I don't feel that Israel is threatened in any sense of actual destruction. Israel has defeated all of these nations before and Israel is only more powerful now. There is no reason to think that Israel has gotten weaker militarily. You guys even have nukes now.
Israel?s economy depends on foreign investment. The Arabs might not yet have succeeded in destroying Israel militarily, but they are doing a very good job at destroying Israel?s economy. They have scared away all foreign capital that otherwise would have flowed to Israel. In fact, they recently have picked up on this theme, and they and their sympathizers, have again called for economic boycotts of Israel. Some of the Scandinavian states were only too willing to oblige.
Therefore, your argument groverat is a somewhat shallow argument, because Israel *is* facing a serious challenge to its viability.
quote
For starters, give Palestine its land back and help form a Palestinian state as a gesture of good will.
Israel initially accepted the partition plan. So from 1947-1967 did Israel enjoy any measure of security? Why are you still arguing as though all this happens in a vacuum?
<strong>See? This thread is largely being ignored.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I must say I am amazed by people's ignorance and reluctance to negotiate the real issues in this conflict .. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
Why can't we have a serious informed debate about this ? why does everyone insist on ignoring the wider issues related to the middle east ... I mean Groverat was into serious discussion here and was saying lots of sensible and thought provoking stuff but where are all you other critics and smart people ? especially those who love to show up for a second spew some baseless crap and bugger off again....
. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
;D</strong><hr></blockquote>
Calm down Rashumon, the majority of the people of AI does not think that Israel is an evil racist apartheid state nor they think it's a beacon of freedom. If you post in a thread it's because (i hope) there is something interesting or funny (but it's not a good place for that : because the middle east situation is not funny) to say. I have watched this thread and the discussion between you and PC killa, i have watch also others discussions between you and others. Their knowledge of the situation and the history of Israel and Palestine go way further than mine. I have made some posts in other threads about the subject, but i do not like to post in that kind of threads where my nationality appears for certain people has a proof of rampant antisemitism.
So don't feel ofusced if there is not many people who participate to this thread, i love constructive discussion (like you) but i have very little taste for flamewar.
I must say I am amazed by people's ignorance and reluctance to negotiate the real issues in this conflict .. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
Why can't we have a serious informed debate about this ? why does everyone insist on ignoring the wider issues related to the middle east ... I mean Groverat was into serious discussion here and was saying lots of sensible and thought provoking stuff but where are all you other critics and smart people ? especially those who love to show up for a second spew some baseless crap and bugger off again....
Let's see you have a real debate ;D</strong><hr></blockquote>
So my suggestion that the PA is a corrupt "government" and a direct supporter of terrorism is "baseless crap" and that my suggestion that they create a government answerable to the people and gain control over their own country so a peace process can start with a country that's not a terrorist state is also "baseless crap" and the best thing I could do is "bugger off"? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
So my suggestion that the PA is a corrupt "government" and a direct supporter of terrorism is "baseless crap" and that my suggestion that they create a government answerable to the people and gain control over their own country so a peace process can start with a country that's not a terrorist state is also "baseless crap" and the best thing I could do is "bugger off"? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Off course not mate , I wasn't referring to you at all.. I was talking about people like SJO, Giant and mac's girl who in the past just showed up from the blue blasted with ridiculous accusations and then went away without proving or showing any interest in arguing their point.
I apologize if my post gives the impression that I'm criticizing anyone who has been interested in stating their opinions and was willing to stand up to them, that certainly wasn't my intention.
Thanx for pointing this out powerdoc and scott_h_phd.
You're joking right? Arafat is a terrorist. It's a total joke to think that Arafat was making anything other than a token effort againt terrorist. What's he going to do? Jail himself? Maybe he should do the right thing and put a gun to his head?
Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility.
Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. If people don't take the UN seriously, they simply need to take a look at the decisions they have made and the reasons will be apparent.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
[quote]Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility. <hr></blockquote>
Well, we all have to relize that this is a discussion on many levels. From bigtime world politics all down to basic human rights. And one of the main problems is how "others" use this conflics to further their own goals. From the far christian right of the west, to the dictatorships of the middle- and far-east. The conflict has been "used" (abused) as a battleground for international politics for too long, and it seems that many parties are more interested in keeping the conflict "alive", then solving it. Syria is definatly one of these. Since UN is as bad (or good) as the sum of its members, i guess we cannot expect it to be perfect.
But Groverat has a point. Israel could do a lot better to improve its image. Right now (particularly with the last Likud vote), its not very easy to see that Israel really wants peace as much as you claim. We do hold Israel to different standards thats true. But much of the reason for that is because we expected so much of Isreal. As a becon of democracy, as a nation of former oppressed people.
And I think people generally in the west is disapointed with Israel. Your argument is still "the other guys are worse". Fine, if they are, then Israel has to be better, not fight the battles on the terms of the extreemists.
Concerning the UN, both Israel and the US have played a good part in undermining of the UNs credibility.
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:
- This might suprise you, but the US on of the few western countries who still havn't ratified the UN declaration on childrens rights.
-The US has also refused to recognize the international tribunal against war criminals. (what way is that to fight terrorism?).
- No country in the world ows the UN more money than the US (put this improved a lot just after 9/11).
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:........
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well isn't this an obvious way to treat an organization which relentlessly condemns Israel on any occasion (regardless of its actions), is controlled by Israel's enemies, has barred it from its institutions and has never applied anything like the same standards to judge other nations (especially Arab states)....
I have given you a classic example above .. the UN human rights comity bothering to rebuke only three states in the past year for human right violations- Iraq, Sudan and Israel.. this is the most laughable fact in the world ! countries like China dare point the finger at Israel and Ignore the FAR more terrible things going on in other parts of the world. Another example was the UN convention against racism where an idea about a convention against racism and bigotry was hijacked by some of the world's most obscene anti-Semites ... trying to enshrine in UN docs stuff like the Jewish world conspiracy and defining Israel as an Apartheid state ... NO country apart from the US stood by Israel's side and pointed this travesty out - NO ONE ! , where was that famous scandinavian or European sense of justice then ?
There's lots more..... can you begin to understand why Israel assumes it will get a raw deal when it comes to the UN and therefore treats it like the shambolic mess that it is ?
As for the US I really don't know what you are talking about ... The US is the single largest contributor of funds to the UN ( despite its debts..) its always tried to uphold sensible issues and rejected rubbish ones that go against its interests .. whats wrong with that ?
The US spends the most resources in the world on Peace keeping missions and is actively involved in trying to mediate dozens of conflicts around the globe. Its one of the biggest contributors of funds to refugees and poor third world countries.
That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......
Well isn't this an obvious way to treat an organization which relentlessly condemns Israel on any occasion (regardless of its actions), is controlled by Israel's enemies, has barred it from its institutions and has never applied anything like the same standards to judge other nations (especially Arab states)...
Hey, Israel was created by the UN, and the UN is not controlled by israels enemies.
Quote:
I have given you a classic example above .. the UN human rights comity bothering to rebuke only three states in the past year for human right violations- Iraq, Sudan and Israel.. this is the most laughable fact in the world ! countries like China dare point the finger at Israel and Ignore the FAR more terrible things going on in other parts of the world.
I agree with you here. But as you see the two other countries were muslim contries, so its really not that black and white.
Quote:
Another example was the UN convention against racism where an idea about a convention against racism and bigotry was hijacked by some of the world's most obscene anti-Semites ... trying to enshrine in UN docs stuff like the Jewish world conspiracy and defining Israel as an Apartheid state ... NO country apart from the US stood by Israel's side and pointed this travesty out - NO ONE ! , where was that famous scandinavian or European sense of justice then ?
The conferance really wasn't that bad, and non of the statements you refer to would ever have made it into the final document. Leaving the conference liek that only made things worse. The US and Isreal on their high horse, refusing to even hear the critisism of their policies.
Quote:
As for the US I really don't know what you are talking about ... The US is the single largest contributor of funds to the UN ( despite its debts..) its always tried to uphold sensible issues and rejected rubbish ones that go against its interests .. whats wrong with that ?
Whats wrong with it that the UN should really be the force behind pushing the UN forward as the main tool in international cooperation and law, like the declaration for childrens rights, but instead it seems that the US is happy just
using the UN when they have their own specific political agenda.
Quote:
The US spends the most resources in the world on Peace keeping missions and is actively involved in trying to mediate dozens of conflicts around the globe. Its one of the biggest contributors of funds to refugees and poor third world countries.
Where do you get this number? is it compared to population and GNP?
Quote:
That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......
I'm not bashing the US, I'm just saying i'd love to see some more international engagement that isn't purely about protecting US security and interests. I'd love to see some real visions for international democratization. Not just critisism of the "poor" dictators with no oil...
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:
- This might suprise you, but the US on of the few western countries who still havn't ratified the UN declaration on childrens rights.
-The US has also refused to recognize the international tribunal against war criminals. (what way is that to fight terrorism?).
- No country in the world ows the UN more money than the US (put this improved a lot just after 9/11).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah. Good. I knew you would bring up this type of stuff. It prove you don't have a basic understanding of what you're saying. All of these things could undermine the credibility of the US and Israel. NOT the credibility of the UN. If the UN can't force Israel to do something it's not Israel's fault. It's the UNs. If the US does not ratify something it's not the UNs fault. Get it? If not stop posting.
<strong>[b]...Leaving the conference liek that only made things worse...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Boy? You blame Israel for everything don't you? Israel is supposed to stand there and eat **** so you can feel better about calling them racist while ignoring 100% completly the terrorist nations that want to recreate the holocaust in modern day Israel.
That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......</strong>
I'm not bashing the US, I'm just saying i'd love to see some more international engagement that isn't purely about protecting US security and interests. I'd love to see some real visions for international democratization. Not just critisism of the "poor" dictators with no oil...<hr></blockquote>
I would love to see some real vision for international democratization from Europe, Russia and the rest of UN members (not to mention middle eastern states) , i would like to see engagement by European nations in the middle east which is not based on narrow interests but is based on real justice and a fair solution to the historical problems of all sides. And I would love to see Europe live up to the standards they keep demanding from the US and Israel and stop kissing up to rich oil Arab interests and show some real leadership.
Instead of wasting everyone's time Europeans can start actualy thinking how they can make things better instead of simply criticizing the US forever...
Once all this will happen the UN will start to actually mean something.
You do have a point here, what goes for the US can be said for many European contries as well. But Europe does not act as one entity here. Britain is best buddy with the US, while france has to listen to a large arab minority. Scandinavia is the sits on its "high horse of moral", and so on. While the strongest support for Israel after WWII used to come from the labor governments of Europe, it now seems to come from the conservative right and the christian parties, and most forceably from the far right (!) and the ultra-christians. This has to bother you a bit, right?
Comments
I don't feel that Israel is threatened in any sense of actual destruction. Israel has defeated all of these nations before and Israel is only more powerful now. There is no reason to think that Israel has gotten weaker militarily. You guys even have nukes now.
Israel?s economy depends on foreign investment. The Arabs might not yet have succeeded in destroying Israel militarily, but they are doing a very good job at destroying Israel?s economy. They have scared away all foreign capital that otherwise would have flowed to Israel. In fact, they recently have picked up on this theme, and they and their sympathizers, have again called for economic boycotts of Israel. Some of the Scandinavian states were only too willing to oblige.
Therefore, your argument groverat is a somewhat shallow argument, because Israel *is* facing a serious challenge to its viability.
quote
For starters, give Palestine its land back and help form a Palestinian state as a gesture of good will.
Israel initially accepted the partition plan. So from 1947-1967 did Israel enjoy any measure of security? Why are you still arguing as though all this happens in a vacuum?
mika.
* <a href="http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813218966"; target="_blank">http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813218966</a>; *
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>See? This thread is largely being ignored.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I must say I am amazed by people's ignorance and reluctance to negotiate the real issues in this conflict .. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
Why can't we have a serious informed debate about this ? why does everyone insist on ignoring the wider issues related to the middle east ... I mean Groverat was into serious discussion here and was saying lots of sensible and thought provoking stuff but where are all you other critics and smart people ? especially those who love to show up for a second spew some baseless crap and bugger off again....
Let's see you have a real debate ;D
<strong>
. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
;D</strong><hr></blockquote>
Calm down Rashumon, the majority of the people of AI does not think that Israel is an evil racist apartheid state nor they think it's a beacon of freedom. If you post in a thread it's because (i hope) there is something interesting or funny (but it's not a good place for that : because the middle east situation is not funny) to say. I have watched this thread and the discussion between you and PC killa, i have watch also others discussions between you and others. Their knowledge of the situation and the history of Israel and Palestine go way further than mine. I have made some posts in other threads about the subject, but i do not like to post in that kind of threads where my nationality appears for certain people has a proof of rampant antisemitism.
So don't feel ofusced if there is not many people who participate to this thread, i love constructive discussion (like you) but i have very little taste for flamewar.
<strong>
I must say I am amazed by people's ignorance and reluctance to negotiate the real issues in this conflict .. the best thing most people on this forum can come up with is 'Israel is and Evil Racist Apartheid state and should stop oppressing the poor Palestinians NOW !' or 'Israel is a beacon of freedom and can do no wrong' ...
Why can't we have a serious informed debate about this ? why does everyone insist on ignoring the wider issues related to the middle east ... I mean Groverat was into serious discussion here and was saying lots of sensible and thought provoking stuff but where are all you other critics and smart people ? especially those who love to show up for a second spew some baseless crap and bugger off again....
Let's see you have a real debate ;D</strong><hr></blockquote>
So my suggestion that the PA is a corrupt "government" and a direct supporter of terrorism is "baseless crap" and that my suggestion that they create a government answerable to the people and gain control over their own country so a peace process can start with a country that's not a terrorist state is also "baseless crap" and the best thing I could do is "bugger off"? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>
So my suggestion that the PA is a corrupt "government" and a direct supporter of terrorism is "baseless crap" and that my suggestion that they create a government answerable to the people and gain control over their own country so a peace process can start with a country that's not a terrorist state is also "baseless crap" and the best thing I could do is "bugger off"?
Off course not mate
I apologize if my post gives the impression that I'm criticizing anyone who has been interested in stating their opinions and was willing to stand up to them, that certainly wasn't my intention.
Thanx for pointing this out powerdoc and scott_h_phd.
I hope I meet rashumon in real life one day, we can sit down and have a nice chat without all your morons crying and screaming in the wind.
<strong>well, to try and get this back on topic, comments on <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=166604&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">this</a> Rashumon? Scott?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting read .. but it seems that the <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=166544&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1 &contrassID=2" target="_blank">US Administration</a> is not that sure about its opinions either....
Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility.
<strong>
Interesting read .. but it seems that the <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=166544&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1 &contrassID=2" target="_blank">US Administration</a> is not that sure about its opinions either....
Anyway New , what do you think about all these sticky fingers poking the pie ? do you not see how complicated is this whole issue and how difficult it is to really pave a way out of this mess.. especially when all this violence is going on and any concession on either side will immediately be construed as a sign of weakness to be abused.
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. If people don't take the UN seriously, they simply need to take a look at the decisions they have made and the reasons will be apparent.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
I hear soo much criticism of Israel and how it should abide by what the UN says but at the same time you have terrorist states like Syria sitting in the security council ( from which Israel is barred ) and people like Zimbabwe , China, Russia and Algiers in the Human rights UN comity ... did you know that last year the only countries on the planet who were criticized for Human rights abuses were Israel and Sudan ? is that not the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard.... fine Israel is not a saint but to single it out for human rights violations when MEGA abusers ( like China, Zimbabwe etc....) are dealing the accusations .. and without any mention for any of the Arab world's many abuses....or any other state for that matter ......thats a mega farce ! and one that doesn't serve to improve the UN's credibility. <hr></blockquote>
Well, we all have to relize that this is a discussion on many levels. From bigtime world politics all down to basic human rights. And one of the main problems is how "others" use this conflics to further their own goals. From the far christian right of the west, to the dictatorships of the middle- and far-east. The conflict has been "used" (abused) as a battleground for international politics for too long, and it seems that many parties are more interested in keeping the conflict "alive", then solving it. Syria is definatly one of these. Since UN is as bad (or good) as the sum of its members, i guess we cannot expect it to be perfect.
But Groverat has a point. Israel could do a lot better to improve its image. Right now (particularly with the last Likud vote), its not very easy to see that Israel really wants peace as much as you claim. We do hold Israel to different standards thats true. But much of the reason for that is because we expected so much of Isreal. As a becon of democracy, as a nation of former oppressed people.
And I think people generally in the west is disapointed with Israel. Your argument is still "the other guys are worse". Fine, if they are, then Israel has to be better, not fight the battles on the terms of the extreemists.
Concerning the UN, both Israel and the US have played a good part in undermining of the UNs credibility.
<strong>
Concerning the UN, both Israel and the US have played a good part in undermining of the UNs credibility.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please provide details.
Originally posted by Scott:
quote:
Concerning the UN, both Israel and the US have played a good part in undermining of the UNs credibility.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Please provide details. <hr></blockquote>
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:
- This might suprise you, but the US on of the few western countries who still havn't ratified the UN declaration on childrens rights.
-The US has also refused to recognize the international tribunal against war criminals. (what way is that to fight terrorism?).
- No country in the world ows the UN more money than the US (put this improved a lot just after 9/11).
<strong>
Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:........
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well isn't this an obvious way to treat an organization which relentlessly condemns Israel on any occasion (regardless of its actions), is controlled by Israel's enemies, has barred it from its institutions and has never applied anything like the same standards to judge other nations (especially Arab states)....
I have given you a classic example above .. the UN human rights comity bothering to rebuke only three states in the past year for human right violations- Iraq, Sudan and Israel.. this is the most laughable fact in the world ! countries like China dare point the finger at Israel and Ignore the FAR more terrible things going on in other parts of the world. Another example was the UN convention against racism where an idea about a convention against racism and bigotry was hijacked by some of the world's most obscene anti-Semites ... trying to enshrine in UN docs stuff like the Jewish world conspiracy and defining Israel as an Apartheid state ... NO country apart from the US stood by Israel's side and pointed this travesty out - NO ONE ! , where was that famous scandinavian or European sense of justice then ?
There's lots more..... can you begin to understand why Israel assumes it will get a raw deal when it comes to the UN and therefore treats it like the shambolic mess that it is ?
As for the US I really don't know what you are talking about ... The US is the single largest contributor of funds to the UN ( despite its debts..) its always tried to uphold sensible issues and rejected rubbish ones that go against its interests .. whats wrong with that ?
The US spends the most resources in the world on Peace keeping missions and is actively involved in trying to mediate dozens of conflicts around the globe. Its one of the biggest contributors of funds to refugees and poor third world countries.
That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......
Well isn't this an obvious way to treat an organization which relentlessly condemns Israel on any occasion (regardless of its actions), is controlled by Israel's enemies, has barred it from its institutions and has never applied anything like the same standards to judge other nations (especially Arab states)...
Hey, Israel was created by the UN, and the UN is not controlled by israels enemies.
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I have given you a classic example above .. the UN human rights comity bothering to rebuke only three states in the past year for human right violations- Iraq, Sudan and Israel.. this is the most laughable fact in the world ! countries like China dare point the finger at Israel and Ignore the FAR more terrible things going on in other parts of the world.
I agree with you here. But as you see the two other countries were muslim contries, so its really not that black and white.
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Another example was the UN convention against racism where an idea about a convention against racism and bigotry was hijacked by some of the world's most obscene anti-Semites ... trying to enshrine in UN docs stuff like the Jewish world conspiracy and defining Israel as an Apartheid state ... NO country apart from the US stood by Israel's side and pointed this travesty out - NO ONE ! , where was that famous scandinavian or European sense of justice then ?
The conferance really wasn't that bad, and non of the statements you refer to would ever have made it into the final document. Leaving the conference liek that only made things worse. The US and Isreal on their high horse, refusing to even hear the critisism of their policies.
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As for the US I really don't know what you are talking about ... The US is the single largest contributor of funds to the UN ( despite its debts..) its always tried to uphold sensible issues and rejected rubbish ones that go against its interests .. whats wrong with that ?
Whats wrong with it that the UN should really be the force behind pushing the UN forward as the main tool in international cooperation and law, like the declaration for childrens rights, but instead it seems that the US is happy just
using the UN when they have their own specific political agenda.
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The US spends the most resources in the world on Peace keeping missions and is actively involved in trying to mediate dozens of conflicts around the globe. Its one of the biggest contributors of funds to refugees and poor third world countries.
Where do you get this number? is it compared to population and GNP?
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That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......
I'm not bashing the US, I'm just saying i'd love to see some more international engagement that isn't purely about protecting US security and interests. I'd love to see some real visions for international democratization. Not just critisism of the "poor" dictators with no oil...
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Well Israels disregard for the UN should be pretty obvious. To Israel the UN seems to play the same role as the two old guys on the balcony in Muppet show.
When it comes to the US I'll give you a couple of examples:
- This might suprise you, but the US on of the few western countries who still havn't ratified the UN declaration on childrens rights.
-The US has also refused to recognize the international tribunal against war criminals. (what way is that to fight terrorism?).
- No country in the world ows the UN more money than the US (put this improved a lot just after 9/11).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah. Good. I knew you would bring up this type of stuff. It prove you don't have a basic understanding of what you're saying. All of these things could undermine the credibility of the US and Israel. NOT the credibility of the UN. If the UN can't force Israel to do something it's not Israel's fault. It's the UNs. If the US does not ratify something it's not the UNs fault. Get it? If not stop posting.
<strong>[b]...Leaving the conference liek that only made things worse...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Boy? You blame Israel for everything don't you? Israel is supposed to stand there and eat **** so you can feel better about calling them racist while ignoring 100% completly the terrorist nations that want to recreate the holocaust in modern day Israel.
It's a blame the Jews and The US first world huh?
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That whole rhetoric ( which has become so frighteningly popular of late) of bashing the US in every opportunity and blaming it for every single problem out there is personally making me sick. so many countries owe the US their freedom and hope (including much of Europe) and the US by far has the most positive overall influence in the world. off course it makes lots of mistakes and causes **** loads of grief as well, but Europe does just as much crap and isn't even half as helpful as the US is.
Fair enough New, I accept and respect you for expecting higher standards from Israel or the US but you have to stay sensible and try not to loose sight of reason.... even when being critical......</strong>
I'm not bashing the US, I'm just saying i'd love to see some more international engagement that isn't purely about protecting US security and interests. I'd love to see some real visions for international democratization. Not just critisism of the "poor" dictators with no oil...<hr></blockquote>
I would love to see some real vision for international democratization from Europe, Russia and the rest of UN members (not to mention middle eastern states) , i would like to see engagement by European nations in the middle east which is not based on narrow interests but is based on real justice and a fair solution to the historical problems of all sides. And I would love to see Europe live up to the standards they keep demanding from the US and Israel and stop kissing up to rich oil Arab interests and show some real leadership.
Instead of wasting everyone's time Europeans can start actualy thinking how they can make things better instead of simply criticizing the US forever...
Once all this will happen the UN will start to actually mean something.