You're telling me that you honestly believe that our own government knew all about the worst terrorist attack in our history and just let it happen? Just let thousands of innocent people die? You can't really believe that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess you never heard about Pearl Harbor <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>I'm shocked. I can't believe what has unfolded over the past two weeks. Basically, our government, the one that told us that 9/11 came out of the blue, the one that told us there was no advance warning, the one that gave MORE FUNDING to the CIA and FBI for intelligence so this wouldn't happen, KNEW about the terrorist threat before the attacks.
All that talk about 'we need better intelligence because we didn't see this coming' and 'there was nothing we could do' was complete BS.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What a load. EVERYONE knew about this kind of thing before it happened. It was in a friggin TOM CLANCY book several years ago. G.W. Bush had no more specific information than YOU had on 9/10/01.
This is just another one of those media-hype fests.
The CIA and FBI knew that terrorists attacks were planned!?!? Holy shit, that NEVER HAPPENS!!
FEAR! FIRE! FOES!
It's not like bin Laden hadn't killed dozens of our soldiers and dozens of citizens with his terrorist regime in the past. So shocking!
And Bush really wasn't doing his job as president by not magically knowing every piece of evidence prior to a future event. He really isn't the literal visionary (Nostradamus in '04!) we need heading the executive branch.
So basically the big news here is that, in hindsight, we can find a few clues?
One thing I did not add that Rick's post brought tup, was that I do think the government totally misjudged the threat. I can and do believe that people said, "we can't let this cause a panic, think of the fragile economy!" That's not conspiracy to murder, that is however negligence, a serious crime in itself. The government is all too human. Like the rest of us, it was too jaded to take threats on our soil seriously enough before 9/11. (This even after Oklahoma City. )
My friend's aunt was going out with an arab man for a few months and shortly before 9/11 he left all of a sudden leaving a note saying "goodbye, don't go on any planes, and don't go into any malls on halloween"(or something to that affect)
she gave the note to the police or FBI or something like that, and its obvious nothing happened halloween in terms of malls...but I think thats pretty freaky
<strong>My friend's aunt was going out with an arab man for a few months and shortly before 9/11 he left all of a sudden leaving a note saying "goodbye, don't go on any planes, and don't go into any malls on halloween"(or something to that affect)
she gave the note to the police or FBI or something like that, and its obvious nothing happened halloween in terms of malls...but I think thats pretty freaky</strong><hr></blockquote>Ooo, my spidey sense for urban legends tingles whenever someone says "my friend's aunt..."
My friend's friend was dating a guy from Afghanistan up until a month ago. She had a date with him around 9/6 and was stood up. She was understandably upset and went to his home to find it completely emptied. On 9/10, she received a letter from her boyfriend explaining that he wished he could tell her why he had left and that he was sorry it had to be like that. The part worth mentioning is that he BEGGED her not to get on any commercial airlines on 9/11 and to not to go any malls on Halloween. As soon as everything happened on the 11th, she called the FBI and has since turned over the letter.<hr></blockquote>
So let's think about this logically. Let's say the FBI knew that there was a chance someone was going to hijack a plane sometime around September 11th. What should they have done? Closed all the airports? No. Put sky marshals on all the planes? There weren't enough. Warn everyone that there might be terrorist activity sometime maybe? No.
Someone please suggest to us what they should have done with this information and stop complaining!
The real problem is the cover-up,the lack of honesty,the corporations working in the shadows,guiding American foreign policy.The fact that the Taliban were being threatened before September 11 suggests that maybe those planning the attacks thought of them as a preemptive strike,not that they were justified in any way-they weren't ,but the truth is that they weren't unprovoked attacks.But of course it is clear that the Taliban are real bastards,one of the more evil governments in world history,but I just don't like the business of American government being done in secret,and I don't like lies.
Well i think that the FBI and the CIA have all the symptoms of the threat , but they did not make the diagnosis.
Why did not they make it : it's an another question .
But we can push some explanation :
- this was never arrived before
- they refuse to see this scenario : too great implications if you want to react properly and an excess of optimism in believing that USA was a sanctuary and nobody will be fool enough to attack it.
- all the info did not reach the central agencies : for example a local agencie found strange that arabs where taking lessons of pilotage on airplanes, but the info did not reach the central agencie, one burocrat finding by itself that it was not important.
People... Lets not get suckered into debating into this debate of ?the United States goverment aready know about 11th September 2001 before it happen and unable to do a competent action to deal with it?. This kind of information release to the public by the press is only discredit some of the people who worked on the goverment (like George W. Bush for example), maybe ?they? want throw out the Bush administratio?
Anyway. What you should be thinking are:
- Why didn't there were jet fighters launched on that day to intercept the renegade airliners, so that the renegade airliners can be escorted safely to an airport? Remember, this is a basic rule, all of the procedures for this kind of thing is already clearly defined.
- If there were no way escort the renegade airliners to safety, why is that the airliners weren't blown out of the sky before they reached a restricted airspace? The rule of dealing with unauthorized tresspassers are very clearly defined, especially to those with harmful intent.
So... Folks, even without prior information, things can be handle, there would be no aircrafts crashing into any important tall buildings.
The reasons on why the twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed are totally different things. The average normal sane people who have a scientific knowledge were quite confused when those towers collapsed. They just think this in their head, ?An aircraft do this? No way! There must be something else.? The reasoning of intense fire just won't do.
And lets not forget the convience of instant avaibility of very nice photos and articles to be printed on newspaper at the side of the world (around 20.000 Kms away) in just a few hours after the incident.
Folks, we are dealing with a giant international organization here. Who can do things more than anything that a small organization can do, and definetly more things than anything that a super power country can do.
Al-Qaeda isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
The United States of America isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
Folks... We really must realize on who's our true enemy is, ?they? will exploit our weakness as soon as we reveal it.
[quote]Absolute, complete, total, utter, undeniable bullshit. People who say this have no desire, of ever getting to know who runs this country or making a real difference. I don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, Green or Whig. It's just oh-so easy to assume that this is some kind of conspiracy because you're not bright or talented enough to do anything for others. But it's so easy to point fingers, implicate, pontificate and generally criticize others for a responsibility you have no real ability to actually handle. It's so easy from behind your little desk.<hr></blockquote> blah blah blah
As Applenut said.... perhaps you recall Pearl Harbor?
That stuff that Ari Fleischer was rattling about this morning (5-16) on the CNN White House Briefing was such a load of BS and deliberate lies. Whoever put that dolt in such a position of public responsibility needs firing. Now.
<strong>I've always thought the CIA/FBI BUSH knew of the plans, and they wanted it too happen. Maybe they underestimated the scale of the attack, but I was/am damn sure that they knew. Its all about money. A few thousand deaths are of no concern to governments (although for obvious reasons they'd never admit too this). Its all about money/oil and excuses to get Osama. The benefit to the US outweighs the losses as far as govn is concerned.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just can't accept that. Say what you want about Bush, but I simply cannot believe he could do that. In fact, I just can't believe our government would go that far.....
<strong>So let's think about this logically. Let's say the FBI knew that there was a chance someone was going to hijack a plane sometime around September 11th. What should they have done? Closed all the airports? No. Put sky marshals on all the planes? There weren't enough. Warn everyone that there might be terrorist activity sometime maybe? No.
Someone please suggest to us what they should have done with this information and stop complaining!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well for one, they should have put the airforce on alert so that if there was a hijacking they could get to it very quickly. If they knew that the WTC was a possible target (and any others) they should ahve had a contingency plan to protect it. They should have at least made the airports around major targets more secure and even put Air Marshals on planes with people of middle eastern desent on them...
there are a lot of things they could have done--but what did they do? NOTHING... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
You probably are. This is pathetic. The one thing we knew on September 11 was that we had suffered an intelligence failure. Here we are now, 8 months later, and Fran is shocked (shocked, I tell you!) to discover that we had a what - an intelligence failure! I?d feel better if I thought you were being disingeuous, Fran, but you probably aren?t.
The FBI and the CIA knew of key elements of the plot but they clearly didn?t know enough or they would have stopped it. Maybe they should have been able to figure out what was in the wind. I think that?s something that can be argued with some conviction. That?s what they get paid to do after all. But all these half-wit conspiracy theories aren?t worth the time it takes to read them. And all you people who keep bringing up Pearl Harbor, what specifically are you alleging?
[quote]You probably are. This is pathetic. The one thing we knew on September 11 was that we had suffered an intelligence failure. Here we are now, 8 months later, and Fran is shocked (shocked, I tell you!) to discover that we had a what - an intelligence failure! I?d feel better if I thought you were being disingeuous, Fran, but you probably aren?t.<hr></blockquote>
They knew about it. They didn't stop it. It WASN'T an intelligence failure. THEY HAD THE INTELLIGENCE! IT'S IN THEIR DOCUMENTS! They KNEW that terrorists were plotting to get hijack planes and fly them into buildings. They KNEW the suspected terrorists. They KNEW the terrorists were going to get on to planes!
This WASN'T an intelligence issue, it was the FBI and CIA NOT DOING THEIR JOBS!!!
<strong>Folks, we are dealing with a giant international organization here. Who can do things more than anything that a small organization can do, and definetly more things than anything that a super power country can do.
Al-Qaeda isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
The United States of America isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
Folks... We really must realize on who's our true enemy is, ?they? will exploit our weakness as soon as we reveal it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So...who is "they" or "them"? People who misinterpret the evidence and twist the truth? Armchair generals, architects or forensics "experts"? The rumors and lies has reached idiocy...
Face it. They couldn't bring the Towers down the first time and went with "Plan B". They learned from their mistakes the first time and prepared their new "soldiers" well. This attack was a long and elabrate terrorist act that will baffle us for years to come.
Terrorists are dishonest, malicious and determined criminals. In fact, I get this feeling that another attack is coming soon...don't know where or when, but when we bicker and fall back into complacency
...that's when they stike again.
That's all I'll say on this subject. I lost a lot of faith in everything after 9|11.
They knew about it. They didn't stop it. It WASN'T an intelligence failure. THEY HAD THE INTELLIGENCE! IT'S IN THEIR DOCUMENTS! They KNEW that terrorists were plotting to get hijack planes and fly them into buildings. They KNEW the suspected terrorists. They KNEW the terrorists were going to get on to planes!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fran, will you please pull your head out? Last August Bush received an intelligence briefing that Al Qaeda might try to hijack some planes. They didn't have any dates or targets or any idea about methods. Where in the documents was there any mention of box cutters? Where is there a mention of time and place? There was no way to even know if they were going to hijack a domestic plane or not. The next day the same briefing was passed on to the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill. Did these members of Congress also KNOW of the plot and do nothing?
The documents you are so hyperventilated about only show that they had some information. They were a step or two behind the bad guys. Nobody put all this information together. Gathering information is part of the job of intelligence. Clearly the FBI and the CIA had some success in this regard. They failed, however to properly analyze the data they had. That's the second and probably most important part of intelligence. Insist all you want that this wasn't an intelligence failure but that's what it was.
Guess what? I know that the terrorists aren't done with us yet. I KNOW something else is being planned. A hell of a lot of good that does me.
Thank you. This is a very good precis of the events leading up to Peal Harbor but I don't think this history is what is being suggested by some of our posters.
[quote]Where in the documents was there any mention of box cutters? Where is there a mention of time and place? There was no way to even know if they were going to hijack a domestic plane or not.<hr></blockquote>
Guess what? We don't know! The only reason the document about Moussaui ever got out was because he is on trial and they are using it as evidence against him saying he was part of the 9/11 conspiracy. There could be other things we don't know about- that's why we need the investigation.
Comments
<strong>THT~
And Samantha~
You're telling me that you honestly believe that our own government knew all about the worst terrorist attack in our history and just let it happen? Just let thousands of innocent people die? You can't really believe that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess you never heard about Pearl Harbor
<strong>I'm shocked. I can't believe what has unfolded over the past two weeks. Basically, our government, the one that told us that 9/11 came out of the blue, the one that told us there was no advance warning, the one that gave MORE FUNDING to the CIA and FBI for intelligence so this wouldn't happen, KNEW about the terrorist threat before the attacks.
All that talk about 'we need better intelligence because we didn't see this coming' and 'there was nothing we could do' was complete BS.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What a load. EVERYONE knew about this kind of thing before it happened. It was in a friggin TOM CLANCY book several years ago. G.W. Bush had no more specific information than YOU had on 9/10/01.
This is just another one of those media-hype fests.
<strong>OH MY GOD!!
The CIA and FBI knew that terrorists attacks were planned!?!? Holy shit, that NEVER HAPPENS!!
FEAR! FIRE! FOES!
It's not like bin Laden hadn't killed dozens of our soldiers and dozens of citizens with his terrorist regime in the past. So shocking!
And Bush really wasn't doing his job as president by not magically knowing every piece of evidence prior to a future event. He really isn't the literal visionary (Nostradamus in '04!) we need heading the executive branch.
So basically the big news here is that, in hindsight, we can find a few clues?
Whoop-de-freakin'-do!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do it man. Go for it.
she gave the note to the police or FBI or something like that, and its obvious nothing happened halloween in terms of malls...but I think thats pretty freaky
[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: Wrong Robot ]</p>
<strong>My friend's aunt was going out with an arab man for a few months and shortly before 9/11 he left all of a sudden leaving a note saying "goodbye, don't go on any planes, and don't go into any malls on halloween"(or something to that affect)
she gave the note to the police or FBI or something like that, and its obvious nothing happened halloween in terms of malls...but I think thats pretty freaky</strong><hr></blockquote>Ooo, my spidey sense for urban legends tingles whenever someone says "my friend's aunt..."
Yup, here 'tis.
<a href="http://www.snopes.com/rumors/mallrisk.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/rumors/mallrisk.htm</A>;
[quote]From a chain e-mail:
My friend's friend was dating a guy from Afghanistan up until a month ago. She had a date with him around 9/6 and was stood up. She was understandably upset and went to his home to find it completely emptied. On 9/10, she received a letter from her boyfriend explaining that he wished he could tell her why he had left and that he was sorry it had to be like that. The part worth mentioning is that he BEGGED her not to get on any commercial airlines on 9/11 and to not to go any malls on Halloween. As soon as everything happened on the 11th, she called the FBI and has since turned over the letter.<hr></blockquote>
Someone please suggest to us what they should have done with this information and stop complaining!
Why did not they make it : it's an another question .
But we can push some explanation :
- this was never arrived before
- they refuse to see this scenario : too great implications if you want to react properly and an excess of optimism in believing that USA was a sanctuary and nobody will be fool enough to attack it.
- all the info did not reach the central agencies : for example a local agencie found strange that arabs where taking lessons of pilotage on airplanes, but the info did not reach the central agencie, one burocrat finding by itself that it was not important.
Anyway. What you should be thinking are:
- Why didn't there were jet fighters launched on that day to intercept the renegade airliners, so that the renegade airliners can be escorted safely to an airport? Remember, this is a basic rule, all of the procedures for this kind of thing is already clearly defined.
- If there were no way escort the renegade airliners to safety, why is that the airliners weren't blown out of the sky before they reached a restricted airspace? The rule of dealing with unauthorized tresspassers are very clearly defined, especially to those with harmful intent.
So... Folks, even without prior information, things can be handle, there would be no aircrafts crashing into any important tall buildings.
And those only about the aircrafts.
<a href="http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews43updates3.html"; target="_blank">http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews43updates3.html</a>;
The reasons on why the twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed are totally different things. The average normal sane people who have a scientific knowledge were quite confused when those towers collapsed. They just think this in their head, ?An aircraft do this? No way! There must be something else.? The reasoning of intense fire just won't do.
<a href="http://world.care2.com/jmcmichael/files/"; target="_blank">http://world.care2.com/jmcmichael/files/</a>;
And as for the Pentagon. Well... Do you see any Boeing in the page below?
<a href="http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm</a>;
And lets not forget the convience of instant avaibility of very nice photos and articles to be printed on newspaper at the side of the world (around 20.000 Kms away) in just a few hours after the incident.
Folks, we are dealing with a giant international organization here. Who can do things more than anything that a small organization can do, and definetly more things than anything that a super power country can do.
Al-Qaeda isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
The United States of America isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
Folks... We really must realize on who's our true enemy is, ?they? will exploit our weakness as soon as we reveal it.
As Applenut said.... perhaps you recall Pearl Harbor?
That stuff that Ari Fleischer was rattling about this morning (5-16) on the CNN White House Briefing was such a load of BS and deliberate lies. Whoever put that dolt in such a position of public responsibility needs firing. Now.
<a href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/f_a_zeitung_story.html"; target="_blank">http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/f_a_zeitung_story.html</a>;
<a href="http://izvestia.ru/rubr.cgi?id=5542&idr=523"; target="_blank">http://izvestia.ru/rubr.cgi?id=5542&idr=523</a>;
<strong>I've always thought the CIA/FBI BUSH knew of the plans, and they wanted it too happen. Maybe they underestimated the scale of the attack, but I was/am damn sure that they knew. Its all about money. A few thousand deaths are of no concern to governments (although for obvious reasons they'd never admit too this). Its all about money/oil and excuses to get Osama. The benefit to the US outweighs the losses as far as govn is concerned.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just can't accept that. Say what you want about Bush, but I simply cannot believe he could do that. In fact, I just can't believe our government would go that far.....
<strong>So let's think about this logically. Let's say the FBI knew that there was a chance someone was going to hijack a plane sometime around September 11th. What should they have done? Closed all the airports? No. Put sky marshals on all the planes? There weren't enough. Warn everyone that there might be terrorist activity sometime maybe? No.
Someone please suggest to us what they should have done with this information and stop complaining!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well for one, they should have put the airforce on alert so that if there was a hijacking they could get to it very quickly. If they knew that the WTC was a possible target (and any others) they should ahve had a contingency plan to protect it. They should have at least made the airports around major targets more secure and even put Air Marshals on planes with people of middle eastern desent on them...
there are a lot of things they could have done--but what did they do? NOTHING...
<strong>I'm shocked... </strong><hr></blockquote>
You probably are. This is pathetic. The one thing we knew on September 11 was that we had suffered an intelligence failure. Here we are now, 8 months later, and Fran is shocked (shocked, I tell you!) to discover that we had a what - an intelligence failure! I?d feel better if I thought you were being disingeuous, Fran, but you probably aren?t.
The FBI and the CIA knew of key elements of the plot but they clearly didn?t know enough or they would have stopped it. Maybe they should have been able to figure out what was in the wind. I think that?s something that can be argued with some conviction. That?s what they get paid to do after all. But all these half-wit conspiracy theories aren?t worth the time it takes to read them. And all you people who keep bringing up Pearl Harbor, what specifically are you alleging?
They knew about it. They didn't stop it. It WASN'T an intelligence failure. THEY HAD THE INTELLIGENCE! IT'S IN THEIR DOCUMENTS! They KNEW that terrorists were plotting to get hijack planes and fly them into buildings. They KNEW the suspected terrorists. They KNEW the terrorists were going to get on to planes!
This WASN'T an intelligence issue, it was the FBI and CIA NOT DOING THEIR JOBS!!!
<strong>
And all you people who keep bringing up Pearl Harbor, what specifically are you alleging?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Refer to this non-conspiracy page for the full story and great info.
<a href="http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html"; target="_blank">http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html</a>;
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
<strong>Folks, we are dealing with a giant international organization here. Who can do things more than anything that a small organization can do, and definetly more things than anything that a super power country can do.
Al-Qaeda isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
The United States of America isn't the one who is responsible behind all of this, though they are just one of the ?tools? by ?them?.
Folks... We really must realize on who's our true enemy is, ?they? will exploit our weakness as soon as we reveal it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So...who is "they" or "them"? People who misinterpret the evidence and twist the truth? Armchair generals, architects or forensics "experts"? The rumors and lies has reached idiocy...
<a href="http://www.linkydinky.com/20billsecrets.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.linkydinky.com/20billsecrets.shtml</a>;
Face it. They couldn't bring the Towers down the first time and went with "Plan B". They learned from their mistakes the first time and prepared their new "soldiers" well. This attack was a long and elabrate terrorist act that will baffle us for years to come.
Terrorists are dishonest, malicious and determined criminals. In fact, I get this feeling that another attack is coming soon...don't know where or when, but when we bicker and fall back into complacency
...that's when they stike again.
That's all I'll say on this subject. I lost a lot of faith in everything after 9|11.
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Artman @_@ ]</p>
<strong>
They knew about it. They didn't stop it. It WASN'T an intelligence failure. THEY HAD THE INTELLIGENCE! IT'S IN THEIR DOCUMENTS! They KNEW that terrorists were plotting to get hijack planes and fly them into buildings. They KNEW the suspected terrorists. They KNEW the terrorists were going to get on to planes!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fran, will you please pull your head out? Last August Bush received an intelligence briefing that Al Qaeda might try to hijack some planes. They didn't have any dates or targets or any idea about methods. Where in the documents was there any mention of box cutters? Where is there a mention of time and place? There was no way to even know if they were going to hijack a domestic plane or not. The next day the same briefing was passed on to the intelligence committees on Capitol Hill. Did these members of Congress also KNOW of the plot and do nothing?
The documents you are so hyperventilated about only show that they had some information. They were a step or two behind the bad guys. Nobody put all this information together. Gathering information is part of the job of intelligence. Clearly the FBI and the CIA had some success in this regard. They failed, however to properly analyze the data they had. That's the second and probably most important part of intelligence. Insist all you want that this wasn't an intelligence failure but that's what it was.
Guess what? I know that the terrorists aren't done with us yet. I KNOW something else is being planned. A hell of a lot of good that does me.
<strong>
Refer to this non-conspiracy page for the full story and great info.</strong>
<a href="http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html"; target="_blank">http://history.acusd.edu/gen/ww2timeline/RD-PEARL.html</a>;
<hr></blockquote>
Thank you. This is a very good precis of the events leading up to Peal Harbor but I don't think this history is what is being suggested by some of our posters.
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>
Guess what? We don't know! The only reason the document about Moussaui ever got out was because he is on trial and they are using it as evidence against him saying he was part of the 9/11 conspiracy. There could be other things we don't know about- that's why we need the investigation.