Man, I dont ushualy agree with Scott, but he hit the nail on the head with this one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry but except one thread in apple outsider about the axis evil i do not make criticism against US. In this thread there is no line of critics about us. I think that too many people here think automatically when a thread is made by un european that it is automatically against US. Sorry but it's a stereotype. If each time i made a post someone deform it then no discussion will be possible.
Concerning **** in France, i have made several posts denounciating it, the sunshine does not raise out of my ass.
I didn't come up with this but I don't remember where I heard or read it. I agree with it, though. The U.S. is religious, miltarily robust, and nationalistic in it's world-view. Europe is secular, militarily weak and post-nationalistic in it's world-view. That's basically the root of the conflict between Europe and the U.S.
re: scott's article
Powerdoc, anti-Semitism also predates the founding of the Jewish state. You seem to be suggesting that anti-Semitism is specifically linked to the policies that Israel pursues. In a way similar to the way that Munbo Jumbo attempts to excuse anti-Americanism you come close to excusing anti-Semitism.
No that not what i was saying. Anti semitism exist in France as it exist in many other countries, anti-semitism is not specific to europe. I have no excuse for anti-semitism, but i do not like the israeli propenganda saying that if europe does not share the opinions of Israel it's because europe is anti-semit. The israeli have naturally the right to have a different opinion, but they should place the debate on a higher level. In nearly all governements there is jew ministers in france : a perfect example of antisemitism. Our president Jacques Chirac have said in many occasions that anti-semitism has no excuses.
>Oh, and Union Carbide, airbases in Europe, calling football 'soccer', Vietnam, David Hasselhof, for the fact the United States uses a quarter of the world's mineral resources, er um... let me see...<
As an American, please accept my apology on the behalf of all Americans, for David Hasselhof.............
Man, I dont ushualy agree with Scott, but he hit the nail on the head with this one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, I can't find fault in anything Scott wrote on this topic. Europe needs to look at itself in the mirror before trying to analyze America's faults. It seems as if the entire continent is screaming out for psychiatric help. Please find it, somehow.................................
America was founded by Europeans (English, Spanish, French), so that point isn't a good one. Incidientally there was no genocide here-the closest you could come to was the actions taken by the Spanish against Indians in South America. Slavery was a world-wide phenomenon, although there is no excuse for it by anyone.......................
<strong>Now Scott here a list of your classical statements :
- europe is anti american</strong><hr></blockquote>
On average, yup.
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>- europe is anti semit</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yup. In the US when there are Klan rallies US citizens show up to shut the clan down. When Jews are attacked in France your Prime Minister tells the Jews to shut up lest they be attacked again. Also don't forget your recent history of killing 6 million Jews.
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>- the muslims are a lame culture</strong><hr></blockquote>
How can anyone not think it's lame. Little respect for human rights. Little respect for individual rights. Little tolerance for alternate ideas. Almost no religious tolerance. Women are treated like **** . No representative government. No free press. Need I go on. Oh crap I told the truth.
The Arab/Muslim world is at a cross roads. They are 500 years behind the rest of the world and they would rather we join them than they join us.
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>- Liberal are do-gooders</strong><hr></blockquote>
They try at least. Too bad they are not good at it.
Are all Europeans supposed to be anti- Semites because some are? Are all Americans thoughtless or arrogant?
What we have in common surely is that at best we inherit a very mixed legacy. Can any of us truly be proud of ALL of the acts commited by our countries? Slavery, Genocide, Incitement, meddling in others affairs to suit our own ends....any country not guilty?
When someone takes the time to explain a different perspective about something you think you know, it might be good to think a little. I disagree with US policy towards Cuba. I am not anti-American. I disagree with the European Unions C.A.P..I am not anti-European.
What I find difficult to understand, particularly on such an open, international and privileged forum, is the attutude that any criticism = 'anti'.
Can't I disagree with ANY Israeli act without being an Anti - Semite? Can I agree with any US policy without being a war mongering capitalist?
No you can disagree. You just can't spread slanderous lies about the Jewish state without being called an anti-Semite. You also need to defend the Jews right to freedom when they are attacked in your country. You also should not send money to the PA which is then used to blow Jews up. When you support the anti-Semites with your money that makes you one.
I don't always agree with Israel. I'm not sure I agree with Zionism. I think the Israeli Army?s rules of engagement are not strict enough. But I don't condone slanderous lies about Israel, like powerdoc does. And if my president were to respond to anti-Semitic attacks by telling Jews to stay hidden I'd speak out against it.
Plus Europe?s track record is not good in this area and I see it happening over again. Blame the victim and then help the new Nazis load them on the train. Or in this case fund the arab/muslim terrorist that want to kill the jews this time around.
You make good points, Zarathustra, but one thing you said points out a classic problem. We don't take into account all the facts or see it from the other sides point of view and the example of that is Cuba.
Europeans don't feel, as a whole, that the embargo of Cuba should continue, but what you don't take into account is that there is a large and vocal group of Cuban Americans who are violently anit-Castro. They want him gone anyway they can do it. Most remember what Castro and his regime did to their families in Cuba and how they fled to the US for safety. Most Cuban Americans are Republicans, they vote as a block and are a major force in Florida. To become President and stay President you really need to win Florida. George W. Bush is a republican and wants to be reelected thus he has to keep a hard line on Castro. Is it the right thing to do? I'm not sure. I have no great love for Castro and I think Cuba would be better off without him and it's a shame his people have to suffer though. But it's the way it is. You might not like the reason, but there are reasons for it. Like every country America has to please its people first. We've always been an inward looking people, perhaps more than other nations, we have a different culture and a different political system and political culture too. We should do a better job of working with other nations and think before we act, but it's hard to escape your history and culture. Most can't do it. The problem is when America acts we really act due to our power and size. We all have the right to disagree, but just because you don't agree doesn't mean their aren't valid reasons.
<strong>You make good points, Zarathustra, but one thing you said points out a classic problem. We don't take into account all the facts or see it from the other sides point of view and the example of that is Cuba.
Europeans don't feel, as a whole, that the embargo of Cuba should continue, but what you don't take into account is that there is a large and vocal group of Cuban Americans who are violently anit-Castro. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to be fair they are not "violently anti-Castro". If they were that would mean that they used violence. But they have not. They use the political process within their country to get the leaders to ..... Unlike the terrorists which are violently anti-Semitic and anti-American.
Yup. In the US when there are Klan rallies US citizens show up to shut the clan down. When Jews are attacked in France your Prime Minister tells the Jews to shut up lest they be attacked again. Also don't forget your recent history of killing 6 million Jews.
How can anyone not think it's lame. Little respect for human rights. Little respect for individual rights. Little tolerance for alternate ideas. Almost no religious tolerance. Women are treated like **** . No representative government. No free press. Need I go on. Oh crap I told the truth.
The Arab/Muslim world is at a cross roads. They are 500 years behind the rest of the world and they would rather we join them than they join us.
For european news at least french one, they are more balanced that you may think :
some day on the French radio of information : France Info i eard a journalist speakinf of Arafat : the journalist clearly stated that Arafat has a second army the Fatah wich commited many terrorisms acts.
He said also that there where support from 3 country : Saudi arabia (one of my favorite countrie in the world ...) , an another state (sorry but i forgot it) and IRAK, sadam give 15000 $ of compensation after each suicide attack.
Many palestinians see Arafat as a heroe, but he is totally lame and hypocryte. It will be difficult to have peace with him at the power. I do not appreciate Sharon my self (but i do not place him at the same level), but contrary to Palestine, Israel is a democratia and is leader will change in the future. I don't think that there can be peace with Arafat, but the only one who can remove him is the palestinians themselves. Many palestinians are too blinded by their hate agains Israel to see the true nature of Arafat. I have no doubt that with a better leader the situation will be much better.
I don't condome false info, i said it was different from a lie (semantical discussion), for me the bad report of the british press has more to do with bad journalism and a bad stereotype (israel opress palestine).
No , i well tell here, that i am against anti-semitism as well i am against racism. I am cautious about all form of stereotype, i prefer to jauge individuals rather groups. But i am against the hypocrisis of PC, that led to do not call a cat a cat, if for example a "put any ethnic case you want here" commit a bad thing i will say that it's bad , the same applie to all countrie. Of course , concerning people and countrie I have to be cautious to not unconscially fall in stereotype. Stereotype is a natural way of constructing our feelings, i mean our brain is a stereotype maker : we saw some examples of a thing and then we conclude a general conclusion on the subject, each time that we encounter the subject, we do not repeat all the process that have lead us to the former conclusion. We need stereotype in order to elaborate our thinkings, but we must know their limits and their dangers.
PS : Zarathustra : thanks for this courageous contribution to these boards.
No that not what i was saying. Anti semitism exist in France as it exist in many other countries, anti-semitism is not specific to europe. I have no excuse for anti-semitism, but i do not like the israeli propenganda saying that if europe does not share the opinions of Israel it's because europe is anti-semit. The israeli have naturally the right to have a different opinion, but they should place the debate on a higher level. In nearly all governements there is jew ministers in france : a perfect example of antisemitism. Our president Jacques Chirac have said in many occasions that anti-semitism has no excuses.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Europe has a particular legacy of anti-Semitism. I won't say it doesn't exist in the U.S. but it certainly doesn't in the way it has in Europe. And much of the rhetoric coming Arab world is indistinguishable from what was heard in NAZI Germany in the 30's. Europeans can't look the other way while this happens and expect to not get called on it. The debate will be on a higher level when Europeans aren't suggesting that a Nobel Prize that was warded to Rabin be revoked (but not the one that was awarded to Arafat) when synagogues aren't burned in France, when Israel isn't subjected to boycots (what boycotts are being placed on the Arab world?) and when Europeans are repulsed by the hateful rhetoric that comes from the Arab world regarding the Jews.
Anti-semetism was actually quite common in the US (still is in many places). . . and in places, it was very large scale and open such as in parts of Illinois before the war. It is really only after WW2 and with the rise of a general awareness of tolerance that racism in general and anti-semitism are thought of (almost) universally as unacceptable. There have always been large areas of the US that have been quite hospitable to Jews, blacks Asians and other non-European peoples, but these were not really integrated into the "American" image of "America" until civil rights became an open issue.
examples: DW Griffiths "Birth Of A Nation" and a personal example: a friend of a friend owns an old delapidated resort building near the Catskills, we stayed there a night and in all of the stuff that has been laying around the place for years we found correspondences to the old resort's owners. when we looked through them there were a large number that aksed overtly racist questions with regard to whether or not jews were allowed to visit.. as they had aversions to them . . . there were many such letters. Also, there were old 78 records and many of them had overtly racist songs about "darkies" etc....(its funny because I later saw the william H Macy movie, with Laura Dern (title?) written by Arthur Miller that has an anti-semitic resort in it, 1940-ish, and it rang true from experience)
in other words, if you look, its really relatively recently that the US has pulled its head out of its racist as$ and truly made some strives towards a multi-ethnic culture without exclusion.
Also, this whole discussion is pretty stupid . . . the people who are railing against Europe and think that "all of Europe" hates the US clearly have some kind of ultra simplistic agenda on their minds . . .an agenda that makes them see the world in the depth of a propaganda poster --flat & 2D.
Powerdoc has been the voice of poise and equanimity when dealing with a stubborn, pugnacious, arrogant, opinionated, ugly-American . . . one that would almost justify the cliched image of Americans that unfortunately does have a large hold on the imaginations of many Europeans (for good reasons?)
Also it amazes me that a voice as reasoned as Zarathustra's can be so blithely overlooked
\\
As for the French revolution and its legacy of communism....LOL. that's silly and biased. The revolution was against royalists and was inspired not a little by the American revolution . . . sure it was hijacked for a time by extremists and eventually by an emperor . . . but it was a major step in the direction of democracy for Europe . . . if you read too many conservative historian/sensationalist journalists you end up overlooking obviouse perspectives.
Comments
How stupid can you get?! Just read again what you're accusing each-other of?!
This makes just so much sense...
Why don't [some of] you debate in a constructive way, this is just disgusting.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[edit: 'all of you' became 'some of you', I just read Anders' post, sorry...]
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Iemandkoffie? ]</p>
<strong>
Man, I dont ushualy agree with Scott, but he hit the nail on the head with this one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry but except one thread in apple outsider about the axis evil i do not make criticism against US. In this thread there is no line of critics about us. I think that too many people here think automatically when a thread is made by un european that it is automatically against US. Sorry but it's a stereotype. If each time i made a post someone deform it then no discussion will be possible.
Concerning **** in France, i have made several posts denounciating it, the sunshine does not raise out of my ass.
<strong>We just had our annual cross european song contest.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And we had absolutely nothing to do with Eurovision, Mumbo Jumbo.
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: timortis ]</p>
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
<strong>Incredible...
How stupid can you get?! Just read again what you're accusing each-other of?!
This makes just so much sense...
Why don't [some of] you debate in a constructive way, this is just disgusting.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[edit: 'all of you' became 'some of you', I just read Anders' post, sorry...]
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Iemandkoffie? ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Okay... talkin' about constructive... forgive me, I just got a little pissed off.
- europe is anti american
- europe is anti semit
- the muslims are a lame culture
- Liberal are do-gooders
<strong>
Not relevant
Idem
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Iemandkoffie? ]</p>
<strong>re: What's with US vs. Europe?
I didn't come up with this but I don't remember where I heard or read it. I agree with it, though. The U.S. is religious, miltarily robust, and nationalistic in it's world-view. Europe is secular, militarily weak and post-nationalistic in it's world-view. That's basically the root of the conflict between Europe and the U.S.
re: scott's article
Powerdoc, anti-Semitism also predates the founding of the Jewish state. You seem to be suggesting that anti-Semitism is specifically linked to the policies that Israel pursues. In a way similar to the way that Munbo Jumbo attempts to excuse anti-Americanism you come close to excusing anti-Semitism.
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
No that not what i was saying. Anti semitism exist in France as it exist in many other countries, anti-semitism is not specific to europe. I have no excuse for anti-semitism, but i do not like the israeli propenganda saying that if europe does not share the opinions of Israel it's because europe is anti-semit. The israeli have naturally the right to have a different opinion, but they should place the debate on a higher level. In nearly all governements there is jew ministers in france : a perfect example of antisemitism. Our president Jacques Chirac have said in many occasions that anti-semitism has no excuses.
<strong>
And we had absolutely nothing to do with Eurovision, Mumbo Jumbo.
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: timortis ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good point well made. The moral high ground is yours.
As an American, please accept my apology on the behalf of all Americans, for David Hasselhof.............
<strong>
Man, I dont ushualy agree with Scott, but he hit the nail on the head with this one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, I can't find fault in anything Scott wrote on this topic. Europe needs to look at itself in the mirror before trying to analyze America's faults. It seems as if the entire continent is screaming out for psychiatric help. Please find it, somehow.................................
<strong>And while I'm at it, America was founded on continent-wide genocide and built by slavery. So don't get all moral with me, sonny jim!
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Mumbo Jumbo ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
America was founded by Europeans (English, Spanish, French), so that point isn't a good one. Incidientally there was no genocide here-the closest you could come to was the actions taken by the Spanish against Indians in South America. Slavery was a world-wide phenomenon, although there is no excuse for it by anyone.......................
<strong>Now Scott here a list of your classical statements :
- europe is anti american</strong><hr></blockquote>
On average, yup.
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>- europe is anti semit</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yup. In the US when there are Klan rallies US citizens show up to shut the clan down. When Jews are attacked in France your Prime Minister tells the Jews to shut up lest they be attacked again. Also don't forget your recent history of killing 6 million Jews.
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>- the muslims are a lame culture</strong><hr></blockquote>
How can anyone not think it's lame. Little respect for human rights. Little respect for individual rights. Little tolerance for alternate ideas. Almost no religious tolerance. Women are treated like **** . No representative government. No free press. Need I go on. Oh crap I told the truth.
The Arab/Muslim world is at a cross roads. They are 500 years behind the rest of the world and they would rather we join them than they join us.
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>- Liberal are do-gooders</strong><hr></blockquote>
They try at least. Too bad they are not good at it.
Are all Europeans supposed to be anti- Semites because some are? Are all Americans thoughtless or arrogant?
What we have in common surely is that at best we inherit a very mixed legacy. Can any of us truly be proud of ALL of the acts commited by our countries? Slavery, Genocide, Incitement, meddling in others affairs to suit our own ends....any country not guilty?
When someone takes the time to explain a different perspective about something you think you know, it might be good to think a little. I disagree with US policy towards Cuba. I am not anti-American. I disagree with the European Unions C.A.P..I am not anti-European.
What I find difficult to understand, particularly on such an open, international and privileged forum, is the attutude that any criticism = 'anti'.
Can't I disagree with ANY Israeli act without being an Anti - Semite? Can I agree with any US policy without being a war mongering capitalist?
I don't always agree with Israel. I'm not sure I agree with Zionism. I think the Israeli Army?s rules of engagement are not strict enough. But I don't condone slanderous lies about Israel, like powerdoc does. And if my president were to respond to anti-Semitic attacks by telling Jews to stay hidden I'd speak out against it.
Plus Europe?s track record is not good in this area and I see it happening over again. Blame the victim and then help the new Nazis load them on the train. Or in this case fund the arab/muslim terrorist that want to kill the jews this time around.
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: scott_h_phd ]</p>
Europeans don't feel, as a whole, that the embargo of Cuba should continue, but what you don't take into account is that there is a large and vocal group of Cuban Americans who are violently anit-Castro. They want him gone anyway they can do it. Most remember what Castro and his regime did to their families in Cuba and how they fled to the US for safety. Most Cuban Americans are Republicans, they vote as a block and are a major force in Florida. To become President and stay President you really need to win Florida. George W. Bush is a republican and wants to be reelected thus he has to keep a hard line on Castro. Is it the right thing to do? I'm not sure. I have no great love for Castro and I think Cuba would be better off without him and it's a shame his people have to suffer though. But it's the way it is. You might not like the reason, but there are reasons for it. Like every country America has to please its people first. We've always been an inward looking people, perhaps more than other nations, we have a different culture and a different political system and political culture too. We should do a better job of working with other nations and think before we act, but it's hard to escape your history and culture. Most can't do it. The problem is when America acts we really act due to our power and size. We all have the right to disagree, but just because you don't agree doesn't mean their aren't valid reasons.
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: imacFP ]</p>
<strong>You make good points, Zarathustra, but one thing you said points out a classic problem. We don't take into account all the facts or see it from the other sides point of view and the example of that is Cuba.
Europeans don't feel, as a whole, that the embargo of Cuba should continue, but what you don't take into account is that there is a large and vocal group of Cuban Americans who are violently anit-Castro. ...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just to be fair they are not "violently anti-Castro". If they were that would mean that they used violence. But they have not. They use the political process within their country to get the leaders to ..... Unlike the terrorists which are violently anti-Semitic and anti-American.
<strong>
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by powerdoc:
Now Scott here a list of your classical statements :
- europe is anti american
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On average, yup.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by powerdoc:
- europe is anti semit
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yup. In the US when there are Klan rallies US citizens show up to shut the clan down. When Jews are attacked in France your Prime Minister tells the Jews to shut up lest they be attacked again. Also don't forget your recent history of killing 6 million Jews.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by powerdoc:
- the muslims are a lame culture
------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can anyone not think it's lame. Little respect for human rights. Little respect for individual rights. Little tolerance for alternate ideas. Almost no religious tolerance. Women are treated like **** . No representative government. No free press. Need I go on. Oh crap I told the truth.
The Arab/Muslim world is at a cross roads. They are 500 years behind the rest of the world and they would rather we join them than they join us.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by powerdoc:
- Liberal are do-gooders
------------------------------------------------------------------------
They try at least. Too bad they are not good at it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
</strong><hr></blockquote>
thanks for the confirmation
For european news at least french one, they are more balanced that you may think :
some day on the French radio of information : France Info i eard a journalist speakinf of Arafat : the journalist clearly stated that Arafat has a second army the Fatah wich commited many terrorisms acts.
He said also that there where support from 3 country : Saudi arabia (one of my favorite countrie in the world ...) , an another state (sorry but i forgot it) and IRAK, sadam give 15000 $ of compensation after each suicide attack.
Many palestinians see Arafat as a heroe, but he is totally lame and hypocryte. It will be difficult to have peace with him at the power. I do not appreciate Sharon my self (but i do not place him at the same level), but contrary to Palestine, Israel is a democratia and is leader will change in the future. I don't think that there can be peace with Arafat, but the only one who can remove him is the palestinians themselves. Many palestinians are too blinded by their hate agains Israel to see the true nature of Arafat. I have no doubt that with a better leader the situation will be much better.
I don't condome false info, i said it was different from a lie (semantical discussion), for me the bad report of the british press has more to do with bad journalism and a bad stereotype (israel opress palestine).
No , i well tell here, that i am against anti-semitism as well i am against racism. I am cautious about all form of stereotype, i prefer to jauge individuals rather groups. But i am against the hypocrisis of PC, that led to do not call a cat a cat, if for example a "put any ethnic case you want here" commit a bad thing i will say that it's bad , the same applie to all countrie. Of course , concerning people and countrie I have to be cautious to not unconscially fall in stereotype. Stereotype is a natural way of constructing our feelings, i mean our brain is a stereotype maker : we saw some examples of a thing and then we conclude a general conclusion on the subject, each time that we encounter the subject, we do not repeat all the process that have lead us to the former conclusion. We need stereotype in order to elaborate our thinkings, but we must know their limits and their dangers.
PS : Zarathustra : thanks for this courageous contribution to these boards.
[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
<strong>
No that not what i was saying. Anti semitism exist in France as it exist in many other countries, anti-semitism is not specific to europe. I have no excuse for anti-semitism, but i do not like the israeli propenganda saying that if europe does not share the opinions of Israel it's because europe is anti-semit. The israeli have naturally the right to have a different opinion, but they should place the debate on a higher level. In nearly all governements there is jew ministers in france : a perfect example of antisemitism. Our president Jacques Chirac have said in many occasions that anti-semitism has no excuses.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Europe has a particular legacy of anti-Semitism. I won't say it doesn't exist in the U.S. but it certainly doesn't in the way it has in Europe. And much of the rhetoric coming Arab world is indistinguishable from what was heard in NAZI Germany in the 30's. Europeans can't look the other way while this happens and expect to not get called on it. The debate will be on a higher level when Europeans aren't suggesting that a Nobel Prize that was warded to Rabin be revoked (but not the one that was awarded to Arafat) when synagogues aren't burned in France, when Israel isn't subjected to boycots (what boycotts are being placed on the Arab world?) and when Europeans are repulsed by the hateful rhetoric that comes from the Arab world regarding the Jews.
examples: DW Griffiths "Birth Of A Nation" and a personal example: a friend of a friend owns an old delapidated resort building near the Catskills, we stayed there a night and in all of the stuff that has been laying around the place for years we found correspondences to the old resort's owners. when we looked through them there were a large number that aksed overtly racist questions with regard to whether or not jews were allowed to visit.. as they had aversions to them . . . there were many such letters. Also, there were old 78 records and many of them had overtly racist songs about "darkies" etc....(its funny because I later saw the william H Macy movie, with Laura Dern (title?) written by Arthur Miller that has an anti-semitic resort in it, 1940-ish, and it rang true from experience)
in other words, if you look, its really relatively recently that the US has pulled its head out of its racist as$ and truly made some strives towards a multi-ethnic culture without exclusion.
Also, this whole discussion is pretty stupid . . . the people who are railing against Europe and think that "all of Europe" hates the US clearly have some kind of ultra simplistic agenda on their minds . . .an agenda that makes them see the world in the depth of a propaganda poster --flat & 2D.
Powerdoc has been the voice of poise and equanimity when dealing with a stubborn, pugnacious, arrogant, opinionated, ugly-American . . . one that would almost justify the cliched image of Americans that unfortunately does have a large hold on the imaginations of many Europeans (for good reasons?)
Also it amazes me that a voice as reasoned as Zarathustra's can be so blithely overlooked
\\
As for the French revolution and its legacy of communism....LOL. that's silly and biased. The revolution was against royalists and was inspired not a little by the American revolution . . . sure it was hijacked for a time by extremists and eventually by an emperor . . . but it was a major step in the direction of democracy for Europe . . . if you read too many conservative historian/sensationalist journalists you end up overlooking obviouse perspectives.