That story is plain wacked out. Those people were practically taken advantage of in a time of need. Rapture...indeed!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Taken advantage of? By whom? The 12 year old that wrote them the card? I can see what you are saying, but I disagree with your premise. I do not watch CBN, TBN, 700 Club et al, so i do not know what their programming is like. But this story does not raise any hackles for me. Who was taking advantage of them? I see no evidence of that. They Chose to turn to God for their answers rather than to anger and hatred. Am I missing something?
They even have a "Shop CBN" button.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now this story bothered me for many reasons. First of all, let me start by saying, i believe in the power of prayer to change things. However, the way they wrote this story it goes back to the vending machine god. "Subscribe to CBN, send us a check, we will pray for you, the world is your oyster!" The story may even be ture, the prayer may have made the diffrence, but the way the story is written comes off like a bad sales pitch.
[quote]<strong>I just don't understand how an omnipotent God would let people like this, and child molesting priests, be his representatives. I mean, what's the allure??</strong><hr></blockquote>
Remember, God does not reach down and place these people into power. People do. People make mistakes, and unfortuantely that is the way it is. Sometimes I wonder about those molesting priests, and snake oil salesmen as well. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[quote]<strong>It's almost as though you have to be weak minded to buy into it. Not saying you're weak minded Noah. You're probably not a 700 club fan. But religious obsession, raptures et al, just seems to border on something not quite healthy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As I have stated, it is an interest and a past time for the rapture topic. And my views have been somewhat changed on that topic as well. However, my relationship with Jesus Christ is an obsession with me, as can be plainly seen. I have not denied that fact, and will not. And it does not make a person weak minded because they believe something you or anyone else does not.
So then your belief in nothing is just an accident of birth? Or did you find nothing later on and are now the toad that you are because of it? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't believe in any silly stories. That isn't a belief. I simply don't care to believe in any of that crap. I was born into a Jewish household and I was raised that way. I chose to reject all organized religion and simply not try to explain the unexplainable.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
If he isn't talking back to you, it's not a relationship. You are stalking a mythical being. How demented is that? (That's rhetorical; don't answer)</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
I don't believe in any silly stories. That isn't a belief. I simply don't care to believe in any of that crap. I was born into a Jewish household and I was raised that way. I chose to reject all organized religion and simply not try to explain the unexplainable.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That would stand except for the fact that you try to push your beliefs off on me and others who do try to explain the unexplainable as if we were somehow attacking you directly. This is deeper than you just trying to be above the fray. There is more here than you are spekaing of, as there is with any person. This is a belief for you, and it goes quite deep as you attack any that believe contrary to it, even if they are not speaking of, or to, you directly...
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
I am on the wrong side of the argument? You are the one bantering about with your ridiculous stories that your parents taught you because their parents taught them because their parents taught them, et cetera. Religion is an accident of birth. It's silly. It really is. You want to know why one can't fight religion with logic? Religion isn't logical. It's illogic at its finest. You only believe what you believe because you were born into the damn "faith" (which I already proved you no longer have because you try to prove your faith). Quit being a pussy and stop confusing life's repercussions with grand design.
EDIT: fixed random typos
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey Exercise, I am with you on that... people are born into certain beliefs and as such can never really get rid of that "base programming"... I was born into a christain background, it is difficult to this day to shed some of the pre-conceptions of my childhood programming. You can't argue religion with a logical debate... I remember reading somewhere about a conversation between a doctor and a smoker... the doctor lists all these things like cancer and decreased immune responce, etc... And the patient responds: Have you ever got anyone to stop smoking by using logical arguements?
Most beliefs are inset thru upringing and are well supported in the subconscious... They are habitual patterns of thought and habits are hard to break...
To this day I still kinda pray (not with hands, aloud or kneeling or anything like that) when I get really scared... (doesnt happen that often) but I think thats natural... I mean its like if you fell off a building... I am sure anybody would be saying or thinking to themselves - "I would do anything to get out of this situation"... The only difference is that kind of "helpless situational thought" is molded by your upringing/thought patterns...
So the "I wish I could get out of this" becomes "please help me out of this"...
That would stand except for the fact that you try to push your beliefs off on me and others who do try to explain the unexplainable as if we were somehow attacking you directly. This is deeper than you just trying to be above the fray. There is more here than you are spekaing of, as there is with any person. This is a belief for you, and it goes quite deep as you attack any that believe contrary to it, even if they are not speaking of, or to, you directly...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You seem to have a problem with contradicting terms.
First, you try to prove faith. That's retarded.
Now, you are upset because I chastise you for trying to explain the unexplainable? Do you actually think about what you wrote before you hit add reply?
Hey Exercise, I am with you on that... people are born into certain beliefs and as such can never really get rid of that "base programming"... I was born into a christain background, it is difficult to this day to shed some of the pre-conceptions of my childhood programming. You can't argue religion with a logical debate... I remember reading somewhere about a conversation between a doctor and a smoker... the doctor lists all these things like cancer and decreased immune responce, etc... And the patient responds: Have you ever got anyone to stop smoking by using logical arguements?
Most beliefs are inset thru upringing and are well supported in the subconscious... They are habitual patterns of thought and habits are hard to break...
To this day I still kinda pray (not with hands, aloud or kneeling or anything like that) when I get really scared... (doesnt happen that often) but I think thats natural... I mean its like if you fell off a building... I am sure anybody would be saying or thinking to themselves - "I would do anything to get out of this situation"... The only difference is that kind of "helpless situational thought" is molded by your upringing/thought patterns...
So the "I wish I could get out of this" becomes "please help me out of this"...
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
You seem to have a problem with contradicting terms.
First, you try to prove faith. That's retarded.
Now, you are upset because I chastise you for trying to explain the unexplainable? Do you actually think about what you wrote before you hit add reply?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who tried to prove anything? I only provided links to a site in response to a comment. However, if you really want to get technical the links were not proving faith. They were taking a scientific stab at proving God exists. If you had read the links you might have caught the distinction. Or is there no difference between faith, a concept, and God, a being?
As far as your second question. I throw it back at you. Do you actually think before you reply or is it just knee jerk criticism and anger?
Who tried to prove anything? I only provided links to a site in response to a comment. However, if you really want to get technical the links were not proving faith. They were taking a scientific stab at proving God exists. If you had read the links you might have caught the distinction. Or is there no difference between faith, a concept, and God, a being?<hr></blockquote>
You cannot scientifically prove something that is beyond science. Belief in god requires faith. Trying to PROVE that god exists demonstrates a lack of faith. It's not that difficult a concept.
[quote]As far as your second question. I throw it back at you. Do you actually think before you reply or is it just knee jerk criticism and anger?<hr></blockquote>
Nope, that was the third question. You didn't bother to answer the second question because you have no good answer for it.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>You cannot scientifically prove something that is beyond science. Belief in god requires faith. Trying to PROVE that god exists demonstrates a lack of faith. It's not that difficult a concept.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sir (I assume you are a sir, the name could be either I suppose), God does not ever say there is no evidence that he exists. In fact he decalres that the evidence is all around you. Nowhere in the bible does it say that you can only believe He exists by faith and any other way is bad or wrong. In fact, let me extend a challenge to you. Show me any verses that backup your point of view on this. It should not be hard, you claim it is a cornerstone with how you pound it so much.
[quote]<strong>Nope, that was the third question. You didn't bother to answer the second question because you have no good answer for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I feel it answered both the second and third as they were both realted so I treated them as one big rant (question).
you certainly are the pot calling the kettle black as far as whining about questions not being answered. There are quite a few that I have posed to you that you have completely sidestepped. I bet you have ignored at least 4-5 of them. Care to go back and answer a few yourself? I bet not.
Actually I feel it answered both the second and third as they were both realted so I treated them as one big rant (question).<hr></blockquote>
I've been over this with you before. Scripture is not a reliable source.
[quote]you certainly are the pot calling the kettle black as far as whining about questions not being answered. There are quite a few that I have posed to you that you have completely sidestepped. I bet you have ignored at least 4-5 of them. Care to go back and answer a few yourself? I bet not.<hr></blockquote>
If I did, it was a mere oversight. Ask them again and I'll answer.
Comments
Oh go ahead and say it. It's what everyone is thinking.
EDIT: Typo...
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
<strong>It's websites and religious tactics like this that give Christians in particular a bad name.
<a href="http://cbn.org/living/amazingstories/salvation-fallinglimb.asp"; target="_blank">http://cbn.org/living/amazingstories/salvation-fallinglimb.asp</a>;
That story is plain wacked out. Those people were practically taken advantage of in a time of need. Rapture...indeed!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Taken advantage of? By whom? The 12 year old that wrote them the card? I can see what you are saying, but I disagree with your premise. I do not watch CBN, TBN, 700 Club et al, so i do not know what their programming is like. But this story does not raise any hackles for me. Who was taking advantage of them? I see no evidence of that. They Chose to turn to God for their answers rather than to anger and hatred. Am I missing something?
[quote]<strong>More Dial-a-prayer:
<a href="http://cbn.com/700club/partners/YourMiracleCouldBeJustAPhoneCallAway.asp"; target="_blank">http://cbn.com/700club/partners/YourMiracleCouldBeJustAPhoneCallAway.asp</a>;
They even have a "Shop CBN" button.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now this story bothered me for many reasons. First of all, let me start by saying, i believe in the power of prayer to change things. However, the way they wrote this story it goes back to the vending machine god. "Subscribe to CBN, send us a check, we will pray for you, the world is your oyster!" The story may even be ture, the prayer may have made the diffrence, but the way the story is written comes off like a bad sales pitch.
[quote]<strong>I just don't understand how an omnipotent God would let people like this, and child molesting priests, be his representatives. I mean, what's the allure??</strong><hr></blockquote>
Remember, God does not reach down and place these people into power. People do. People make mistakes, and unfortuantely that is the way it is. Sometimes I wonder about those molesting priests, and snake oil salesmen as well. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[quote]<strong>It's almost as though you have to be weak minded to buy into it. Not saying you're weak minded Noah. You're probably not a 700 club fan. But religious obsession, raptures et al, just seems to border on something not quite healthy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As I have stated, it is an interest and a past time for the rapture topic. And my views have been somewhat changed on that topic as well. However, my relationship with Jesus Christ is an obsession with me, as can be plainly seen. I have not denied that fact, and will not. And it does not make a person weak minded because they believe something you or anyone else does not.
<strong>
The first religion you have IS an accident of birth. If you "find" a religion later in life, you are just an ignorant toad.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So then your belief in nothing is just an accident of birth? Or did you find nothing later on and are now the toad that you are because of it?
<strong>
So then your belief in nothing is just an accident of birth? Or did you find nothing later on and are now the toad that you are because of it?
I don't believe in any silly stories. That isn't a belief. I simply don't care to believe in any of that crap. I was born into a Jewish household and I was raised that way. I chose to reject all organized religion and simply not try to explain the unexplainable.
If he isn't talking back to you, it's not a relationship. You are stalking a mythical being. How demented is that? (That's rhetorical; don't answer)
<strong>
If he isn't talking back to you, it's not a relationship. You are stalking a mythical being. How demented is that? (That's rhetorical; don't answer)</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you want no answer, why post? Sheesh!
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: RyanTheGreat ]</p>
<strong>
I don't believe in any silly stories. That isn't a belief. I simply don't care to believe in any of that crap. I was born into a Jewish household and I was raised that way. I chose to reject all organized religion and simply not try to explain the unexplainable.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That would stand except for the fact that you try to push your beliefs off on me and others who do try to explain the unexplainable as if we were somehow attacking you directly. This is deeper than you just trying to be above the fray. There is more here than you are spekaing of, as there is with any person. This is a belief for you, and it goes quite deep as you attack any that believe contrary to it, even if they are not speaking of, or to, you directly...
<strong>
I am on the wrong side of the argument? You are the one bantering about with your ridiculous stories that your parents taught you because their parents taught them because their parents taught them, et cetera. Religion is an accident of birth. It's silly. It really is. You want to know why one can't fight religion with logic? Religion isn't logical. It's illogic at its finest. You only believe what you believe because you were born into the damn "faith" (which I already proved you no longer have because you try to prove your faith). Quit being a pussy and stop confusing life's repercussions with grand design.
EDIT: fixed random typos
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey Exercise, I am with you on that... people are born into certain beliefs and as such can never really get rid of that "base programming"... I was born into a christain background, it is difficult to this day to shed some of the pre-conceptions of my childhood programming. You can't argue religion with a logical debate... I remember reading somewhere about a conversation between a doctor and a smoker... the doctor lists all these things like cancer and decreased immune responce, etc... And the patient responds: Have you ever got anyone to stop smoking by using logical arguements?
Most beliefs are inset thru upringing and are well supported in the subconscious... They are habitual patterns of thought and habits are hard to break...
To this day I still kinda pray (not with hands, aloud or kneeling or anything like that) when I get really scared... (doesnt happen that often) but I think thats natural... I mean its like if you fell off a building... I am sure anybody would be saying or thinking to themselves - "I would do anything to get out of this situation"... The only difference is that kind of "helpless situational thought" is molded by your upringing/thought patterns...
So the "I wish I could get out of this" becomes "please help me out of this"...
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
<strong>
That would stand except for the fact that you try to push your beliefs off on me and others who do try to explain the unexplainable as if we were somehow attacking you directly. This is deeper than you just trying to be above the fray. There is more here than you are spekaing of, as there is with any person. This is a belief for you, and it goes quite deep as you attack any that believe contrary to it, even if they are not speaking of, or to, you directly...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You seem to have a problem with contradicting terms.
First, you try to prove faith. That's retarded.
Now, you are upset because I chastise you for trying to explain the unexplainable? Do you actually think about what you wrote before you hit add reply?
<strong>
Hey Exercise, I am with you on that... people are born into certain beliefs and as such can never really get rid of that "base programming"... I was born into a christain background, it is difficult to this day to shed some of the pre-conceptions of my childhood programming. You can't argue religion with a logical debate... I remember reading somewhere about a conversation between a doctor and a smoker... the doctor lists all these things like cancer and decreased immune responce, etc... And the patient responds: Have you ever got anyone to stop smoking by using logical arguements?
Most beliefs are inset thru upringing and are well supported in the subconscious... They are habitual patterns of thought and habits are hard to break...
To this day I still kinda pray (not with hands, aloud or kneeling or anything like that) when I get really scared... (doesnt happen that often) but I think thats natural... I mean its like if you fell off a building... I am sure anybody would be saying or thinking to themselves - "I would do anything to get out of this situation"... The only difference is that kind of "helpless situational thought" is molded by your upringing/thought patterns...
So the "I wish I could get out of this" becomes "please help me out of this"...
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Finally, a voice of reason emerges.
<strong>
Finally, a voice of reason emerges.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And it wasn't yours.
<strong>
And it wasn't yours.
hahaha... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> I am sorry to luagh at that Exercise...
But that is the first funny thing that NoahJ has said that wasnt profoundly disturbing...
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
<strong>
You seem to have a problem with contradicting terms.
First, you try to prove faith. That's retarded.
Now, you are upset because I chastise you for trying to explain the unexplainable? Do you actually think about what you wrote before you hit add reply?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who tried to prove anything? I only provided links to a site in response to a comment. However, if you really want to get technical the links were not proving faith. They were taking a scientific stab at proving God exists. If you had read the links you might have caught the distinction. Or is there no difference between faith, a concept, and God, a being?
As far as your second question. I throw it back at you. Do you actually think before you reply or is it just knee jerk criticism and anger?
<strong>
hahaha... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> I am sorry to luagh at that Exercise...
But that is the first funny thing that NoahJ has said that wasnt profoundly disturbing...
Thanks, err, I think. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>
hahaha... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> I am sorry to luagh at that Exercise...
But that is the first funny thing that NoahJ has said that wasnt profoundly disturbing...
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, it was quite funny. I have no problem admitting that.
Who tried to prove anything? I only provided links to a site in response to a comment. However, if you really want to get technical the links were not proving faith. They were taking a scientific stab at proving God exists. If you had read the links you might have caught the distinction. Or is there no difference between faith, a concept, and God, a being?<hr></blockquote>
You cannot scientifically prove something that is beyond science. Belief in god requires faith. Trying to PROVE that god exists demonstrates a lack of faith. It's not that difficult a concept.
[quote]As far as your second question. I throw it back at you. Do you actually think before you reply or is it just knee jerk criticism and anger?<hr></blockquote>
Nope, that was the third question. You didn't bother to answer the second question because you have no good answer for it.
<strong>lets please try to keep this civilized and respect all beliefs... insults do not help build a successful argument. (Frivolity)
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: RyanTheGreat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's try not to butt into arguments unless we are actually going to contribute something relevant.
<strong>You cannot scientifically prove something that is beyond science. Belief in god requires faith. Trying to PROVE that god exists demonstrates a lack of faith. It's not that difficult a concept.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sir (I assume you are a sir, the name could be either I suppose), God does not ever say there is no evidence that he exists. In fact he decalres that the evidence is all around you. Nowhere in the bible does it say that you can only believe He exists by faith and any other way is bad or wrong. In fact, let me extend a challenge to you. Show me any verses that backup your point of view on this. It should not be hard, you claim it is a cornerstone with how you pound it so much.
[quote]<strong>Nope, that was the third question. You didn't bother to answer the second question because you have no good answer for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I feel it answered both the second and third as they were both realted so I treated them as one big rant (question).
you certainly are the pot calling the kettle black as far as whining about questions not being answered. There are quite a few that I have posed to you that you have completely sidestepped. I bet you have ignored at least 4-5 of them. Care to go back and answer a few yourself? I bet not.
Actually I feel it answered both the second and third as they were both realted so I treated them as one big rant (question).<hr></blockquote>
I've been over this with you before. Scripture is not a reliable source.
[quote]you certainly are the pot calling the kettle black as far as whining about questions not being answered. There are quite a few that I have posed to you that you have completely sidestepped. I bet you have ignored at least 4-5 of them. Care to go back and answer a few yourself? I bet not.<hr></blockquote>
If I did, it was a mere oversight. Ask them again and I'll answer.