that we need to take into consideration is that people suicide for many reasons. not just a heavy workload. They maybe affected by addictions, have separated from a partner, gambling problems etc etc. Just because they work for a company doesnt mean the company is always responsible.
If I worked for mcdonalds then went on a shooting spree, would mcdonalds be responsible?
Although I feel extremely sorry for both the people & their families that are affected by suicide.
I don't think we should just target foxcon because with foxcon employing almost 800 000 workers worldwide (mostly in china) & the average suicide rate there being about 13.9 per 100 000, then they have either very robust workers or happy ones
The other thing that we need to take into consideration is that people suicide for many reasons. not just a heavy workload. They maybe affected by addictions, have separated from a partner, gambling problems etc etc. Just because they work for a company doesnt mean the company is always responsible.
If I worked for mcdonalds then went on a shooting spree, would mcdonalds be responsible?
Just got an image of you blowing some dude away and shouting 'do you want fries with that'
This really represents a failure of the Chinese government to pass and enforce labor protection laws.
Ahem. Though they've greatly liberalized since the days of Mao they're a communist dictatorship still. Nominally, they pass laws. Really, the big man decides what to do. It's more of a consensus now, but it's not an elected parliament, you know?
The best way to enforce worker safety and health is by having a union and a shop foreman. The bosses just want to continue productivity. Communist, capitalist, it's the same. 29 die in West Virginia coal mines for production. 11 die on the BP oil rig for production. The Chinese will not allow free labor unions, and neither would Reagan. Tells you something.
The original undercover report says that workers complain that, without overtime, they don't make enough money to live. Have you ever worked in a factory? Factory workers here often say the same thing, because it's true.
"In February, U.S. Sen Dick Durbin, D-Ill., questioned the Mac maker, along with 29 other technology companies..."
This is the key. There are 30 companies who need to answer questions. But the story comes out talking about Apple. Why?
I think part of the problem here is that the Chinese rates of suicide generally are off the hook. Undoubtedly, this is embarrassing to Foxconn and Apple, but it's certainly within the statistical mean. According to Wolfram Alpha, the rate of suicide in China is 1 in 34 deaths, or 274,000 a year. The world average is 1 in 65 deaths.
It's all just a part of the religion of the free market. When you value the market above all else individuals are expendable.
Yep - just go and have a look at what's going on down in the Gulf of Mexico for another fine example.
So what exactly is your "solution"?
The equivalent of Soviet era cars? No thank you.
So, the alternative to black is white? There are other colours you know.
What's required is government intervention - nothing else will do the job. In the face of an endless drive by companies to maximise profits and purchasers whose primary motivator for purchase is the price tag then, without legislation companies will do exactly what you'd expect unless they're motivated by other values, which is a rare thing. The outcome of this approach, as I'm hardly the first to point out, is the BP nightmare unfolding in the GOM, the Athabasca tar sands in Canada, mountaintop removal for coal in the USA, refinery explosions in Texas and in the UK, Bhopal in India and on and on.
So, off the top of my head, you enforce legislation which ensures that companies do the right thing, so you could make it a requirement that for the company directors to live in a country, then that company has to make the majority of its manufacturing profits in that country. So, if Steve Jobs, as an example, wants to live in California then Apple must make the products producing over 50% of its profits in the USA. As was suggested many years ago, if you have a factory which takes fresh water from a river, uses it for manufacture and then discharges its toxic waste downstream, the way you make them clean up their act is by legislation that requires them to discharge their waste upstream from their own fresh water inlet. Self interest wins out.
With more manufacture in, say the USA, then unemployment drops, the nation's psychological health would improve, national pride improves. Trying to find any product manufactured in a Western country these days is hard work for the reasons mentioned above. This never used to be the case until about 20 years ago when the 'outsourcing' race took off. There were good reasons why, for most of history, we've made things in our own countries and when those reasons reassert themselves (as they will with the coming end of abundant cheap energy) then local manufacture will need to return. The problem is that in the intervening years the indigenous manufacturing machinery and skills are often lost. Half of the UK's garment manufacturing has gone in the last 20 years - woollens made in the UK have been replaced by cheaper, synthetic garments made in China. However, nobody over here is going to manufacture mass market woollens unless the ground rules are changed by government legislation. Unless that happens then the inevitable result is that all manufacturing in the world will take place in China, India and Asia and the only thing not happening there will be banking and finance (and look where that's going!), tourism (which can't be outsourced!) and sales of all those foreign manufactured goods.
The drive to maximise profits above all else is creating a real mess for us and the planet.
I'd buy the latter, every time. I'd like to be given the choice.
i've said before that i would pay a 20% premium for apple products manufactured in the united states.
That's not the same situation. I don't think there's been 10 people who went postal this year in the US. These people live to work and nothing else. They don't even have the opportunity for a social life. The work all day long for what is less than minimum wage in this country.
I don't know if it's the tech giants fault, our fault or the Chinese gov'ts fault. Probably all three. There has to be some kind of change. NOBODY should have to live like this. This has only very little to do with Apple but rather the industry as a whole who only care about maximizing profits at anyone's expense. This is also a major problem in the US as well.
Do you actually know what the alternative is for these people? It's not pretty. There are far more people than jobs in China and most don't live very well.
Someone inside Foxconn management in China told me that the guy that lost the iPhone prototype actually was beaten to death by security guards and thrown off the building to make it look like a suicide. The security guards were fired for the incident.
Management at Foxconn works 6 full days a week (avg 12 hour days) and on 3 day long weekends, they only get 2 out of the 3. It looks like it is Foxconn's culture is to work their employees including their management to death. If you don't work those type of hours, the rest of your team would chastise you. Some staff will have their salary deducted if they are a few minutes late to work.
From the looks of this new case (and most of the other cases), this poor soul that "committed suicide" was probably just beaten to death because he did something wrong.
Although having money sure makes being sad more affordable.
if the latest guy was there only 42 days I would be looking into things like life insurance or some sort of fraud - maybe he go the job with the intent to kill himself and just had to wait 40 days before his family would get paid a death benefit or something along those lines.
{change subjects]
And what about the way we try to teach our kids that violence is never the answer - any casual reading of any random page in most history books begs to differ.
No internet access is allowed to public community out of China.
No tax is directly spent on young workers's benifit.
No true Psychiatrist but communist mantor.
No hope for youth from rural area because their farm was taken by communist at penny price which is by law.
No house for youth because government boosted its price high for the sake GDP.
Enjoy your iPhone...
A Chinese employee of Foxconn, the overseas manufacturer of numerous Apple products, jumped from a building to his death Tuesday, marking the 10th apparent suicide for the company in the last year.
According to the Associated Press, Li Hai, a 19-year-old worker who had been with the company for just 42 days, committed suicide on Tuesday. The death was the ninth at Foxconn's plant in the southern city of Shenzhen, a massive facility that houses more than 300,000 workers, while a tenth suicide occurred in January at a smaller plant in the norther Hebei providence. Two others at Shenzhen also attempted suicide, but survived.
Foxcon Chairman Terry Gou spoke with reporters on Monday, before the latest death, and said his company is "not running a sweatshop. We are confident we'll be able to stabilize the situation soon."
Last Friday, a 21-year-old worker at the factory jumped from a four-story building. That incident came only days after Southern Weekend issued an undercover report, revealing that employees sign "voluntary overtime affidavits" to take home more than the $132 equivalent local minimum wage that can be earned through a regular 36-hour workweek. Workers at the plant reportedly said, "without overtime, you can hardly make a living."
The most high-profile Foxconn-related suicide occurred in July of 2009, when a worker jumped from a 12-story building after one of 16 prototype iPhones he was responsible for went missing. Reports claimed that the man told friends before his death that security guards with Foxconn had aggressively questioned him regarding the missing prototype. Company officials alleged that the employee had a suspicious history.
Foxconn is believed to be the manufacturer of Apple's next-generation iPhone, expected to be unveiled at the start of the annual Worldwide Developers Conference, with a keynote from Chief Executive Steve Jobs set for June 7. The partnership with Foxconn has remained, but Apple now conducts an annual audit of its overseas partners. Last year's review found that more than half weren't paying their workers valid overtime rates.
Another Apple partner, Wintek, also recently came under fire in China when a number of employees were reportedly exposed to a poisonous chemical, n-hexane, which was used to clean the displays of some iPhones. Wintek said it treated workers for the exposure, but some have planned a lawsuit against the company. At least 62 workers have allegedly been hospitalized from exposure to n-hexane since August of 2009.
Despite its disclosures through the annual audits, first begun in 2006, Apple's partnerships with businesses in China have not gone without scrutiny. In February, U.S. Sen Dick Durbin, D-Ill., questioned the Mac maker, along with 29 other technology companies, for information on its human rights practices as they relate to Apple's presence in China.