Well, I see you're up to your old tricks again. Let's review:
1. You're always wrong.
2. You're not as smart as you think you are.
3. See 1.
Others having reduced your argument to a tiny heap of rubble, nothing more needs to be said.
LOL.
And we can see you are up to your old tricks again, if you can even call them tricks. Yet again saying alot of nothing because you don't even know what we are talking about to give an educated answer.
1. It was done by a warranty company and has no validity outside their customer base.
2. If you had a problem with a $300 Asus netbook and a $2500 MacBook Pro, which one are you more likely to take the time to have repaired?
Asus' rating was so high because a huge percentage of their computers were so cheap that people throw them out if they're more than 6 months old and have a problem. It's really sad that people like you are still considering that to have any meaning at all.
Why not look at the surveys done by groups that actually measure REAL reliability?
Damn you are getting as bad as mouse which is saying something. Well that isn't true at least you attempt to say something.
What I quoted isn't a survey they are actual stats taken each year on repairs and customer satisfaction which by the way you brought up. If your going to say Apple has the highest then clearly you must have looked at some stats didn't you?
Which Apple is rated the highest by customers year after year, we all know this but that doesn't mean they have the lowest rate of repair which would get back to our debate concerning hardware.
Apple uses good hardware but its not different then any other hardware that any tier 1 or tier 2 builder would use. When you start talking about companies like Velocity Micro which is on par price wise with Apple you will find they use a much higher level of hardware because they build systems for gamers.
Lets look at it this way for a 17" MBP you could spend 3000.00, do you know what kind of 17" high end notebook you can get for 3k on the Windows side? I mean come on.
I do believe Apple exceeds the rest when it comes to hardware like the iPhone, iPad, and iPod, without a doubt, but not when it comes to their notebooks or AIO. Even more so when you put them up against a quality company which I would agree with ou Dell is not one.
Oh, I see, you were being sarcastic because you didn't like me being critical of Apple's 'crap components' on the desktop.
Sorry, I forgot...we're not allowed to do free speech on here...unless its Soli's free speech and opnions that we are agreeing with...
*Nods...
Let's give it a try, shall we?
'The Mac Mini, with integrated craapics, sorry, 'great' graphics, and speed melting, up to date Core 2 Duo with a massive 2 gigs of ram and a speedy 7200rpm hard drive make this mini the best yet...despite being only slighly more expensive! The best, most competitive desktop you can get under a 1000K using only the very best components packed into a design smaller than a biscuit tin!'
I suppose if I try it with lubricant it will be easier to take...because it sure felt rough...saying it.
- As you've indicated, warranty costs are higher due to different laws
- VAT included
- Import duties
- Higher employee costs in most European countries
- Higher overhead costs due to taxes, etc
Then don't friggin' buy one.
I'm glad you're happy buying bucket shop computers. It's not the same thing by ANY stretch of the imagination. I bet you'd say a Yugo is identical BMW because it has the same number of doors, seats the same number of people, and both have one steering wheel, too.
Not that mindless survey again.
1. It was done by a warranty company and has no validity outside their customer base.
2. If you had a problem with a $300 Asus netbook and a $2500 MacBook Pro, which one are you more likely to take the time to have repaired?
Asus' rating was so high because a huge percentage of their computers were so cheap that people throw them out if they're more than 6 months old and have a problem. It's really sad that people like you are still considering that to have any meaning at all.
Why not look at the surveys done by groups that actually measure REAL reliability?
Heh. So overclockers sell 'bucket shop' computers? Re-hi-hee-heally?
S'funny, my mate's PC is still going almost 3 years later. Great case. 'Decent' OS.
'Friggin'?
Who said anything about me buying a mini? Do I look insane? 'Here's £650 for a cutting edge desktop...'
Damn you are getting as bad as mouse which is saying something. Well that isn't true at least you attempt to say something.
What I quoted isn't a survey they are actual stats taken each year on repairs and customer satisfaction which by the way you brought up. If your going to say Apple has the highest then clearly you must have looked at some stats didn't you?
Did you even read what I wrote? Or what that survey says?
It's a survey done by a third party warranty service and measures ONLY THEIR CUSTOMERS. Furthermore, it's a biased survey because it only reports on the number brought in for repair. If you have a 1 year old Asus netbook that was $300 new and is probably worth $50 today are you going to take it in for repair? Now, if you have a $3,000 MBP that is still worth over $2,000 and something breaks are you going to take it in? Obviously, the percentage of computers brought in for repair is NOT equal to the percentage of defects.
Go to Consumer Reports. Or PC World. Or PC Magazine. Or CNET. Or Fortune. Or any of the other dozens of magazines that do real surveys indicating the percentage of failures. The Mac is always at or near the top of the reliability list. Always.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon.
Heh. So overclockers sell 'bucket shop' computers? Re-hi-hee-heally?
S'funny, my mate's PC is still going almost 3 years later. Great case. 'Decent' OS.
Oooohhhh. 3 years. That must be a really fine computer.
Heck, the fact that you consider a 3 year old computer to be representative of quality proves my point as well as any thing.
And, yes, Overclockers is a bucket shop compared to Apple or Toshiba or any of the other quality vendors.
I can't imagine what other alternative Apple has based on their current business model. They can't get a first batches of a new CPU like Dell and HP can and then advertise a brand new or update BTO model. They dominate the upper-teir of the market. That means they need to have sufficient product for their machines and they can't do that when Intel et al. haven't geared up production. The argument that Dell and HP sell a lot more product than Apple is irrelevant because almost all of them are with old tech that is high volume.
Dunno. Strategy seems to be charge more with each update.
While offering 'old tech' that you claim their competitors use. So Apple doesn't?
What do you call the Core 2 duo in the mini and iMac? Old? New?
What do you call the GPU in the Mac 'pro' old? New?
Oh. The question. Are you suggesting that I suggest something that you agree with?
That doesn't necessarily rule out the heat issue. It could be that the optical drive blocks air flow enough that the 7200 would be a problem. I don't know for sure, but I"m assuming that these use 2.5" disks, so it's plausible that the airflow around a second hard disk would be better than the airflow around an optical drive, allowing for faster drives in the server version.
Yep plus the first time someone pointed that out to me earlier in this thread I said it's also likely either an attempt by Apple to differentiate the server product further or else they figure the difference between 5400 and 7200 for a single user isn't a huge deal (which it isn't), but if it's acting as a server for 4 or 5 people hitting it simultaneously, the difference in speed would be more noticeable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
But don't expect a powerful GPU from Apple. Gaming on the Mac? Well, at least Valve is trying. But the Source engine is pretty efficient and not as demanding as the newer titles.
BUT THOSE DAMNED PC CASES ARE SO BLOODY UGLY... GEEZ.
Reports are saying that several gaming companies are adding Mac divsions, so we could well see an increase in how many games released come to the Mac as well. It would be nice if Apple was ready for it.
As far as cases, yes a lot of them are ugly as hell. I like my NZXT Hush
http://www.nzxt.com/new/products/classic_series/hu001 . Padding and foam inside to help absorb noise and keep things quiet, it has the one blue LED in front, but that's it. No case window with several other LEDs showing off the inside of the case or anything. We actually ordered 2 of them when we built mine and moved my wife's HP system into it since she needed a new power supply for the vcard I was buying her and it wouldn't fit in the HP case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Are you in the camp that Apple should have gone with Core-i3 and Intel HD in all their current C2D models?
Speaking for myself, I would like to have seen Apple move away from c2d and IGPs, but the i3 isn't really an improvement over the c2d, especially if it means losing the Nvidia igp and using an Intel one. i5 and discrete GPUs are what should be aimed for as minimums, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
US: Does not include sales tax.
EU: Includes VAT.
Here in Kentucky sales tax is just 6%, so that still only makes $740.94. All these systems are being shipped from China, we know increased shipping prices aren't the cause of the price difference.
The US one doesn't include sales tax in the advertised price, it's added at the time the sale is completed. (Sales tax is almost never included in a US advertised price. Partly because each state sets is own sales tax and some states don't have a sales tax at all, choosing to take our money in other ways.)
If you have a problem with the VAT vs no sales tax pricing, take that up with your government, not Apple. That VAT percentage you guys pay is just plain whacked!
The US one doesn't include sales tax in the advertised price, it's added at the time the sale is completed. (Sales tax is almost never included in a US advertised price. Partly because each state sets is own sales tax and some states don't have a sales tax at all, choosing to take our money in other ways.)
If you have a problem with the VAT vs no sales tax pricing, take that up with your government, not Apple. That VAT percentage you guys pay is just plain whacked!
The bottom line is, Apple originally created the mini to be a "cheap" Mac that would draw in buyers who would otherwise not look at a Mac for a desktop computer. It no longer serves that purpose. It's not cheap enough.
Does anyone use the Mac mini to play EVE-Online? How well does the game play on the Mac? Does it look as nice on an HDTV as it does on a computer monitor?
I love how you people just grab the sale price, maybe to a conversion to same currency, but then don't factor a single thing into the additional charges one country might impose over another. No Eco 101 these days?
We certainly are factoring in the additional costs. You do need to realize that all computer manufactures including Alienware have a base in India. No one has a price tag that is as skewed as Apple when you compare it with the US prices.
Sorry, but you just have to accept that we do get gouged. $699 equates to £472 at current exchange rate. There is no import duty on computer equipment from the US, and the UK price (excluding tax) is £552, so we are sucking up an extra $118 (again, excluding taxes) compared to US price.
Even if we accept that it's more expensive doing business in the UK/Europe, the $100 increase from the old model got translated into an extra $164 at this end excluding taxes... and because we then get stiffed for the VAT, that extra $64 then becomes an extra $75 on the bottom line - that's why we get a bit p*ssed
EDIT: ... no import duty from China either
It's not so much gouging as Apple being horrible at supply chain management. The extra $ isn't being taken by Apple, it's wasted along the way.
I remember reading an article last year that layed it out. It suggested that for many non-U.S. countries, Apple couldn't even tell you how their products get there. They subcontract it out, pay a fee, slap the fee on that country's price and are done with it. Pathetic really.
Comments
Well, I see you're up to your old tricks again. Let's review:
1. You're always wrong.
2. You're not as smart as you think you are.
3. See 1.
Others having reduced your argument to a tiny heap of rubble, nothing more needs to be said.
LOL.
And we can see you are up to your old tricks again, if you can even call them tricks. Yet again saying alot of nothing because you don't even know what we are talking about to give an educated answer.
Not that mindless survey again.
1. It was done by a warranty company and has no validity outside their customer base.
2. If you had a problem with a $300 Asus netbook and a $2500 MacBook Pro, which one are you more likely to take the time to have repaired?
Asus' rating was so high because a huge percentage of their computers were so cheap that people throw them out if they're more than 6 months old and have a problem. It's really sad that people like you are still considering that to have any meaning at all.
Why not look at the surveys done by groups that actually measure REAL reliability?
Damn you are getting as bad as mouse which is saying something. Well that isn't true at least you attempt to say something.
What I quoted isn't a survey they are actual stats taken each year on repairs and customer satisfaction which by the way you brought up. If your going to say Apple has the highest then clearly you must have looked at some stats didn't you?
Which Apple is rated the highest by customers year after year, we all know this but that doesn't mean they have the lowest rate of repair which would get back to our debate concerning hardware.
Apple uses good hardware but its not different then any other hardware that any tier 1 or tier 2 builder would use. When you start talking about companies like Velocity Micro which is on par price wise with Apple you will find they use a much higher level of hardware because they build systems for gamers.
Lets look at it this way for a 17" MBP you could spend 3000.00, do you know what kind of 17" high end notebook you can get for 3k on the Windows side? I mean come on.
I do believe Apple exceeds the rest when it comes to hardware like the iPhone, iPad, and iPod, without a doubt, but not when it comes to their notebooks or AIO. Even more so when you put them up against a quality company which I would agree with ou Dell is not one.
Those two minor areas... oh, wait¡
Who said they were minor? Mr. Sulky face?
Oh, I see, you were being sarcastic because you didn't like me being critical of Apple's 'crap components' on the desktop.
Sorry, I forgot...we're not allowed to do free speech on here...unless its Soli's free speech and opnions that we are agreeing with...
*Nods...
Let's give it a try, shall we?
'The Mac Mini, with integrated craapics, sorry, 'great' graphics, and speed melting, up to date Core 2 Duo with a massive 2 gigs of ram and a speedy 7200rpm hard drive make this mini the best yet...despite being only slighly more expensive! The best, most competitive desktop you can get under a 1000K using only the very best components packed into a design smaller than a biscuit tin!'
I suppose if I try it with lubricant it will be easier to take...because it sure felt rough...saying it.
Lemon Bon Bon.
MANY additional costs.
- As you've indicated, warranty costs are higher due to different laws
- VAT included
- Import duties
- Higher employee costs in most European countries
- Higher overhead costs due to taxes, etc
Then don't friggin' buy one.
I'm glad you're happy buying bucket shop computers. It's not the same thing by ANY stretch of the imagination. I bet you'd say a Yugo is identical BMW because it has the same number of doors, seats the same number of people, and both have one steering wheel, too.
Not that mindless survey again.
1. It was done by a warranty company and has no validity outside their customer base.
2. If you had a problem with a $300 Asus netbook and a $2500 MacBook Pro, which one are you more likely to take the time to have repaired?
Asus' rating was so high because a huge percentage of their computers were so cheap that people throw them out if they're more than 6 months old and have a problem. It's really sad that people like you are still considering that to have any meaning at all.
Why not look at the surveys done by groups that actually measure REAL reliability?
Heh. So overclockers sell 'bucket shop' computers? Re-hi-hee-heally?
S'funny, my mate's PC is still going almost 3 years later. Great case. 'Decent' OS.
'Friggin'?
Who said anything about me buying a mini? Do I look insane? 'Here's £650 for a cutting edge desktop...'
Don't answer that.
Lemon Bon Bon.
US: Does not include sales tax.
EU: Includes VAT.
Are You sure?
store,apple.com/us
MBook $ 999 / MBP $ 1199 / iMac $ 1199
store,apple.com/de
MBook Eur 1015 / MBP Eur 1166 / iMac Eur 1115
sales tax / Vat / that goes just with a Mac mini? Bullshit.
Damn you are getting as bad as mouse which is saying something. Well that isn't true at least you attempt to say something.
What I quoted isn't a survey they are actual stats taken each year on repairs and customer satisfaction which by the way you brought up. If your going to say Apple has the highest then clearly you must have looked at some stats didn't you?
Did you even read what I wrote? Or what that survey says?
It's a survey done by a third party warranty service and measures ONLY THEIR CUSTOMERS. Furthermore, it's a biased survey because it only reports on the number brought in for repair. If you have a 1 year old Asus netbook that was $300 new and is probably worth $50 today are you going to take it in for repair? Now, if you have a $3,000 MBP that is still worth over $2,000 and something breaks are you going to take it in? Obviously, the percentage of computers brought in for repair is NOT equal to the percentage of defects.
Go to Consumer Reports. Or PC World. Or PC Magazine. Or CNET. Or Fortune. Or any of the other dozens of magazines that do real surveys indicating the percentage of failures. The Mac is always at or near the top of the reliability list. Always.
Heh. So overclockers sell 'bucket shop' computers? Re-hi-hee-heally?
S'funny, my mate's PC is still going almost 3 years later. Great case. 'Decent' OS.
Oooohhhh. 3 years. That must be a really fine computer.
Heck, the fact that you consider a 3 year old computer to be representative of quality proves my point as well as any thing.
And, yes, Overclockers is a bucket shop compared to Apple or Toshiba or any of the other quality vendors.
I can't imagine what other alternative Apple has based on their current business model. They can't get a first batches of a new CPU like Dell and HP can and then advertise a brand new or update BTO model. They dominate the upper-teir of the market. That means they need to have sufficient product for their machines and they can't do that when Intel et al. haven't geared up production. The argument that Dell and HP sell a lot more product than Apple is irrelevant because almost all of them are with old tech that is high volume.
Dunno. Strategy seems to be charge more with each update.
While offering 'old tech' that you claim their competitors use. So Apple doesn't?
What do you call the Core 2 duo in the mini and iMac? Old? New?
What do you call the GPU in the Mac 'pro' old? New?
Oh. The question. Are you suggesting that I suggest something that you agree with?
Lemon Bon Bon.
That doesn't necessarily rule out the heat issue. It could be that the optical drive blocks air flow enough that the 7200 would be a problem. I don't know for sure, but I"m assuming that these use 2.5" disks, so it's plausible that the airflow around a second hard disk would be better than the airflow around an optical drive, allowing for faster drives in the server version.
Yep plus the first time someone pointed that out to me earlier in this thread I said it's also likely either an attempt by Apple to differentiate the server product further or else they figure the difference between 5400 and 7200 for a single user isn't a huge deal (which it isn't), but if it's acting as a server for 4 or 5 people hitting it simultaneously, the difference in speed would be more noticeable.
But don't expect a powerful GPU from Apple. Gaming on the Mac? Well, at least Valve is trying. But the Source engine is pretty efficient and not as demanding as the newer titles.
BUT THOSE DAMNED PC CASES ARE SO BLOODY UGLY... GEEZ.
Reports are saying that several gaming companies are adding Mac divsions, so we could well see an increase in how many games released come to the Mac as well. It would be nice if Apple was ready for it.
As far as cases, yes a lot of them are ugly as hell. I like my NZXT Hush
http://www.nzxt.com/new/products/classic_series/hu001 . Padding and foam inside to help absorb noise and keep things quiet, it has the one blue LED in front, but that's it. No case window with several other LEDs showing off the inside of the case or anything. We actually ordered 2 of them when we built mine and moved my wife's HP system into it since she needed a new power supply for the vcard I was buying her and it wouldn't fit in the HP case.
Are you in the camp that Apple should have gone with Core-i3 and Intel HD in all their current C2D models?
Speaking for myself, I would like to have seen Apple move away from c2d and IGPs, but the i3 isn't really an improvement over the c2d, especially if it means losing the Nvidia igp and using an Intel one. i5 and discrete GPUs are what should be aimed for as minimums, IMO.
US: Does not include sales tax.
EU: Includes VAT.
Here in Kentucky sales tax is just 6%, so that still only makes $740.94. All these systems are being shipped from China, we know increased shipping prices aren't the cause of the price difference.
http://store.apple.com/us $ 699
http://store.apple.com/de Eur 809
? Wait a minute. WTF?
Does the German version include VAT?
The US one doesn't include sales tax in the advertised price, it's added at the time the sale is completed. (Sales tax is almost never included in a US advertised price. Partly because each state sets is own sales tax and some states don't have a sales tax at all, choosing to take our money in other ways.)
If you have a problem with the VAT vs no sales tax pricing, take that up with your government, not Apple. That VAT percentage you guys pay is just plain whacked!
Does the German version include VAT?
The US one doesn't include sales tax in the advertised price, it's added at the time the sale is completed. (Sales tax is almost never included in a US advertised price. Partly because each state sets is own sales tax and some states don't have a sales tax at all, choosing to take our money in other ways.)
If you have a problem with the VAT vs no sales tax pricing, take that up with your government, not Apple. That VAT percentage you guys pay is just plain whacked!
Ok, again:
store,apple.com/us
MBook $ 999 / MBP $ 1199 / iMac $ 1199
store,apple.com/de
MBook Eur 1015 / MBP Eur 1166 / iMac Eur 1115
and there we go with a new Mac mini :
http://store.apple.com/us $ 699
http://store.apple.com/de Eur 809
See the difference? No? Forget it.
Ok, again:
store,apple.com/us
MBook $ 999 / MBP $ 1199 / iMac $ 1199
store,apple.com/de
MBook Eur 1015 / MBP Eur 1166 / iMac Eur 1115
and there we go with a new Mac mini :
http://store.apple.com/us $ 699
http://store.apple.com/de Eur 809
See the difference? No? Forget it.
It looks like we are getting ripped off for the MacBook, MBP, and iMac here in the US! LOL!
Ok, again:
store,apple.com/us
MBook $ 999 / MBP $ 1199 / iMac $ 1199
store,apple.com/de
MBook Eur 1015 / MBP Eur 1166 / iMac Eur 1115
and there we go with a new Mac mini :
http://store.apple.com/us $ 699
http://store.apple.com/de Eur 809
See the difference? No? Forget it.
Have you considered the economy at the time of release?
I love how you people just grab the sale price, maybe to a conversion to same currency, but then don't factor a single thing into the additional charges one country might impose over another. No Eco 101 these days?
We certainly are factoring in the additional costs. You do need to realize that all computer manufactures including Alienware have a base in India. No one has a price tag that is as skewed as Apple when you compare it with the US prices.
And iPhones are unlocked, too.
But we still haven't got iPads.
New Mac Mini - HK$5588, HK$7988 --> US$721, US$1031 NO TAXES.
Pretty much the only places you can get Apple products cheaper are those five states with no sales tax.
Have you considered the economy at the time of release?
Actually I was even thinking about Apple related butterfly effect on the Mac mini release day. We are Your friends.
Sorry, but you just have to accept that we do get gouged. $699 equates to £472 at current exchange rate. There is no import duty on computer equipment from the US, and the UK price (excluding tax) is £552, so we are sucking up an extra $118 (again, excluding taxes) compared to US price.
Even if we accept that it's more expensive doing business in the UK/Europe, the $100 increase from the old model got translated into an extra $164 at this end excluding taxes... and because we then get stiffed for the VAT, that extra $64 then becomes an extra $75 on the bottom line - that's why we get a bit p*ssed
EDIT: ... no import duty from China either
It's not so much gouging as Apple being horrible at supply chain management. The extra $ isn't being taken by Apple, it's wasted along the way.
I remember reading an article last year that layed it out. It suggested that for many non-U.S. countries, Apple couldn't even tell you how their products get there. They subcontract it out, pay a fee, slap the fee on that country's price and are done with it. Pathetic really.