[quote]1) Do you really think that Jeb Bush somehow convinced the WHOLE MEDIA to "reverse Florida"? <hr></blockquote>
not the media...but he could "convince" some polling places to misplace machines, change counts, etc....we accuse this of other countries, why can't it happen here...not saying it did, but it looks bad when you brother says you will win his state, then suddenly you are losing it, he gets on the phone and you just happen to be winning it again shortly thereafter...
[quote] 3) Gore. Wow. You are amazing. People like you actually believe that Gore was somehow cheated out of the election. The fact was it was Bush who was cheated. <hr></blockquote>
people like you...love it...we disagree, no big deal...why is it that the radial right hates everyone who doesn't think like them? i don't hate the people on the right, just think they are amusing...
[quote] Gore's behavior was atrocious. He used every tactic in the book to try and defeat Bush <hr></blockquote>
and the republicans were ready to do this too if bush lost...they were in fear that bush would win the popular vote but lose the electoral college and had already planned to challenge the results....ain't politics funny....
personally i don't care....clinton in the office, bush in the office....gore in the office....reagan in the office....it is all exactly the same to me....none of these people really control the country and are mostly puppets and (late in life i have realized that) i have no say in what they do or don't do....i live longer not caring....i just think it is funny how the right still talks about clinton...i think it is funny how, a year later, the right still calls gore a loser....get over it and be happy that your man is in office....have some fun...enjoy life....
Gore was due, under Florida law, a manual hand recount, which he wanted to happen. Instead, Florida kept doing machine recounts, not a manual hand recount. Finally, they started to recount the votes by hand, again, which he was due under the law.
That manual recount was never finished, though, as the Supreme Court halted the counting of those votes. They had various machine recounts, but they never finished the total manual recounts. The court ruled that the machine recount was sufficient and the election was over.
As for your assertion that 2,000,000 Bush voters didn't vote after Florida was called, that's ridiculous. You have no proof of this at all and if those people didn't vote, than I guess they are like the 20,000 voters in Florida who were instructed to push two holes to vote for Gore and their votes were thrown out, just plain stupid, right?
Actually, I do find it very humorous that the Republicans still blame Clinton for everything that is wrong with the country. Bush has been in office for over a year now, and for the most part, it hasn't been the success that Republicans wanted. ANWR drilling just went down, the tax cut has been a failure, the war on terrorism is going nowhere fast, the campaign finance reform bill passed, and it looks like we're going to have a major problem in the Middle East with another war against Saddam Hussein (and this time, I doubt the countries over there will want us around.)
<strong>(1)Gore was due, under Florida law, a manual hand recount, which he wanted to happen. Instead, Florida kept doing machine recounts, not a manual hand recount. Finally, they started to recount the votes by hand, again, which he was due under the law.
(2)That manual recount was never finished, though, as the Supreme Court halted the counting of those votes. They had various machine recounts, but they never finished the total manual recounts. The court ruled that the machine recount was sufficient and the election was over.
(3)As for your assertion that 2,000,000 Bush voters didn't vote after Florida was called, that's ridiculous. You have no proof of this at all and if those people didn't vote, than I guess they are like the 20,000 voters in Florida who were instructed to push two holes to vote for Gore and their votes were thrown out, just plain stupid, right?
(4) Actually, I do find it very humorous that the Republicans still blame Clinton for everything that is wrong with the country. Bush has been in office for over a year now, and for the most part, it hasn't been the success that Republicans wanted. ANWR drilling just went down, the tax cut has been a failure, the war on terrorism is going nowhere fast, the campaign finance reform bill passed, and it looks like we're going to have a major problem in the Middle East with another war against Saddam Hussein (and this time, I doubt the countries over there will want us around.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
1. Not really. Though technically Florida law allowed them, Gore was allowed to have the votes counted in only the most hard core democratic counties....with the strategy being to pick up as many votes as possible. The was a direct violation of the Constitution's Equal Protection clause, according to a 7-2 Supreme court opinion. (Remember that the 5-4 was the vote to halt the recount, but 7 of 9 justices said there were problems with the recounts). And Gore DID NOT ask for a statewide hand recount. Had he done this in time, he may have even pulled off a victory....
2. No.....they ruled that there wasn't enough time to find another solution to the problem, thereby handing the election to the certified winner, GWB.
3. 20,000 people voted for the wrong person? Come on, Fran. I hope you realize that the Democrats hired a telemarketing firm to follow up voters on election night. Many were TOLD to contact their Senator if they thought they might have voted for wrong person due to the "deceptive" balllot (which was appoved by a democratic canvassing board by the way). Of course, any reasonable person, or at least the majority of them, would not contact their Senator, they would call the election board. I do think a few may have screwed it up, but 20,000? That's what is ridiculous here, Fran.
You have no basis for this statement whatsoever. As far as my 2,000,000 vote statement, I stand by it. There is documented proof of people leaving the polls once they heard Bush had all but lost the election....in droves, Fran! I know of one account that is confirmed in which a man who had actually done some campaign work for Bush in Florida on local level heard about the loss on his way home from work. You know what he did Fran? He WENT HOME. He figured it was over and WENT HOME. A man who actually campaigned for Bush never voted. Maybe that wasn't the best idea, but I never questioned the media's accuracy either until that night. I think 2,000,000 is VERY probable, knowing that 3/4 of the country's polls were still open when they called it. And yes, it is a an estimate....I admit that. But I think it is quite reasonable considering the millions of people that hadn't voted yet when they saw the election might as well have been over.
4. Well, I find it amazing that no matter how well Bush handles things, liberals still blame HIM for everything. And so we are clear, though I despised Clinton and blamed him for many things, I don't blame him for everything. What I do blame him for is directly lying to the nation, his general immoral conduct, the fact he made decisions by heavily relying on polls (which I strongly oppose in general), his massive tax and spend polices and his willingness to cut our military to the point he did. I think he was a dishonest and corrupt man, though I will admit he did accomplish some things, namely increasing school construction funding, headstart funding, etc.
And why is the campaign finance bill a failure of Bush? He didn't fully support it, but that doesn't mean it is a failure. It doesn't matter anyway because I am of the opinion that at least part of it will be stricken down.
As far as the war on terror, you are just plain wrong there. Nowhere fast? That is insane. Countries all over the world are apprehending terrorists left and right. We have toppled an oppressive regime and, this time, we are staying around to actually help rebuild the country. We also have increased domestic security and apprehended many terrorists ourselves. Yep...going nowhere.
Finally, let me respond to your Iraq comment. One thing I blame Clinton for is not dealing with Saddam. The very moment Saddam refused to let the inspectors in, the US should have notified the coalition that unless Saddam complied, we were going in again....this time to take him out as a war criminal. Fact: Iraq can and will develop weapons of mass destruction under this man who has murdered his own people and poses a direct security risk to the United States. You know, frankly I could give a shit less about the Arab countries in that part of the world who wouldn't want us there.....maybe they should think back to when we literally saved their asses from Saddam by putting the lives of 450,000 US troops at risk in '91.
First of all, manual recounts started about a week after the election, when the Republicans tried to get them stopped, even though it was granted under state law (they were stopped later):
Now, I'd love to see some evidence of those who didn't vote because the election was 'over'. As there were many congressional races, etc. going on, if people didn't get out to vote, they were very foolish. I don't believe the 2,000,000 number at all, but if you can show me some proof, I'd be very interested.
<strong>First of all, manual recounts started about a week after the election, when the Republicans tried to get them stopped, even though it was granted under state law (they were stopped later):
Now, I'd love to see some evidence of those who didn't vote because the election was 'over'. As there were many congressional races, etc. going on, if people didn't get out to vote, they were very foolish. I don't believe the 2,000,000 number at all, but if you can show me some proof, I'd be very interested.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The problem Fran, is that this is the typical percentage that gets thrown out in EVERY presendential election. There is no evidence that everybody that voted twice tried to vote for Gore/Lieberman. And as I said, this ballot was approved by a DEMOCRATIC canvassing board.
In any case, the recounts were highly subjective, with no clear standard, and conducted only in certain places. That is why they were stopped.
Comments
not the media...but he could "convince" some polling places to misplace machines, change counts, etc....we accuse this of other countries, why can't it happen here...not saying it did, but it looks bad when you brother says you will win his state, then suddenly you are losing it, he gets on the phone and you just happen to be winning it again shortly thereafter...
[quote] 3) Gore. Wow. You are amazing. People like you actually believe that Gore was somehow cheated out of the election. The fact was it was Bush who was cheated. <hr></blockquote>
people like you...love it...we disagree, no big deal...why is it that the radial right hates everyone who doesn't think like them? i don't hate the people on the right, just think they are amusing...
[quote] Gore's behavior was atrocious. He used every tactic in the book to try and defeat Bush <hr></blockquote>
and the republicans were ready to do this too if bush lost...they were in fear that bush would win the popular vote but lose the electoral college and had already planned to challenge the results....ain't politics funny....
personally i don't care....clinton in the office, bush in the office....gore in the office....reagan in the office....it is all exactly the same to me....none of these people really control the country and are mostly puppets and (late in life i have realized that) i have no say in what they do or don't do....i live longer not caring....i just think it is funny how the right still talks about clinton...i think it is funny how, a year later, the right still calls gore a loser....get over it and be happy that your man is in office....have some fun...enjoy life....
That manual recount was never finished, though, as the Supreme Court halted the counting of those votes. They had various machine recounts, but they never finished the total manual recounts. The court ruled that the machine recount was sufficient and the election was over.
As for your assertion that 2,000,000 Bush voters didn't vote after Florida was called, that's ridiculous. You have no proof of this at all and if those people didn't vote, than I guess they are like the 20,000 voters in Florida who were instructed to push two holes to vote for Gore and their votes were thrown out, just plain stupid, right?
Actually, I do find it very humorous that the Republicans still blame Clinton for everything that is wrong with the country. Bush has been in office for over a year now, and for the most part, it hasn't been the success that Republicans wanted. ANWR drilling just went down, the tax cut has been a failure, the war on terrorism is going nowhere fast, the campaign finance reform bill passed, and it looks like we're going to have a major problem in the Middle East with another war against Saddam Hussein (and this time, I doubt the countries over there will want us around.)
<strong>(1)Gore was due, under Florida law, a manual hand recount, which he wanted to happen. Instead, Florida kept doing machine recounts, not a manual hand recount. Finally, they started to recount the votes by hand, again, which he was due under the law.
(2)That manual recount was never finished, though, as the Supreme Court halted the counting of those votes. They had various machine recounts, but they never finished the total manual recounts. The court ruled that the machine recount was sufficient and the election was over.
(3)As for your assertion that 2,000,000 Bush voters didn't vote after Florida was called, that's ridiculous. You have no proof of this at all and if those people didn't vote, than I guess they are like the 20,000 voters in Florida who were instructed to push two holes to vote for Gore and their votes were thrown out, just plain stupid, right?
(4) Actually, I do find it very humorous that the Republicans still blame Clinton for everything that is wrong with the country. Bush has been in office for over a year now, and for the most part, it hasn't been the success that Republicans wanted. ANWR drilling just went down, the tax cut has been a failure, the war on terrorism is going nowhere fast, the campaign finance reform bill passed, and it looks like we're going to have a major problem in the Middle East with another war against Saddam Hussein (and this time, I doubt the countries over there will want us around.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
1. Not really. Though technically Florida law allowed them, Gore was allowed to have the votes counted in only the most hard core democratic counties....with the strategy being to pick up as many votes as possible. The was a direct violation of the Constitution's Equal Protection clause, according to a 7-2 Supreme court opinion. (Remember that the 5-4 was the vote to halt the recount, but 7 of 9 justices said there were problems with the recounts). And Gore DID NOT ask for a statewide hand recount. Had he done this in time, he may have even pulled off a victory....
2. No.....they ruled that there wasn't enough time to find another solution to the problem, thereby handing the election to the certified winner, GWB.
3. 20,000 people voted for the wrong person? Come on, Fran. I hope you realize that the Democrats hired a telemarketing firm to follow up voters on election night. Many were TOLD to contact their Senator if they thought they might have voted for wrong person due to the "deceptive" balllot (which was appoved by a democratic canvassing board by the way). Of course, any reasonable person, or at least the majority of them, would not contact their Senator, they would call the election board. I do think a few may have screwed it up, but 20,000? That's what is ridiculous here, Fran.
You have no basis for this statement whatsoever. As far as my 2,000,000 vote statement, I stand by it. There is documented proof of people leaving the polls once they heard Bush had all but lost the election....in droves, Fran! I know of one account that is confirmed in which a man who had actually done some campaign work for Bush in Florida on local level heard about the loss on his way home from work. You know what he did Fran? He WENT HOME. He figured it was over and WENT HOME. A man who actually campaigned for Bush never voted. Maybe that wasn't the best idea, but I never questioned the media's accuracy either until that night. I think 2,000,000 is VERY probable, knowing that 3/4 of the country's polls were still open when they called it. And yes, it is a an estimate....I admit that. But I think it is quite reasonable considering the millions of people that hadn't voted yet when they saw the election might as well have been over.
4. Well, I find it amazing that no matter how well Bush handles things, liberals still blame HIM for everything. And so we are clear, though I despised Clinton and blamed him for many things, I don't blame him for everything. What I do blame him for is directly lying to the nation, his general immoral conduct, the fact he made decisions by heavily relying on polls (which I strongly oppose in general), his massive tax and spend polices and his willingness to cut our military to the point he did. I think he was a dishonest and corrupt man, though I will admit he did accomplish some things, namely increasing school construction funding, headstart funding, etc.
And why is the campaign finance bill a failure of Bush? He didn't fully support it, but that doesn't mean it is a failure. It doesn't matter anyway because I am of the opinion that at least part of it will be stricken down.
As far as the war on terror, you are just plain wrong there. Nowhere fast? That is insane. Countries all over the world are apprehending terrorists left and right. We have toppled an oppressive regime and, this time, we are staying around to actually help rebuild the country. We also have increased domestic security and apprehended many terrorists ourselves. Yep...going nowhere.
Finally, let me respond to your Iraq comment. One thing I blame Clinton for is not dealing with Saddam. The very moment Saddam refused to let the inspectors in, the US should have notified the coalition that unless Saddam complied, we were going in again....this time to take him out as a war criminal. Fact: Iraq can and will develop weapons of mass destruction under this man who has murdered his own people and poses a direct security risk to the United States. You know, frankly I could give a shit less about the Arab countries in that part of the world who wouldn't want us there.....maybe they should think back to when we literally saved their asses from Saddam by putting the lives of 450,000 US troops at risk in '91.
[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]
[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/18/recount.wrap/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/18/recount.wrap/index.html</a>;
Plus to show you that the 20,000 votes thing was not just pulled out of nowhere, here is the original article about it (actually 19,000 votes):
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/09/palm.beach.votes/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/09/palm.beach.votes/index.html</a>;
Now, I'd love to see some evidence of those who didn't vote because the election was 'over'. As there were many congressional races, etc. going on, if people didn't get out to vote, they were very foolish. I don't believe the 2,000,000 number at all, but if you can show me some proof, I'd be very interested.
<strong>First of all, manual recounts started about a week after the election, when the Republicans tried to get them stopped, even though it was granted under state law (they were stopped later):
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/18/recount.wrap/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/18/recount.wrap/index.html</a>;
Plus to show you that the 20,000 votes thing was not just pulled out of nowhere, here is the original article about it (actually 19,000 votes):
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/09/palm.beach.votes/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/09/palm.beach.votes/index.html</a>;
Now, I'd love to see some evidence of those who didn't vote because the election was 'over'. As there were many congressional races, etc. going on, if people didn't get out to vote, they were very foolish. I don't believe the 2,000,000 number at all, but if you can show me some proof, I'd be very interested.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The problem Fran, is that this is the typical percentage that gets thrown out in EVERY presendential election. There is no evidence that everybody that voted twice tried to vote for Gore/Lieberman. And as I said, this ballot was approved by a DEMOCRATIC canvassing board.
In any case, the recounts were highly subjective, with no clear standard, and conducted only in certain places. That is why they were stopped.