You can blame Apple for the ridiculous performance gap between leopard and snow leopard, but drivers? Isn't that, like, Nvidia's responsibility?
Perhaps, but you can't just download the latest drivers from Nvidia, you have Apple to thank for that, and you only get updates, if and when Apple feels like it, and only on HW they feel like supporting.
It's not just Nvidia GPU's that suffer, but also ATI - the current (and previous gen) of ATI GPU's are more than capable of handling Flash acceleration for example, and in Windows, they do. But in OSX, only 3 Nvidia GPU's are supported, the 9400, the 320, and 330.
9600M is supported too -- I had the MBP in Higher Performance 9600M mode and the white rectangle appeared for flash videos on the Gala beta...
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness
Perhaps, but you can't just download the latest drivers from Nvidia, you have Apple to thank for that, and you only get updates, if and when Apple feels like it, and only on HW they feel like supporting.
It's not just Nvidia GPU's that suffer, but also ATI - the current (and previous gen) of ATI GPU's are more than capable of handling Flash acceleration for example, and in Windows, they do. But in OSX, only 3 Nvidia GPU's are supported, the 9400, the 320, and 330.
This update simply fixes whatever 10.6.4 screwed up in the first place. Graphics performance was far better on NVIDIA driven Macs with 10.6.3. Apple's support forums have a few threads on the matter:
So Apple fixes video performance with this update, but it leaves the NVidia CUDA control panel saying that an Update is Required that NVidia has not produced yet. At the rate it took NVidia to get the first formal version of CUDA divers out we may have to wait another year for their fix. Fortunately, my iMac's (early 2009) 9400M is crap for CUDA anyways so it will make no difference.
STILL no OpenGL 3.3 support on 9400M/9600M! Funny that Nvidia has 3.3 drivers out for Windows -- WHERE IS THE MAC SUPPORT?!
OpenGL 3.0 is also STILL not fully supported!
3.0 isn't even complete so looking at 3.3 or 4.x is waste of time.
This does make me wonder about the apparent switch to ATI/AMD. Maybe they weren't as interested in the CPUs as some think and rather are expecting better support from ATI for GPU drivers.
I'm also interested in the development details. It was my understanding that much of the GPU driver work is done in house by Apple. However there are a lot of posts to the contrary. The general development structure would be interesting because you would think that much of the driver code would be similar to what is seen in Windows if the GPU vendors are involved.
Apple is quickly becoming the hottest gaming platform on the market. I think that the console makers should be VERY nervous about now.
Um... no. Apple is now a big player in casual mobile gaming, but has only begun the process of becoming relevant (not "the hottest") in the computer gaming market. Computer gaming is generally on a downward trend as developers opt to work on consoles instead. Blizzard is perhaps the only major computer game developer left; even though Valve clearly prefers the computer, they've been releasing games on consoles for a decade, and are taking steps to bring their console games to feature parity with their computer counterparts. Steamworks on PS3 via Portal 2 is the first step in that process.
Nintendo and Sony worry about Apple as a competitor in the portable space. They're worried about the iPhone and iPod Touch competing with the (3)DS(i) and PSP, not the iMac competing with the Wii or Playstation 3. Likewise, Nintendo and Sony don't consider Windows a competing platform: Microsoft has the Xbox 360 for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
I'm also interested in the development details. It was my understanding that much of the GPU driver work is done in house by Apple. However there are a lot of posts to the contrary. The general development structure would be interesting because you would think that much of the driver code would be similar to what is seen in Windows if the GPU vendors are involved.
My guess is that ATi and nvidia write drivers for OS X just as they do for Windows, but those drivers have historically taken a backseat to their efforts on Windows. More frequent releases, larger audience, greater demand, etc. The usual numbers game. It does appear that Apple works more closely with ATi and nvidia than Microsoft, however, but that's because Apple has specific requirements from their GPUs: emphasis on battery life, low ambient noise, low operating temperatures, etc. Microsoft has no such requirements and simply issues WHQL certification that the drivers won't screw up your OS install.
Apple deserves credit for finally starting to improve its stance on graphic prowess in general. Working with Adobe to enable GPU access for Flash, working closely with Valve, ATi, and nvidia to improve gaming performance, and more aggressively updating its GPU selections in Macs. Next step: better OpenGL support.
Currently I'm running an early 2008 MBP and actually like Snow Leopard. I think many people forget about the things that SL fixed and did so very well. For example i haven't had any WiFi issues since the arrival of SL.
However Apple is really dropping the ball here with respect to GPU drivers. First; perfornance improvements are important even on new hardware. The problem is not with old hardware though, Apple has really dropped the ball on GPU video acceleration for the new ATI cards. That is a performance regression for NEW hardware. Second; picking and choosing what to support out of OpenGL is bogus. The goal should be to deliver 100% of the functionality of each point release of OpenGL and other specs they support. I hate to use the phrase "dragging ones feet" but the development team needs to shift from shuffling ones feet to a nice jog.
Thanks for the link. Basically Steam is also WAITING FOR APPLE TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM, as they want both an OpenGL 3.0 & 3.1 feature which will improve performance.
I don't get why Apple didn't have this stuff ready for 10.6 -- which was SUPPOSED to be about PERFORMANCE. *AHEM*
Thanks for the link. Basically Steam is also WAITING FOR APPLE TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM, as they want both an OpenGL 3.0 & 3.1 feature which will improve performance.
I don't get why Apple didn't have this stuff ready for 10.6 -- which was SUPPOSED to be about PERFORMANCE. *AHEM*
Because unlike OpenGL on Windows, Apple uses OpenGL for system drawing tasks. This means that their implementation has to be stable or you get problems like those listed earlier in the thread. On Windows OpenGL is not used for system tasks, only for specific apps.
Also Apple writes a software fallback for all OpenGL calls so that if the gpu hardware doesn't support the function it can be done on the CPU and not just fail. Also their implementation has to cover the Intel GMA on the low end, to the more high performance parts for AMD and Nvidia.
Last Apple also has to wait on the vendors to provide drivers for the hardware. While the Mac has been seeing increasing marketshare, it is still a fraction of the size of Windows. I'm sure the graphics card companies give Windows drivers a higher priority since they comprise the majority of their sales.
Thanks to the graphics update, I can play Starcraft II once again, but now there is a pronounced screen-tearing effect when I scroll down in Safari on any web page. Wow.
3.0 isn't even complete so looking at 3.3 or 4.x is waste of time.
This does make me wonder about the apparent switch to ATI/AMD. Maybe they weren't as interested in the CPUs as some think and rather are expecting better support from ATI for GPU drivers.
I'm also interested in the development details. It was my understanding that much of the GPU driver work is done in house by Apple. However there are a lot of posts to the contrary. The general development structure would be interesting because you would think that much of the driver code would be similar to what is seen in Windows if the GPU vendors are involved.
Dave
OpenGL 3.0 was released in July, 2008. That's over 2 years ago. 3.1 come out in early 2009, 3.2 in late 2009. I can give Apple some slack for what came out a year ago, but July 2008 is before SL.
OpenGL 3.3 is a backport of as many 4.0 features that will work on older HW, and came out this past March (along with 4.0) and if OpenGL 3.x isn't complete as you say, then ATI must have written dummy extensions, as I have all of them, up through 4.0 on my PC, and they just released updated beta OpenCL 1.1 drivers the other day.
ATI and Nvidia keep on top of these extensions, they have to, as they are the ones building the HW around the OpenGL/Direct X specs.
If you could just download OSX-specific drivers from Nvidia/ATI, and they weren't releasing them, I would say blame them, but Apple is the only one that releases them. ATI rolls out a new driver for Windows every month or two.
Please, God, make this Graphics Update solve my huge problem where the graphics extensions on my four-month-old MacBook Pro have been causing kernel panics at least once or twice a week...
If you could just download OSX-specific drivers from Nvidia/ATI, and they weren't releasing them, I would say blame them, but Apple is the only one that releases them. ATI rolls out a new driver for Windows every month or two.
Two points here.
1. You assume that because Apple bundles driver updates with system updates like 10.6.4, that means Apple is writing their own drivers. Not true. All it means is that Apple is being supplied directly with the drivers, which they then bake into the update.
2. ATi releases new drivers once per month, but new releases aren't necessarily improved or better than previous releases. Recent Catalyst drivers have had problems with Crossfire, anti-aliasing in Starcraft 2, and aren't OpenCL certified, to name a few issues. Performance improvements aren't guaranteed, and when delivered are usually along the lines of a 2% improvement in one specific game on one specific GPU or GPU line, as opposed to an across the board improvement regardless of GPU generation or game.
Also, nvidia and ATi release their drivers independently because that's how hardware is supported in the Windows ecosystem. Microsoft doesn't push out new drivers over Windows Update, and they take the stance, rightly, that hardware support is the hardware vendor's problem. Apple takes the same stance, which is why they dictate driver releases on OS X.
OpenGL 3.0 was released in July, 2008. That's over 2 years ago. 3.1 come out in early 2009, 3.2 in late 2009. I can give Apple some slack for what came out a year ago, but July 2008 is before SL.
OpenGL 3.3 is a backport of as many 4.0 features that will work on older HW, and came out this past March (along with 4.0) and if OpenGL 3.x isn't complete as you say, then ATI must have written dummy extensions, as I have all of them, up through 4.0 on my PC, and they just released updated beta OpenCL 1.1 drivers the other day.
ATI and Nvidia keep on top of these extensions, they have to, as they are the ones building the HW around the OpenGL/Direct X specs.
If you could just download OSX-specific drivers from Nvidia/ATI, and they weren't releasing them, I would say blame them, but Apple is the only one that releases them. ATI rolls out a new driver for Windows every month or two.
Nvidia's 3.3/4.x drivers are buggy as hell presently, both on Linux and Windows.
Nvidia 3.1 and 3.2 have quite a few bugs with Linux and Xorg.
Hell, here is the bulk of the Nvidia hardware that is OpenGL 4.x supported:
Quote:
7) What NVIDIA hardware will support OpenGL 4?
The new features in OpenGL 4 require a Fermi GPU. Thus OpenGL 4 is not supported on NV3x, NV4x, G7x, G8x nor GT2xx hardware. This means you need one of the following NVIDIA graphics accelerators to use OpenGL 4:
I don't see a single Mac, including the Mac Pro that supports that, minus the Quadro 4800 FX. The Quadro 5000 FX and 6000 FX are now out w/ zero Mac cards.
Since Nvidia and AMD are driving the bulk of the OpenGL specification and they still have a horde of bugs in their drivers around the spec they mainly write, compared to the maturity of OpenCL 1.0/1.1 that Apple designed the bulk of should not be a surprise that OpenCL would be more mature with Apple seeing as Apple didn't design the OpenGL specification.
Do I believe Apple needs to hire say a dozen OpenGL gurus? Yes. Does it change Nvidia's driver list? Only after Apple ramps up it's OpenGL staff.
I'd love to see a dozen cards to choose from, in the store for Apple Mac Pros. Or even four or six for the iMac. That would be sweet.
I just want them to get OpenGL 3.0/3.1/3.2/3.3 done as all major bottlenecks in games are solved w/ 3.x.
Then again, you won't see the performance improvements in the games, if they aren't OpenGL 3.x aware and optimized.
Thanks for the link. Basically Steam is also WAITING FOR APPLE TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM, as they want both an OpenGL 3.0 & 3.1 feature which will improve performance.
I don't get why Apple didn't have this stuff ready for 10.6 -- which was SUPPOSED to be about PERFORMANCE. *AHEM*
Not all games utilize the OpenGL 3.x, no matter how much we want them to rebuild and redistribute versions of their games to do so.
I'm with you on Apple needs to get OpenGL 3.x optimized in OS X. By doing so it will be the only OS with the Desktop Environment actually using OpenGL 3.x for it's Window Server and more from top to bottom.
OpenGL 3.x is a long term project for the GNOME and KDE environments, natively, though obviously I'm running OpenGL 3.x in Linux.
Games always lead the adoption along with engineering applications that have the need for such advancements.
When Apple passes OpenGL 3.0/3.1/3.2/3.3 [once you pass 3.0 the other 3 are quick to pass] it means from top to bottom the OS is OpenGL 3.x optimized and enabled for all windows, graphics acceleration, font rendering, etc.
Comments
You can blame Apple for the ridiculous performance gap between leopard and snow leopard, but drivers? Isn't that, like, Nvidia's responsibility?
Perhaps, but you can't just download the latest drivers from Nvidia, you have Apple to thank for that, and you only get updates, if and when Apple feels like it, and only on HW they feel like supporting.
It's not just Nvidia GPU's that suffer, but also ATI - the current (and previous gen) of ATI GPU's are more than capable of handling Flash acceleration for example, and in Windows, they do. But in OSX, only 3 Nvidia GPU's are supported, the 9400, the 320, and 330.
Perhaps, but you can't just download the latest drivers from Nvidia, you have Apple to thank for that, and you only get updates, if and when Apple feels like it, and only on HW they feel like supporting.
It's not just Nvidia GPU's that suffer, but also ATI - the current (and previous gen) of ATI GPU's are more than capable of handling Flash acceleration for example, and in Windows, they do. But in OSX, only 3 Nvidia GPU's are supported, the 9400, the 320, and 330.
Apple is quickly becoming the hottest gaming platform on the market. I think that the console makers should be VERY nervous about now.
Yeah, they must be real nervous about a patch to make a three year old game run properly
http://www.apple.com/macosx/what-is-...ics-media.html
NOT.
I hope they take OpenGL support more seriously.
-Chris
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....readID=2510639
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....69518&tstart=0
There's even a thread on AI about it:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110740
Very pleased to see that Apple dealt with this sooner rather than later. I'd been hoping 10.6.4 would include a fix till now. Thanks Apple!
STILL no OpenGL 3.3 support on 9400M/9600M! Funny that Nvidia has 3.3 drivers out for Windows -- WHERE IS THE MAC SUPPORT?!
OpenGL 3.0 is also STILL not fully supported!
3.0 isn't even complete so looking at 3.3 or 4.x is waste of time.
This does make me wonder about the apparent switch to ATI/AMD. Maybe they weren't as interested in the CPUs as some think and rather are expecting better support from ATI for GPU drivers.
I'm also interested in the development details. It was my understanding that much of the GPU driver work is done in house by Apple. However there are a lot of posts to the contrary. The general development structure would be interesting because you would think that much of the driver code would be similar to what is seen in Windows if the GPU vendors are involved.
Dave
Apple is quickly becoming the hottest gaming platform on the market. I think that the console makers should be VERY nervous about now.
Um... no. Apple is now a big player in casual mobile gaming, but has only begun the process of becoming relevant (not "the hottest") in the computer gaming market. Computer gaming is generally on a downward trend as developers opt to work on consoles instead. Blizzard is perhaps the only major computer game developer left; even though Valve clearly prefers the computer, they've been releasing games on consoles for a decade, and are taking steps to bring their console games to feature parity with their computer counterparts. Steamworks on PS3 via Portal 2 is the first step in that process.
Nintendo and Sony worry about Apple as a competitor in the portable space. They're worried about the iPhone and iPod Touch competing with the (3)DS(i) and PSP, not the iMac competing with the Wii or Playstation 3. Likewise, Nintendo and Sony don't consider Windows a competing platform: Microsoft has the Xbox 360 for that.
I'm also interested in the development details. It was my understanding that much of the GPU driver work is done in house by Apple. However there are a lot of posts to the contrary. The general development structure would be interesting because you would think that much of the driver code would be similar to what is seen in Windows if the GPU vendors are involved.
My guess is that ATi and nvidia write drivers for OS X just as they do for Windows, but those drivers have historically taken a backseat to their efforts on Windows. More frequent releases, larger audience, greater demand, etc. The usual numbers game. It does appear that Apple works more closely with ATi and nvidia than Microsoft, however, but that's because Apple has specific requirements from their GPUs: emphasis on battery life, low ambient noise, low operating temperatures, etc. Microsoft has no such requirements and simply issues WHQL certification that the drivers won't screw up your OS install.
Apple deserves credit for finally starting to improve its stance on graphic prowess in general. Working with Adobe to enable GPU access for Flash, working closely with Valve, ATi, and nvidia to improve gaming performance, and more aggressively updating its GPU selections in Macs. Next step: better OpenGL support.
However Apple is really dropping the ball here with respect to GPU drivers. First; perfornance improvements are important even on new hardware. The problem is not with old hardware though, Apple has really dropped the ball on GPU video acceleration for the new ATI cards. That is a performance regression for NEW hardware. Second; picking and choosing what to support out of OpenGL is bogus. The goal should be to deliver 100% of the functionality of each point release of OpenGL and other specs they support. I hate to use the phrase "dragging ones feet" but the development team needs to shift from shuffling ones feet to a nice jog.
Dave
I don't get why Apple didn't have this stuff ready for 10.6 -- which was SUPPOSED to be about PERFORMANCE. *AHEM*
For the more technically minded folks here is a great rundown on exactly what changes are in the update. http://store.steampowered.com/news/4211/
Thanks for the link. Basically Steam is also WAITING FOR APPLE TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM, as they want both an OpenGL 3.0 & 3.1 feature which will improve performance.
I don't get why Apple didn't have this stuff ready for 10.6 -- which was SUPPOSED to be about PERFORMANCE. *AHEM*
Because unlike OpenGL on Windows, Apple uses OpenGL for system drawing tasks. This means that their implementation has to be stable or you get problems like those listed earlier in the thread. On Windows OpenGL is not used for system tasks, only for specific apps.
Also Apple writes a software fallback for all OpenGL calls so that if the gpu hardware doesn't support the function it can be done on the CPU and not just fail. Also their implementation has to cover the Intel GMA on the low end, to the more high performance parts for AMD and Nvidia.
Last Apple also has to wait on the vendors to provide drivers for the hardware. While the Mac has been seeing increasing marketshare, it is still a fraction of the size of Windows. I'm sure the graphics card companies give Windows drivers a higher priority since they comprise the majority of their sales.
3.0 isn't even complete so looking at 3.3 or 4.x is waste of time.
This does make me wonder about the apparent switch to ATI/AMD. Maybe they weren't as interested in the CPUs as some think and rather are expecting better support from ATI for GPU drivers.
I'm also interested in the development details. It was my understanding that much of the GPU driver work is done in house by Apple. However there are a lot of posts to the contrary. The general development structure would be interesting because you would think that much of the driver code would be similar to what is seen in Windows if the GPU vendors are involved.
Dave
OpenGL 3.0 was released in July, 2008. That's over 2 years ago. 3.1 come out in early 2009, 3.2 in late 2009. I can give Apple some slack for what came out a year ago, but July 2008 is before SL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#OpenGL_3.0
OpenGL 3.3 is a backport of as many 4.0 features that will work on older HW, and came out this past March (along with 4.0) and if OpenGL 3.x isn't complete as you say, then ATI must have written dummy extensions, as I have all of them, up through 4.0 on my PC, and they just released updated beta OpenCL 1.1 drivers the other day.
ATI and Nvidia keep on top of these extensions, they have to, as they are the ones building the HW around the OpenGL/Direct X specs.
If you could just download OSX-specific drivers from Nvidia/ATI, and they weren't releasing them, I would say blame them, but Apple is the only one that releases them. ATI rolls out a new driver for Windows every month or two.
Oh, and I'd like to win the lottery too. Thanks.
If you could just download OSX-specific drivers from Nvidia/ATI, and they weren't releasing them, I would say blame them, but Apple is the only one that releases them. ATI rolls out a new driver for Windows every month or two.
Two points here.
1. You assume that because Apple bundles driver updates with system updates like 10.6.4, that means Apple is writing their own drivers. Not true. All it means is that Apple is being supplied directly with the drivers, which they then bake into the update.
2. ATi releases new drivers once per month, but new releases aren't necessarily improved or better than previous releases. Recent Catalyst drivers have had problems with Crossfire, anti-aliasing in Starcraft 2, and aren't OpenCL certified, to name a few issues. Performance improvements aren't guaranteed, and when delivered are usually along the lines of a 2% improvement in one specific game on one specific GPU or GPU line, as opposed to an across the board improvement regardless of GPU generation or game.
Also, nvidia and ATi release their drivers independently because that's how hardware is supported in the Windows ecosystem. Microsoft doesn't push out new drivers over Windows Update, and they take the stance, rightly, that hardware support is the hardware vendor's problem. Apple takes the same stance, which is why they dictate driver releases on OS X.
OpenGL 3.0 was released in July, 2008. That's over 2 years ago. 3.1 come out in early 2009, 3.2 in late 2009. I can give Apple some slack for what came out a year ago, but July 2008 is before SL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenGL#OpenGL_3.0
OpenGL 3.3 is a backport of as many 4.0 features that will work on older HW, and came out this past March (along with 4.0) and if OpenGL 3.x isn't complete as you say, then ATI must have written dummy extensions, as I have all of them, up through 4.0 on my PC, and they just released updated beta OpenCL 1.1 drivers the other day.
ATI and Nvidia keep on top of these extensions, they have to, as they are the ones building the HW around the OpenGL/Direct X specs.
If you could just download OSX-specific drivers from Nvidia/ATI, and they weren't releasing them, I would say blame them, but Apple is the only one that releases them. ATI rolls out a new driver for Windows every month or two.
Nvidia's 3.3/4.x drivers are buggy as hell presently, both on Linux and Windows.
Nvidia 3.1 and 3.2 have quite a few bugs with Linux and Xorg.
Hell, here is the bulk of the Nvidia hardware that is OpenGL 4.x supported:
7) What NVIDIA hardware will support OpenGL 4?
The new features in OpenGL 4 require a Fermi GPU. Thus OpenGL 4 is not supported on NV3x, NV4x, G7x, G8x nor GT2xx hardware. This means you need one of the following NVIDIA graphics accelerators to use OpenGL 4:
I don't see a single Mac, including the Mac Pro that supports that, minus the Quadro 4800 FX. The Quadro 5000 FX and 6000 FX are now out w/ zero Mac cards.
Since Nvidia and AMD are driving the bulk of the OpenGL specification and they still have a horde of bugs in their drivers around the spec they mainly write, compared to the maturity of OpenCL 1.0/1.1 that Apple designed the bulk of should not be a surprise that OpenCL would be more mature with Apple seeing as Apple didn't design the OpenGL specification.
Do I believe Apple needs to hire say a dozen OpenGL gurus? Yes. Does it change Nvidia's driver list? Only after Apple ramps up it's OpenGL staff.
I'd love to see a dozen cards to choose from, in the store for Apple Mac Pros. Or even four or six for the iMac. That would be sweet.
I just want them to get OpenGL 3.0/3.1/3.2/3.3 done as all major bottlenecks in games are solved w/ 3.x.
Then again, you won't see the performance improvements in the games, if they aren't OpenGL 3.x aware and optimized.
Thanks for the link. Basically Steam is also WAITING FOR APPLE TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM, as they want both an OpenGL 3.0 & 3.1 feature which will improve performance.
I don't get why Apple didn't have this stuff ready for 10.6 -- which was SUPPOSED to be about PERFORMANCE. *AHEM*
Not all games utilize the OpenGL 3.x, no matter how much we want them to rebuild and redistribute versions of their games to do so.
I'm with you on Apple needs to get OpenGL 3.x optimized in OS X. By doing so it will be the only OS with the Desktop Environment actually using OpenGL 3.x for it's Window Server and more from top to bottom.
OpenGL 3.x is a long term project for the GNOME and KDE environments, natively, though obviously I'm running OpenGL 3.x in Linux.
Games always lead the adoption along with engineering applications that have the need for such advancements.
When Apple passes OpenGL 3.0/3.1/3.2/3.3 [once you pass 3.0 the other 3 are quick to pass] it means from top to bottom the OS is OpenGL 3.x optimized and enabled for all windows, graphics acceleration, font rendering, etc.