I can't recommend the iPad to Granny.

Posted:
in iPad edited January 2014
She needs to print and can now, come November.



What she can't do is buy an iPad and use it out of the box, without connecting it to a traditional computer.



Until the iPad can be setup without connecting to a traditional computer I can't recommend it to her. When is the iPad going to be like the Apple TV, in this respect?



She doesn't have and will never have a traditional computer. Syncing with a Mac or PC should be a nice bonus feature, not a requirement.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 53
    imacfpimacfp Posts: 750member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    She needs to print and can now, come November.



    What she can't do is buy an iPad and use it out of the box, without connect it to a traditional computer.



    Until the iPad can be setup without connecting it to a traditional computer I can't recommend it to her. When is the iPad going to be like the Apple TV, in this respect?



    She doesn't have and will never have a traditional computer. Syncing with a Mac or PC should be a nice bonus feature, not a requirement.





    I can't remember if you need to sync to set up a iPad, but you sure don't need a computer to use one. I'm taking it you have a computer and that it would be perfect to set up Granny's iPad. It's a non issue.
  • Reply 2 of 53
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by imacFP View Post


    I can't remember if you need to sync to set up a iPad...



    You don't need to remember, I did that for you. She doesn't have a traditional computer. I made this clear.
  • Reply 3 of 53
    If she buys it at the apple store, they will plug it in and set it up for her.



    Problem solved.



    It is crazy that they require a synch before use.
  • Reply 4 of 53
    areseearesee Posts: 776member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tmarks11 View Post


    If she buys it at the apple store, they will plug it in and set it up for her.



    Problem solved.



    It is crazy that they require a synch before use.



    You know that might be the best answer. That way Apple will eventually get the message that not all users have a computer and make the iPad into a more stand alone device.
  • Reply 5 of 53
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tmarks11 View Post


    If she buys it at the apple store, they will plug it in and set it up for her.



    Problem solved.



    If there was an Apple Store in my country your work around might make some sense. The best way to solve it really however, is for Apple to stop pussy-footing around with the iPad and get rid of that cable.
  • Reply 6 of 53
    I agree. Apple needs to cut the cord.



    There is no reason that the included iTunes app can't have all the functionality of iTunes on a pc or a Mac. It should allow you to create an iTunes account on the ipad app.



    Hopefully apple will advance into 2008's cloud computing concept next year when their server farm comes online, and will shift their focus from using your home computer as a backup to online backup. It is not like they need to physically store all your movies and apps on their server, they just need to have the list of what you bought, and then just backup any unique things on your iPad.
  • Reply 7 of 53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    If there was an Apple Store in my country your work around might make some sense. The best way to solve it really however, is for Apple to stop pussy-footing around with the iPad and get rid of that cable.



    Any Apple Authorized retailer in your country would set it up for her. Any friend or family member with a computer can set it up for her, without actually syncing any of their content. What's the problem?
  • Reply 8 of 53
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tmarks11 View Post


    Hopefully apple will advance into 2008's cloud computing concept next year when their server farm comes online, and will shift their focus from using your home computer as a backup to online backup. It is not like they need to physically store all your movies and apps on their server, they just need to have the list of what you bought, and then just backup any unique things on your iPad.



    Cloud backups are ok but realistically, you're not going to upload more than about 1GB regularly so they could just have put an SD slot on it and you could do the same backups much more quickly. You also wouldn't need a camera connection kit if your camera used SD and it would make file transfers between a computer much easier.



    Naturally with an SD slot, it might act against them being able to sell the higher up models but you wouldn't be able to put music on the external and use the iPod player and that's typically why people will buy more space. Same deal with itunes movies.



    Of course, it would allow people to put Xvid, DivX etc files on one and play them with a special app, which Apple wouldn't like.



    The filesystem controls wouldn't even need to be that complex though because you don't really have to copy files to an iPad storage area so it would be like column view but just the last two columns. If you tap a folder, it opens the folder in the same column. It would look like this:







    If you need to move items, just select the items on the left by using tap-hold and it will pop-up what you want to do. If you choose move, the right column changes to a file view and you just navigate to where you want the selected items to go and it can animate the icons across.



    To rename items, just tap the headers and to delete an item, just swipe or there can be a tap-hold option.



    There would be import buttons to allow you to put files into the appropriate app - for pictures, you can put them straight into the photo library so other apps can access them.



    Down the bottom, there can be an eject button to make sure you remove the SD safely. There can be a trash bucket too but I think trash confuses some people so as long as delete has a confirmation, it should be ok to just delete.



    It's about as straightforward as you can get. There can be a Time-Machine style backup system that stores files under say 5MB in a version control way but this folder wouldn't show up on the SD card or you can get an SD card especially for backups.
  • Reply 9 of 53
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    I can't recommend the iPad to Granny



    The biggest problem I've noticed with people above their 40's is getting used to the touchscreen interface. People below 30 have little problem with it.



    I would check to see if she can get used to that first.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tmarks11 View Post


    I agree. Apple needs to cut the cord.



    There is no reason that the included iTunes app can't have all the functionality of iTunes on a pc or a Mac. It should allow you to create an iTunes account on the ipad app.



    I would have no doubt Apple is experimenting with all options in their labs. Saying something should work is easier than it actually working in reality. Seeing as no one provides a mobile platform that requires no interaction with a computer at all.



    Apple's motivation has always been to provide features when they work as well as possible.
  • Reply 10 of 53
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,787member
    Seriously Ireland, all of my grand parents where gone before I really knew what was up as a child. Don't waste the opportunity you have at your age.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    She needs to print and can now, come November.



    Don't count your eggs before they hatch. If printing requires a network server you will be buying more hardware than you might think.

    Quote:

    What she can't do is buy an iPad and use it out of the box, without connecting it to a traditional computer.



    No but you can. There is no place in Ireland that you can't drive to in part of a day so there is no excuse not to offer up a bit of support from time to time. If nothing else you should be backing the device up for her.

    Quote:



    Until the iPad can be setup without connecting to a traditional computer I can't recommend it to her.



    That has nothing to do with it as there are plenty of alternatives. You seem to have motivations here that have nothing to do with iPad, but as yet have not been seen by us.

    Quote:

    When is the iPad going to be like the Apple TV, in this respect?



    Maybe the next release or maybe never. Remember from Apples point of view it is an iOS device. These devices have specific family characteristics. Frankly I like the current arraingment a lot.

    Quote:

    She doesn't have and will never have a traditional computer.



    You seem to be awfully positive about that. Just because she is a granny doesn't mean she won't adapt in the future. Especially if she finds out about the communication possibilities. She could be demanding regular videos of the grand kids.

    Quote:

    Syncing with a Mac or PC should be a nice bonus feature, not a requirement.



    Well that could be debated for years so I'm not convinced going on here will help. Lets just say iOS devices work pretty damn good as it is right now. IPads have the potential for going beyond that but honestly i think Apples current approach makes lots of sense.



    Now back to granny, realize the opportunity you have here does not last forever. Like I mentioned above I never had the privledge of adult contact with my grand parents. Two I never knew at all and two left this world before I really knew them. So don't knock granny's desires here!!! Instead find a way to make it work for you even if you have to smooth out the rough spots yourself. What would it take to sync for her from time to time? You could enjoy a cup of tea in the time it takes. Ten or twenty years down the road (hopefully more) you will have fogotten the iPad but will have positive memories to reflect on.



    In otherwords you are trying to make this into a technical issue when that isn't even remotely the case. It is rather an issue about family and trying to maintain those connection. Granny is from another generation, the tech doesn't matter - rather it is your willingness to support her that matters.





    Dave
  • Reply 11 of 53
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Saying something should work is easier than it actually working in reality. Seeing as no one provides a mobile platform that requires no interaction with a computer at all.



    DROIIIIID does:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJf2ubJ_igg



    Cumbersome setup process but not as cumbersome as someone unboxing a tablet and having to plug it into a PC and open iTunes, which they may not have (requiring a download and install).



    A lot of old people have poor eyesight and the last thing they want to do is get down on all fours behind a dusty old PC and figure out which of the 20 or so ports back there is a USB port. It might be the last trip they ever make.



    Wifi syncing would help here (wifi would be setup by the grandson of course).



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    Apple's motivation has always been to provide features when they work as well as possible.



    Exactly, which is why they need to fix this. This is an example of you having to fit the device rather than the other way round. As soon as they put on a system requirement, there are conditions of usage.



    The simple reason why syncing should be optional is because once you sync, people find they can use the device almost indefinitely so why require it in the first place? System updates and backups are different but there's no reason they can't be done on the device too like I described above with an SD slot. Updates should have automatic recovery and roll-back.



    They need to add controls to manage content and then it will have the features to take on the netbook market. Just now, it's an accessory. No revolution, no magic, just an accessory. If the standard PC will fade out eventually as Jobs indicated then why tie the device that's suppose to make the shift to an old PC?



    The sync step obviously ties the iPad content to a desktop or laptop so if a device is stolen then it will try to wipe it when connected to someone else's machine but someone can steal your laptop or desktop and they don't require you to sync with a server. Even if they required you to setup an account when you turn on the device to tie it to your iTunes account, that would be ok because if you tried to sync it with a machine using a different iTunes account then it would know. This also gives the option to sync with both a laptop and a desktop if both iTunes programs are setup with the same iTunes account.
  • Reply 12 of 53
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,787member
    But from my standpoint it isn't a problem right now.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    DROIIIIID does:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJf2ubJ_igg



    Cumbersome setup process but not as cumbersome as someone unboxing a tablet and having to plug it into a PC and open iTunes, which they may not have (requiring a download and install).



    It certainly isn't perfect, that is Apples setup requirement, but has been pointed out there are ways around that. The simple fact that they are willing to do so in store is acknowledgement by Apple that the requirement doesn't fit every user needs.

    Quote:

    A lot of old people have poor eyesight and the last thing they want to do is get down on all fours behind a dusty old PC and figure out which of the 20 or so ports back there is a USB port. It might be the last trip they ever make.



    Likewise a lot of old people are likely rolling their eyes in disgust at being catergorized as feeble and near death. Believe it or not some older people are very tuned in to the technology world.

    Quote:



    Wifi syncing would help here (wifi would be setup by the grandson of course).



    Proper WiFi setup is far more time consuming then setting up the iPad yet you seem to think it is worth the grandsons time. If you can say he should be setting up WiFi then the simpler operation of setting up the iPad is a no brainer. This is one reason why I reject Irelands complaint about the need to sync as it is trivial compared to the efforts required to install WiFi and prep the house.

    Quote:





    Exactly, which is why they need to fix this. This is an example of you having to fit the device rather than the other way round. As soon as they put on a system requirement, there are conditions of usage.



    This is a non arguement as every bit of technology requires certain conditions for use. A solar powered calculator requires light, an automobile requores fuel, oil and other stuff, a laptop requires power and an OS. The list goes on and on. There are always conditions of usage no matter what the device.



    You can say that the sync requirement is a condition you object to but that is a different arguement. Admuttedly iPad isn't perfect here but sync is hardly the big issue pointed out by many here.

    Quote:

    The simple reason why syncing should be optional is because once you sync, people find they can use the device almost indefinitely so why require it in the first place?



    I can't say what Apples motivations are here but Syncing the device upon first usage is not an issue. Second the fact that you can use the device for almost ever without a sync doesn't mean that the device can't be sync'ed in the future. Apple must have some sort of vision about how the device will be used and I'm pretty sure that involves being sync'ed to a system rather regularly.

    Quote:

    System updates and backups are different but there's no reason they can't be done on the device too like I described above with an SD slot.



    The kack of an SD slot puzzles and frustrates me as it likely would only cost a couple if dollars to implement. The problem is the SD slot really diesn't fit into this discussion as Apple provides a way to update the machine. Besides the SD card won't get filled with data on its own, so you still need a PC.

    Quote:

    Updates should have automatic recovery and roll-back.



    Show me were that has been prefected. The fac is Apples method is a lot like a clean install often reccomended for some OS updates. Those updates are done in such a way that the average consummer doesn't have a problem doing them. Sure on iPad this is a hold over from the phone like devices that are even more limited hardware wise. It is however a proven and manageable system usable by a wide range of people.

    Quote:

    They need to add controls to manage content and then it will have the features to take on the netbook market. Just now, it's an accessory. No revolution, no magic, just an accessory.



    Yes an accessory and frankly many of us like it that way. Frankly it is a good thing to be seen that way as it allows Apple to manage expectations because honestly the iPad can't compete right now with even a cheap laptop. People need to realize what they are buying at the time of purchase to avoid disappointment. Notably the current arraingement gives them the ability to evolve iOS over time and deliver the features many of us want.

    Quote:

    If the standard PC will fade out eventually as Jobs indicated then why tie the device that's suppose to make the shift to an old PC?



    The old PC morphs into a hub for the digital life style. I don't think Steve meant that the PC goes away completely just that its usage changes dramatically. Or he could see iPad as a device for cloud computing which honestly I think is pretty sad.

    Quote:

    The sync step obviously ties the iPad content to a desktop or laptop so if a device is stolen then it will try to wipe it when connected to someone else's machine but someone can steal your laptop or desktop and they don't require you to sync with a server. Even if they required you to setup an account when you turn on the device to tie it to your iTunes account, that would be ok because if you tried to sync it with a machine using a different iTunes account then it would know. This also gives the option to sync with both a laptop and a desktop if both iTunes programs are setup with the same iTunes account.



    I'm not here trying to say iPad is oerfect or that the current syncing arraingements make sense 100% of the time. All i'm saying is that this is a rather poor excuse not to give Granny the support she seems to need.



    I look at it this way, the subject must have come up in some context. Maybe she saw a friend with one doing something on a social web site. Or maybe the same friend showed her some E-Mails with photos or videos of grand kids. Whatever the cause of her interest we have to respect that she probably doesn't care about the details. For this type of usage the iPad is a perfectly goid machine for granny no matter what are personal feelings about syncing are.



    Think about what the iPad is and why older people might actually like it. The technically inclined in this forum often get side tracked with the details. Normally that is all right but in this case I think we need to put ourselves in grannys place. Further we need to understand why the subject even came up.



    I simply don't know the details here but I can telk you that grand parents love those pics and videos of grand kids. Something tells me that granny's i terests where tweaked with resoect to iPad and its ease of use with respect to E-Mail and portability had something to do with it.



    In a nut shell I just think Ireland is focused on the wrong issue here. No matter what granny gets there will be support involved, that should be a given. If an iPad does what she wants and makes her happy why resist????



    As a side note it might be wise to wait for the Facetime supporting iPad to come out. Especially if she is looking at this as a communications device.





    Dave
  • Reply 13 of 53
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tonton View Post


    Any Apple Authorized retailer in your country would set it up for her. Any friend or family member with a computer can set it up for her, without actually syncing any of their content. What's the problem?



    That's the problem. She can't buy it and use it. She needs someone to do something. This is backward. Not Apple.
  • Reply 14 of 53
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    The biggest problem I've noticed with people above their 40's is getting used to the touchscreen interface. People below 30 have little problem with it.



    I would check to see if she can get used to that first.



    She never used a computer. I see the iPad being her best chance.
  • Reply 15 of 53
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Seriously Ireland, all of my grand parents where gone before I really knew what was up as a child. Don't waste the opportunity you have at your age.



    What in the hell are you talking about?
  • Reply 16 of 53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    That's the problem. She can't buy it and use it. She needs someone to do something. This is backward. Not Apple.



    Kind of like a mobile telephone, right?
  • Reply 17 of 53
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post


    Kind of like a mobile telephone, right?



    What?
  • Reply 18 of 53
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    I don't know why exactly Apple requires the sync to initialize the iPad…



    But from my standpoint it isn't a problem right now.



    In a nut shell I just think Ireland is focused on the wrong issue here. No matter what granny gets there will be support involved, that should be a given. If an iPad does what she wants and makes her happy why resist????



    I know you think you're making sense, but you're not.



    Granny doesn't have a traditional computer, the iPad requires one, i can't recommend it to her. Artificially tying the iPad to iTunes on a Mac or PC to turn it on for the first time is dumb.



    If she gets internet installed in her house they'll put in wireless, that's just how they do it in Ireland. They'll give her a password. If the iPad worked by itself out of the box she'd turn it on and she'd enter her wireless internet password. That's the way it should be, Apple need to get their finger out.
  • Reply 19 of 53
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,217moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    The simple fact that they are willing to do so in store is acknowledgement by Apple that the requirement doesn't fit every user needs.



    But if they remove the requirement then it's not a problem for anyone. Right now it prevents people buying one so there is no logical reason to have it in the first place.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Likewise a lot of old people are likely rolling their eyes in disgust at being catergorized as feeble and near death.



    Nah, they like the attention.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Believe it or not some older people are very tuned in to the technology world.



    Some but not many and I'd wager not the majority by a long way. They are happy they can turn on the TV without breaking a hip or setting the house on fire - the older you get, your achievement benchmark starts to get pretty low.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Proper WiFi setup is far more time consuming then setting up the iPad yet you seem to think it is worth the grandsons time. If you can say he should be setting up WiFi then the simpler operation of setting up the iPad is a no brainer. This is one reason why I reject Irelands complaint about the need to sync as it is trivial compared to the efforts required to install WiFi and prep the house.



    But if the manufacturer of every device an old person has to use took that stance then this wouldn't be a nice place for an old person to live - in a state of complete dependence. That's why we have largely idiot-proof appliances.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    This is a non arguement as every bit of technology requires certain conditions for use. A solar powered calculator requires light, an automobile requores fuel, oil and other stuff, a laptop requires power and an OS. The list goes on and on. There are always conditions of usage no matter what the device.



    Some by necessity, others by choice. Your list contains only necessary conditions, the iPad scenario is by choice.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    the SD card won't get filled with data on its own, so you still need a PC.



    The iPad owner doesn't need a PC. For example, a certain diligent grandson takes an SD card filled with holiday snaps of him and family on a nice holiday or of a new-born great grandchild. They slot the SD card in and grannie can look at the pictures straight away. They can do this with the camera kit but who's going to buy a kit just for this odd occasion? They can also take drawings a grandchild did on their iPad or computer or letters.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Yes an accessory and frankly many of us like it that way.



    I'd say many iPad owners are happy with their purchase but I don't think they appreciate lesser functionality if there is the opportunity for greater functionality, they just put up with the flaws because the rest of the device is pretty good. That would be like getting a brand new Bugatti Veron as a gift but it being bright pink and then saying 'well, I like pink and so do a lot of people'. The chances that it applies to a majority is slim so it shouldn't be the default choice.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    All i'm saying is that this is a rather poor excuse not to give Granny the support she seems to need.



    An ideal future should be that she needs no support. You can't use a guilt-trip to back up Apple's flawed implementation. The implementation they chose is not workable in this scenario so Apple need to fix it. They can't expect families to provide technical support when some old people have no families. They may have care workers but they would rarely be technically proficient. There should be no barrier for any computer illiterate to get the benefits of online services, whether it's groceries delivered to their door, or gifts delivered by Amazon, meeting up with old school friends, long lost relatives or just meeting new friends. Even ordering Viagra, heck I don't need it but they keep sending me the emails and these old people can't get any because there isn't a device they can use to get it. They shouldn't be deprived of this just because Apple expects them to have someone to depend on in the same way you shouldn't expect someone in a wheelchair to just have a grandson that can carry them up a flight of stairs.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    Think about what the iPad is and why older people might actually like it. The technically inclined in this forum often get side tracked with the details.



    That backs up our side of this. We are saying that the iPad should require less technical knowledge, you expect that it should be delegated to the grandson but don't mind that the technical barrier exists. Normally I'd take the stance that less technically minded people should just learn how to use it when they are young and have the capacity to learn but not when it comes to my Gran. She deserves better. Currently some of our grandparents are at death's door and the iPad is almost the pinnacle of computing technology for the average user and yet this simple barrier blows the whole thing.



    My mum would currently own one if the following were true:



    - it could be used standalone

    - it could connect to larger storage be it SD cards or USB hard drive

    - it could sync the music on it to an iPod

    - the content on the device could be managed like delete pictures, manage storage, manage music

    - the entry 16GB model was cheaper like £299



    Right now I have to contend with a computer illiterate using a laptop and it is frustrating beyond belief at how difficult it is to describe the most basic computer tasks over the phone to someone who doesn't know how to use a trackpad after 18 months and I imagine how much easier it would be describing how to work an iPad but if I have to support both a computer and an iPad, what's the point? Cutting out the least functional device makes the support easier.
  • Reply 20 of 53
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    What?



    As in "you can't just ring up a phone at the store register, open the box, and start making calls in two seconds." If you're going to complain about not being able to do that with an iPad then why haven't 1 billion people complained about that with phones?
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