MS does understand this, which is why they are pushing the integration of the entire package. You may deride MS, and they may not pull it off, but, like Apple, they have an ecosystem that "works" together.
And very solid dev support. There's a ton of C# devs out there. Even more .NET devs when you lump in the VB and managed C/C++ coders.
It's interesting how pro-Apple mags like Engadget and Gizmodo are stoked about what M$ is bringing to the table.
Gizmodo? Pro-Apple? Have you even read Gizmodo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNSF
The fact that MSFT needs to spend upwards of $500 million is a symptom of a big big problem, not an indicator of enthusiasm or lofty goals.
The important thing is the comparison. Apple spends $500 M in a year - on ALL marketing. And that budget probably includes promotional materials, as well as advertising. Microsoft is going to spend that on ONE product (that doesn't even exist yet). I wonder how much Apple spent on the iPhone marketing? As a rough guess, I'd say probably 1/10 of what Microsoft is spending on the WinMo launch - yet Apple got far, far more buzz from their $50 M than MS will ever get from $500 M.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel001
WTF are "non-recurring engineering" costs, someone?
Sounds like Microsoft might be subsidizing handset manufacturers to design their phones. They're also subsidizing software developers to write for WinMo. I guess if you're desperate, anything goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppDev
It wp7 doesn't flop early, it's going to be more of a threat to android than to iphone or rim. It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out.
Exactly.
I'm sure that Apple will lose SOME customers for the sake of better Office integration (which I'd expect from WinMo). But the biggest losers will be Android and RIM.
This is the cue for MSFT stockholders to dump their holdings and run for the hills. What Microsoft is telling you is that right next to the bottomless pits labeled "XBox" and "Longhorn/Vista", they have a dug a fresh new hole named "Windows Phone 7" and they will (again) be dumping billions upon billions of stockholders' money into it for the next few years.
Just to put the ballanced view, Xbox is now - and has been for a some time - profitable. yes it has taken lots of investment (that's what big compaines do by the way.. invest in new markets they see as strategically important) but it gives Microsoft a place in the living room that Apple TV has yet to emulate.
Vista was a disaster from a marketing persective for sure.. (though it still sold a lot of copies).. Windows 7 however is a sales and marketing sucess, and is VERY profitable.
I know this is the place to big up Apple, and 'down' MSFT, but I'll yet again, point out that they're both very strong and sucsessful companies, and the market benifits from the opportunity for lots of competition ahead.
Win Phone 7 is indeed a big bet for Microsoft, and the odd's are probably stacked against it (it's way later than it should have been, but it is at leaset an innovative take on mobile -it's not fair for some posters above to claim it is a copy of Apple - the UI is quite unique (which may actualy be a problem for it, now the Apple style 'apps' interface is widely used and familier).
So for the more open minded of us, lets sit back and watch an interesting battle that will hopefully drive innovation and better products from all three phone developers (4 or 5 inyou inc. RIM and possibly HP).
Depends on your definition of doing well. Sure the Xbox is a popular gaming system, but they've never made any money off it. Not a penny. If they could leverage the Xbox to make money in other ways that might okay, but they haven't done that yet either.
Maybe this will change with WM7 though since Xbox will have some integration with WM7. Maybe finally things will start to come together... maybe.
That isn't true. The entertainment and devices devision at MS (of which the Xbox is the main product) actually does turn a profit now. Probably not enough to wipe out the R&D costs yet, but it will get there.
Sad to see so many doubters here (as usual). If any of you had actually seen demos or read about Win Phone you'd realise what a great take on the mobile OS it appears to be. In several crucial ways it makes iOS seem very dated, particularly in how it aggregates content from all your friends, be it status updates, photos, or whatever, from all popular social media sites. It's very clever and very unique.
It also has Xbox Live which should be a real focus on gaming, and of course achievements too.
Plus with multiple OEMs come multiple form factors, so we can presumably look forward to some nice big screen devices from HTC.
There is also the issue of eco system, which Apple famously has and Google famously don't. (outside of GMail etc) Microsoft have the excellent Zune desktop client, and the Zune store with Zune pass subscription.
As a pretty happy iPhone 4 owner even I'm tempted, although only if I could get Dodonpachi on Win Phone, as it just came out on iPhone and is ridiculously good.
That isn't true. The entertainment and devices devision at MS (of which the Xbox is the main product) actually does turn a profit now. Probably not enough to wipe out the R&D costs yet, but it will get there.
Well actually it is true. Last figure I remember was about $8 Billion, sunk into xBox. How long before Microsoft turns a REAL profit?
I'm not sure why so many are wishing MS to fail. That wouldn't be good for the mobile phone business. Competition is needed.
they won't fail. they may not do great but they will be around.
there is competition, its just floundering around a bit right now. if Android 3 does come out then you will see it. the iphone 4 wasn't really ALL THAT. nice touches and pretty, interesting hardware design but nothing that just makes one running android 2.2 go.. 'gee i really need to ditch this and get iphone 4'.
And gee...they seem to be making money off Live...
Try Googling the whole picture... Something along the lines of how much money they've spent on Xbox compared to how much revenue they've generated. The MSFT financial releases also have some good tidbits in them.
In some isolated quarters they've probably made some money, but in the long run they've not made any profit on Xbox. None. And that includes Xbox live.
Well actually it is true. Last figure I remember was about $8 Billion, sunk into xBox. How long before Microsoft turns a REAL profit?
As I said in a previous post, companies invest in business areas they see as important.. as long as they are profitable overall that is good business... you use your brand leaders to fund markets you know to be important in the long term.
Apple TV.. great case in point, not an Aple hit - yet, but they know they need to have more than just a Mac in the living room, if they are to leverage all the iTunes media, at a major point of consumption.
Microsoft sensibly do the same. Xbox may hove cost millions, but they now have a profitable division, but more importantly an ecosystem of developers, plus many loyal (young - consumer - non corporate) customers. That's good business, it build out your brand, and lets you leverage when entering (re entering) other markets - just as they are doing with Win Phone 7, and it's Xbox live integration.
So, think like a BIG buisness.. and recognise that investment is not the same as a loss. Microsoft are STILL more priofitable than Apple... so they can both afford to invest in new markets they feel important - and that's a good thing for us all.
As I said in a previous post, companies invest in business areas they see as important.. as long as they are profitable overall that is good business... you use your brand leaders to fund markets you know to be important in the long term.
Apple TV.. great case in point, not an Aple hit - yet, but they know they need to have more than just a Mac in the living room, if they are to leverage all the iTunes media, at a major point of consumption.
Microsoft sensibly do the same. Xbox may hove cost millions, but they now have a profitable division, but more importantly an ecosystem of developers, plus many loyal (young - consumer - non corporate) customers. That's good business, it build out your brand, and lets you leverage when entering (re entering) other markets - just as they are doing with Win Phone 7, and it's Xbox live integration.
So, think like a BIG buisness.. and recognise that investment is not the same as a loss. Microsoft are STILL more priofitable than Apple... so they can both afford to invest in new markets they feel important - and that's a good thing for us all.
i think apple edged out ms in profits recently? but regardless of that they are both running close together i think (profit wise)
Microsoft is only accelerating their demise. The more Ballmer is given opportunities to screw up, the more he will do so. MS can only ever "catch up" nearly 5 years behind the puck. They currently have no mndshare in this space. Android and iOS will decimate all competitors. I predict Ballmer will finally be fired after this one.
Sad to see so many doubters here (as usual). If any of you had actually seen demos or read about Win Phone you'd realise what a great take on the mobile OS it appears to be. In several crucial ways it makes iOS seem very dated, particularly in how it aggregates content from all your friends, be it status updates, photos, or whatever, from all popular social media sitesod.
You have to admit that MSFT has brought a lot of this doubt on themselves with their kin phone debacle so at least some of the doubt is well justified. If the new os is similar to that on their kin phone, to me, it would seem somewhat clunky but that is just me.
Have you actually played around with the new os or is all your experience with it from what others have written or from demos? I have seen some demos from MSFT for a iPad like device which were total mockups and there are still plenty of writers out there that still feel that MSFT can do no wrong so I really don't have a clue what MSFT is going to release this fall.
For a joke they seem to do awfully well for themselves. What's Apple's desktop OS share again?
Or did MS just achieve such total dominance through blind luck?
Silly logic.
First, neither company only sells desktop operating systems.
Second, the value of a company is NOT rated by market share alone. For example, Apple has less than 10% of PC sales, but something like 40% of the entire industry's profits. NO PC vendor makes more money than Apple even though 4 or 5 of them have a higher market share.
In terms of market capitalization (which is the market's assessment of the value of a company, Apple is more valuable than Microsoft - for all of Microsoft's market share.
Finally, claiming that Microsoft achieved dominance by offering a superior product is simply inane. There has never been a time when Microsoft's products were technically superior to anything Apple or other competitors offered. Rather, Microsoft achieved dominance largely by being in the right place at the right time and having the foresight to take advantage of that. Network effects did the rest.
but just because the going is tough, I wouldn't make the mistake of counting them out entirely. They have large cash reserves and the chutzpah to pull this off, if:
*******
They may even try to hedge Nokia out of the US market by offering a revamped feature phone that runs a small version of WinPhone7 just so they can count them as devices as well.
I agree. MS may be down right now but not out. They have the money to buy the market. It would not surprise me if MS offered users money to switch to WP7 - hey turn in your Google or Apple phone and we will replace it with a WP7 phone and give you a break on the monthly charges - and that could cost a lot of money but then MS has a lot of money.
MS will have a hard time convincing many handset manufacturers to use WP7 with offering them huge incentives. Many have already moved their development to Android and have no interest in paying royalties to MS.
Who knows MS may make WP7 "open" ? Does Balmer have the balls to do it?
As an iPhone owner, I'm looking forward to WP7 because it's the first real competition to Apple's dominance. It's interesting how pro-Apple mags like Engadget and Gizmodo are stoked about what M$ is bringing to the table. After running the demo, I have to admit that Apple's GUI seemed kind of dated.
What? Gizmodo is pro Apple? Is this the mirror universe?
And Engadget isn't pro-apple as well, they just get excited little easier with Apple products.
And WP7 will arrive dead on the market. Android was and still is the only real challenger.
I've always found it amusing in the way Microsoft always has to tell everybody exactly how much they're spending on their promotions. Last time it was their $300 million dollar Vista campaign. Again, why do we need to know how much they're spending? Are they trying to tell us that we should pay attention simply because they think it's important enough to spend X amount on?
Comments
MS does understand this, which is why they are pushing the integration of the entire package. You may deride MS, and they may not pull it off, but, like Apple, they have an ecosystem that "works" together.
And very solid dev support. There's a ton of C# devs out there. Even more .NET devs when you lump in the VB and managed C/C++ coders.
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html
It's interesting how pro-Apple mags like Engadget and Gizmodo are stoked about what M$ is bringing to the table.
Gizmodo? Pro-Apple? Have you even read Gizmodo?
The fact that MSFT needs to spend upwards of $500 million is a symptom of a big big problem, not an indicator of enthusiasm or lofty goals.
The important thing is the comparison. Apple spends $500 M in a year - on ALL marketing. And that budget probably includes promotional materials, as well as advertising. Microsoft is going to spend that on ONE product (that doesn't even exist yet). I wonder how much Apple spent on the iPhone marketing? As a rough guess, I'd say probably 1/10 of what Microsoft is spending on the WinMo launch - yet Apple got far, far more buzz from their $50 M than MS will ever get from $500 M.
WTF are "non-recurring engineering" costs, someone?
Sounds like Microsoft might be subsidizing handset manufacturers to design their phones. They're also subsidizing software developers to write for WinMo. I guess if you're desperate, anything goes.
It wp7 doesn't flop early, it's going to be more of a threat to android than to iphone or rim. It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out.
Exactly.
I'm sure that Apple will lose SOME customers for the sake of better Office integration (which I'd expect from WinMo). But the biggest losers will be Android and RIM.
This is the cue for MSFT stockholders to dump their holdings and run for the hills. What Microsoft is telling you is that right next to the bottomless pits labeled "XBox" and "Longhorn/Vista", they have a dug a fresh new hole named "Windows Phone 7" and they will (again) be dumping billions upon billions of stockholders' money into it for the next few years.
Just to put the ballanced view, Xbox is now - and has been for a some time - profitable. yes it has taken lots of investment (that's what big compaines do by the way.. invest in new markets they see as strategically important) but it gives Microsoft a place in the living room that Apple TV has yet to emulate.
Vista was a disaster from a marketing persective for sure.. (though it still sold a lot of copies).. Windows 7 however is a sales and marketing sucess, and is VERY profitable.
I know this is the place to big up Apple, and 'down' MSFT, but I'll yet again, point out that they're both very strong and sucsessful companies, and the market benifits from the opportunity for lots of competition ahead.
Win Phone 7 is indeed a big bet for Microsoft, and the odd's are probably stacked against it (it's way later than it should have been, but it is at leaset an innovative take on mobile -it's not fair for some posters above to claim it is a copy of Apple - the UI is quite unique (which may actualy be a problem for it, now the Apple style 'apps' interface is widely used and familier).
So for the more open minded of us, lets sit back and watch an interesting battle that will hopefully drive innovation and better products from all three phone developers (4 or 5 inyou inc. RIM and possibly HP).
Depends on your definition of doing well. Sure the Xbox is a popular gaming system, but they've never made any money off it. Not a penny. If they could leverage the Xbox to make money in other ways that might okay, but they haven't done that yet either.
Maybe this will change with WM7 though since Xbox will have some integration with WM7. Maybe finally things will start to come together... maybe.
That isn't true. The entertainment and devices devision at MS (of which the Xbox is the main product) actually does turn a profit now. Probably not enough to wipe out the R&D costs yet, but it will get there.
It also has Xbox Live which should be a real focus on gaming, and of course achievements too.
Plus with multiple OEMs come multiple form factors, so we can presumably look forward to some nice big screen devices from HTC.
There is also the issue of eco system, which Apple famously has and Google famously don't. (outside of GMail etc) Microsoft have the excellent Zune desktop client, and the Zune store with Zune pass subscription.
As a pretty happy iPhone 4 owner even I'm tempted, although only if I could get Dodonpachi on Win Phone, as it just came out on iPhone and is ridiculously good.
Microsoft is a joke.
It's not 'wishing'. It's called reading the writing on the wall. In this case, the letters are neon and twelve feet tall.
For a joke they seem to do awfully well for themselves. What's Apple's desktop OS share again?
Or did MS just achieve such total dominance through blind luck?
That isn't true. The entertainment and devices devision at MS (of which the Xbox is the main product) actually does turn a profit now. Probably not enough to wipe out the R&D costs yet, but it will get there.
Well actually it is true. Last figure I remember was about $8 Billion, sunk into xBox. How long before Microsoft turns a REAL profit?
I'm not sure why so many are wishing MS to fail. That wouldn't be good for the mobile phone business. Competition is needed.
they won't fail. they may not do great but they will be around.
there is competition, its just floundering around a bit right now. if Android 3 does come out then you will see it. the iphone 4 wasn't really ALL THAT. nice touches and pretty, interesting hardware design but nothing that just makes one running android 2.2 go.. 'gee i really need to ditch this and get iphone 4'.
Googling XBOX and Profit is pretty easy. The division was profitable in 2008 and 2009.
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/20346/...Year-in-a-Row/
And gee...they seem to be making money off Live...
Try Googling the whole picture... Something along the lines of how much money they've spent on Xbox compared to how much revenue they've generated. The MSFT financial releases also have some good tidbits in them.
In some isolated quarters they've probably made some money, but in the long run they've not made any profit on Xbox. None. And that includes Xbox live.
Well actually it is true. Last figure I remember was about $8 Billion, sunk into xBox. How long before Microsoft turns a REAL profit?
As I said in a previous post, companies invest in business areas they see as important.. as long as they are profitable overall that is good business... you use your brand leaders to fund markets you know to be important in the long term.
Apple TV.. great case in point, not an Aple hit - yet, but they know they need to have more than just a Mac in the living room, if they are to leverage all the iTunes media, at a major point of consumption.
Microsoft sensibly do the same. Xbox may hove cost millions, but they now have a profitable division, but more importantly an ecosystem of developers, plus many loyal (young - consumer - non corporate) customers. That's good business, it build out your brand, and lets you leverage when entering (re entering) other markets - just as they are doing with Win Phone 7, and it's Xbox live integration.
So, think like a BIG buisness.. and recognise that investment is not the same as a loss. Microsoft are STILL more priofitable than Apple... so they can both afford to invest in new markets they feel important - and that's a good thing for us all.
As I said in a previous post, companies invest in business areas they see as important.. as long as they are profitable overall that is good business... you use your brand leaders to fund markets you know to be important in the long term.
Apple TV.. great case in point, not an Aple hit - yet, but they know they need to have more than just a Mac in the living room, if they are to leverage all the iTunes media, at a major point of consumption.
Microsoft sensibly do the same. Xbox may hove cost millions, but they now have a profitable division, but more importantly an ecosystem of developers, plus many loyal (young - consumer - non corporate) customers. That's good business, it build out your brand, and lets you leverage when entering (re entering) other markets - just as they are doing with Win Phone 7, and it's Xbox live integration.
So, think like a BIG buisness.. and recognise that investment is not the same as a loss. Microsoft are STILL more priofitable than Apple... so they can both afford to invest in new markets they feel important - and that's a good thing for us all.
i think apple edged out ms in profits recently? but regardless of that they are both running close together i think (profit wise)
Sad to see so many doubters here (as usual). If any of you had actually seen demos or read about Win Phone you'd realise what a great take on the mobile OS it appears to be. In several crucial ways it makes iOS seem very dated, particularly in how it aggregates content from all your friends, be it status updates, photos, or whatever, from all popular social media sitesod.
You have to admit that MSFT has brought a lot of this doubt on themselves with their kin phone debacle so at least some of the doubt is well justified. If the new os is similar to that on their kin phone, to me, it would seem somewhat clunky but that is just me.
Have you actually played around with the new os or is all your experience with it from what others have written or from demos? I have seen some demos from MSFT for a iPad like device which were total mockups and there are still plenty of writers out there that still feel that MSFT can do no wrong so I really don't have a clue what MSFT is going to release this fall.
For a joke they seem to do awfully well for themselves. What's Apple's desktop OS share again?
Or did MS just achieve such total dominance through blind luck?
Silly logic.
First, neither company only sells desktop operating systems.
Second, the value of a company is NOT rated by market share alone. For example, Apple has less than 10% of PC sales, but something like 40% of the entire industry's profits. NO PC vendor makes more money than Apple even though 4 or 5 of them have a higher market share.
In terms of market capitalization (which is the market's assessment of the value of a company, Apple is more valuable than Microsoft - for all of Microsoft's market share.
Finally, claiming that Microsoft achieved dominance by offering a superior product is simply inane. There has never been a time when Microsoft's products were technically superior to anything Apple or other competitors offered. Rather, Microsoft achieved dominance largely by being in the right place at the right time and having the foresight to take advantage of that. Network effects did the rest.
but just because the going is tough, I wouldn't make the mistake of counting them out entirely. They have large cash reserves and the chutzpah to pull this off, if:
*******
They may even try to hedge Nokia out of the US market by offering a revamped feature phone that runs a small version of WinPhone7 just so they can count them as devices as well.
I agree. MS may be down right now but not out. They have the money to buy the market. It would not surprise me if MS offered users money to switch to WP7 - hey turn in your Google or Apple phone and we will replace it with a WP7 phone and give you a break on the monthly charges - and that could cost a lot of money but then MS has a lot of money.
MS will have a hard time convincing many handset manufacturers to use WP7 with offering them huge incentives. Many have already moved their development to Android and have no interest in paying royalties to MS.
Who knows MS may make WP7 "open" ? Does Balmer have the balls to do it?
How profoundly American to believe that excellence is a function of the aggressive application of enough money.
how profoundly pompous and naive to make blanket generalizations about an entire nation of people. apple is American, bitch.. gfy
As an iPhone owner, I'm looking forward to WP7 because it's the first real competition to Apple's dominance. It's interesting how pro-Apple mags like Engadget and Gizmodo are stoked about what M$ is bringing to the table. After running the demo, I have to admit that Apple's GUI seemed kind of dated.
What? Gizmodo is pro Apple? Is this the mirror universe?
And Engadget isn't pro-apple as well, they just get excited little easier with Apple products.
And WP7 will arrive dead on the market. Android was and still is the only real challenger.