If indeed the return rate is low and the call volume is low then there really isn't a huge problem. If people don't ask for problem remediation, there is no documented problem.
Nonsense. Given the clear identification and documentation of the issue, this means that there is a latent problem that is a threat to profitability and to the value of corporate Goodwill. 0.55% (if correct) in the first 3 weeks for a single-issue is a red-flag and not something to ignore. Painting this as a low rate is incorrect; it is a high rate.
Apple is correct to head off law-suits and damage to the brand by offering rebates and a free work-around. Cost of this is very low compared to the potential of the alternative. I believe that previous class-action against them taught them a lesson but perhaps I am underestimating Jobs arrogance.
I just wanted to make a general comment that trolling in these forums has become unbearable, the sheer idiocy and doggedness of the trolls is insufferable. I think I might have to take a break because I come to these forums to be informed and relax not to have some morons jangle my nerves, I get that during my work week thank you very much.
Nonsense. Given the clear identification and documentation of the issue, this means that there is a latent problem that is a threat to profitability and to the value of corporate Goodwill. 0.55% (if correct) in the first 3 weeks for a single-issue is a red-flag and not something to ignore. Painting this as a low rate is incorrect; it is a high rate.
We don't have any comparative information on that, so let's talk about the data point where we DO have comparative information.
Apple reports that less than 2% of iPhone 4 handsets have been returned vs. over 6% of 3GS (I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was about 3:1.
The 3GS must have been an incredible failure for your point to make any sense. Was it?
Listen pal, you are one rude SOB. Why don't you just get a life and calm down. Anytime anyone says anything that might be construed as a criticism you practically have a shit herrmorage. A criticism is a just a criticism. And anyone in business knows not every unsatisfied customer calls. It's biz 101 dude.
Take a chill pill and stop being damn rude.
I'm with you on this. Unfortunately these boards are going downhill and the likes of JRagosta are one of the causes. We used to be able to have some interesting discussions based on hypothesis (that can't always be backed up by hard data) and it was good. People aired their opinions and there were some interesting ideas came up.
Now, people see something they don't like and reply in such an incredibly rude way. Honestly, I think people on the internet really do need to consider, "would I reply this way if I were in the same room as the guy?" I have to admit that if someone spoke to me in the way they reply on here, they'd get a decent smack.
He brags on stage that Apple owned and bought a $100 million dollar antenna testing facility during iphone design. Consumer reports used a $10,000 testing facility and found the problem immediately. Steve says they did thousands of tests, and it was only on a small percentage, and that they should have said something during the keynote.
OF COURSE THEY KNEW IN ADVANCE, and damn right that engineer told him?
You can't tell people you had a $100million dollar testing facility but expect them to believe you were so incompetent that you NEVER ONCE EVER SAW THIS ANTENNA ISSUE in advance, because IF THAT IS THE TRUTH?Then Apple doesn't belong in the cellphone business.
And anyway steve jobs refuted that when he said, we knew in advance that all smart phones do this?obviously it was discussed quite a bit BEFORE the launch and they were hoping consumers wouldn't figure it out?
Go hang out where someone actually cares what you have to say troll - this issue is now put to rest. When in a weak signal area, don't touch a 1/16" area of the phone - just like, don't stick your finger in the electrical wall outlet (oops, the house must be defective).
Nonsense. Given the clear identification and documentation of the issue, this means that there is a latent problem that is a threat to profitability and to the value of corporate Goodwill. 0.55% (if correct) in the first 3 weeks for a single-issue is a red-flag and not something to ignore. Painting this as a low rate is incorrect; it is a high rate.
Apple is correct to head off law-suits and damage to the brand by offering rebates and a free work-around. Cost of this is very low compared to the potential of the alternative. I believe that previous class-action against them taught them a lesson but perhaps I am underestimating Jobs arrogance.
Excuse me troll, but Jobs made it quite clear that ANY issue related to the antenna OR reception was included and most surely many of those calls would be related to ATT issues and not the phone - they were being very conservative!
Your brain may be too small to grasp the entire story such as lower return rates, the highest satisfaction rates by far, competitive product performance, etc.
Since I am not an easily swayed idiot, like the vast majority in this country, I normally rely on credible word of mouth for product recommendations, and not the biased bleatings of bloggers and haters with huge axes to grind. I currently have an iPhone 3GS, which I like quite a bit, but if I am going to upgrade in the next six months or so, I will get an iPhone 4. Where I live, both Verizon and ATT cell coverage suck, which is why I keep my copper land line. I am carrier agnostic, and if any of them meet all my needs, within reason, the differentiator will be the handset, and in this case, as far as I am concerned, the iPhone wins. I'm not sorry to antagonize all the Apple-haters out there, and think that providing grist for their whining mill is a good thing, given that it keeps them from molesting small furry mammals.
We don't have any comparative information on that, so let's talk about the data point where we DO have comparative information.
Apple reports that less than 2% of iPhone 4 handsets have been returned vs. over 6% of 3GS (I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was about 3:1.
The 3GS must have been an incredible failure for your point to make any sense. Was it?
No --- you are misinterpreting. Some people are saying the antenna problem is not a serious issue and are parroting some numbers to support the point. I am just saying, don't take those numbers at face value; explore and extrapolate, add values to find some meaning in them.
I say that the numbers quoted support the opposite conclusion: the antenna problem is a big deal.
I am not saying the i4 or the i3GS are failures. This problem is truly a problem. The reason I translate things to dollars is because that is what management, especially executive management, always reduce issues to.
Now... so, 1.7% return rate in the first 3 weeks for the i4 vs 6% for the i3GS over the same period.
That's good and indicative of overall excellent engineering. Don't get me wrong; I like my iPhone but I take issue with the idea that the antenna isn't a serious and preventable design flaw. Note that the 1.7 and 6% figures are for all returns, covering all issues.
Now, what percentage of the returns are for this one problem? At a 0.55% complaint rate with say, half of the complainers returning the phone then this one problem is the cause of about 15% of the returns in the first 3 weeks. Pretty sick for one design flaw.
This should be a red-flag for management. Questions to be asked internally at this point are: is the rate increasing? what are our carrier partners saying and experiencing? what do our engineers say? is this going to go away? can we ignore it like the battery life issue?
Unlike batteries, there is no opportunity for 3rd party devices to provide relief and to create an associated profit sector. You can't plug in an external antenna array that will alleviate the problem... you can tell them to buy bumpers but the response to that has been overwhelmingly negative.
Obviously the answers to these and other questions were such that Apple realized the seriousness (er.. potential cost) and that it was not a non-issue. Hence today's press conference and offer to support customers.
The return to complaint ratio is now likely to reduce because of the rebate and bumper offer. This will please the telco partners.
I would not be surprised to hear that Apple was getting feedback from carriers outside the US that they did not want to introduce the i4 until the antenna issue was resolved.
Now, now... you don't have to resort to name calling just because you have trouble reading and understanding. Didn't your mama raise you right?
So, as I have said the i4 is a great device. Consumer Reports said the same thing. So have other testing labs. But they all agree the antenna problem is real and unacceptable. Apple shouldn't be crucified and the device isn't a failure but the issue needed to be addressed. This isn't just a response to media pressure.
Now here's the rub: I bought a car that is just great; I love it, but the tires go completely flat in the worst possible situations. I guess its due to the climate I live in and the fact that I feel compelled to hold on to the steering wheel in a normal manner. It's OK though: the GPS works great (even though I can't go anywhere in my neighborhood), and the screen resolution on the in-dash display is fantastic. Plus the sound is excellent. So, I'll push my car into a better neighborhood while listening to that great sound. Boy, am I happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange
Excuse me troll, but Jobs made it quite clear that ANY issue related to the antenna OR reception was included and most surely many of those calls would be related to ATT issues and not the phone - they were being very conservative!
Your brain may be too small to grasp the entire story such as lower return rates, the highest satisfaction rates by far, competitive product performance, etc.
He brags on stage that Apple owned and bought a $100 million dollar antenna testing facility during iphone design. Consumer reports used a $10,000 testing facility and found the problem immediately. Steve says they did thousands of tests, and it was only on a small percentage, and that they should have said something during the keynote.
OF COURSE THEY KNEW IN ADVANCE, and damn right that engineer told him…
You can't tell people you had a $100million dollar testing facility but expect them to believe you were so incompetent that you NEVER ONCE EVER SAW THIS ANTENNA ISSUE in advance, because IF THAT IS THE TRUTH…Then Apple doesn't belong in the cellphone business.
And anyway steve jobs refuted that when he said, we knew in advance that all smart phones do this…obviously it was discussed quite a bit BEFORE the launch and they were hoping consumers wouldn't figure it out…
You are in need of serious help. You should be happy Steve Jobs was driven enough to lead Apple to create the iPhone in the first place...otherwise, today we would be awash in a sea of crappy phones.
You were the one who "speculated" that the number of calls to Apple Care (0.55%) represents a number of "affected" customers ten times higher (5.5%).
I was using your "conservative" extrapolation method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkybrain
So, say a .55% call rate indicates that 5.5% of users are adversely affected in a noticeable way. That's a LOT of people and phones.
...Again, IMHO, I think that the above estimates are conservative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkybrain
The X-Box comparison is nonsense. It is indicative of a total failure of the production QA process so your extrapolation is non-valid as well. That was my point: the X-Box issue is a red-herring and has no place in the evaluation of the iPhone antenna issue. BTW given the 52.4% failure return rate of the X-Box, it is likely that 100% of the devices have a hardware production defect... after 100% you can't go any more.
Let's put it another way: don't use the disastrous failure of another device (a totally incomparable device and situation as well) as justification for a serious design flaw in the iPhone. Is that clear enough?
Now, now... you don't have to resort to name calling just because you have trouble reading and understanding. Didn't your mama raise you right?
So, as I have said the i4 is a great device. Consumer Reports said the same thing. So have other testing labs. But they all agree the antenna problem is real and unacceptable. Apple shouldn't be crucified and the device isn't a failure but the issue needed to be addressed. This isn't just a response to media pressure.
Now here's the rub: I bought a car that is just great; I love it, but the tires go completely flat in the worst possible situations. I guess its due to the climate I live in and the fact that I feel compelled to hold on to the steering wheel in a normal manner. It's OK though: the GPS works great (even though I can't go anywhere in my neighborhood), and the screen resolution on the in-dash display is fantastic. Plus the sound is excellent. So, I'll push my car into a better neighborhood while listening to that great sound. Boy, am I happy.
Go hang out where someone actually cares what you have to say troll - this issue is now put to rest. When in a weak signal area, don't touch a 1/16" area of the phone - just like, don't stick your finger in the electrical wall outlet (oops, the house must be defective).
Typical Apple apologist: you declare anyone a troll if he or she calls shennanigans re:Apple's products or statements from Apple about issues.
Quite frankly, Apple is feeling the heat from having a customer base that extends far beyond those who have been encultured into the Apple way. A broader base means having to change the way support issues are handled.
Again: Apple realized what was happening and responded accordingly. They are dealing with a serious problem in an otherwise excellent product.
Now, who is going to be dumb enough to buy an i4 when an i4.01 is being readied for the production line?
You are in need of serious help. All smart phones show this effect to some degree, didn't you listen to what he said....I am tired of all the crying, spoiled babies who spout off when they occasionally drop a call, or have to wait an hour because of a delayed flight, etc. etc...no technology is perfect, but what we have is pretty amzing these days, you should be thankful.
how many didn't bother to call? It's well known the numbers of people who actually call to complain about issue such as this is much lower than those who actually have it.
A whole bunch of pomp and ceremony, our phone is as bad as their phone's reception, blah blah blah.
The reason Apple was crucified in the media is because look at it, the we're the king of the castle and yer the dirty rascal kind of thing you get from the apple crowd (frig I'm in it I can see it) makes it even more a target.
The more smug the grins, the more people want to wipe them. Issue or no issue, that all it really is.
You do not represent the people I know who use Apple products.
Comments
If indeed the return rate is low and the call volume is low then there really isn't a huge problem. If people don't ask for problem remediation, there is no documented problem.
Nonsense. Given the clear identification and documentation of the issue, this means that there is a latent problem that is a threat to profitability and to the value of corporate Goodwill. 0.55% (if correct) in the first 3 weeks for a single-issue is a red-flag and not something to ignore. Painting this as a low rate is incorrect; it is a high rate.
Apple is correct to head off law-suits and damage to the brand by offering rebates and a free work-around. Cost of this is very low compared to the potential of the alternative. I believe that previous class-action against them taught them a lesson but perhaps I am underestimating Jobs arrogance.
Nonsense. Given the clear identification and documentation of the issue, this means that there is a latent problem that is a threat to profitability and to the value of corporate Goodwill. 0.55% (if correct) in the first 3 weeks for a single-issue is a red-flag and not something to ignore. Painting this as a low rate is incorrect; it is a high rate.
We don't have any comparative information on that, so let's talk about the data point where we DO have comparative information.
Apple reports that less than 2% of iPhone 4 handsets have been returned vs. over 6% of 3GS (I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was about 3:1.
The 3GS must have been an incredible failure for your point to make any sense. Was it?
Listen pal, you are one rude SOB. Why don't you just get a life and calm down. Anytime anyone says anything that might be construed as a criticism you practically have a shit herrmorage. A criticism is a just a criticism. And anyone in business knows not every unsatisfied customer calls. It's biz 101 dude.
Take a chill pill and stop being damn rude.
I'm with you on this. Unfortunately these boards are going downhill and the likes of JRagosta are one of the causes. We used to be able to have some interesting discussions based on hypothesis (that can't always be backed up by hard data) and it was good. People aired their opinions and there were some interesting ideas came up.
Now, people see something they don't like and reply in such an incredibly rude way. Honestly, I think people on the internet really do need to consider, "would I reply this way if I were in the same room as the guy?" I have to admit that if someone spoke to me in the way they reply on here, they'd get a decent smack.
Steve Jobs is full of crap.
OF COURSE HE KNEW AND WAS WARNED IN ADVANCED.
He brags on stage that Apple owned and bought a $100 million dollar antenna testing facility during iphone design. Consumer reports used a $10,000 testing facility and found the problem immediately. Steve says they did thousands of tests, and it was only on a small percentage, and that they should have said something during the keynote.
OF COURSE THEY KNEW IN ADVANCE, and damn right that engineer told him?
You can't tell people you had a $100million dollar testing facility but expect them to believe you were so incompetent that you NEVER ONCE EVER SAW THIS ANTENNA ISSUE in advance, because IF THAT IS THE TRUTH?Then Apple doesn't belong in the cellphone business.
And anyway steve jobs refuted that when he said, we knew in advance that all smart phones do this?obviously it was discussed quite a bit BEFORE the launch and they were hoping consumers wouldn't figure it out?
Go hang out where someone actually cares what you have to say troll - this issue is now put to rest. When in a weak signal area, don't touch a 1/16" area of the phone - just like, don't stick your finger in the electrical wall outlet (oops, the house must be defective).
Nonsense. Given the clear identification and documentation of the issue, this means that there is a latent problem that is a threat to profitability and to the value of corporate Goodwill. 0.55% (if correct) in the first 3 weeks for a single-issue is a red-flag and not something to ignore. Painting this as a low rate is incorrect; it is a high rate.
Apple is correct to head off law-suits and damage to the brand by offering rebates and a free work-around. Cost of this is very low compared to the potential of the alternative. I believe that previous class-action against them taught them a lesson but perhaps I am underestimating Jobs arrogance.
Excuse me troll, but Jobs made it quite clear that ANY issue related to the antenna OR reception was included and most surely many of those calls would be related to ATT issues and not the phone - they were being very conservative!
Your brain may be too small to grasp the entire story such as lower return rates, the highest satisfaction rates by far, competitive product performance, etc.
We don't have any comparative information on that, so let's talk about the data point where we DO have comparative information.
Apple reports that less than 2% of iPhone 4 handsets have been returned vs. over 6% of 3GS (I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was about 3:1.
The 3GS must have been an incredible failure for your point to make any sense. Was it?
No --- you are misinterpreting. Some people are saying the antenna problem is not a serious issue and are parroting some numbers to support the point. I am just saying, don't take those numbers at face value; explore and extrapolate, add values to find some meaning in them.
I say that the numbers quoted support the opposite conclusion: the antenna problem is a big deal.
I am not saying the i4 or the i3GS are failures. This problem is truly a problem. The reason I translate things to dollars is because that is what management, especially executive management, always reduce issues to.
Now... so, 1.7% return rate in the first 3 weeks for the i4 vs 6% for the i3GS over the same period.
That's good and indicative of overall excellent engineering. Don't get me wrong; I like my iPhone but I take issue with the idea that the antenna isn't a serious and preventable design flaw. Note that the 1.7 and 6% figures are for all returns, covering all issues.
Now, what percentage of the returns are for this one problem? At a 0.55% complaint rate with say, half of the complainers returning the phone then this one problem is the cause of about 15% of the returns in the first 3 weeks. Pretty sick for one design flaw.
This should be a red-flag for management. Questions to be asked internally at this point are: is the rate increasing? what are our carrier partners saying and experiencing? what do our engineers say? is this going to go away? can we ignore it like the battery life issue?
Unlike batteries, there is no opportunity for 3rd party devices to provide relief and to create an associated profit sector. You can't plug in an external antenna array that will alleviate the problem... you can tell them to buy bumpers but the response to that has been overwhelmingly negative.
Obviously the answers to these and other questions were such that Apple realized the seriousness (er.. potential cost) and that it was not a non-issue. Hence today's press conference and offer to support customers.
The return to complaint ratio is now likely to reduce because of the rebate and bumper offer. This will please the telco partners.
I would not be surprised to hear that Apple was getting feedback from carriers outside the US that they did not want to introduce the i4 until the antenna issue was resolved.
So, as I have said the i4 is a great device. Consumer Reports said the same thing. So have other testing labs. But they all agree the antenna problem is real and unacceptable. Apple shouldn't be crucified and the device isn't a failure but the issue needed to be addressed. This isn't just a response to media pressure.
Now here's the rub: I bought a car that is just great; I love it, but the tires go completely flat in the worst possible situations. I guess its due to the climate I live in and the fact that I feel compelled to hold on to the steering wheel in a normal manner. It's OK though: the GPS works great (even though I can't go anywhere in my neighborhood), and the screen resolution on the in-dash display is fantastic. Plus the sound is excellent. So, I'll push my car into a better neighborhood while listening to that great sound. Boy, am I happy.
Excuse me troll, but Jobs made it quite clear that ANY issue related to the antenna OR reception was included and most surely many of those calls would be related to ATT issues and not the phone - they were being very conservative!
Your brain may be too small to grasp the entire story such as lower return rates, the highest satisfaction rates by far, competitive product performance, etc.
He will have to be severely disciplined. Mistress Ballmer, do you have your whip handy?! (Stay tuned to this station - video at 10.)
Steve Jobs is full of crap.
OF COURSE HE KNEW AND WAS WARNED IN ADVANCED.
He brags on stage that Apple owned and bought a $100 million dollar antenna testing facility during iphone design. Consumer reports used a $10,000 testing facility and found the problem immediately. Steve says they did thousands of tests, and it was only on a small percentage, and that they should have said something during the keynote.
OF COURSE THEY KNEW IN ADVANCE, and damn right that engineer told him…
You can't tell people you had a $100million dollar testing facility but expect them to believe you were so incompetent that you NEVER ONCE EVER SAW THIS ANTENNA ISSUE in advance, because IF THAT IS THE TRUTH…Then Apple doesn't belong in the cellphone business.
And anyway steve jobs refuted that when he said, we knew in advance that all smart phones do this…obviously it was discussed quite a bit BEFORE the launch and they were hoping consumers wouldn't figure it out…
You are in need of serious help. You should be happy Steve Jobs was driven enough to lead Apple to create the iPhone in the first place...otherwise, today we would be awash in a sea of crappy phones.
I was using your "conservative" extrapolation method.
So, say a .55% call rate indicates that 5.5% of users are adversely affected in a noticeable way. That's a LOT of people and phones.
...Again, IMHO, I think that the above estimates are conservative.
The X-Box comparison is nonsense. It is indicative of a total failure of the production QA process so your extrapolation is non-valid as well. That was my point: the X-Box issue is a red-herring and has no place in the evaluation of the iPhone antenna issue. BTW given the 52.4% failure return rate of the X-Box, it is likely that 100% of the devices have a hardware production defect... after 100% you can't go any more.
Let's put it another way: don't use the disastrous failure of another device (a totally incomparable device and situation as well) as justification for a serious design flaw in the iPhone. Is that clear enough?
Now, now... you don't have to resort to name calling just because you have trouble reading and understanding. Didn't your mama raise you right?
So, as I have said the i4 is a great device. Consumer Reports said the same thing. So have other testing labs. But they all agree the antenna problem is real and unacceptable. Apple shouldn't be crucified and the device isn't a failure but the issue needed to be addressed. This isn't just a response to media pressure.
Now here's the rub: I bought a car that is just great; I love it, but the tires go completely flat in the worst possible situations. I guess its due to the climate I live in and the fact that I feel compelled to hold on to the steering wheel in a normal manner. It's OK though: the GPS works great (even though I can't go anywhere in my neighborhood), and the screen resolution on the in-dash display is fantastic. Plus the sound is excellent. So, I'll push my car into a better neighborhood while listening to that great sound. Boy, am I happy.
Wahhh Wahh Wahh
Go hang out where someone actually cares what you have to say troll - this issue is now put to rest. When in a weak signal area, don't touch a 1/16" area of the phone - just like, don't stick your finger in the electrical wall outlet (oops, the house must be defective).
Typical Apple apologist: you declare anyone a troll if he or she calls shennanigans re:Apple's products or statements from Apple about issues.
Quite frankly, Apple is feeling the heat from having a customer base that extends far beyond those who have been encultured into the Apple way. A broader base means having to change the way support issues are handled.
Again: Apple realized what was happening and responded accordingly. They are dealing with a serious problem in an otherwise excellent product.
Now, who is going to be dumb enough to buy an i4 when an i4.01 is being readied for the production line?
You were the one who "speculated" that the number of calls to Apple Care (0.55%) was actually ten times higher (5.5%).
I was using your extrapolating method.
er, re-read the reply...
Wahhh Wahh Wahh
Boy, you folk are sure sensitive if you think this is trolling or crying!
er, re-read the reply...
how many didn't bother to call? It's well known the numbers of people who actually call to complain about issue such as this is much lower than those who actually have it.
A whole bunch of pomp and ceremony, our phone is as bad as their phone's reception, blah blah blah.
The reason Apple was crucified in the media is because look at it, the we're the king of the castle and yer the dirty rascal kind of thing you get from the apple crowd (frig I'm in it I can see it) makes it even more a target.
The more smug the grins, the more people want to wipe them. Issue or no issue, that all it really is.
You do not represent the people I know who use Apple products.