Report: Syria supplying long-range Katyushas to Hezbollah
By Ha'aretz Service
In recent weeks Syria has been manufacturing and supplying weapons, including long-range Katyusha rockets, directly to the militant Hezbollah organization in southern Lebanon, Channel One television reported Friday evening.
According to the report, the Syrians had been providing Hezbollah with weapons from Iran, but these weapons did not include long-range Katyusha rockets. In recent weeks, however, Damascus has begun supplying Hezbollah with Syrian-made Katyusha rockets with a range of 60-70 kilometers.
The report did not specify the amount of weapons supplied.
Since the IDF withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Hezbollah has carried out operations in the Shaba Farms area on a regular basis.
Ha'aretz reported in April that Israel believes that Syrian President Bashar Assad has changed his position toward Hezbollah - possibly on the assumption that Israel cannot afford a flare-up in the north.
This was in contrast to Syria's policy following the September 11 attacks in the U.S., when Damascus reined in Hezbollah and changed the weapons transportation routes to the organization so that the weapons no longer
This was in contrast to Syria's policy following the September 11 attacks in the U.S., when Damascus reined in Hezbollah and changed the weapons transportation routes to the organization so that the weapons no longer traveled through Syria.<hr></blockquote>
some day on the French radio of information : France Info i eard a journalist speakinf of Arafat : the journalist clearly stated that Arafat has a second army the Fatah wich commited many terrorisms acts.
He said also that there where support from 3 country : Saudi arabia (one of my favorite countrie in the world ...) , an another state (sorry but i forgot it) and IRAK, sadam give 15000 $ of compensation after each suicide attack.
Many palestinians see Arafat as a heroe, but he is totally lame and hypocryte. It will be difficult to have peace with him at the power. I do not appreciate Sharon my self (but i do not place him at the same level), but contrary to Palestine, Israel is a democratia and is leader will change in the future. I don't think that there can be peace with Arafat, but the only one who can remove him is the palestinians themselves. Many palestinians are too blinded by their hate agains Israel to see the true nature of Arafat. I have no doubt that with a better leader the situation will be much better.
It's stupid to call this a Sharon vs Arafat thing. Israel went through ..what?... 12 PMs with no peace with Arafat. What's the one constant over those years. Arafat.
Exile him now. He's a terrorist. We have the proof. Let Palestine have a political process like a normal country. I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. Then we'll see just what they Palestinian people will vote for.
[quote]I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. <hr></blockquote>
LOL. Indeed.
Candidate 1: "I promise to continue murdering the infidels" (applause)
Candidate 2: "I promise to bring an end to war and create a true Palestinian state" (more aplause)
Candidate 3 " I promise to publicly do what candidate #2 said, but privately and secretly do what candidate #1 said" (crowd erupts with pleasure....candidate three wins with an 80% margin).
I don´t have the time to get dragged in to yet another Israel/Palestine discussion right now (exams take too much time). But I...umm... stumbled across this picture of a beatiful Miss Israel.
Now if I was a palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank I would be rather puzzled about what Israels intentions is when someone representing Israel (yes she isn´t the prime minister but still...) is wearing a dress with a map like that on it. She was the only one to wear a map on her dress afaik so it sends an intended message unmistakenly IMO.
<strong>I don´t have the time to get dragged in to yet another Israel/Palestine discussion right now (exams take too much time). But I...umm... stumbled across this picture of a beatiful Miss Israel.
Now if I was a palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank I would be rather puzzled about what Israels intentions is when someone representing Israel (yes she isn´t the prime minister but still...) is wearing a dress with a map like that on it. She was the only one to wear a map on her dress afaik so it sends an intended message unmistakenly IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes I agree. When her children get blown up by a bomber I'll blame her for it then fund the Jew killers with my EU money.
[quote] Yes I agree. When her children get blown up by a bomber I'll blame her for it then fund the Jew killers with my EU money. <hr></blockquote>You continue to be as simplistic a thinker as ever. . . but now you do it with a series of letters behind it . . .
doesn't fool me though, its clear you still are as reactionary and monocular as ever.
The bombing MUST stop and I support the military actions by Sharon as they are responces to the bombings, however, that does not mean that I should support Israel's tacit acceptance of the settlements, and, the manner in which the settlers treat the Palastinians, and also, the continued expansion of those settlements.
Look at that map, it seems to imply that the state of Israel includes all of the land of the Palastinians.... what would that say if that were truly intended as such? where is the Palastinian state in that map? Perhaps it is merely an innocent gesture meant to show where she is from?!?!
Then again maybe it reveals some kind of psuedo-mythic religious thinking that she is Miss Israel representing all Israely women and therefore she is metaphorically the Israely Motherland . . . I say this, which sounds like the kind of crazy earth and soil mysticism of teh Nazis, because I KNOW that a majority of the settlers believe that kind of extreme stuff, in an interview with settlers one said: " I look at the Jews building here and I see Messiah awakening" . . . . . . this of course was ensconced amid much rhetoric about the literal non-humanness of Arabs.
anyway . . it is possible to support Israel, as I do, but still find this kind of take disturbing . . . and I think that it would be partly criminal to pretend that there is absolutely no injustice taking place .. . . on both sides.
<strong>It's stupid to call this a Sharon vs Arafat thing. Israel went through ..what?... 12 PMs with no peace with Arafat. What's the one constant over those years. Arafat.
Exile him now. He's a terrorist. We have the proof. Let Palestine have a political process like a normal country. I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. Then we'll see just what they Palestinian people will vote for.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dude .. most Isarelis would agree with you there .. the guy is nothing but trouble.. has always been ....without him Palestinians could have had a state ages ago.. trouble is - your dear secretary of state insists on protecting him... and so does every EU politicians out there .... israel can't expel him without support from the US nor can it select the Palestinian's leaders for them.... its a F***** up prblem !
Analysis / U.S. impatience with Arafat could spur new IDF attack
By Bradley Burston, Ha'aretz Correspondent
Thirty-five years to the hour of the outbreak of a war that Israelis hoped would end all Mideast wars, a bomb-hauling Islamic Jihad suicide driver incinerated a crowded commuter bus Wednesday near the traditional site of the end of the world, killing at least 16 people and fueling fears of a Palestinian "megaterror" attack still in the works.
But with few tangible signs of progress in CIA Director George Tenet's mission to persuade Yasser Arafat to reform his security services into structures that could block attacks on Israelis, there were signs that Washington might relax its restraints on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government, with a new IDF onslaught in the territories a possible consequence.
Israel's chief of military intelligence said on the eve of the suicide car bombing that militant Palestinian groups were planning "megaterror" attacks to raise the ante of attacks within the Jewish state.
His words were underscored by a high-profile major exercise by rescue services near Tel Aviv Tuesday. The chilling scenario of the simulated terror strike: an airplane clashes into a skyscraper, whose foundations are undermined by a simultaneous car bomb in its underground parking garage, and whose tenants are further placed at peril by an explosive device planted in an upper story.
Analysts said 'megaterror' could spell deaths in the hundreds, or even thousands, in one of the world's most volatile military theaters.
As if the point needed further amplification, the Wednesday attack took place near Har Megiddo, or Armeggedon, site of countless ancient battles between implacable enemies, and by some traditions, the launch site of the end of the world.
The Islamic Jihad operation was much more powerful in scope than past attacks involving a bomb belt secreted on the body of a suicide attacker. Some analysts viewed it as the forerunner of horrendous megaterror attempts, such as the reported bid to detonate a full ton of explosives under the Twin Tower-like silhouette of Tel Aviv's 50-story Azrieli Center.
But if Israelis were consumed with doomsday worries, Palestinian anxieties were at high pitch as well.
In the past, devastating suicide bombings involving scores of casualties have prompted the White House to gave a tacit green light to its ally Israel, which then launched massive retaliatory strikes against Palestinian targets, often concentrating its firepower on the very Palestinian Authority security agencies that Israel held responsible for preventing terrorism.
A Palestinian official in Ramallah was quoted Wednesday as saying that Tenet had told Arafat that if terror attacks continue, the beleaguered Palestinian leader "will stand alone before Sharon's might." Tenet was said to have warned Arafat that "the United States will not intervene, and Sharon will have a free hand."
Israeli fears also underscored the nation's distance from the elation that had characterized the victory in 1967 over its Arab neighbors. Fearing that an Arab victory could mean a reprise of the World War Two Nazi Holocaust that saw the annihilation of European Jewry, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike that crippled Arab air capabilities, and led to the capture of the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, and East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan.
In the space of six days, Israel went from being the world's largest ghetto to the world's newest empire. Asked Wednesday if Israel believed at the time that it had seen the last of its many wars, former air force chief Mordechai Hod said "We weren't sure, but we hoped so." In the end, however, as the territories turned into a liability rather than a blessing, Hod acknowledged, the war justified the designation, "the curse of having been blessed."
Senior Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat picked up the theme, saying that Israel's recent military operations had failed to yield anything other than Palestinian rage, the ultimate driving-force behind terrorism.
"Today, June 5, marks 35 years of the continuing Israeli occupation, with no end in sight." Erekat said, adding that Israel should move back to the negotiating table, rather than back into Palestinian cities. "The Israeli army carried out 93 military incursions in the West Bank last month alone, and they get these results."
Israel had seen to it that the Palestinian Authority was powerless to stand in the way of militant attacks on Israel, Erekat told CNN. "The Israeli army is in total control of the West bank. We have no authority any more, and that's very sure. We have the tightest closure and siege ever, where movement of Palestinians is prevented anywhere, and then these things (attacks) happen, and they blame us."
But Education Minister Limor Livnat of Sharon's ruling Likud said Wednesday that Israel would likely have no choice but to re-enter Palestinian cities and stay to fight there for prolonged periods.
"There is no doubt that Israel cannot sit quietly, and refrain from considering an operation, a very, very significant response, in order to prevent disasters of this type," she said.
As Livnat spoke, IDF forces entered the West Bank city of Jenin, a hotbed of Islamic Jihad militancy, in what Israeli officials called an "initial response" to the bus bombing.
Sharon is scheduled to meet President George W. Bush at the White House on June 10. His previous visit, a month before, was curtailed by a suicide bombing in a Tel Aviv suburb which took the lives of 15 people.
The prime minister might also cut short the upcoming visit, notes Ha'aretz commentator Akiva Eldar, but he is unlikely to cancel it, coming as it does on the heels of a scheduled White House visit by Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. As of now, Washington generally agrees with Egypt that Sharon is mistaken in calling for the sidelining of Arafat as a pre-condition for any future diplomatic progress.
"It may be, however, that this attack could spark a change in the American's viewpoint, and cause the Americans to move closer to the prime minister's point of view." In any event, Eldar argues, "After President Bush's meeting with Mubarak, Prime Minister Sharon will want to be the last person that the president hears from on these matters.
"It may be, however, that this attack could spark a change in the American's viewpoint, and cause the Americans to move closer to the prime minister's point of view." In any event, Eldar argues, "After President Bush's meeting with Mubarak, Prime Minister Sharon will want to be the last person that the president hears from on these matters.
Israel's response to the bus bombing from the peace loving Arabs. Arafat plays the victim. My favorite quote:
[quote]Pointing to his dust-covered bed, broken bedroom mirror and shattered bathroom tiles, Arafat later suggested Israel was trying to harm him. "I was supposed to sleep here last night but I had some work downstairs," he said. "Of course they (the Israelis) knew where I was. Everybody knows this is my bedroom."<hr></blockquote>
[quote]"What is to become of the Palestinians?" "Oh," Sharon said, "we'll make a pastrami sandwich of them." I said, "What?" He said, "Yes, we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in twenty-five years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart".<hr></blockquote>
Winston S. Churchill III (journalist, former member of Parliament, and grandson of the British prime minister) at the National Press Club, October 10, 2001, recalling his conversation with then-General (res.) Ariel Sharon in 1973.
<strong>Talking about quotes, I came over this one today:............................................ .........
........... Ariel Sharon in 1973.[/i]
The man with the plan...
[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats says what exactly ? a vague quote from 30 years ago ? you can probably dig up dodgy quotes from anyone.. proves nothing about things today !
How about these ones of Arafat if it's quotes we're into :
[quote]
The ensuing article, entitled: "Arafat's Secret Agenda Is to Wear Israelis Out" appeared in the April 1, 1996 issue of Insight magazine in Washington D.C. written by this correspondent. Additional comments follow the article:
In the dark shadow of horrific suicide bombings in Israel carried out by Hamas terrorists operating from the safe haven of Mr. Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA), an Israeli government which had asserted that the leopard of the Palestine Liberation Organization had changed its spots, finds itself questioning its basic premise: Does Yasser Arafat really believe in the peace process with Israel, and what are his true intentions?
According to reports of an unpublicized January meeting between Mr. Arafat and Swedish-based Arab diplomats in Stockholm, Arafat estimates that the final-stage agreements between the Palestinians and Israel will ultimately bring about Israel's collapse. He reportedly told the diplomats that a migration of Arabs to "the West Bank and Jerusalem" and the psychological warfare the Palestinians would wage against the Israelis would cause a massive emigration of Jews to the United States. "We Palestinians will takeover everything, including all of Jerusalem," the PLO leader declared, claiming Israeli leaders "Peres and Beilin have already promised us half of Jerusalem. The Golan Heights have already been given away, subject to just a few details."
"We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps," Arafat reportedly declared. "Within five years, we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbeks and Ukranians as Jews, we can import all kinds of Arabs to us." He added that the PLO plans "to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews won't want to live among us Arabs."
Mr. Arafat's meeting took place on January 30th, in Stockholm's Grand Hotel shortly after an official state dinner in his honor sponsored by Sweden's Foreign Minister. Unlike the "Jihad" speech given by Mr. Arafat in a Johannesburg mosque two years ago, no recording exists. However, an investigation by Israel's Channel 7 (Arutz Sheva) Radio news (which also released the Johannesburg tape) has confirmed the existence and authenticity of a transcript, as have Swedish sources and Murray Kahl, editor of Israeli & Global News. Channel 7 broadcast excerpts on Feb. 14th.
The next day, the Israeli Hebrew language dailies Ha'aretz and Ma'ariv both ran the story quoting Channel 7 Radio, and Ma'ariv translated the radio report to Arabic and passed it on to Arafat's office in Gaza requesting comment. Arafat told Ma'ariv that the story was "not true and not accurate." He then admitted that the secret meeting had, in fact, occurred but claimed the Arab ambassadors came on their own initiative to congratulate him on his boldness in pursuing peace with Israel and his victory in the Palestinian elections. [Mr. Arafat failed to explain, why, if the meeting's content was as he alleged, it was kept such a secret until Arutz 7's broadcast exposed its having took place. YA]
Two days later, the conservative Norwegian newspaper Dagen published new details regarding Arafat's speech under a front-page headline declaring: "Arafat Gave Speech about Israel's Destruction." The Jerusalem Post ran the story Feb. 23, and on Feb. 24, the Swedish weekly Magazinet published excerpts from the speech. Meanwhile, three prominent Israeli writers, Chaim Guri, Aharon Amir and Aharon Meged took note of the Channel 7 and Dagen's reportage and published articles in leading Israeli newspapers expressing deep concern [over Arafat's true intentions and the Peres government's inability to recognize them. YA] <hr></blockquote>
Or this:
[quote]In a November 1995 radio address:"The struggle will continue until ALL of Palestine is liberated."<hr></blockquote>
or this ?...
[quote]When we stopped the intifada we did not stop the jihad to establish Palestine with Jerusalem as our capital.... We know only one word: jihad, jihad, jihad ... We are in a conflict with the Zionist movement, the Balfour Declaration, and all imperialist activity." Yasser Arafat, Daheisha refugee camp. (Yediot Ahronot, Oct 23) <hr></blockquote>
or what about this :
(excerpts from a speech given by PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat on May 10, 1994, in a mosque in Johannesburg)
[quote]The Jihad [Islamic holy war] will continue, and Jerusalem is not [only] for the Palestinian people, it is for all the Muslim nation.
You are responsible for Palestine and for Jerusalem before me [applause], the land which had been blessed for the whole world.
Now after this agreement you have to understand our main battle.
Our main battle is Jerusalem. Jerusalem. The first shrine of the Moslems.
This has to be understood for everybody and for this I was insisting before signing to have a letter from them, the Israelis, that Jerusalem is one of the items which has to be under discussion and not the state, the permanent State of Israel! No! It is the permanent State of Palestine [applause]. Yes, it is the permanent State of Palestine.
And in this letter it is very important for everybody to know I insist to mention and they have written it, and I have this letter, I didn't declare and publish it until now. In this letter we are responsible for all the Christian and the Moslem and Islamic holy sacred places.
I have to speak frankly, I can't do it alone without the support of the Islamic nation. I can't do it alone. No, you have to come and to fight and to start the Jihad to liberate Jerusalem, your first shrine.
In the agreement I insist with my colleagues, with my brothers, to mention that not exceeding the beginning of the third year, and after -- directly after -- the signing of their agreement, to start discussing the future of Jerusalem. The future of Jerusalem.
What they are saying is that [Jerusalem] is their capital. No, it is not their capital. It is our capital. It is the first shrine of the Islam and the Moslems.
This agreement, I am not considering it more than the agreement which had been signed between our prophet Mohammed and Koraish, and you remember the Caliph Omar had refused this agreement and [considered] it a despicable truce.
[Ed. note: The agreement with Koraish allowed Mohammed to pray in Mecca, which was under Koraish control, for ten years. When Mohammed grew stronger two years later, he abrogated the agreement, slaughtered the tribe of Koraish and conquered Mecca.] <hr></blockquote>
[quote]"Be blessed, O Gaza, and celebrate, for your sons are returning after a long celebration. O Gaza, your sons are returning. O Jaffa, O Lod, O Haifa, O Jerusalem, you are returning, you are returning."
--- P.L.O. Chairman Yasser Arafat, at a reception held in his honor in Gaza (Maariv, 7 September 1995) <hr></blockquote>
[quote]"Yes, we are proud of the Palestinian girl, the Palestinian woman and the Palestinian child who fulfilled these miracles. The Palestinian woman participated in the Palestinian revolution. The Palestinian girl participated in the Palestinian revolution. Abir al-Wahidi, commander of the central region [al-Wahidi participated in the murder of Israeli Zvi Klein in December 1991] and Dalal al-Maghrabi, Martyr of Palestine [al-Maghrabi took part in the Coastal Road Massacre in March 1978, in which 37 Israelis were killed]. I bow in respect and admiration to the Palestinian woman who receives her martyred son with joyful cheering. The soul and blood for you, O Palestine!"
--- P.L.O. Chairman Yasser Arafat, in a speech given on 3 September 1995 at the al-Fatah girls school in Gaza to mark the opening of the school year (Israel Channel Two Television, 19 September 1995) <hr></blockquote>
HAPPY ??
Have you found a solution yet ? ...Apart from blaming it all on Sharon ?
You have gone a bit quite ? mind you all those quotes are from the years Arafat refers to as the "time of the peace of the brave" when moderate Labor PM's Rabin and Peres were in power in Israel and the Oslo process was at its peak !
Its clear that Arafat has had a clear agenda since then and that his final Aim was/is the destruction of Israel and its people !
How can you seriously expect any sensible self preserving Israeli to take this man seriously or to be willing to give in to even an inch of his demands when its so clear what his ultimate goal is ?
Well, beeing self-employed, and a father sometimes take up most of the day...
[quote] mind you all those quotes are from the years Arafat refers to as the "time of the peace of the brave" when moderate Labor PM's Rabin and Peres were in power in Israel and the Oslo process was at its peak !
Its clear that Arafat has had a clear agenda since then and that his final Aim was/is the destruction of Israel and its people !<hr></blockquote>
Still think I'm a big fan of Arafat do you?
I won't even waste your time starting on those quotes. My regard for him is limited to accepting him as the choosen leader of the palestinians, and the negotiation partner of Sharon, I'm actually more concerned with the human rights of the palestinian people...
My point is that Sharon has had his "ultimate" goals for all these years, and even if you won't admit it, you can see these policies beeing put into life every day. Stop hiding behind Arafat, he'll be replaced in time anyway.
I won't even waste your time starting on those quotes. My regard for him is limited to accepting him as the choosen leader of the palestinians, and the negotiation partner of Sharon, I'm actually more concerned with the human rights of the palestinian people...
My point is that Sharon has had his "ultimate" goals for all these years, and even if you won't admit it, you can see these policies beeing put into life every day. Stop hiding behind Arafat, he'll be replaced in time anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Still think I'm a big fan of Sharon do you ?
Stop hiding behind Sharon he'll be replaced soon by democratic elections.....Arafat on the other hand.... will stay as the destroyer of the Palestinians .... on and on and on and on and on.........he's just finished his much anticipated reforms ...... LOL, what a clown nothing has changed .. Israelis and plestinians are still dying daily
[quote]Originally posted by New: <strong>LOLL, good reply! If this is your view, than you have certainly wasted a lot of time making excuses for the settlement policy...</strong><hr></blockquote>
What the hell ???
Where have I made excuses for the settlement policy ?
What are you talking about ?
You insult me with this twisting of facts !
Indeed I have repeatedly said that I believe the settlement policy to be Israel's greatest mistake .. read my posts and don't misquote me please ! <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
What I did say was that there can be no moral equivalence between settlers and terrorists !
I have also said that ( and proved that point on many occasions) Arafat is a plain liar and a terrorist and that he has missed every chance to gain Palestinian statehood or advancement for his people - He has a clear and obvious aim which is the ultimate destruction of my country .. and you expect me to accept him as a peace partner ...LOL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
You keep going back to the point of the settlements as if you believe that by some miracle the removal of these would make the Arab world suddenly accept Israel ( which for most Arabs is itself a one big settlement) and bring peace and stability to the region - a peace which this region has never seen, even long before any settlements were built.
Arafat and the PLO have been calling for the destruction of Israel long before 67 and so did and still does Syria (Which is chairing the security council these days BTW)...
New, if you care so much about injustice why is it the you don't care about all these facts , why is it that you don't really care about the rights of the Israeli civilians who die daily ?
It's clear that a withdrawal like the one you propose would lead to an increase in terror attacks on civilians ... Arafat would be vindicated, he would have finally found the way to remove the Israeli presence form their Palestine ... keep using terror and slowly the Israelis would retreat until there is no where to go for them .... Arafat himself has pretty much spelt this tactic out in the quotes I posted above..
What hope do you offer Israelis with the 'pack up and get out' approach you suggest for Israel ?
Many Israel Defense Forces officers agree that it would be better to shorten the lines in the territories - that is, to give up on isolated settlements and withdraw from certain areas. But I have not found a single senior officer with any influence on the decision-making process who thinks that we should do this in the current situation, because the Palestinians, and the Arabs in general, would interpret it as a military victory.
In this context, the withdrawal from Lebanon is always mentioned. We viewed this as a move that would have a calming influence on the military conflict - but the Arabs saw it as a victory, and that influenced them to support the Palestinians in a military confrontation with Israel. It is no surprise that the evacuation of isolated settlements is not currently being discussed by the general staff.
Even former prime minister Ehud Barak, who led the withdrawal from Lebanon and supports separation as a strategic necessity, now says that for the time being, all we should do is decide which isolated settlements should someday be evacuated - primarily so that their residents can be informed, and will be ready to be evacuated when the time comes.
There are also Palestinian personalities who say it would be a mistake for Israel to implement a unilateral evacuation today, because such a step would strengthen the extremists and give great encouragement to Hamas and all the others who want to continue the military confrontation. Evacuation without an agreement is thus liable to result in stepped-up military pressure by the Palestinians.
But despite all this, it is clear that Israel is approaching the stage at which it can no longer postpone a crucial decision on this issue. The decision to build a fence along the border was also deferred for many months for fear that it would be viewed as a retreat under pressure to the 1967 borders. But just as it did with the fence, the moment will come when we will have to choose a certain path even though it is not an ideal response to every operational problem.
In the case of the isolated settlements, it will be necessary to decide which consideration outweighs the others, while taking into account the psychological effect on the Arabs and the negative impact evacuation is liable to have on negotiations. The defense establishment must first of all weigh the operational considerations. For the IDF, which is crying out for more operational manpower, this is the critical issue. In Gaza, for instance - where there is a shortage of forces in reserve - every isolated settlement requires a battalion. There are more soldiers than settlers.
One phenomenon that is bringing the day of decision closer is the tricks the settlers are using in order deceive, not the Arabs, but the defense establishment - to wit, the illegal outposts. These outposts (which admittedly are not always isolated, but are often set up near a large settlement) are constantly being reestablished, until in the end, the army is forced to defend them even though they are illegal.
The settlers, who view refusing to build a fence around their towns as a show of ideological muscle, are thereby intensifying the tragic conflict. The cat-and-mouse games with the settlers, who circumvent the law and the army's orders, are contemptible - and they also make the military struggle more difficult.
Yasser Arafat had a chance to create a situation in which Israel would have been compelled to freeze the settlements in the framework of the Mitchell plan. But the continuation of the violence was more important to Arafat than a settlement freeze, even though he would have enjoyed broad American and international support on this issue. Today, the chances of a comprehensive agreement with the Palestinians, within whose framework we could deal with the settlements, including the isolated ones, are slim.
In this situation, there are two alternatives that have yet to be thoroughly discussed. One is to evacuate civilians from isolated settlements and put the army in their place until comprehensive negotiations are opened. The evacuees could be absorbed into settlements that are part of the settlement blocs outlined in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's bridging proposal, or they could accept compensation and relocate in Israel.
The second possibility depends on the start of negotiations. In this case, it would be possible to reach an understanding at the outset on coordinated unilateral moves: Israel would evacuate certain isolated settlements, and the Palestinians would turn illegal weapons over to international observers. But it is clear that such coordinated unilateral steps have no chance of
The second possibility depends on the start of negotiations. In this case, it would be possible to reach an understanding at the outset on coordinated unilateral moves: Israel would evacuate certain isolated settlements, and the Palestinians would turn illegal weapons over to international observers. But it is clear that such coordinated unilateral steps have no chance of becoming reality if the fighting continues in its current form.<hr></blockquote>
I would still like to see some meaningful reply from you for my question if you care to do that
Comments
another interesting <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=171675&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">article</a>...
[quote]
Report: Syria supplying long-range Katyushas to Hezbollah
By Ha'aretz Service
In recent weeks Syria has been manufacturing and supplying weapons, including long-range Katyusha rockets, directly to the militant Hezbollah organization in southern Lebanon, Channel One television reported Friday evening.
According to the report, the Syrians had been providing Hezbollah with weapons from Iran, but these weapons did not include long-range Katyusha rockets. In recent weeks, however, Damascus has begun supplying Hezbollah with Syrian-made Katyusha rockets with a range of 60-70 kilometers.
The report did not specify the amount of weapons supplied.
Since the IDF withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Hezbollah has carried out operations in the Shaba Farms area on a regular basis.
Ha'aretz reported in April that Israel believes that Syrian President Bashar Assad has changed his position toward Hezbollah - possibly on the assumption that Israel cannot afford a flare-up in the north.
This was in contrast to Syria's policy following the September 11 attacks in the U.S., when Damascus reined in Hezbollah and changed the weapons transportation routes to the organization so that the weapons no longer
This was in contrast to Syria's policy following the September 11 attacks in the U.S., when Damascus reined in Hezbollah and changed the weapons transportation routes to the organization so that the weapons no longer traveled through Syria.<hr></blockquote>
He said also that there where support from 3 country : Saudi arabia (one of my favorite countrie in the world ...) , an another state (sorry but i forgot it) and IRAK, sadam give 15000 $ of compensation after each suicide attack.
Many palestinians see Arafat as a heroe, but he is totally lame and hypocryte. It will be difficult to have peace with him at the power. I do not appreciate Sharon my self (but i do not place him at the same level), but contrary to Palestine, Israel is a democratia and is leader will change in the future. I don't think that there can be peace with Arafat, but the only one who can remove him is the palestinians themselves. Many palestinians are too blinded by their hate agains Israel to see the true nature of Arafat. I have no doubt that with a better leader the situation will be much better.
We badly need peace and these two dont seem to be very interested in this...
<strong>powerdoc , re Sharon and Arafat ..... couldent have said it better myself ... good points
We badly need peace and these two dont seem to be very interested in this...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks, rashumon, it's alway a pleasure to participate to constructive threads
Exile him now. He's a terrorist. We have the proof. Let Palestine have a political process like a normal country. I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. Then we'll see just what they Palestinian people will vote for.
LOL. Indeed.
Candidate 1: "I promise to continue murdering the infidels" (applause)
Candidate 2: "I promise to bring an end to war and create a true Palestinian state" (more aplause)
Candidate 3 " I promise to publicly do what candidate #2 said, but privately and secretly do what candidate #1 said" (crowd erupts with pleasure....candidate three wins with an 80% margin).
Now if I was a palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank I would be rather puzzled about what Israels intentions is when someone representing Israel (yes she isn´t the prime minister but still...) is wearing a dress with a map like that on it. She was the only one to wear a map on her dress afaik so it sends an intended message unmistakenly IMO.
<strong>I don´t have the time to get dragged in to yet another Israel/Palestine discussion right now (exams take too much time). But I...umm... stumbled across this picture of a beatiful Miss Israel.
Now if I was a palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank I would be rather puzzled about what Israels intentions is when someone representing Israel (yes she isn´t the prime minister but still...) is wearing a dress with a map like that on it. She was the only one to wear a map on her dress afaik so it sends an intended message unmistakenly IMO.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes I agree. When her children get blown up by a bomber I'll blame her for it then fund the Jew killers with my EU money.
doesn't fool me though, its clear you still are as reactionary and monocular as ever.
The bombing MUST stop and I support the military actions by Sharon as they are responces to the bombings, however, that does not mean that I should support Israel's tacit acceptance of the settlements, and, the manner in which the settlers treat the Palastinians, and also, the continued expansion of those settlements.
Look at that map, it seems to imply that the state of Israel includes all of the land of the Palastinians.... what would that say if that were truly intended as such? where is the Palastinian state in that map? Perhaps it is merely an innocent gesture meant to show where she is from?!?!
Then again maybe it reveals some kind of psuedo-mythic religious thinking that she is Miss Israel representing all Israely women and therefore she is metaphorically the Israely Motherland . . . I say this, which sounds like the kind of crazy earth and soil mysticism of teh Nazis, because I KNOW that a majority of the settlers believe that kind of extreme stuff, in an interview with settlers one said: " I look at the Jews building here and I see Messiah awakening" . . . . . . this of course was ensconced amid much rhetoric about the literal non-humanness of Arabs.
anyway . . it is possible to support Israel, as I do, but still find this kind of take disturbing . . . and I think that it would be partly criminal to pretend that there is absolutely no injustice taking place .. . . on both sides.
<strong>It's stupid to call this a Sharon vs Arafat thing. Israel went through ..what?... 12 PMs with no peace with Arafat. What's the one constant over those years. Arafat.
Exile him now. He's a terrorist. We have the proof. Let Palestine have a political process like a normal country. I'd like to hear the campaign speeches they'd have to give to get elected. Then we'll see just what they Palestinian people will vote for.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dude .. most Isarelis would agree with you there .. the guy is nothing but trouble.. has always been ....without him Palestinians could have had a state ages ago.. trouble is - your dear secretary of state insists on protecting him... and so does every EU politicians out there .... israel can't expel him without support from the US nor can it select the Palestinian's leaders for them.... its a F***** up prblem !
Analysis / U.S. impatience with Arafat could spur new IDF attack
By Bradley Burston, Ha'aretz Correspondent
Thirty-five years to the hour of the outbreak of a war that Israelis hoped would end all Mideast wars, a bomb-hauling Islamic Jihad suicide driver incinerated a crowded commuter bus Wednesday near the traditional site of the end of the world, killing at least 16 people and fueling fears of a Palestinian "megaterror" attack still in the works.
But with few tangible signs of progress in CIA Director George Tenet's mission to persuade Yasser Arafat to reform his security services into structures that could block attacks on Israelis, there were signs that Washington might relax its restraints on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's government, with a new IDF onslaught in the territories a possible consequence.
Israel's chief of military intelligence said on the eve of the suicide car bombing that militant Palestinian groups were planning "megaterror" attacks to raise the ante of attacks within the Jewish state.
His words were underscored by a high-profile major exercise by rescue services near Tel Aviv Tuesday. The chilling scenario of the simulated terror strike: an airplane clashes into a skyscraper, whose foundations are undermined by a simultaneous car bomb in its underground parking garage, and whose tenants are further placed at peril by an explosive device planted in an upper story.
Analysts said 'megaterror' could spell deaths in the hundreds, or even thousands, in one of the world's most volatile military theaters.
As if the point needed further amplification, the Wednesday attack took place near Har Megiddo, or Armeggedon, site of countless ancient battles between implacable enemies, and by some traditions, the launch site of the end of the world.
The Islamic Jihad operation was much more powerful in scope than past attacks involving a bomb belt secreted on the body of a suicide attacker. Some analysts viewed it as the forerunner of horrendous megaterror attempts, such as the reported bid to detonate a full ton of explosives under the Twin Tower-like silhouette of Tel Aviv's 50-story Azrieli Center.
But if Israelis were consumed with doomsday worries, Palestinian anxieties were at high pitch as well.
In the past, devastating suicide bombings involving scores of casualties have prompted the White House to gave a tacit green light to its ally Israel, which then launched massive retaliatory strikes against Palestinian targets, often concentrating its firepower on the very Palestinian Authority security agencies that Israel held responsible for preventing terrorism.
A Palestinian official in Ramallah was quoted Wednesday as saying that Tenet had told Arafat that if terror attacks continue, the beleaguered Palestinian leader "will stand alone before Sharon's might." Tenet was said to have warned Arafat that "the United States will not intervene, and Sharon will have a free hand."
Israeli fears also underscored the nation's distance from the elation that had characterized the victory in 1967 over its Arab neighbors. Fearing that an Arab victory could mean a reprise of the World War Two Nazi Holocaust that saw the annihilation of European Jewry, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike that crippled Arab air capabilities, and led to the capture of the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, and East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan.
In the space of six days, Israel went from being the world's largest ghetto to the world's newest empire. Asked Wednesday if Israel believed at the time that it had seen the last of its many wars, former air force chief Mordechai Hod said "We weren't sure, but we hoped so." In the end, however, as the territories turned into a liability rather than a blessing, Hod acknowledged, the war justified the designation, "the curse of having been blessed."
Senior Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat picked up the theme, saying that Israel's recent military operations had failed to yield anything other than Palestinian rage, the ultimate driving-force behind terrorism.
"Today, June 5, marks 35 years of the continuing Israeli occupation, with no end in sight." Erekat said, adding that Israel should move back to the negotiating table, rather than back into Palestinian cities. "The Israeli army carried out 93 military incursions in the West Bank last month alone, and they get these results."
Israel had seen to it that the Palestinian Authority was powerless to stand in the way of militant attacks on Israel, Erekat told CNN. "The Israeli army is in total control of the West bank. We have no authority any more, and that's very sure. We have the tightest closure and siege ever, where movement of Palestinians is prevented anywhere, and then these things (attacks) happen, and they blame us."
But Education Minister Limor Livnat of Sharon's ruling Likud said Wednesday that Israel would likely have no choice but to re-enter Palestinian cities and stay to fight there for prolonged periods.
"There is no doubt that Israel cannot sit quietly, and refrain from considering an operation, a very, very significant response, in order to prevent disasters of this type," she said.
As Livnat spoke, IDF forces entered the West Bank city of Jenin, a hotbed of Islamic Jihad militancy, in what Israeli officials called an "initial response" to the bus bombing.
Sharon is scheduled to meet President George W. Bush at the White House on June 10. His previous visit, a month before, was curtailed by a suicide bombing in a Tel Aviv suburb which took the lives of 15 people.
The prime minister might also cut short the upcoming visit, notes Ha'aretz commentator Akiva Eldar, but he is unlikely to cancel it, coming as it does on the heels of a scheduled White House visit by Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. As of now, Washington generally agrees with Egypt that Sharon is mistaken in calling for the sidelining of Arafat as a pre-condition for any future diplomatic progress.
"It may be, however, that this attack could spark a change in the American's viewpoint, and cause the Americans to move closer to the prime minister's point of view." In any event, Eldar argues, "After President Bush's meeting with Mubarak, Prime Minister Sharon will want to be the last person that the president hears from on these matters.
"It may be, however, that this attack could spark a change in the American's viewpoint, and cause the Americans to move closer to the prime minister's point of view." In any event, Eldar argues, "After President Bush's meeting with Mubarak, Prime Minister Sharon will want to be the last person that the president hears from on these matters.
The White House will not let Israel Deal with Arafat. Arafat continue his belligerance as usual.
<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020606/ap_wo_en_po/us_mideast_82&printer=1"; target="_blank">Yahoo! News</a>
Israel's response to the bus bombing from the peace loving Arabs. Arafat plays the victim. My favorite quote:
[quote]Pointing to his dust-covered bed, broken bedroom mirror and shattered bathroom tiles, Arafat later suggested Israel was trying to harm him. "I was supposed to sleep here last night but I had some work downstairs," he said. "Of course they (the Israelis) knew where I was. Everybody knows this is my bedroom."<hr></blockquote>
I think he's on to them.
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4655-2002Jun6.html"; target="_blank">Washington Post</a>
[quote]"What is to become of the Palestinians?" "Oh," Sharon said, "we'll make a pastrami sandwich of them." I said, "What?" He said, "Yes, we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in twenty-five years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart".<hr></blockquote>
Winston S. Churchill III (journalist, former member of Parliament, and grandson of the British prime minister) at the National Press Club, October 10, 2001, recalling his conversation with then-General (res.) Ariel Sharon in 1973.
The man with the plan...
[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
<strong>Talking about quotes, I came over this one today:............................................ .........
...........
The man with the plan...
[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats says what exactly ? a vague quote from 30 years ago ? you can probably dig up dodgy quotes from anyone.. proves nothing about things today !
How about these ones of Arafat if it's quotes we're into :
[quote]
The ensuing article, entitled: "Arafat's Secret Agenda Is to Wear Israelis Out" appeared in the April 1, 1996 issue of Insight magazine in Washington D.C. written by this correspondent. Additional comments follow the article:
In the dark shadow of horrific suicide bombings in Israel carried out by Hamas terrorists operating from the safe haven of Mr. Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA), an Israeli government which had asserted that the leopard of the Palestine Liberation Organization had changed its spots, finds itself questioning its basic premise: Does Yasser Arafat really believe in the peace process with Israel, and what are his true intentions?
According to reports of an unpublicized January meeting between Mr. Arafat and Swedish-based Arab diplomats in Stockholm, Arafat estimates that the final-stage agreements between the Palestinians and Israel will ultimately bring about Israel's collapse. He reportedly told the diplomats that a migration of Arabs to "the West Bank and Jerusalem" and the psychological warfare the Palestinians would wage against the Israelis would cause a massive emigration of Jews to the United States. "We Palestinians will takeover everything, including all of Jerusalem," the PLO leader declared, claiming Israeli leaders "Peres and Beilin have already promised us half of Jerusalem. The Golan Heights have already been given away, subject to just a few details."
"We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps," Arafat reportedly declared. "Within five years, we will have six to seven million Arabs living on the West Bank and in Jerusalem. All Palestinian Arabs will be welcomed by us. If the Jews can import all kinds of Ethiopians, Russians, Uzbeks and Ukranians as Jews, we can import all kinds of Arabs to us." He added that the PLO plans "to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion; Jews won't want to live among us Arabs."
Mr. Arafat's meeting took place on January 30th, in Stockholm's Grand Hotel shortly after an official state dinner in his honor sponsored by Sweden's Foreign Minister. Unlike the "Jihad" speech given by Mr. Arafat in a Johannesburg mosque two years ago, no recording exists. However, an investigation by Israel's Channel 7 (Arutz Sheva) Radio news (which also released the Johannesburg tape) has confirmed the existence and authenticity of a transcript, as have Swedish sources and Murray Kahl, editor of Israeli & Global News. Channel 7 broadcast excerpts on Feb. 14th.
The next day, the Israeli Hebrew language dailies Ha'aretz and Ma'ariv both ran the story quoting Channel 7 Radio, and Ma'ariv translated the radio report to Arabic and passed it on to Arafat's office in Gaza requesting comment. Arafat told Ma'ariv that the story was "not true and not accurate." He then admitted that the secret meeting had, in fact, occurred but claimed the Arab ambassadors came on their own initiative to congratulate him on his boldness in pursuing peace with Israel and his victory in the Palestinian elections. [Mr. Arafat failed to explain, why, if the meeting's content was as he alleged, it was kept such a secret until Arutz 7's broadcast exposed its having took place. YA]
Two days later, the conservative Norwegian newspaper Dagen published new details regarding Arafat's speech under a front-page headline declaring: "Arafat Gave Speech about Israel's Destruction." The Jerusalem Post ran the story Feb. 23, and on Feb. 24, the Swedish weekly Magazinet published excerpts from the speech. Meanwhile, three prominent Israeli writers, Chaim Guri, Aharon Amir and Aharon Meged took note of the Channel 7 and Dagen's reportage and published articles in leading Israeli newspapers expressing deep concern [over Arafat's true intentions and the Peres government's inability to recognize them. YA] <hr></blockquote>
Or this:
[quote]In a November 1995 radio address:"The struggle will continue until ALL of Palestine is liberated."<hr></blockquote>
or this ?...
[quote]When we stopped the intifada we did not stop the jihad to establish Palestine with Jerusalem as our capital.... We know only one word: jihad, jihad, jihad ... We are in a conflict with the Zionist movement, the Balfour Declaration, and all imperialist activity." Yasser Arafat, Daheisha refugee camp. (Yediot Ahronot, Oct 23) <hr></blockquote>
or what about this :
(excerpts from a speech given by PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat on May 10, 1994, in a mosque in Johannesburg)
[quote]The Jihad [Islamic holy war] will continue, and Jerusalem is not [only] for the Palestinian people, it is for all the Muslim nation.
You are responsible for Palestine and for Jerusalem before me [applause], the land which had been blessed for the whole world.
Now after this agreement you have to understand our main battle.
Our main battle is Jerusalem. Jerusalem. The first shrine of the Moslems.
This has to be understood for everybody and for this I was insisting before signing to have a letter from them, the Israelis, that Jerusalem is one of the items which has to be under discussion and not the state, the permanent State of Israel! No! It is the permanent State of Palestine [applause]. Yes, it is the permanent State of Palestine.
And in this letter it is very important for everybody to know I insist to mention and they have written it, and I have this letter, I didn't declare and publish it until now. In this letter we are responsible for all the Christian and the Moslem and Islamic holy sacred places.
I have to speak frankly, I can't do it alone without the support of the Islamic nation. I can't do it alone. No, you have to come and to fight and to start the Jihad to liberate Jerusalem, your first shrine.
In the agreement I insist with my colleagues, with my brothers, to mention that not exceeding the beginning of the third year, and after -- directly after -- the signing of their agreement, to start discussing the future of Jerusalem. The future of Jerusalem.
What they are saying is that [Jerusalem] is their capital. No, it is not their capital. It is our capital. It is the first shrine of the Islam and the Moslems.
This agreement, I am not considering it more than the agreement which had been signed between our prophet Mohammed and Koraish, and you remember the Caliph Omar had refused this agreement and [considered] it a despicable truce.
[Ed. note: The agreement with Koraish allowed Mohammed to pray in Mecca, which was under Koraish control, for ten years. When Mohammed grew stronger two years later, he abrogated the agreement, slaughtered the tribe of Koraish and conquered Mecca.] <hr></blockquote>
[quote]"Be blessed, O Gaza, and celebrate, for your sons are returning after a long celebration. O Gaza, your sons are returning. O Jaffa, O Lod, O Haifa, O Jerusalem, you are returning, you are returning."
--- P.L.O. Chairman Yasser Arafat, at a reception held in his honor in Gaza (Maariv, 7 September 1995) <hr></blockquote>
[quote]"Yes, we are proud of the Palestinian girl, the Palestinian woman and the Palestinian child who fulfilled these miracles. The Palestinian woman participated in the Palestinian revolution. The Palestinian girl participated in the Palestinian revolution. Abir al-Wahidi, commander of the central region [al-Wahidi participated in the murder of Israeli Zvi Klein in December 1991] and Dalal al-Maghrabi, Martyr of Palestine [al-Maghrabi took part in the Coastal Road Massacre in March 1978, in which 37 Israelis were killed]. I bow in respect and admiration to the Palestinian woman who receives her martyred son with joyful cheering. The soul and blood for you, O Palestine!"
--- P.L.O. Chairman Yasser Arafat, in a speech given on 3 September 1995 at the al-Fatah girls school in Gaza to mark the opening of the school year (Israel Channel Two Television, 19 September 1995) <hr></blockquote>
HAPPY ??
Have you found a solution yet ? ...Apart from blaming it all on Sharon ?
[ 06-09-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
You have gone a bit quite ? mind you all those quotes are from the years Arafat refers to as the "time of the peace of the brave" when moderate Labor PM's Rabin and Peres were in power in Israel and the Oslo process was at its peak !
Its clear that Arafat has had a clear agenda since then and that his final Aim was/is the destruction of Israel and its people !
How can you seriously expect any sensible self preserving Israeli to take this man seriously or to be willing to give in to even an inch of his demands when its so clear what his ultimate goal is ?
You have gone a bit quite ?<hr></blockquote>
Well, beeing self-employed, and a father sometimes take up most of the day...
[quote] mind you all those quotes are from the years Arafat refers to as the "time of the peace of the brave" when moderate Labor PM's Rabin and Peres were in power in Israel and the Oslo process was at its peak !
Its clear that Arafat has had a clear agenda since then and that his final Aim was/is the destruction of Israel and its people !<hr></blockquote>
Still think I'm a big fan of Arafat do you?
I won't even waste your time starting on those quotes. My regard for him is limited to accepting him as the choosen leader of the palestinians, and the negotiation partner of Sharon, I'm actually more concerned with the human rights of the palestinian people...
My point is that Sharon has had his "ultimate" goals for all these years, and even if you won't admit it, you can see these policies beeing put into life every day. Stop hiding behind Arafat, he'll be replaced in time anyway.
<strong>
Still think I'm a big fan of Arafat do you?
I won't even waste your time starting on those quotes. My regard for him is limited to accepting him as the choosen leader of the palestinians, and the negotiation partner of Sharon, I'm actually more concerned with the human rights of the palestinian people...
My point is that Sharon has had his "ultimate" goals for all these years, and even if you won't admit it, you can see these policies beeing put into life every day. Stop hiding behind Arafat, he'll be replaced in time anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Still think I'm a big fan of Sharon do you ?
Stop hiding behind Sharon he'll be replaced soon by democratic elections.....Arafat on the other hand.... will stay as the destroyer of the Palestinians .... on and on and on and on and on.........he's just finished his much anticipated reforms ...... LOL, what a clown nothing has changed .. Israelis and plestinians are still dying daily
If this is your view, than you have certainly wasted a lot of time making excuses for the settlement policy...
What the hell ???
Where have I made excuses for the settlement policy ?
What are you talking about ?
You insult me with this twisting of facts !
Indeed I have repeatedly said that I believe the settlement policy to be Israel's greatest mistake .. read my posts and don't misquote me please ! <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
What I did say was that there can be no moral equivalence between settlers and terrorists !
I have also said that ( and proved that point on many occasions) Arafat is a plain liar and a terrorist and that he has missed every chance to gain Palestinian statehood or advancement for his people - He has a clear and obvious aim which is the ultimate destruction of my country .. and you expect me to accept him as a peace partner ...LOL <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
You keep going back to the point of the settlements as if you believe that by some miracle the removal of these would make the Arab world suddenly accept Israel ( which for most Arabs is itself a one big settlement) and bring peace and stability to the region - a peace which this region has never seen, even long before any settlements were built.
Arafat and the PLO have been calling for the destruction of Israel long before 67 and so did and still does Syria (Which is chairing the security council these days BTW)...
New, if you care so much about injustice why is it the you don't care about all these facts , why is it that you don't really care about the rights of the Israeli civilians who die daily ?
It's clear that a withdrawal like the one you propose would lead to an increase in terror attacks on civilians ... Arafat would be vindicated, he would have finally found the way to remove the Israeli presence form their Palestine ... keep using terror and slowly the Israelis would retreat until there is no where to go for them .... Arafat himself has pretty much spelt this tactic out in the quotes I posted above..
What hope do you offer Israelis with the 'pack up and get out' approach you suggest for Israel ?
An answer would be nice !
[ 06-11-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
[quote]
<a href="http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo= 175379&contrassID=2&subContr assID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=175379" target="_blank">Shorten the lines</a>
By Ze'ev Schiff
Many Israel Defense Forces officers agree that it would be better to shorten the lines in the territories - that is, to give up on isolated settlements and withdraw from certain areas. But I have not found a single senior officer with any influence on the decision-making process who thinks that we should do this in the current situation, because the Palestinians, and the Arabs in general, would interpret it as a military victory.
In this context, the withdrawal from Lebanon is always mentioned. We viewed this as a move that would have a calming influence on the military conflict - but the Arabs saw it as a victory, and that influenced them to support the Palestinians in a military confrontation with Israel. It is no surprise that the evacuation of isolated settlements is not currently being discussed by the general staff.
Even former prime minister Ehud Barak, who led the withdrawal from Lebanon and supports separation as a strategic necessity, now says that for the time being, all we should do is decide which isolated settlements should someday be evacuated - primarily so that their residents can be informed, and will be ready to be evacuated when the time comes.
There are also Palestinian personalities who say it would be a mistake for Israel to implement a unilateral evacuation today, because such a step would strengthen the extremists and give great encouragement to Hamas and all the others who want to continue the military confrontation. Evacuation without an agreement is thus liable to result in stepped-up military pressure by the Palestinians.
But despite all this, it is clear that Israel is approaching the stage at which it can no longer postpone a crucial decision on this issue. The decision to build a fence along the border was also deferred for many months for fear that it would be viewed as a retreat under pressure to the 1967 borders. But just as it did with the fence, the moment will come when we will have to choose a certain path even though it is not an ideal response to every operational problem.
In the case of the isolated settlements, it will be necessary to decide which consideration outweighs the others, while taking into account the psychological effect on the Arabs and the negative impact evacuation is liable to have on negotiations. The defense establishment must first of all weigh the operational considerations. For the IDF, which is crying out for more operational manpower, this is the critical issue. In Gaza, for instance - where there is a shortage of forces in reserve - every isolated settlement requires a battalion. There are more soldiers than settlers.
One phenomenon that is bringing the day of decision closer is the tricks the settlers are using in order deceive, not the Arabs, but the defense establishment - to wit, the illegal outposts. These outposts (which admittedly are not always isolated, but are often set up near a large settlement) are constantly being reestablished, until in the end, the army is forced to defend them even though they are illegal.
The settlers, who view refusing to build a fence around their towns as a show of ideological muscle, are thereby intensifying the tragic conflict. The cat-and-mouse games with the settlers, who circumvent the law and the army's orders, are contemptible - and they also make the military struggle more difficult.
Yasser Arafat had a chance to create a situation in which Israel would have been compelled to freeze the settlements in the framework of the Mitchell plan. But the continuation of the violence was more important to Arafat than a settlement freeze, even though he would have enjoyed broad American and international support on this issue. Today, the chances of a comprehensive agreement with the Palestinians, within whose framework we could deal with the settlements, including the isolated ones, are slim.
In this situation, there are two alternatives that have yet to be thoroughly discussed. One is to evacuate civilians from isolated settlements and put the army in their place until comprehensive negotiations are opened. The evacuees could be absorbed into settlements that are part of the settlement blocs outlined in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's bridging proposal, or they could accept compensation and relocate in Israel.
The second possibility depends on the start of negotiations. In this case, it would be possible to reach an understanding at the outset on coordinated unilateral moves: Israel would evacuate certain isolated settlements, and the Palestinians would turn illegal weapons over to international observers. But it is clear that such coordinated unilateral steps have no chance of
The second possibility depends on the start of negotiations. In this case, it would be possible to reach an understanding at the outset on coordinated unilateral moves: Israel would evacuate certain isolated settlements, and the Palestinians would turn illegal weapons over to international observers. But it is clear that such coordinated unilateral steps have no chance of becoming reality if the fighting continues in its current form.<hr></blockquote>
I would still like to see some meaningful reply from you for my question if you care to do that