I can replicate the issue every time with my phone in a strong 3G reception area. If I hold the phone in my left hand with the pad of my palm below my thumb on the bridge area, my signal slowly goes from five bars to none, then "Searching ..." and then "No Signal." I sincerely hope this is primarily a software issue, although it's hard for me to believe. If not, I may avail my self of the 30-day return policy and either try another phone or wait for iPhone 4a or 5.
Either you still don't understand the difference between full strength and full bars or you are you backpedaling, yet again. Have a little self respect and admit that you didn't understand Park Seward's comment then move on. It's not that hard.
Did you miss what the iPhone manual says? The more bars, the stronger the signal.
The iPhone actually shows this perfectly well with the progressive downgrade of bars represented. When the finger touches the antenna insulator, the phone will go from 5 bars to 3 bars to 1 bar to no bars over a period of time.
The iOS is AVERAGING the signal strength, meaning that it takes into account interference and periodic strength degradation and represents the cumulative value in the number of bars.
It's why the bars don't go from 5 to 0 in one or two seconds but rather takes time.
3gpro, you are misunderstanding the meaning (or lack of meaning) represented by the bars on a cell phone. Cell phone technology (or specifically) GSM, is a multi-path technology, meaning it will receive various signals at different sources (towers), refracted off of surfaces, and generally being bombarded from all directions with a cell signal. The strongest signal, may not be the most usable one, but the bars will only reflect the strongest signal being received, even though your phone may not be using that specific signal.
Just because you are showing 5 bars does not mean you are using a full strength signal (strength being relative). It doesn't take into account the signal to noise ratio, mean you could have an very powerful signal, that was far too noisy to be useful.
Think if it as piping a 500 watt sound out of a 5 watt capable speaker, or piping a 5 watt sound out of a 500 watt capable speaker. Signal to noise. The 5 watt sound would sound perfectly clear, and the 500 watt sound would sound like crap. Bad analogy, but you get the idea.
Signal Strength just doesn't mean a whole lot for a cell phone. It's the quality of the signal that's important.
Actually, the phone takes into account signal quality and interference with an averaging algorithm when it comes to displaying the signal strength as bars.
If you have a consistent 5 bar reception, the phone is telling you that you have better reception than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1 or no bars. ON AVERAGE.
There are variations, of course, and the larger variations in signal strength and quality you have, the lower bars you will have.
For example, if you are in an area with high noise to signal ratio, there are times when you will have good signal strength and quality and other times when it is bad signal quality. However the phone averages this out and displays 3 bars. Or 2 bars.
I said this earlier... it also depends on where you are. In my home area, I can reproduce the problem with covering the antenna gap, but at my parents house, I can cover the gap all day long and still get a perfectly good signal and fast loading web pages.
Also, in Portland Maine, I saw no issues with covering the antenna.
Both were done with 3G on and Wifi off.
Maybe the people who aren't having the problem do not have "flawless" phones, but instead live in an area that is like my parent's area.
There is definitely something weird going on, but I think it may be possible to fix with a software update. Perhaps there's an integer screwed up somewhere that is telling the phone to do what it shouldn't be. I'm not a software engineer, so I'm only making guesses here. I'm also not saying that my results are the definitive answer either. It's just an observation.
Has anyone else experienced this on their iPhone 4?
Did you miss what the iPhone manual says? The more bars, the stronger the signal.
The iPhone actually shows this perfectly well with the progressive downgrade of bars represented. When the finger touches the antenna insulator, the phone will go from 5 bars to 3 bars to 1 bar to no bars over a period of time.
The iOS is AVERAGING the signal strength, meaning that it takes into account interference and periodic strength degradation and represents the cumulative value in the number of bars.
It's why the bars don't go from 5 to 0 in one or two seconds but rather takes time.
Wow! So you're still saying that 5 bars equates to the maximum Decibel level one can achieve on the device and not simply a more powerful signal than less bars. Fricken amazing!
Pro Tip: You could get some respect by letting go your hubris and simply staing...
"My bad, Park Seward. I was looking at it in a completely diffferent way. You're right, there is no way to tell what full strength is based on the bars shown, all we deduce is 5 bars represents a more powerful signal than less than 5 bars."
Instead you're just reinforce what everyone already thinks about you. If you can't admit being wrong online how can you do it in your every day life. Not good, g3pro, not good.
In dead zones, despite close proximity to a tower, the phone will register zero bars. There is no "5 bars but no call quality" non-sense.
Are you actually going to tell me that 1 bar is better than 5 bars?
And please, please don't get into non-sense about analog transmission, ok? Networks these days are digital only. There is no need to make comparisons to the Vietnam war and analog radios.
Wow! So you're still saying that 5 bars equates to the maximum Decibel level one can achieve on the device and not simply a more powerful signal than less bars. Fricken amazing!
Pro Tip: You could get some respect by letting go your hubris and simply staing...
"My bad, Park Seward. I was looking at it in a completely diffferent way. You're right, there is no way to tell what full strength is based on the bars shown, all we deduce is 5 bars represents a more powerful signal than less than 5 bars."
Instead you're just reinforce what everyone already thinks about you. If you can't admit being wrong online how can you do it in your every day life. Not good, g3pro, not good.
If we all live in bizarro world, then yes, 1 bar is better for signal strength than 5 bars.
Hey solipsism, you are the one who is wrong about claiming 1 bar is better than 5 bars for signal strength. You are a hypocrite.
I said this earlier... it also depends on where you are. In my home area, I can reproduce the problem with covering the antenna gap, but at my parents house, I can cover the gap all day long and still get a perfectly good signal and fast loading web pages.
Also, in Portland Maine, I saw no issues with covering the antenna.
Both were done with 3G on and Wifi off.
Maybe the people who aren't having the problem do not have "flawless" phones, but instead live in an area that is like my parent's area.
There is definitely something weird going on, but I think it may be possible to fix with a software update. Perhaps there's an integer screwed up somewhere that is telling the phone to do what it shouldn't be. I'm not a software engineer, so I'm only making guesses here. I'm also not saying that my results are the definitive answer either. It's just an observation.
Has anyone else experienced this on their iPhone 4?
That looks more and more like a TriQuint chip issue if it really is just a 3G issue and with a certain operating band or bands.
I can't verify what operating bands I was on these last couple days or other specific information relative to a tower, but I have traveled quite a bit in my area (even going into areas with GPRS of all things) that I think it's likely I have moved into 3G spectrum that is causing yours and other people's issues.
For that reason, I would have the device replaced. Production issues are not uncommon with CE or any other mass produced item but that doesn't mean you have to deal with the issues.
PS: While I doubt it, perhaps the Chicken Littles can now cool it with it being a devastating design flaw.
Ah, yes, I thank you, I see it now. The iPhone 4 is not defective. It merely has inferior reception. Well, I see now why everyone is pissed off at Apple.
If we all live in bizarro world, then yes, 1 bar is better for signal strength than 5 bars.
Hey solipsism, you are the one who is wrong about claiming 1 bar is better than 5 bars for signal strength. You are a hypocrite.
It's like you don't even realize there is a history of everything we've written.
Your comment...
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro
... you don't need to be under a tower to know you have full strength on the phone. That's what 5 bars means on an iPhone 4...
His reply which you didn't understand...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park Seward
From the iPhone manual, "The more bars, the stronger the signal."
Where did you read that five bars means "full strength"?
So, asking Park Seward's question yet again, where did you read that 5 bars means full strength? Do I really need to post every signal time you've tried to backpedal out of your comment?
The science of this is fairly easy to understand. When you touch a naked antenna you change its impedance (its natural resistance to the flow of electrons) and resonant frequency (think tuning fork). This can have unpredictable results. This is why almost all consumer electronics have insulated antennas. The insulation protects the tuning of the antenna. In some radio systems, under specific conditions touching the antenna can cause the radio to stop working completely and can even eventually damage the receiver.
Apple just made things a little difficult for themselves by designing an antenna that you normally touch.
In the case of the iPhone 4, the gradual drop in signal can be explained by the digital tuners inability, (through reasons of hardware or software) to correctly adjust to the change caused by making physical contact with a particular part of the antenna.
When you touch an antenna, you create a shift in impedance at the point of contact. This creates standing waves. Think of a river rapid where the river changes in shape. large, permanent waves can form around boulders or anything else that resists the flow of water. Your finger has a different resistance than the antenna on the iPhone, therefore it creates a point of electrical resistance where standing waves can form, and this can seriously mess with the iPhones tuning.
Basically, these standing waves cause electrical energy to be reflected back into the transmitter, and prevent electrical energy from reaching the receiver. This also changes the resonant frequency of the antenna and causes a slight shift in tuning.
Radios tune by filtering out all other frequencies. iPhones are designed to work on several frequencies (850, 900, 1800, 1900, 2100) MHz. Touching the antenna will affect it differently at different frequencies which explains why some people see the problem go away when disabling 3g or when they can't replicate the problem at all.
Different people will have different electrical properties so the problem may affect some more than others. Another factor is the iPhone itself. No two objects are the same. A slight difference in the antenna's natural resonance and impedance could explain why some phones are affected more than others.
No, I don't think Apple is going to do anything about it. They have a long history of not doing anything about defective devices...
...Apple has a long history of (mis)behaving this way.
Sorry. If I am proven wrong, please remind me. Nothing would please me more.
If your assessment was correct, Apple wouldn't consistently for several years now lead all computer manufacturers for customer service in things like Consumer Reports. The surveys don't lie. It's not even close.
Not to mention, I've had a few issues over the years and never had anything close to a lack of response. In fact, a close friend of mine had a Macbook that was 6 months out of warranty but started having issues with the screen going dim. I looked up and found that others with her model had some similar issues, so she called Apple. Even though there wasn't a recall and she was well out of the warranty period, they sent her a prepaid postage box, she shipped it back to them and a week later they returned the laptop to her fixed. The logic board was bad and they replaced it for her free.
So no, Apple does not have a "long history of behaving this way."
Interesting, I just did a little experiment with my 3GS.
When I handle the phone without my case on (incase slider) the signal strength drops 2-3 bars quite quickly. But if i pick it up exactly the same with the case on its unaffected. The results were 100% repeatable.
Very interesting... Even touching the bezel on the 3GS has such a dramatic effect. Clearly, Apple isn't insulating their antennas properly. This could explain a lot of the issues people are having with iPhone reception in general. By using lots of metal and glass parts in the construction of their phones, Apple's phones clearly have different characteristics when compared to other plastic phones.
It makes perfect sense because they field test their phones with protective cases on to hide their appearance. This would have the unintended consequence of insulating the antenna and protecting it from things like standing waves and other tuning/impedance issues. They probably have no real world data for this because they never test their phones naked.
1) More bars means stronger signal (more signal strength)
2) 2 bars is more than 1 bar. 3 is more than 2 or 1. 4 is more than 3 or 2 or 1. 5 is more than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1.
3) There is a maximum display of 5 bars. There is no 6th bar. Or 7th or 8th or 9th or 10th bar. It stops at 5 bars.
4) There is a minimum display of zero bars. There is no negative 1 bar or negative 2 bars, etc.
5) Maximum is the point at which the number is greatest. Minimum is the point at which the number is least.
Ergo, the maximum signal strength displayed on the iPhone is 5 bars.
This is a definition. This is self-evident. This is so plainly simple.
Do you understand what is written above?
You're almost there. Now show us where Park Seward is wrong and where 5 bars, as you stated, means full strength instead of merely stronger than x or for once admit you made a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
We need links please.
If there is a recall or SW fix will you man up admit there is no design flaw and that you been acting like a bunny these last few days. It would be at least a little understandable if you actually waited in lines for hours hut to receive a dud unit, bit you don't even own one. Have you even seen one in person yet?
You're almost there. Now show us where Park Seward is wrong and where 5 bars, as you stated, means full strength instead of merely stronger than x or for once admit you made a mistake.
You didn't read it if you're asking that question.
5 bars is MAXIMUM STRENGTH aka FULL STRENGTH aka THE BEST RELATIVE STRENGTH FOR THE PHONE.
Not sure if this had been made clear, the bars don't seem to be linked to the quality of the call. I was all caught up on the bars meaning something, but in the end they are just a representation of what is going on in the phone, which might be a faulty indication.
To test, I made a series of calls and triggered the bar loss effect with my finger. In all of the trials, the call quality did not reduce any noticeable amount.
Based on this, I suspect that if the phone is adapting to a new signal configuration, that the signal strength bar might not be switching to the new configuration. (Guessing here). If this turns out to be true, this might be a software issue after all.
Now, I am having the proximity sensor issue as well, sure there will be a thread on this soon as well.
Comments
You guys and gals should really watch these videos... I'm Walt Mossberg, and you should watch me.... and... SHUT UP!
http://www.youtube.com/user/mrhogg#p/a/u/1/k6IHZBXmixY
Either you still don't understand the difference between full strength and full bars or you are you backpedaling, yet again. Have a little self respect and admit that you didn't understand Park Seward's comment then move on. It's not that hard.
Did you miss what the iPhone manual says? The more bars, the stronger the signal.
The iPhone actually shows this perfectly well with the progressive downgrade of bars represented. When the finger touches the antenna insulator, the phone will go from 5 bars to 3 bars to 1 bar to no bars over a period of time.
The iOS is AVERAGING the signal strength, meaning that it takes into account interference and periodic strength degradation and represents the cumulative value in the number of bars.
It's why the bars don't go from 5 to 0 in one or two seconds but rather takes time.
3gpro, you are misunderstanding the meaning (or lack of meaning) represented by the bars on a cell phone. Cell phone technology (or specifically) GSM, is a multi-path technology, meaning it will receive various signals at different sources (towers), refracted off of surfaces, and generally being bombarded from all directions with a cell signal. The strongest signal, may not be the most usable one, but the bars will only reflect the strongest signal being received, even though your phone may not be using that specific signal.
Just because you are showing 5 bars does not mean you are using a full strength signal (strength being relative). It doesn't take into account the signal to noise ratio, mean you could have an very powerful signal, that was far too noisy to be useful.
Think if it as piping a 500 watt sound out of a 5 watt capable speaker, or piping a 5 watt sound out of a 500 watt capable speaker. Signal to noise. The 5 watt sound would sound perfectly clear, and the 500 watt sound would sound like crap. Bad analogy, but you get the idea.
Signal Strength just doesn't mean a whole lot for a cell phone. It's the quality of the signal that's important.
Actually, the phone takes into account signal quality and interference with an averaging algorithm when it comes to displaying the signal strength as bars.
If you have a consistent 5 bar reception, the phone is telling you that you have better reception than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1 or no bars. ON AVERAGE.
There are variations, of course, and the larger variations in signal strength and quality you have, the lower bars you will have.
For example, if you are in an area with high noise to signal ratio, there are times when you will have good signal strength and quality and other times when it is bad signal quality. However the phone averages this out and displays 3 bars. Or 2 bars.
Also, in Portland Maine, I saw no issues with covering the antenna.
Both were done with 3G on and Wifi off.
Maybe the people who aren't having the problem do not have "flawless" phones, but instead live in an area that is like my parent's area.
There is definitely something weird going on, but I think it may be possible to fix with a software update. Perhaps there's an integer screwed up somewhere that is telling the phone to do what it shouldn't be. I'm not a software engineer, so I'm only making guesses here. I'm also not saying that my results are the definitive answer either. It's just an observation.
Has anyone else experienced this on their iPhone 4?
Did you miss what the iPhone manual says? The more bars, the stronger the signal.
The iPhone actually shows this perfectly well with the progressive downgrade of bars represented. When the finger touches the antenna insulator, the phone will go from 5 bars to 3 bars to 1 bar to no bars over a period of time.
The iOS is AVERAGING the signal strength, meaning that it takes into account interference and periodic strength degradation and represents the cumulative value in the number of bars.
It's why the bars don't go from 5 to 0 in one or two seconds but rather takes time.
Wow! So you're still saying that 5 bars equates to the maximum Decibel level one can achieve on the device and not simply a more powerful signal than less bars. Fricken amazing!
Pro Tip: You could get some respect by letting go your hubris and simply staing...Instead you're just reinforce what everyone already thinks about you. If you can't admit being wrong online how can you do it in your every day life. Not good, g3pro, not good.
Are you actually going to tell me that 1 bar is better than 5 bars?
And please, please don't get into non-sense about analog transmission, ok? Networks these days are digital only. There is no need to make comparisons to the Vietnam war and analog radios.
Wow! So you're still saying that 5 bars equates to the maximum Decibel level one can achieve on the device and not simply a more powerful signal than less bars. Fricken amazing!
Pro Tip: You could get some respect by letting go your hubris and simply staing...Instead you're just reinforce what everyone already thinks about you. If you can't admit being wrong online how can you do it in your every day life. Not good, g3pro, not good.
If we all live in bizarro world, then yes, 1 bar is better for signal strength than 5 bars.
Hey solipsism, you are the one who is wrong about claiming 1 bar is better than 5 bars for signal strength. You are a hypocrite.
I said this earlier... it also depends on where you are. In my home area, I can reproduce the problem with covering the antenna gap, but at my parents house, I can cover the gap all day long and still get a perfectly good signal and fast loading web pages.
Also, in Portland Maine, I saw no issues with covering the antenna.
Both were done with 3G on and Wifi off.
Maybe the people who aren't having the problem do not have "flawless" phones, but instead live in an area that is like my parent's area.
There is definitely something weird going on, but I think it may be possible to fix with a software update. Perhaps there's an integer screwed up somewhere that is telling the phone to do what it shouldn't be. I'm not a software engineer, so I'm only making guesses here. I'm also not saying that my results are the definitive answer either. It's just an observation.
Has anyone else experienced this on their iPhone 4?
That looks more and more like a TriQuint chip issue if it really is just a 3G issue and with a certain operating band or bands.
I can't verify what operating bands I was on these last couple days or other specific information relative to a tower, but I have traveled quite a bit in my area (even going into areas with GPRS of all things) that I think it's likely I have moved into 3G spectrum that is causing yours and other people's issues.
For that reason, I would have the device replaced. Production issues are not uncommon with CE or any other mass produced item but that doesn't mean you have to deal with the issues.
PS: While I doubt it, perhaps the Chicken Littles can now cool it with it being a devastating design flaw.
And how do we know he's not an android fan faking the results? It's youtube, not a reputable source.
Oh give me a break.
Ah, yes, I thank you, I see it now. The iPhone 4 is not defective. It merely has inferior reception. Well, I see now why everyone is pissed off at Apple.
You need help.
If we all live in bizarro world, then yes, 1 bar is better for signal strength than 5 bars.
Hey solipsism, you are the one who is wrong about claiming 1 bar is better than 5 bars for signal strength. You are a hypocrite.
It's like you don't even realize there is a history of everything we've written.
Your comment...
... you don't need to be under a tower to know you have full strength on the phone. That's what 5 bars means on an iPhone 4...
His reply which you didn't understand...
From the iPhone manual, "The more bars, the stronger the signal."
Where did you read that five bars means "full strength"?
So, asking Park Seward's question yet again, where did you read that 5 bars means full strength?
Apple just made things a little difficult for themselves by designing an antenna that you normally touch.
In the case of the iPhone 4, the gradual drop in signal can be explained by the digital tuners inability, (through reasons of hardware or software) to correctly adjust to the change caused by making physical contact with a particular part of the antenna.
When you touch an antenna, you create a shift in impedance at the point of contact. This creates standing waves. Think of a river rapid where the river changes in shape. large, permanent waves can form around boulders or anything else that resists the flow of water. Your finger has a different resistance than the antenna on the iPhone, therefore it creates a point of electrical resistance where standing waves can form, and this can seriously mess with the iPhones tuning.
Basically, these standing waves cause electrical energy to be reflected back into the transmitter, and prevent electrical energy from reaching the receiver. This also changes the resonant frequency of the antenna and causes a slight shift in tuning.
Radios tune by filtering out all other frequencies. iPhones are designed to work on several frequencies (850, 900, 1800, 1900, 2100) MHz. Touching the antenna will affect it differently at different frequencies which explains why some people see the problem go away when disabling 3g or when they can't replicate the problem at all.
Different people will have different electrical properties so the problem may affect some more than others. Another factor is the iPhone itself. No two objects are the same. A slight difference in the antenna's natural resonance and impedance could explain why some phones are affected more than others.
His reply which you didn't understand...
So, asking Park Seward's question yet again, where did you read that 5 bars means full strength?
Let me spell it out for you.
1) More bars means stronger signal (more signal strength)
2) 2 bars is more than 1 bar. 3 is more than 2 or 1. 4 is more than 3 or 2 or 1. 5 is more than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1.
3) There is a maximum display of 5 bars. There is no 6th bar. Or 7th or 8th or 9th or 10th bar. It stops at 5 bars.
4) There is a minimum display of zero bars. There is no negative 1 bar or negative 2 bars, etc.
5) Maximum is the point at which the number is greatest. Minimum is the point at which the number is least.
Ergo, the maximum signal strength displayed on the iPhone is 5 bars.
This is a definition. This is self-evident. This is so plainly simple.
Do you understand what is written above?
If you search for "iPhone 4" in Google News search the first article I get is from the Daily Mail in the UK.
It leads to a dead link but the preview in Google says this...
Apple iPhone 4 may be recalled, says Steve Jobs
Daily Mail - 4 hours ago
The much-vaunted new iPhone 4 may be recalled, Apple boss Steve Jobs revealed last night. Posting a message on the social networking site ...
We need links please.
No, I don't think Apple is going to do anything about it. They have a long history of not doing anything about defective devices...
...Apple has a long history of (mis)behaving this way.
Sorry. If I am proven wrong, please remind me. Nothing would please me more.
If your assessment was correct, Apple wouldn't consistently for several years now lead all computer manufacturers for customer service in things like Consumer Reports. The surveys don't lie. It's not even close.
Not to mention, I've had a few issues over the years and never had anything close to a lack of response. In fact, a close friend of mine had a Macbook that was 6 months out of warranty but started having issues with the screen going dim. I looked up and found that others with her model had some similar issues, so she called Apple. Even though there wasn't a recall and she was well out of the warranty period, they sent her a prepaid postage box, she shipped it back to them and a week later they returned the laptop to her fixed. The logic board was bad and they replaced it for her free.
So no, Apple does not have a "long history of behaving this way."
When I handle the phone without my case on (incase slider) the signal strength drops 2-3 bars quite quickly. But if i pick it up exactly the same with the case on its unaffected. The results were 100% repeatable.
Very interesting... Even touching the bezel on the 3GS has such a dramatic effect. Clearly, Apple isn't insulating their antennas properly. This could explain a lot of the issues people are having with iPhone reception in general. By using lots of metal and glass parts in the construction of their phones, Apple's phones clearly have different characteristics when compared to other plastic phones.
It makes perfect sense because they field test their phones with protective cases on to hide their appearance. This would have the unintended consequence of insulating the antenna and protecting it from things like standing waves and other tuning/impedance issues. They probably have no real world data for this because they never test their phones naked.
Let me spell it out for you.
1) More bars means stronger signal (more signal strength)
2) 2 bars is more than 1 bar. 3 is more than 2 or 1. 4 is more than 3 or 2 or 1. 5 is more than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1.
3) There is a maximum display of 5 bars. There is no 6th bar. Or 7th or 8th or 9th or 10th bar. It stops at 5 bars.
4) There is a minimum display of zero bars. There is no negative 1 bar or negative 2 bars, etc.
5) Maximum is the point at which the number is greatest. Minimum is the point at which the number is least.
Ergo, the maximum signal strength displayed on the iPhone is 5 bars.
This is a definition. This is self-evident. This is so plainly simple.
Do you understand what is written above?
You're almost there. Now show us where Park Seward is wrong and where 5 bars, as you stated, means full strength instead of merely stronger than x or for once admit you made a mistake.
We need links please.
If there is a recall or SW fix will you man up admit there is no design flaw and that you been acting like a bunny these last few days. It would be at least a little understandable if you actually waited in lines for hours hut to receive a dud unit, bit you don't even own one. Have you even seen one in person yet?
You're almost there. Now show us where Park Seward is wrong and where 5 bars, as you stated, means full strength instead of merely stronger than x or for once admit you made a mistake.
You didn't read it if you're asking that question.
5 bars is MAXIMUM STRENGTH aka FULL STRENGTH aka THE BEST RELATIVE STRENGTH FOR THE PHONE.
This is not difficult to understand.
To test, I made a series of calls and triggered the bar loss effect with my finger. In all of the trials, the call quality did not reduce any noticeable amount.
Based on this, I suspect that if the phone is adapting to a new signal configuration, that the signal strength bar might not be switching to the new configuration. (Guessing here). If this turns out to be true, this might be a software issue after all.
Now, I am having the proximity sensor issue as well, sure there will be a thread on this soon as well.
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...ning-properly/