Powerdoc has been the voice of poise and equanimity when dealing with a stubborn, pugnacious, arrogant, opinionated, ugly-American . . . one that would almost justify the cliched image of Americans that unfortunately does have a large hold on the imaginations of many Europeans (for good reasons?)/QB]<hr></blockquote>
HA! Actually he's a typical European that condones the hatred of Jews printed in his own papers. He's part of the problem not part of the solution.
did I overlook something? It seems that he merely is not enthusiastically embracing everything Sharon does . . . and may be thinking about the rights of Palastinians??
Maybe you can pinpoint his anti-semitic statements... I must have missed them.
Also, this whole discussion is pretty stupid . . . the people who are railing against Europe and think that "all of Europe" hates the US clearly have some kind of ultra simplistic agenda on their minds . . .an agenda that makes them see the world in the depth of a propaganda poster --flat & 2D.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think all of Europe hates America but there is simply is no question that there is a significant amount of anti-Americanism in Europe. Pretending otherwise doesn't add any dimensions to the picture.
[quote]<strong>As for the French revolution and its legacy of communism....LOL. that's silly and biased. The revolution was against royalists and was inspired not a little by the American revolution . . . sure it was hijacked for a time by extremists and eventually by an emperor . . . but it was a major step in the direction of democracy for Europe . . . if you read too many conservative historian/sensationalist journalists you end up overlooking obviouse perspectives.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nothing silly or biased about it. Bret Stephens isn't the first to make the connection. Yes, it was inspired by the American Revolution but the differences between the two are clearly crucial.
Bret Stephens is a bloody journalist....writing for teh Jerusalem Post.... which, I admit I have not read much of, but, I can bet that it has a political perspective...perhaps one of stated nuetrality... but given its volatile environment, I imagine that he has a predictable position
considering that fact then it is obviouse that he will take instances out of historical context to make his point about whatever perspective he chooses . . .
and judging by what's said here he is making an equation:
French revolution had Jacobites and guillotines which equals a leftist foundation
Leftist equals Anti-American
Anti-American=anti-Israel
Anti-Israel=ant-semitic
therefore
French revolution = Anti-Semitic . . . voila, it's logic.
By the way, this guy IS NOT a historian... he is a political opinion journalist with a very conservative agenda . . . try reading some real history
I have a feeling anti-semites hate Muslims now more than Jews. Even LePen seems to have forgotten how much he hates Jews. ......................................
<strong>Bret Stephens is a bloody journalist....writing for teh Jerusalem Post.... which, I admit I have not read much of, but, I can bet that it has a political perspective...</strong><hr></blockquote>
And so you automatically discount everything he writes? Like I said he isn't the only one to make the connection. In his article he quotes a professor from Williams College. Does the fact that Stephens writes for the Jerusalem Post invalidate her observations as well? If so, <a href="http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/6786.html"; target="_blank">here's</a> something else to chew over.
"And so you automatically discount everything he writes?"
Not discount, contextualise. Are our Jews anti-semites because they live in Europe? Do U.S. Muslims have a "Lame" culture as stated in this thread? Europe is far from Homogeneous, we have racists sure..but not in the wholesale way characterised so often in discussions here. We have at least as many races in Europe as there are in the US and with the added complication of national divisions. Some of us think that these differences, of perspective, experience and heritage actually enrich rather than detract from what we share. Though physically a continent, Europe is politically and culturally much more a concept than a reality. Our borders are about to expand to encompass Eastern Europe. How far can that go? Will we see Russia join the E.U?
I don't recognise the, U.S hating, sliding towards Nazism Europe described in this thread. (Don't forget the Jews that were killed by the Nazis were Europeans not Israelis and it was not them alone who suffered) Please don't mistake criticism for hatred or lack of understanding. If you point out my countries faults often I'll have to agree. The U.S may get more criticism than most but that is largly because there is nowhere on Earth that U.S actions are not felt. U.S Hegemony makes your every move significant. Those with little or no power may only complain.
Really now. When pfflam wrote this, "then it is obviouse that he will take instances out of historical context to make his point about whatever perspective he chooses" he was just contextualizing. Thanks for the clarification.
[quote]<strong>... Are our Jews anti-semites because they live in Europe? Do U.S. Muslims have a "Lame" culture as stated in this thread? Europe is far from Homogeneous, we have racists sure..but not in the wholesale way characterised so often in discussions here. We have at least as many races in Europe as there are in the US and with the added complication of national divisions. Some of us think that these differences, of perspective, experience and heritage actually enrich rather than detract from what we share. Though physically a continent, Europe is politically and culturally much more a concept than a reality. Our borders are about to expand to encompass Eastern Europe. How far can that go? Will we see Russia join the E.U?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was responding to pfflam about the piece by Bret Stephens. None of this was in that article. All of this is germane to the larger discussion in this thread but you chose to respond to me specifically and your response doesn't address what I was writing about.
I don't know what the big anti-America/anti-Europe debate is all about. America is a culture mix with many European influences. You can see it in early American architecture, literature, ethnicity. The only other continent with more influence is Africa.
did I overlook something? It seems that he merely is not enthusiastically embracing everything Sharon does . . . and may be thinking about the rights of Palastinians??
Maybe you can pinpoint his anti-semitic statements... I must have missed them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks.
I have more chances to become a golf pro rather than to make Scott change his mind only one time in his life.
<strong>I have a feeling anti-semites hate Muslims now more than Jews. Even LePen seems to have forgotten how much he hates Jews. ......................................</strong><hr></blockquote>
Basically you will find antisemit guy in France in two groups :
- the muslim who hate jews (those who have attack a synagogue and some schools ), because they are not able to differenciate israel foreign policy from an ethnic appartenance.
- the typical old narrow minded generation native french guy who buy craps, like the conspiracy theory including , jews, commies and freemasons (you know the famous : world is run by three lobby ...). In this case it's true , those people hate more muslim than jews, and paradoxaly these peoples are one of the strongest support of Israel "the jews know how to deal with muslims , let them wipe the muslim out of the universe"
For Le Pen, this guy would said that dogs make cats if it can bring him some votes. It's quite funny to note that even muslims have vote for him during the last presidential elections.
<strong>I don't know what the big anti-America/anti-Europe debate is all about. America is a culture mix with many European influences. You can see it in early American architecture, literature, ethnicity. The only other continent with more influence is Africa.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right Outsider these debate is ridiculous.
Notice I didn't say that powedoc said/wrote/retold anything anti-semetic. Just that when he read/hears it he has nothing to say about it.
Me? I almost went off on a woman I don't know for repeating the "400 jews didn't show up for work at the WTC on 9-11" lie. Another anti-semetic rumor that people repeat. Someone else challenged her on it and it turned out to be her husband.
<strong>Notice I didn't say that powedoc said/wrote/retold anything anti-semetic. Just that when he read/hears it he has nothing to say about it.
Me? I almost went off on a woman I don't know for repeating the "400 jews didn't show up for work at the WTC on 9-11" lie. Another anti-semetic rumor that people repeat. Someone else challenged her on it and it turned out to be her husband.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you are interested Scott, and for what it worth, the only manifestaton i participate in my entire life was a manisfestation against anti-semitism twelve years ago, when a jew cimetery was profanate. At the moment people thinked that the right winged have commit that crime. In fact the crime was commit by Satanic teenager. Anyway that manifestation was a good thing : it showed that the majority of the population was against anti-semitism.
It's not because we have a semantical discussion about the Jenins report of the european press and especially the british one (that i don't read i must admit) where you said it was a liar and i said it was just bad journalism (and if my memory is correct, Rashumon say it was rather an error than a purpose lie) , that i am amorphous on the subject.
>Not discount, contextualise. Are our Jews anti-semites because they live in Europe? Do U.S. Muslims have a "Lame" culture as stated in this thread? Europe is far from Homogeneous, we have racists sure..but not in the wholesale way characterised so often in discussions here. We have at least as many races in Europe as there are in the US and with the added complication of national divisions. Some of us think that these differences, of perspective, experience and heritage actually enrich rather than detract from what we share. Though physically a continent, Europe is politically and culturally much more a concept than a reality. Our borders are about to expand to encompass Eastern Europe. How far can that go? Will we see Russia join the E.U?>
When folks migrate to the US, there is a unwritten rule to assimilate, to put nationality and religion behind and become a new person, an American. That is why Greeks and Turks live side by dise peacefully, Israeli-Americans and palestinian-Americans aren't violent towards each other. And so on and so on. Its a different dynamic here. I must also point out that though there are plenty of antisemites here, the govmnt does not tolerate it, and will act as soon as any act of violence or destruction takes place. The govmnt acted before any Mosques or Muslims could be attacked after Sep11th also. Europe doesn't seem too anxious to stop anti-semitic incidents and seem lax in enforcing a sense of togetherness that is found in the US. JMHO.............................
[quote] When folks migrate to the US, there is a unwritten rule to assimilate, to put nationality and religion behind and become a new person, an American. <hr></blockquote>
that is simply not true: look at the Amish etc..... I think the unwritten rule is when you move to the states you shall not be coerced into needlessly assimimilating.... particularly out of fear
that is simply not true: look at the Amish etc..... I think the unwritten rule is when you move to the states you shall not be coerced into needlessly assimimilating.... particularly out of fear</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Amish are a rare exception. Assimilating is not needless. If an immigrant wants to succeed and wants their children to succeed some assimilation is necessary. Not out of fear, out of wanting to improve their lives and fully become a part of their new nation............................................ ...
The point of tolerance as a written rule is that it should allow for people to keep their culture . . . and the Amish are not the only ones . .. . maybe out in suberbia, but I see many cultures that are mixed together in daily life and manage to maintain their strong sense of themselves, clothing, customs etc . . . for example, here in Pittsburgh there is a very large Orthodox Jewish community . . . In San Francisco there is a large Chinese community . . . I worked at a cafe in SF and I met a woman who was in her forties . . . it wasn't till she was over 25 that she started to learn english.... and she lived in the city, legally, all of her life. . . . and there are other examples......
Assimilation doesn't mean you completely forget about your past culture. But to live in a new society you need to adapt to your new country's culture. Its common sense................................
Comments
[QB]
Powerdoc has been the voice of poise and equanimity when dealing with a stubborn, pugnacious, arrogant, opinionated, ugly-American . . . one that would almost justify the cliched image of Americans that unfortunately does have a large hold on the imaginations of many Europeans (for good reasons?)/QB]<hr></blockquote>
HA! Actually he's a typical European that condones the hatred of Jews printed in his own papers. He's part of the problem not part of the solution.
Time for a reality check world.
did I overlook something? It seems that he merely is not enthusiastically embracing everything Sharon does . . . and may be thinking about the rights of Palastinians??
Maybe you can pinpoint his anti-semitic statements... I must have missed them.
<strong>
Also, this whole discussion is pretty stupid . . . the people who are railing against Europe and think that "all of Europe" hates the US clearly have some kind of ultra simplistic agenda on their minds . . .an agenda that makes them see the world in the depth of a propaganda poster --flat & 2D.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think all of Europe hates America but there is simply is no question that there is a significant amount of anti-Americanism in Europe. Pretending otherwise doesn't add any dimensions to the picture.
[quote]<strong>As for the French revolution and its legacy of communism....LOL. that's silly and biased. The revolution was against royalists and was inspired not a little by the American revolution . . . sure it was hijacked for a time by extremists and eventually by an emperor . . . but it was a major step in the direction of democracy for Europe . . . if you read too many conservative historian/sensationalist journalists you end up overlooking obviouse perspectives.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nothing silly or biased about it. Bret Stephens isn't the first to make the connection. Yes, it was inspired by the American Revolution but the differences between the two are clearly crucial.
considering that fact then it is obviouse that he will take instances out of historical context to make his point about whatever perspective he chooses . . .
and judging by what's said here he is making an equation:
French revolution had Jacobites and guillotines which equals a leftist foundation
Leftist equals Anti-American
Anti-American=anti-Israel
Anti-Israel=ant-semitic
therefore
French revolution = Anti-Semitic . . . voila, it's logic.
By the way, this guy IS NOT a historian... he is a political opinion journalist with a very conservative agenda . . . try reading some real history
[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
<strong>Bret Stephens is a bloody journalist....writing for teh Jerusalem Post.... which, I admit I have not read much of, but, I can bet that it has a political perspective...</strong><hr></blockquote>
And so you automatically discount everything he writes? Like I said he isn't the only one to make the connection. In his article he quotes a professor from Williams College. Does the fact that Stephens writes for the Jerusalem Post invalidate her observations as well? If so, <a href="http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/6786.html"; target="_blank">here's</a> something else to chew over.
[QB]
"And so you automatically discount everything he writes?"
Not discount, contextualise. Are our Jews anti-semites because they live in Europe? Do U.S. Muslims have a "Lame" culture as stated in this thread? Europe is far from Homogeneous, we have racists sure..but not in the wholesale way characterised so often in discussions here. We have at least as many races in Europe as there are in the US and with the added complication of national divisions. Some of us think that these differences, of perspective, experience and heritage actually enrich rather than detract from what we share. Though physically a continent, Europe is politically and culturally much more a concept than a reality. Our borders are about to expand to encompass Eastern Europe. How far can that go? Will we see Russia join the E.U?
I don't recognise the, U.S hating, sliding towards Nazism Europe described in this thread. (Don't forget the Jews that were killed by the Nazis were Europeans not Israelis and it was not them alone who suffered) Please don't mistake criticism for hatred or lack of understanding. If you point out my countries faults often I'll have to agree. The U.S may get more criticism than most but that is largly because there is nowhere on Earth that U.S actions are not felt. U.S Hegemony makes your every move significant. Those with little or no power may only complain.
<strong>Not discount, contextualise... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Really now. When pfflam wrote this, "then it is obviouse that he will take instances out of historical context to make his point about whatever perspective he chooses" he was just contextualizing. Thanks for the clarification.
[quote]<strong>... Are our Jews anti-semites because they live in Europe? Do U.S. Muslims have a "Lame" culture as stated in this thread? Europe is far from Homogeneous, we have racists sure..but not in the wholesale way characterised so often in discussions here. We have at least as many races in Europe as there are in the US and with the added complication of national divisions. Some of us think that these differences, of perspective, experience and heritage actually enrich rather than detract from what we share. Though physically a continent, Europe is politically and culturally much more a concept than a reality. Our borders are about to expand to encompass Eastern Europe. How far can that go? Will we see Russia join the E.U?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was responding to pfflam about the piece by Bret Stephens. None of this was in that article. All of this is germane to the larger discussion in this thread but you chose to respond to me specifically and your response doesn't address what I was writing about.
[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>
<strong>I don't see where he says that at all?!!
did I overlook something? It seems that he merely is not enthusiastically embracing everything Sharon does . . . and may be thinking about the rights of Palastinians??
Maybe you can pinpoint his anti-semitic statements... I must have missed them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks.
I have more chances to become a golf pro rather than to make Scott change his mind only one time in his life.
<strong>I have a feeling anti-semites hate Muslims now more than Jews. Even LePen seems to have forgotten how much he hates Jews. ......................................</strong><hr></blockquote>
Basically you will find antisemit guy in France in two groups :
- the muslim who hate jews (those who have attack a synagogue and some schools ), because they are not able to differenciate israel foreign policy from an ethnic appartenance.
- the typical old narrow minded generation native french guy who buy craps, like the conspiracy theory including , jews, commies and freemasons (you know the famous : world is run by three lobby ...). In this case it's true , those people hate more muslim than jews, and paradoxaly these peoples are one of the strongest support of Israel "the jews know how to deal with muslims , let them wipe the muslim out of the universe"
For Le Pen, this guy would said that dogs make cats if it can bring him some votes. It's quite funny to note that even muslims have vote for him during the last presidential elections.
[ 06-03-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
<strong>I don't know what the big anti-America/anti-Europe debate is all about. America is a culture mix with many European influences. You can see it in early American architecture, literature, ethnicity. The only other continent with more influence is Africa.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right Outsider these debate is ridiculous.
Me? I almost went off on a woman I don't know for repeating the "400 jews didn't show up for work at the WTC on 9-11" lie. Another anti-semetic rumor that people repeat. Someone else challenged her on it and it turned out to be her husband.
<strong>Notice I didn't say that powedoc said/wrote/retold anything anti-semetic. Just that when he read/hears it he has nothing to say about it.
Me? I almost went off on a woman I don't know for repeating the "400 jews didn't show up for work at the WTC on 9-11" lie. Another anti-semetic rumor that people repeat. Someone else challenged her on it and it turned out to be her husband.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you are interested Scott, and for what it worth, the only manifestaton i participate in my entire life was a manisfestation against anti-semitism twelve years ago, when a jew cimetery was profanate. At the moment people thinked that the right winged have commit that crime. In fact the crime was commit by Satanic teenager. Anyway that manifestation was a good thing : it showed that the majority of the population was against anti-semitism.
It's not because we have a semantical discussion about the Jenins report of the european press and especially the british one (that i don't read i must admit) where you said it was a liar and i said it was just bad journalism (and if my memory is correct, Rashumon say it was rather an error than a purpose lie) , that i am amorphous on the subject.
>Not discount, contextualise. Are our Jews anti-semites because they live in Europe? Do U.S. Muslims have a "Lame" culture as stated in this thread? Europe is far from Homogeneous, we have racists sure..but not in the wholesale way characterised so often in discussions here. We have at least as many races in Europe as there are in the US and with the added complication of national divisions. Some of us think that these differences, of perspective, experience and heritage actually enrich rather than detract from what we share. Though physically a continent, Europe is politically and culturally much more a concept than a reality. Our borders are about to expand to encompass Eastern Europe. How far can that go? Will we see Russia join the E.U?>
When folks migrate to the US, there is a unwritten rule to assimilate, to put nationality and religion behind and become a new person, an American. That is why Greeks and Turks live side by dise peacefully, Israeli-Americans and palestinian-Americans aren't violent towards each other. And so on and so on. Its a different dynamic here. I must also point out that though there are plenty of antisemites here, the govmnt does not tolerate it, and will act as soon as any act of violence or destruction takes place. The govmnt acted before any Mosques or Muslims could be attacked after Sep11th also. Europe doesn't seem too anxious to stop anti-semitic incidents and seem lax in enforcing a sense of togetherness that is found in the US. JMHO.............................
that is simply not true: look at the Amish etc..... I think the unwritten rule is when you move to the states you shall not be coerced into needlessly assimimilating.... particularly out of fear
<strong>
that is simply not true: look at the Amish etc..... I think the unwritten rule is when you move to the states you shall not be coerced into needlessly assimimilating.... particularly out of fear</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Amish are a rare exception. Assimilating is not needless. If an immigrant wants to succeed and wants their children to succeed some assimilation is necessary. Not out of fear, out of wanting to improve their lives and fully become a part of their new nation............................................ ...
[ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>